i had a blast ths past weekend and the previous beta weekend on my gfs beta . So i love tor.
The biggest thing isnt u cant criticize tor . go for it if u want we dont have to agree with u though. We also dont have to treat the lies people spout as truth when we know thye are lies.
If u think im gonna let people tell lies about this game and not stand up and defend it well u are naive.
Also im tired of the haters are smart/complicated gamers who know what a good game is but fanbois are simple minded bafoons who wouldnt knwo a good game if they were forced to play it opinon.
Its downright insulting and the fact the peope spouting this view are shocked others get mad or they get warnings or banned for that opinion shocks me.
U dont have to like tor it would be naive of anybody to think everyone out there loves any game ever made. Every game ever made even gw 2, secret world and games made in 100 yrs will have people who just dont enjoy them thats fine.
its how u criticize that gets people riled up. I have read negative reviews that ive respected and while i didnt agree with them i admired the guy for telling it as he saw it and not resorting to lies to get there point across . Its the other ones that bother me
the ones who post lies about he game and who put down the people who enjoyed the game that get to me. To bad the negative guys who treat it as there opinion and ot fact are few and far between
Its also annoying that people think they have to post 10 negative threads everytime they post an anit tor rant somewhere.
After many disappointing hours of game play during this weekend's SWTOR Beta, I expected to read a plethora of scathing reviews this morning. I was sadly disappointed.
So you're upset that not everyone hated the game as much as you? That's mature.
I was thinking the same thing. That truly is the statement of a hater. This so-called review just seems to be another attempt at trolling...
Agree with much of your post and well written. Thank you.
A couple points you made that I really really agree with:
Throughout my time in SWTOR I felt confined and closterphobic. Not the sense of wonder and awe you get from most new MMOs ( what is over the horizon or around that corner etc ).
I think the graphics are pretty bad in fact. WoW looks better to me although graphics are subjective and I completely agree much has been done in games ( have not tried tanks ) to use textures and POV to give that "awe" feeling.
Swtor just doesn't but I was not suprised. bioware is EA afterall.
I've got to be honest I was absolutely 100% certain I would find no enjoyment in SWTOR. I finally got a beta key for this weekend and said what the hell. Within 10 minutes of playing I decided to purchase. To me it was that good. It's not that there's anything amazingly innovative about the game. It's simply the presentation of familiar elements in a superior fashion. The strongest example of this IMO is questing. The voice overs and cut scenes (which prior to playing I didn't give 2 shits about) actually made what is ordinarily an absolutely boring experience one that immediately grabbed and held my attention.
I also thought the graphics would be abyssmal but the game actually looked quite nice even on my laptop that's running a Nividia 9600M (maybe equivalent to the PC's 8800). So there you have it - 100% sure I was not going to buy this title - 5 minutes in game and I've done a 180.
*Just to clarify I did not preorder and do not plan to play at launch as I've grown to dislike MMO launches, but I will definitely be purchasing the title in the future. Also beta'ing the greatest game I've ever played Super Monday Night Combat is eating up all my time.
Those are almost my own thoughts in the lead up to SWTOR. Following the game from afar I'd never got over hyped about SWTOR. I'd found the classes meh, the races meh and the thought of playing the game meh. The only thing I ever did find intruiging was Bioware's insistence on a story and all the voice acting they were doing.
I started hearing a bit more about the game a month or so ago and it had started to take my fancy a bit more. I still wasn't convinced though and signed up to this weekend's beta not having preordered and not even sure I would end up playing.
I really liked it though. It's actually made me appeciate that I should go in to a game open minded. I now can't wait for the 15th because I've preordered to get in early.
After many disappointing hours of game play during this weekend's SWTOR Beta, I expected to read a plethora of scathing reviews this morning. I was sadly disappointed.
I stopped reading after this cause I can pretty much guess what that huge wall of text said.
I'll just say, that you didn;t see a plethora of scathing reviews because a lot of people love this type of game. SWTOR is really fun to play if you like themeparks and good RP in a RPG.
My question is why "disappointed"? I mean just like not everyone has to like the same game as me, everyone doesn't have to hate the same games as me.
I loved the game. I know some people that absolutely hate teh game. But I can say this. There is a good chunk of people on this world that love this game and SWTOR will be successful..........
I love how people register to post these massive wall of texts expecting that someone will actually read them.
It's assumed most people who bother to go to a forum can read.
It's also very hard to break it up adequately on mmorpg.com. I often find it next to impossible to make posts look easier to read on this site. I think it's the white text on black. I wrote a very long review of my beta time and it got 70 odd views but no replies (last I looked). I can justa ssume that people stopped reading. I tried to break it up and could have added small pictures like a front page article would do. But I figured it was headed and broken up in to sections enough.
Sadly the world has become lazy and against reading anything longer than a limerick.
