I like story driven RPG's, because I get to choose my character, what they look like, how they progress, and I get to do something important. SWTOR is a good RPG, because the next phase of the story depends on my choices. The dialogue choices are diverse enough that I feel I always have the option I"d actually say if I was that character.
I'd really like to see how long people would stick with a single player RPG that had zero story in it. How long will exploration alone keep you interested? Exploration isn't a part of the definition of role-play, so players that aren't interested in exploration for it's own sake do what in a game with no story in it?
Simply put, a RPG without a story driving you forward is a very boring RPG. Without a doubt, a story driven RPG without choices also feels rather dull and limited, which is why I enjoy Bioware games very much. Now MMORPG's are a tad different because you add players to the equation, so a world without a story driving you forward is more bearable, but the same thing that makes it bearable (other people) also ruin it. A sandbox MMORPG where people actually behaved the same way they would in real life would provide opportunities for great story's, but peole don't behave as they do in real life. Instead they turn a sandbox MMORPG into a FFA gankfest, making it mandatory to not be able to live your life relatively violence free.
Hate to break it to you, but 95% of the choices you seemingly make in SWTOR have zero effect on the outcome.
its so not a illiusion. if you dont say this thing you don't get the whitty comment.
seriously now. it is actually one thing i came across. but making decisions that can actually change how your game is being played becomes a problem when you quest in groups. the story and character you want would be ruined.
so i understand why they did this, honestly its the best they could do. you cant make this like a TES or Fallout, simply because there are other players who would be effected. what are you gonna do phase the whole game so that you are only with players who made the same choices. it kinda limits what you can do.
dont get me wrong though, i agree, you are told you have choice in your story. really you have choice in which oneliner you say.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
You forget one thing - 99,9% of people want to read books and watch movies and not write books and scripts.
BWs approach is to provide decent story with little wiggle room, but in the end its not really "open ended do what you want adventure". Its for majority of people, wheter you like it or not.
As far as i remember you could buy preset D&D adventures where you just followed the story. Not everyone did their own setting and their own stories on the fly.
99.9% of all Internet statistics are made on the spot.
But you can bet your arse the percentage of D&D player groups that made their own adventures was a LOT bigger than 0.01%
It might not be over 50%, it might not be even 30%, but consider this: Whatever the number is, those players have no MMOs to play at the moment, and thus some of them take the substitute to "get their MMO fix". There simply is no good alternative for those who want an AAA MMO with sandbox gameplay.
I agree, but that doesnt have anything to do with SWTOR. If you ever played BW game you would have known what to expect. They even dumbed it down for MMO masses. They never hid that it will be "BW game". For now its all rainbows and unicorns, long term retention is questionable, but this discussion for SWTOR is meaningless. Anyone who cared for this kind of thing knew that from the start, anyone who doesnt care will continue not to care *shrug*
RPG are about the story and the journey, like in a P&P where the game master will tell you a story and you only have to do certain choices go forward or not to go, i dont know if you actually played D&D pen and paper but that is how it works the game master will tell the story as it goes a long and you only make simple choices based on that which is the same premise as SWTOR.
Tell your game master he sucks.
Of course, if he was only running adventures written by others I sort of understand.
But that is not the only way you can play D&D. For example, I run a couple of RPG campaigns on a web forum, where the players have a lot of freedom on the outcome of the story. When I design an adventure, I do not design it as a linear path from point A to point B. Instead, I design the locale, the inhabitants each with their own goals and motives, and the course of events that WOULD happen if the players decide not to get involved. Then I drop some possible hooks the players might want to take. If they take none of them, I'll drop something else until they decide to get involved.
How it proceeds from there and how their actions change the course of events is completely open at this point. In traditional tabletop RPG this kind of game mastering requires a shitload of preparation and a lot of improvisation skills. In forum RPG, I have all the time I need to think how the world reacts to the player characters' actions.
THAT is roleplaying. Of course this can never be translated as-is into an MMO, at least before we have functional AI with at least rudimentary human intelligence.
I do like the story I think at the end of the day they need to catter to what most ppl want, I really like sandbox games but I also realize that its very unlikely a company that could pull off a sandbox I would want to play to actually do it, we have the train wreck of Darkfall, Mortal Online and then EVE which is not a train wreck but just fails to grab my atention like UO did for instance.