Sadly this seems to be the way of the world if u want a game with sand box features large landscapes involveing play deep immersion in the environs,you pretty much are gonna be looking for a while i tried SWTOR and against my expectations i actually enjoyed it,even the WOW'ish game play which i detest was juxtersposed by the combat and the companion was very well implemented,of course the immersion from the Story helps but will prob drive me nuts after multiple plays.
No doubt Bioware took the if it aint broke don't fix it route and made a technically solid game as i had not one CTD,loss of server over 3 days solid play this game will grow and with there finances the ex-pacs could really add to the game graphically i expect this beta is a placeholder before they enhance the graphics as many expect the game will be the best thing since sliced bread.
I will see how it goes but Vanguard will tide me over but i may be swayed by the force as Bioware have deep pockets and the know how and vision to create something special even if it's not The star wars vision of many fans out there.
Op,Just saw your long post read a bit but mainly went of your title and too tired for anything more than a semi-rant.
Sadly this seems to be the way of the world if u want a game with sand box features large landscapes involveing play deep immersion in the environs,you pretty much are gonna be looking for a while i tried SWTOR and against my expectations i actually enjoyed it,even the WOW'ish game play which i detest was juxtersposed by the combat and the companion was very well implemented,of course the immersion from the Story helps but will prob drive me nuts after multiple plays.
No doubt Bioware took the if it aint broke don't fix it route and made a technically solid game as i had not one CTD,loss of server over 3 days solid play this game will grow and with there finances the ex-pacs could really add to the game graphically i expect this beta is a placeholder before they enhance the graphics as many expect the game will be the best thing since sliced bread.
I will see how it goes but Vanguard will tide me over but i may be swayed by the force as Bioware have deep pockets and the know how and vision to create something special even if it's not The star wars vision of many fans out there.
Theres already rumblings that they are adding major content already with the "go-live" build.
played the beta weekend massively. was it fun, yeah. was it pretty, yeah. Told a good story, and the voice acting was refreshing, along with the moral light/dark. Was it enough to get me to sub, nope. Themepark, with the world feeling smaller than even wow. point n click FPS for ranged, and mash the button for melee. Felt like a single player game that you 'can' group with. Might play it if FTP, but not enough in the crafting dept. lacking in the PvP dept. The whole weekend I never even saw the other side. Fresh pretty face and the same old worn out components and mechanics.
I enjoy the chance to create constructive feedback for the Devs. This morning as I read through ppl's first impressions of the beta build, I was dissapointed that more people hadnt shared in this desire. I believe such discourse is necessary to better the gaming community. Sometimes criticism and harsh language is required to open eyes. This was one of those cases. Instead of being satisfied with any old thing that is rolled out, more people should shout their desires, and see to it that those grievances have been addressed before comitting any allegiance or loyalty. I am happy to hear that your level of sophistication nullifies the need for such an outlet. Remember that insanity is continuing to do the exact same thing again and again, while expecting different results.
Basically, we should complain to get what we want? Sure we could do that, but why diminish something we enjoyed playing. I've been in beta for many months, it was clear what people were asking for, and a lot of it didn't come from unrealistic expectations, which I felt a number of your points were.
These are things that you wanted to see, not necessarily what others wanted. You mention MW3... yet MW3 is just the same old rehash of every war shooter known to man.
BioWare had a specific vision on what they wanted to create, my job as a tester was to provide feedback and bug reports on those features to get those features ready to ship. While my displeasure with things such as space combat was barely acknowledged and unchanged, little, modest tweaks were, all for the sake of getting the game in ship-ready condition.
You don't have to be satisfied with the game, you don't have to like it, or play it, but you'll be hurting yourself more than anyone else to have unrealistic expectations when playing ... well... any game. Wish for the stars, just don't expect them.
I disagree with this response more on principle than anything else, mostly because I don't enjoy being taken advantage of.
If we don't demand better from developers, they're going to give us exactly what they can get away with and nothing more (example: we've proven you can charge a subscription fee in tandem with additional microtransactions, this has become standard practice for many companies since - microtransaction content had previously been part of your subscription). We're not their friends, they're not in business to give us something fun to do: they're in business to make money. When bottom lining, you look for the most efficient and cost effective way to go about continuing to produce, and the most cost efficient way to keep a business running is to change absolutely nothing. So, unless people are bitching up a storm, raising hell for the people who actually make decisions in these companies, nothing ever changes and nothing ever gets fixed.
In regards to TOR and expectations, however, it was pretty easy to see what this game was, even miles down the track. It's not to say that I forgive them for making a game that I think is standard or mediocre in most ways, it's just that I knew what to expect before I started my bitching, and thusly also don't expect anything to come of it unless everyone else joins in.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
played the beta weekend massively. was it fun, yeah. was it pretty, yeah. Told a good story, and the voice acting was refreshing, along with the moral light/dark. Was it enough to get me to sub, nope. Themepark, with the world feeling smaller than even wow. point n click FPS for ranged, and mash the button for melee. Felt like a single player game that you 'can' group with. Might play it if FTP, but not enough in the crafting dept. lacking in the PvP dept. The whole weekend I never even saw the other side. Fresh pretty face and the same old worn out components and mechanics.
After many disappointing hours of game play during this weekend's SWTOR Beta, I expected to read a plethora of scathing reviews this morning. I was sadly disappointed.
I stopped reading after this cause I can pretty much guess what that huge wall of text said.
I'll just say, that you didn;t see a plethora of scathing reviews because a lot of people love this type of game. SWTOR is really fun to play if you like themeparks and good RP in a RPG.
My question is why "disappointed"? I mean just like not everyone has to like the same game as me, everyone doesn't have to hate the same games as me.
I loved the game. I know some people that absolutely hate teh game. But I can say this. There is a good chunk of people on this world that love this game and SWTOR will be successful..........
........Hope you're not disappointed.......
I think good RPers would strongly disagree with your assessment. There is little room for RP in TOR. In multiple choice storytelling where every answer you choose leads to the exact same outcome (except, evidently, for how your purchased gear will look) your role is written for you. It isn't role playing - it's role reading.
As for my take, I felt SWTOR turned out to be a much better game than I thought it would. I thought it would be terrible. Turns out, it's a rather sloppy game with some really good up-sides. Companions are cool. Voice acting is good and really does add a lot to the enjoyment of the story. The story itself is engaging and a lot of people will like it. I tend to think that people who like Star Wars and get into their class's story arch will greatly enjoy the game, for a few months at least. People who do not get engaged in the story-telling will find the game seriously lacking in every other measurable.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
I enjoy the chance to create constructive feedback for the Devs. This morning as I read through ppl's first impressions of the beta build, I was dissapointed that more people hadnt shared in this desire. I believe such discourse is necessary to better the gaming community. Sometimes criticism and harsh language is required to open eyes. This was one of those cases. Instead of being satisfied with any old thing that is rolled out, more people should shout their desires, and see to it that those grievances have been addressed before comitting any allegiance or loyalty. I am happy to hear that your level of sophistication nullifies the need for such an outlet. Remember that insanity is continuing to do the exact same thing again and again, while expecting different results.
Basically, we should complain to get what we want? Sure we could do that, but why diminish something we enjoyed playing. I've been in beta for many months, it was clear what people were asking for, and a lot of it didn't come from unrealistic expectations, which I felt a number of your points were.
These are things that you wanted to see, not necessarily what others wanted. You mention MW3... yet MW3 is just the same old rehash of every war shooter known to man.
BioWare had a specific vision on what they wanted to create, my job as a tester was to provide feedback and bug reports on those features to get those features ready to ship. While my displeasure with things such as space combat was barely acknowledged and unchanged, little, modest tweaks were, all for the sake of getting the game in ship-ready condition.
You don't have to be satisfied with the game, you don't have to like it, or play it, but you'll be hurting yourself more than anyone else to have unrealistic expectations when playing ... well... any game. Wish for the stars, just don't expect them.
I disagree with this response more on principle than anything else, mostly because I don't enjoy being taken advantage of.
If we don't demand better from developers, they're going to give us exactly what they can get away with and nothing more (example: we've proven you can charge a subscription fee in tandem with additional microtransactions, this has become standard practice for many companies since - microtransaction content had previously been part of your subscription). We're not their friends, they're not in business to give us something fun to do: they're in business to make money. When bottom lining, you look for the most efficient and cost effective way to go about continuing to produce, and the most cost efficient way to keep a business running is to change absolutely nothing. So, unless people are bitching up a storm, raising hell for the people who actually make decisions in these companies, nothing ever changes and nothing ever gets fixed.
In regards to TOR and expectations, however, it was pretty easy to see what this game was, even miles down the track. It's not to say that I forgive them for making a game that I think is standard or mediocre in most ways, it's just that I knew what to expect before I started my bitching, and thusly also don't expect anything to come of it unless everyone else joins in.
Demanding better doesn't mean demanding what you want only, as you'll never get it. People pretend theres unlimited budgets, and that game direction can turn on a dime, and thats just not possible. Not liking SWTOR because theres no sandbox gameplay is a really bad stance on what is otherwise an enjoyable themepark game. Not liking SWTOR because it has inherent similarities that many of the genres games do is again, complaining for complainings sake.
These things were likely never going to change. Fundamental design features don't get changed due to 1, or 5... or 100 people complaining about them, they get changed if and when they are a complete failure that detract from the entire game.
BioWare had some choices here, and its obvious they went with a safe bet. We can ask for much more, but expecting much more is pointless... the studio will only put out what it feels is right for the game. Hence, positive reactions feed that direction, and negative reactions end up creating a rift between gamers instead of forcing BioWare to change their direction.
Thats why I've been saying, people are focusing on the flaws of the game to profess their dislike of SWTOR... because it didn't provide some type of gameplay feature they personally wanted, but that doesn't mean the game is bad. It means the game is not for them. I guess its easier to push the blame on someone else than come to the realization that you don't have to like every game, even if its a popular or well received one. In that same avenue, complaining about it won't accomplish anything, other than tearing down something that was never meant for you in the first place.