RPG are about the story and the journey, like in a P&P where the game master will tell you a story and you only have to do certain choices go forward or not to go, i dont know if you actually played D&D pen and paper but that is how it works the game master will tell the story as it goes a long and you only make simple choices based on that which is the same premise as SWTOR.
Actually it's not the same thing. Role-playing games are about story as they are currently deisgned, but the choices you make in them are illusionary. The majority of the content is still very much on rails. It's true that Dungeon Master crafts the story, but both the DM and the players have the capability to change the story (and in large ways) on the fly to suite whatever objective they wish to accomplish. Sadly, you can't really do that within SWTOR, you are locked in to a very specific path, which I think inhibits character variability, customization, and development.
I do like the story I think at the end of the day they need to catter to what most ppl want, I really like sandbox games but I also realize that its very unlikely a company that could pull off a sandbox I would want to play to actually do it, we have the train wreck of Darkfall, Mortal Online and then EVE which is not a train wreck but just fails to grab my atention like UO did for instance.
RPG are about the story and the journey, like in a P&P where the game master will tell you a story and you only have to do certain choices go forward or not to go, i dont know if you actually played D&D pen and paper but that is how it works the game master will tell the story as it goes a long and you only make simple choices based on that which is the same premise as SWTOR.
Actually it's not the same thing. Role-playing games are about story as they are currently deisgned, but the choices you make in them are illusionary. The majority of the content is still very much on rails. It's true that Dungeon Master crafts the story, but both the DM and the players have the capability to change the story (and in large ways) on the fly to suite whatever objective they wish to accomplish. Sadly, you can't really do that within SWTOR, you are locked in to a very specific path, which I think inhibits character variability, customization, and development.
I understand what you mean but most ppl dont want to make up stories they dont have that capability, your argument could be made for books why do ppl read books which are on rails instead of writing their own, the fact is not everyone can make up their own story the same way not everyone can write a good book, and those who can make it so its enjoyable.
That is the whole point of story telling it doesnt matter if its on rails if your sentiment was true as I said no one would read books. Not only that but there are technical limitations no MMO out there other than just put you in a world and left you to imagine everything will give you limitless choices, there will always be one of X amounts of paths you can take, because some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing.
When you enter an MMO world it is not a pre-historic sort of world there are already rules of the creators of the universe that is how MMOs work, cause you want to ride a pink poney doesnt mean they should have it cause you want more choice that is not how it works, most ppl play it for the mechanics within the world that being conquest with PVP, or story telling or even crafting, you will never have the option to craft a Ford Mustang in a LoTR game because its not part of the world you dont have that freedom.
Agreed Adam, but it stands to reason that to get that level of depth, the story cannot be contrived from pre-defined elements. That would enduce so much programming and writing that it would make even SWTOR's budget seem tiny. So the only way to allow for that is to give the player the freedom to develop their own stories.
People need to understand that we don't want a sandbox, we want the gameplay-TOOLS to make these freeform RPs.
I understand what you mean but most ppl dont want to make up stories they dont have that capability, your argument could be made for books why do ppl read books which are on rails instead of writing their own, the fact is not everyone can make up their own story the same way not everyone can write a good book, and those who can make it so its enjoyable.
That is the whole point of story telling it doesnt matter if its on rails if your sentiment was true as I said no one would read books. Not only that but there are technical limitations no MMO out there other than just put you in a world and left you to imagine everything will give you limitless choices, there will always be one of X amounts of paths you can take, because some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing.
When you enter an MMO world it is not a pre-historic sort of world there are already rules of the creators of the universe that is how MMOs work, cause you want to ride a pink poney doesnt mean they should have it cause you want more choice that is not how it works, most ppl play it for the mechanics within the world that being conquest with PVP, or story telling or even crafting, you will never have the option to craft a Ford Mustang in a LoTR game because its not part of the world you dont have that freedom.
You are going to the extreme, when I have obvioulsy not. I do not, nor have I ever expected to have unlimited choices in any game. There are always going to be rules and limiting factors.