Had there been a large negative response this conversation wouldn't be happening right now.
Demanding better doesn't mean demanding what you want only, as you'll never get it. People pretend theres unlimited budgets, and that game direction can turn on a dime, and thats just not possible. Not liking SWTOR because theres no sandbox gameplay is a really bad stance on what is otherwise an enjoyable themepark game. Not liking SWTOR because it has inherent similarities that many of the genres games do is again, complaining for complainings sake.
These things were likely never going to change. Fundamental design features don't get changed due to 1, or 5... or 100 people complaining about them, they get changed if and when they are a complete failure that detract from the entire game.
BioWare had some choices here, and its obvious they went with a safe bet. We can ask for much more, but expecting much more is pointless... the studio will only put out what it feels is right for the game. Hence, positive reactions feed that direction, and negative reactions end up creating a rift between gamers instead of forcing BioWare to change their direction.
Thats why I've been saying, people are focusing on the flaws of the game to profess their dislike of SWTOR... because it didn't provide some type of gameplay feature they personally wanted, but that doesn't mean the game is bad. It means the game is not for them. I guess its easier to push the blame on someone else than come to the realization that you don't have to like every game, even if its a popular or well received one. In that same avenue, complaining about it won't accomplish anything, other than tearing down something that was never meant for you in the first place.
Had there been a large negative response this conversation wouldn't be happening right now.
i wouldn't say expecting more is pointless and to say fundamental things won't change isn't true either.. for example look at star wars galaxies game went and completely redid how its skill and leveling works. I mean changed the entire system from a open skill based system to level based.. although it sort of back fired though heh.. if enough complain and they start losing enough people changes can and will come... I just wouldn't expect them for awhile after release
i wouldn't say expecting more is pointless and to say fundamental things won't change isn't true either.. for example look at star wars galaxies game went and completely redid how its skill and leveling works. I mean changed the entire system from a open skill based system to level based.. although it sort of back fired though heh.. if enough complain and they start losing enough people changes can and will come... I just wouldn't expect them for awhile after release
This is a different situation, its rare to see complete combat revamps, but most especially at launch. The fundamental gameplay for SWTOR is highly unlikely to change, but the point I was making is, overall positive responses over the game are what drove SWTOR to where it is now. SWG - well, it had a lot of negative responses, primarily due to SOE never being able to fix the game properly... perhaps they took that to mean "change all of the classes and the way you play the entire game". They did say it was a poor decision, of course, that wasn't until years later.
I enjoy the chance to create constructive feedback for the Devs. This morning as I read through ppl's first impressions of the beta build, I was dissapointed that more people hadnt shared in this desire. I believe such discourse is necessary to better the gaming community. Sometimes criticism and harsh language is required to open eyes. This was one of those cases. Instead of being satisfied with any old thing that is rolled out, more people should shout their desires, and see to it that those grievances have been addressed before comitting any allegiance or loyalty. I am happy to hear that your level of sophistication nullifies the need for such an outlet. Remember that insanity is continuing to do the exact same thing again and again, while expecting different results.
Basically, we should complain to get what we want? Sure we could do that, but why diminish something we enjoyed playing. I've been in beta for many months, it was clear what people were asking for, and a lot of it didn't come from unrealistic expectations, which I felt a number of your points were.
These are things that you wanted to see, not necessarily what others wanted. You mention MW3... yet MW3 is just the same old rehash of every war shooter known to man.
BioWare had a specific vision on what they wanted to create, my job as a tester was to provide feedback and bug reports on those features to get those features ready to ship. While my displeasure with things such as space combat was barely acknowledged and unchanged, little, modest tweaks were, all for the sake of getting the game in ship-ready condition.
You don't have to be satisfied with the game, you don't have to like it, or play it, but you'll be hurting yourself more than anyone else to have unrealistic expectations when playing ... well... any game. Wish for the stars, just don't expect them.
I disagree with this response more on principle than anything else, mostly because I don't enjoy being taken advantage of.
If we don't demand better from developers, they're going to give us exactly what they can get away with and nothing more (example: we've proven you can charge a subscription fee in tandem with additional microtransactions, this has become standard practice for many companies since - microtransaction content had previously been part of your subscription). We're not their friends, they're not in business to give us something fun to do: they're in business to make money. When bottom lining, you look for the most efficient and cost effective way to go about continuing to produce, and the most cost efficient way to keep a business running is to change absolutely nothing. So, unless people are bitching up a storm, raising hell for the people who actually make decisions in these companies, nothing ever changes and nothing ever gets fixed.
In regards to TOR and expectations, however, it was pretty easy to see what this game was, even miles down the track. It's not to say that I forgive them for making a game that I think is standard or mediocre in most ways, it's just that I knew what to expect before I started my bitching, and thusly also don't expect anything to come of it unless everyone else joins in.
Demanding better doesn't mean demanding what you want only, as you'll never get it. People pretend theres unlimited budgets, and that game direction can turn on a dime, and thats just not possible. Not liking SWTOR because theres no sandbox gameplay is a really bad stance on what is otherwise an enjoyable themepark game. Not liking SWTOR because it has inherent similarities that many of the genres games do is again, complaining for complainings sake.
These things were likely never going to change. Fundamental design features don't get changed due to 1, or 5... or 100 people complaining about them, they get changed if and when they are a complete failure that detract from the entire game.
BioWare had some choices here, and its obvious they went with a safe bet. We can ask for much more, but expecting much more is pointless... the studio will only put out what it feels is right for the game. Hence, positive reactions feed that direction, and negative reactions end up creating a rift between gamers instead of forcing BioWare to change their direction.
Thats why I've been saying, people are focusing on the flaws of the game to profess their dislike of SWTOR... because it didn't provide some type of gameplay feature they personally wanted, but that doesn't mean the game is bad. It means the game is not for them. I guess its easier to push the blame on someone else than come to the realization that you don't have to like every game, even if its a popular or well received one. In that same avenue, complaining about it won't accomplish anything, other than tearing down something that was never meant for you in the first place.
Had there been a large negative response this conversation wouldn't be happening right now.
While I agree with some of your post, we're simply of two different minds. It is true that if there had been a large negative response to TOR, this conversation wouldn't be happening. It's true that game development doesn't change on a dime, and that TOR isn't a bad game because it doesn't offer what everyone wants from it. That's about all we agree on, though, and I don't want to sound rude, or like I'm specifically trying to pick you out, but this type of attitude is generally the reason why we continue to see more of the same. That isn't to say that most people aren't looking for more of the same, or that developers aren't providing what appears to fulfill market desires, but that as MMO consumers we are probably far too forgiving.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I enjoy the chance to create constructive feedback for the Devs. This morning as I read through ppl's first impressions of the beta build, I was dissapointed that more people hadnt shared in this desire. I believe such discourse is necessary to better the gaming community. Sometimes criticism and harsh language is required to open eyes. This was one of those cases. Instead of being satisfied with any old thing that is rolled out, more people should shout their desires, and see to it that those grievances have been addressed before comitting any allegiance or loyalty. I am happy to hear that your level of sophistication nullifies the need for such an outlet. Remember that insanity is continuing to do the exact same thing again and again, while expecting different results.
While I share a great part of your critique, and it is explained intelligent and entertaining, I can't share your opitimism in the case of "learning things from critique". Humans never learn from words and rarely from experience.
I am on this website for many years, and with every single MMO I saw the same issues over and over and over. I tried to point at a few, but the learning effect of both gamers and possible dev audience was always exactly zero. I haven't seen a SINGLE TIME in my 5000+ posts that anyone EVER changed his point of view because of anything I had written. And without sounding too arrogant I have severeal reasons to assume my argumentation skills are not the issue. Just for once in those years I would have like to see someone saying "oh, you are right Elikal, now that you explain it, I see what you mean". Just once for the novelty.
But, be my guest to show me otherwise. Humans learning from explanations and education is a nice idea, young dragon.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I enjoy the chance to create constructive feedback for the Devs. This morning as I read through ppl's first impressions of the beta build, I was dissapointed that more people hadnt shared in this desire. I believe such discourse is necessary to better the gaming community. Sometimes criticism and harsh language is required to open eyes. This was one of those cases. Instead of being satisfied with any old thing that is rolled out, more people should shout their desires, and see to it that those grievances have been addressed before comitting any allegiance or loyalty. I am happy to hear that your level of sophistication nullifies the need for such an outlet. Remember that insanity is continuing to do the exact same thing again and again, while expecting different results.
While I share a great part of your critique, and it is explained intelligent and entertaining, I can't share your opitimism in the case of "learning things from critique". Humans never learn from words and rarely from experience.
I am on this website for many years, and with every single MMO I saw the same issues over and over and over. I tried to point at a few, but the learning effect of both gamers and possible dev audience was always exactly zero. I haven't seen a SINGLE TIME in my 5000+ posts that anyone EVER changed his point of view because of anything I had written. And without sounding too arrogant I have severeal reasons to assume my argumentation skills are not the issue. Just for once in those years I would have like to see someone saying "oh, you are righr Elikal, now that you explain it, I see what you mean". Just once for the novelty.
But, be my guest to show me otherwise. Humans learning from explanations and education is a nice idea, young dragon.
you are righr Elikal, now that you explain it, I see what you mean
I enjoy the chance to create constructive feedback for the Devs. This morning as I read through ppl's first impressions of the beta build, I was dissapointed that more people hadnt shared in this desire. I believe such discourse is necessary to better the gaming community. Sometimes criticism and harsh language is required to open eyes. This was one of those cases. Instead of being satisfied with any old thing that is rolled out, more people should shout their desires, and see to it that those grievances have been addressed before comitting any allegiance or loyalty. I am happy to hear that your level of sophistication nullifies the need for such an outlet. Remember that insanity is continuing to do the exact same thing again and again, while expecting different results.