Most people accept books as what they are, stories, those reading them don't expect to be participatory in the outcome of that story. They know what it is and accept it as such. Whereas with games, the capability to effect what takes place in that game is something that most gamers expect. I don't expect, nor have I ever expected to have limitless choices, but I certainly expect to have more choice than I am currently being allowed.
I also find the philosophy of "...some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing." insulting, and as such because it sacrifices my potential choies for the sake of the "story".
I understand what you mean but most ppl dont want to make up stories they dont have that capability, your argument could be made for books why do ppl read books which are on rails instead of writing their own, the fact is not everyone can make up their own story the same way not everyone can write a good book, and those who can make it so its enjoyable.
That is the whole point of story telling it doesnt matter if its on rails if your sentiment was true as I said no one would read books. Not only that but there are technical limitations no MMO out there other than just put you in a world and left you to imagine everything will give you limitless choices, there will always be one of X amounts of paths you can take, because some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing.
Well, most people accept books as what they are stories, those reading them don't expect to be participatory in the outcome of that story. They know what it is and accept it as such. Whereas with games, the capability to effect what takes place in that game is something that most gamers expect. I don't expect, nor have I ever expected to have limitless choices, but I certainly expect to have more choice than I am currently being allowed.
I also find the philosophy of "...some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing." insulting, and as such because it sacrifices my potential choies for the sake of the "story".
Like I said you cant have infinite choices no matter how much you wish for there will never be infinite choices on an MMO it is no possible, you will have to choose from a pool of choices ( even if they give you tools to create stuff there will be always X amount of combinations ). Now with this in mind a writer which is a person who also wrote a book is brough in to create a story for ppl to enjoy, there are always choices within the world now to satisfy ppl that want to have choice those choices are ones that fit within the game world.
I think you are being selfish in a way cause I think SWTOR choices in story are very good and to me I wouldnt want other ones, obviously for you they arent, you want to make radical choices that to me personally wouldnt fit within the star wars universe, if I played LoTRO and there was an option at the start to fly with the eagles to mordor I would be really pissed off juust cause someone wants unrealistic and unplausible choices, my immersion is based on how much I related to the character and the character relates to the world, either have choices who are well thought out and plausible or have some system that allows you to do radical but equally as shallow choices cause the story is going to be crap with lots of holes.
In short id rahter immerse myself in an epic story that has been thought throught rather than some shallow free world where most things make no sense and someone decided they wanted to paint the a whole city pink cause it was funny. And the reason you have a DM in pen and paper to keep the story on track.
The premise that story will save the MMO(RPG) genre is false. Specifically story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into attributes. Not to say that story is (or should be) absent from role-playing, but it is not (nor should be) the all-encompassing element that modern game designers seem to think it is. Role-Playing encompasses the acts and decisions that the player takes in order to make their character their own –the constructing their characters into a unique manifestation of their will. Role-playing a character in an RPG is no different from the processes we all went through as children playing with action figures. We created personas and personalities, histories and previous adventures which defined those characters’ natures. We invented adventures on the fly for them to participate in, with specific outcomes. Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal.
Story is defined as, “A usually fictional prose or verse narrative intended to interest or amuse the hearer or reader.” The key word used in this definition is narrative, which is defined as, “Consisting of or characterized by the telling of a story.” The point here is that story is narrative, or narration, being that a story in of itself involves no interactivity in its experience. You, the reader or the participator are a passive participant, and therefore do not have any influence in the events that you are reading, seeing, or are otherwise witnessing. This is typical of film and literature, but is a recent occurrence in gaming. The precursor of role-playing computer gaming was table-top and board games, the most influential of these was D&D (Dungeons and Dragons). The appeal of D&D was that stories were created on the fly, and the participatory players were free to design and develop stories for their characters and how they would also advance and develop their characters within that paradigm. Essentially, the story and character development wasn’t a prior design; it was developed on the fly, and ‘in-the-moment’. There was no linear story; it evolved as the participants needed it to. These players were free to design the backgrounds, personas, personalities, and whatever other personification of their characters they wished.
Skipping forward, the first MMO(RPG)s took this concept as a fundamental design characterization, wherein players were free to shape the world they lived within. Just as was the case with D&D, there was no previously designed story, the players could develop their own characters as they saw fit with the tools the developers had created for them.