While I share a great part of your critique, and it is explained intelligent and entertaining, I can't share your opitimism in the case of "learning things from critique". Humans never learn from words and rarely from experience.
I am on this website for many years, and with every single MMO I saw the same issues over and over and over. I tried to point at a few, but the learning effect of both gamers and possible dev audience was always exactly zero. I haven't seen a SINGLE TIME in my 5000+ posts that anyone EVER changed his point of view because of anything I had written. And without sounding too arrogant I have severeal reasons to assume my argumentation skills are not the issue. Just for once in those years I would have like to see someone saying "oh, you are righr Elikal, now that you explain it, I see what you mean". Just once for the novelty.
But, be my guest to show me otherwise. Humans learning from explanations and education is a nice idea, young dragon.
You just made me lose all hope in humanity. I hope you're happy.
Btw all the points in your OP have been made about 10,000x before and have already been debated to death long before First Impressions and the drop of the NDA. Raising complaints at this point isn't going to make a lick of difference anyway because the game ships 12/20/11. Not to mention the fact that Bioware has basically made it clear that they're going to make this game however they want regardless of feedback and who they might offend by disregarding it (ex: space on rails, no non-human playable aliens, etc.).
I wholehearledly agree with all the OP points and you.
BioWare, on purpose made a themepark but not any themepark a game on RAILS.
They bet a lot on story thinking they could deliver less on other features and IMHO they made a huge error.
Players want all they already have plus something else/new, not less: like no day/night cycles, poor character customization, lacking UI, no guild banks, no housing, no appearance tabs, no gear dyes, no swimming, no dual specs, no animal based pet classes, no non based pet classes (for single player mode), no PvP arenas, no fishing, no barber/image designer, no non combat based classes, no guild tabar, no multiplayer mounts, no LFG tool, no third party addons, no non humanoid based playable races...
And they want all the above @launch, or at least most of it.
So in essence, if we criticize the game before it comes out its:
"You didn't even play yet!!!"
If we criticize the game in beta:
"Its not done yet, but its pointless to criticize it for things that are already done!!!!"
If we criticize the game after release:
"Why do you play it if you don't like it!!!!????"
Is there really a "right time"?
Some people were there to criticize before alpha, some during alpha some in early beta and throughout beta. Everyone, their grandmother and their dog were just let in for a very late wekeend beta that was about stress testing and nothing more. If you were willing to do a 20 GB DL, you got to also get a first look at the game...bonus!
All I'm hearing is some weekend beta testers criticizing early design choices and some deeming that criticism useful feedback because it's negative and negative is better than positive.
I'm failing to see the useful or constructive part of criticizing ships that sailed long ago from a dev point of view.
If you agree with the OP well fine agree with him. Just don't try to educate us--as a dev, of course--on the superiority of negative criticism in a thread that is not about constructive criticism at all but rather about giving an overly-wordy, exagerated, overall negative impression of the whole enchilada... for some unknown reason.
And by the way, I said time AND place...the place would be over yonder on the beta forums. Better chance of influencing devs over there if that's your real intention, don't you think?
Welcome to the forums. We talk about stuff.
Wrong time, right time....who are you to tell anyone when the right or wrong time is?
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i had a blast ths past weekend and the previous beta weekend on my gfs beta . So i love tor.
The biggest thing isnt u cant criticize tor . go for it if u want we dont have to agree with u though. We also dont have to treat the lies people spout as truth when we know thye are lies.
If u think im gonna let people tell lies about this game and not stand up and defend it well u are naive.
Also im tired of the haters are smart/complicated gamers who know what a good game is but fanbois are simple minded bafoons who wouldnt knwo a good game if they were forced to play it opinon.
Its downright insulting and the fact the peope spouting this view are shocked others get mad or they get warnings or banned for that opinion shocks me.
U dont have to like tor it would be naive of anybody to think everyone out there loves any game ever made. Every game ever made even gw 2, secret world and games made in 100 yrs will have people who just dont enjoy them thats fine.
its how u criticize that gets people riled up. I have read negative reviews that ive respected and while i didnt agree with them i admired the guy for telling it as he saw it and not resorting to lies to get there point across . Its the other ones that bother me
the ones who post lies about he game and who put down the people who enjoyed the game that get to me. To bad the negative guys who treat it as there opinion and ot fact are few and far between
Its also annoying that people think they have to post 10 negative threads everytime they post an anit tor rant somewhere.
Huge wall of Text from a very huge ( and unusually clever ) Troll I'm guessing ... ?
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I was thinking the same thing. That truly is the statement of a hater. This so-called review just seems to be another attempt at trolling...
Agree with much of your post and well written. Thank you.
A couple points you made that I really really agree with:
Throughout my time in SWTOR I felt confined and closterphobic. Not the sense of wonder and awe you get from most new MMOs ( what is over the horizon or around that corner etc ).
I think the graphics are pretty bad in fact. WoW looks better to me although graphics are subjective and I completely agree much has been done in games ( have not tried tanks ) to use textures and POV to give that "awe" feeling.
Swtor just doesn't but I was not suprised. bioware is EA afterall.
Those are almost my own thoughts in the lead up to SWTOR. Following the game from afar I'd never got over hyped about SWTOR. I'd found the classes meh, the races meh and the thought of playing the game meh. The only thing I ever did find intruiging was Bioware's insistence on a story and all the voice acting they were doing.
I started hearing a bit more about the game a month or so ago and it had started to take my fancy a bit more. I still wasn't convinced though and signed up to this weekend's beta not having preordered and not even sure I would end up playing.
I really liked it though. It's actually made me appeciate that I should go in to a game open minded. I now can't wait for the 15th because I've preordered to get in early.
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I love how people register to post these massive wall of texts expecting that someone will actually read them.
I stopped reading after this cause I can pretty much guess what that huge wall of text said.
I'll just say, that you didn;t see a plethora of scathing reviews because a lot of people love this type of game. SWTOR is really fun to play if you like themeparks and good RP in a RPG.
My question is why "disappointed"? I mean just like not everyone has to like the same game as me, everyone doesn't have to hate the same games as me.
I loved the game. I know some people that absolutely hate teh game. But I can say this. There is a good chunk of people on this world that love this game and SWTOR will be successful..........
........Hope you're not disappointed.......
It's assumed most people who bother to go to a forum can read.
It's also very hard to break it up adequately on mmorpg.com. I often find it next to impossible to make posts look easier to read on this site. I think it's the white text on black. I wrote a very long review of my beta time and it got 70 odd views but no replies (last I looked). I can justa ssume that people stopped reading. I tried to break it up and could have added small pictures like a front page article would do. But I figured it was headed and broken up in to sections enough.
Sadly the world has become lazy and against reading anything longer than a limerick.
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Sadly this seems to be the way of the world if u want a game with sand box features large landscapes involveing play deep immersion in the environs,you pretty much are gonna be looking for a while i tried SWTOR and against my expectations i actually enjoyed it,even the WOW'ish game play which i detest was juxtersposed by the combat and the companion was very well implemented,of course the immersion from the Story helps but will prob drive me nuts after multiple plays.
No doubt Bioware took the if it aint broke don't fix it route and made a technically solid game as i had not one CTD,loss of server over 3 days solid play this game will grow and with there finances the ex-pacs could really add to the game graphically i expect this beta is a placeholder before they enhance the graphics as many expect the game will be the best thing since sliced bread.
I will see how it goes but Vanguard will tide me over but i may be swayed by the force as Bioware have deep pockets and the know how and vision to create something special even if it's not The star wars vision of many fans out there.
Op,Just saw your long post read a bit but mainly went of your title and too tired for anything more than a semi-rant.
Theres already rumblings that they are adding major content already with the "go-live" build.
played the beta weekend massively. was it fun, yeah. was it pretty, yeah. Told a good story, and the voice acting was refreshing, along with the moral light/dark. Was it enough to get me to sub, nope. Themepark, with the world feeling smaller than even wow. point n click FPS for ranged, and mash the button for melee. Felt like a single player game that you 'can' group with. Might play it if FTP, but not enough in the crafting dept. lacking in the PvP dept. The whole weekend I never even saw the other side. Fresh pretty face and the same old worn out components and mechanics.
Playing: Nothing (nothing worth playing)
Favorite: SWG (pre NGE, CU)
Played: WoW, Eve, DAoC, Warhamer, AoC, SWG, Earth & Beyond
Hope: GW2 maybe
I disagree with this response more on principle than anything else, mostly because I don't enjoy being taken advantage of.
If we don't demand better from developers, they're going to give us exactly what they can get away with and nothing more (example: we've proven you can charge a subscription fee in tandem with additional microtransactions, this has become standard practice for many companies since - microtransaction content had previously been part of your subscription). We're not their friends, they're not in business to give us something fun to do: they're in business to make money. When bottom lining, you look for the most efficient and cost effective way to go about continuing to produce, and the most cost efficient way to keep a business running is to change absolutely nothing. So, unless people are bitching up a storm, raising hell for the people who actually make decisions in these companies, nothing ever changes and nothing ever gets fixed.
In regards to TOR and expectations, however, it was pretty easy to see what this game was, even miles down the track. It's not to say that I forgive them for making a game that I think is standard or mediocre in most ways, it's just that I knew what to expect before I started my bitching, and thusly also don't expect anything to come of it unless everyone else joins in.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Just curious whats lacking in the pvp department?
I think good RPers would strongly disagree with your assessment. There is little room for RP in TOR. In multiple choice storytelling where every answer you choose leads to the exact same outcome (except, evidently, for how your purchased gear will look) your role is written for you. It isn't role playing - it's role reading.
As for my take, I felt SWTOR turned out to be a much better game than I thought it would. I thought it would be terrible. Turns out, it's a rather sloppy game with some really good up-sides. Companions are cool. Voice acting is good and really does add a lot to the enjoyment of the story. The story itself is engaging and a lot of people will like it. I tend to think that people who like Star Wars and get into their class's story arch will greatly enjoy the game, for a few months at least. People who do not get engaged in the story-telling will find the game seriously lacking in every other measurable.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
Perfect description, was trying to put this into words earlier. Thanks
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Demanding better doesn't mean demanding what you want only, as you'll never get it. People pretend theres unlimited budgets, and that game direction can turn on a dime, and thats just not possible. Not liking SWTOR because theres no sandbox gameplay is a really bad stance on what is otherwise an enjoyable themepark game. Not liking SWTOR because it has inherent similarities that many of the genres games do is again, complaining for complainings sake.
These things were likely never going to change. Fundamental design features don't get changed due to 1, or 5... or 100 people complaining about them, they get changed if and when they are a complete failure that detract from the entire game.
BioWare had some choices here, and its obvious they went with a safe bet. We can ask for much more, but expecting much more is pointless... the studio will only put out what it feels is right for the game. Hence, positive reactions feed that direction, and negative reactions end up creating a rift between gamers instead of forcing BioWare to change their direction.
Thats why I've been saying, people are focusing on the flaws of the game to profess their dislike of SWTOR... because it didn't provide some type of gameplay feature they personally wanted, but that doesn't mean the game is bad. It means the game is not for them. I guess its easier to push the blame on someone else than come to the realization that you don't have to like every game, even if its a popular or well received one. In that same avenue, complaining about it won't accomplish anything, other than tearing down something that was never meant for you in the first place.
Had there been a large negative response this conversation wouldn't be happening right now.
i wouldn't say expecting more is pointless and to say fundamental things won't change isn't true either.. for example look at star wars galaxies game went and completely redid how its skill and leveling works. I mean changed the entire system from a open skill based system to level based.. although it sort of back fired though heh.. if enough complain and they start losing enough people changes can and will come... I just wouldn't expect them for awhile after release
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
This is a different situation, its rare to see complete combat revamps, but most especially at launch. The fundamental gameplay for SWTOR is highly unlikely to change, but the point I was making is, overall positive responses over the game are what drove SWTOR to where it is now. SWG - well, it had a lot of negative responses, primarily due to SOE never being able to fix the game properly... perhaps they took that to mean "change all of the classes and the way you play the entire game". They did say it was a poor decision, of course, that wasn't until years later.
While I agree with some of your post, we're simply of two different minds. It is true that if there had been a large negative response to TOR, this conversation wouldn't be happening. It's true that game development doesn't change on a dime, and that TOR isn't a bad game because it doesn't offer what everyone wants from it. That's about all we agree on, though, and I don't want to sound rude, or like I'm specifically trying to pick you out, but this type of attitude is generally the reason why we continue to see more of the same. That isn't to say that most people aren't looking for more of the same, or that developers aren't providing what appears to fulfill market desires, but that as MMO consumers we are probably far too forgiving.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
While I share a great part of your critique, and it is explained intelligent and entertaining, I can't share your opitimism in the case of "learning things from critique". Humans never learn from words and rarely from experience.
I am on this website for many years, and with every single MMO I saw the same issues over and over and over. I tried to point at a few, but the learning effect of both gamers and possible dev audience was always exactly zero. I haven't seen a SINGLE TIME in my 5000+ posts that anyone EVER changed his point of view because of anything I had written. And without sounding too arrogant I have severeal reasons to assume my argumentation skills are not the issue. Just for once in those years I would have like to see someone saying "oh, you are right Elikal, now that you explain it, I see what you mean". Just once for the novelty.
But, be my guest to show me otherwise. Humans learning from explanations and education is a nice idea, young dragon.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
you are righr Elikal, now that you explain it, I see what you mean
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
You just made me lose all hope in humanity. I hope you're happy.
I wholehearledly agree with all the OP points and you.
BioWare, on purpose made a themepark but not any themepark a game on RAILS.
They bet a lot on story thinking they could deliver less on other features and IMHO they made a huge error.
Players want all they already have plus something else/new, not less: like no day/night cycles, poor character customization, lacking UI, no guild banks, no housing, no appearance tabs, no gear dyes, no swimming, no dual specs, no animal based pet classes, no non based pet classes (for single player mode), no PvP arenas, no fishing, no barber/image designer, no non combat based classes, no guild tabar, no multiplayer mounts, no LFG tool, no third party addons, no non humanoid based playable races...
And they want all the above @launch, or at least most of it.
Welcome to the forums. We talk about stuff.
Wrong time, right time....who are you to tell anyone when the right or wrong time is?