The linear story driven RPG is not a result of role-playing, it is a shallow and base distortion of what role-playing really is. By limiting participants to a strict and specific story, developers are not catering to role-playing; they are in fact limiting it.
Very well written and thank you...
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
I understand what you mean but most ppl dont want to make up stories they dont have that capability, your argument could be made for books why do ppl read books which are on rails instead of writing their own, the fact is not everyone can make up their own story the same way not everyone can write a good book, and those who can make it so its enjoyable.
That is the whole point of story telling it doesnt matter if its on rails if your sentiment was true as I said no one would read books. Not only that but there are technical limitations no MMO out there other than just put you in a world and left you to imagine everything will give you limitless choices, there will always be one of X amounts of paths you can take, because some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing.
Well, most people accept books as what they are stories, those reading them don't expect to be participatory in the outcome of that story. They know what it is and accept it as such. Whereas with games, the capability to effect what takes place in that game is something that most gamers expect. I don't expect, nor have I ever expected to have limitless choices, but I certainly expect to have more choice than I am currently being allowed.
I also find the philosophy of "...some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing." insulting, and as such because it sacrifices my potential choies for the sake of the "story".
Like I said you cant have infinite choices no matter how much you wish for there will never be infinite choices on an MMO it is no possible, you will have to choose from a pool of choices ( even if they give you tools to create stuff there will be always X amount of combinations ). Now with this in mind a writer which is a person who also wrote a book is brough in to create a story for ppl to enjoy, there are always choices within the world now to satisfy ppl that want to have choice those choices are ones that fit within the game world.
I think you are being selfish in a way cause I think SWTOR choices in story are very good and to me I wouldnt want other ones, obviously for you they arent, you want to make radical choices that to me personally wouldnt fit within the star wars universe, if I played LoTRO and there was an option at the start to fly with the eagles to mordor I would be really pissed off juust cause someone wants unrealistic and unplausible choices, my immersion is based on how much I related to the character and the character relates to the world, either have choices who are well thought out and plausible or have some system that allows you to do radical but equally as shallow choices cause the story is going to be crap with lots of holes.
In short id rahter immerse myself in an epic story that has been thought throught rather than some shallow free world where most things make no sense and someone decided they wanted to paint the a whole city pink cause it was funny. And the reason you have a DM in pen and paper to keep the story on track.
The "choice" of changing alignment would be a small start for example in TOR.
Whats the fucking point in lightside/darkside points from convos if you cant actually change your alignment/class or at least fucking faction.
I mean does this make sense to you? Playing a jedi having a bajilion darkside points, but still being republic and being a jedi?
Talk about "unrealistic and unplausible".
Stop digging your own grave, the game lacks any persistent choice in the first place. Its like telling me I have the choice of drinking my milk in a red or blue cup.
The premise that story will save the MMO(RPG) genre is false. Specifically story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into attributes. Not to say that story is (or should be) absent from role-playing, but it is not (nor should be) the all-encompassing element that modern game designers seem to think it is.
Can you link to where this whole argument stems from? I've never seen a dev say or even infer that story was some 'all-encompassing element' and I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that story will 'save the genre'.
These boards are notorious for people blindly agreeing with or arguing a point without even questioning if anything they read was true or even remotely based in reality. I just can't get aboard that train. Was there an interview or dev blog somewhere that prompted this odd post?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You don't need a premade story for your character, in fact it's detrimental to the game outside a single player environment. What you do need is a universe with rich lore in which yor character can write his own story.
I understand what you mean but most ppl dont want to make up stories they dont have that capability, your argument could be made for books why do ppl read books which are on rails instead of writing their own, the fact is not everyone can make up their own story the same way not everyone can write a good book, and those who can make it so its enjoyable.
That is the whole point of story telling it doesnt matter if its on rails if your sentiment was true as I said no one would read books. Not only that but there are technical limitations no MMO out there other than just put you in a world and left you to imagine everything will give you limitless choices, there will always be one of X amounts of paths you can take, because some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing.
Well, most people accept books as what they are stories, those reading them don't expect to be participatory in the outcome of that story. They know what it is and accept it as such. Whereas with games, the capability to effect what takes place in that game is something that most gamers expect. I don't expect, nor have I ever expected to have limitless choices, but I certainly expect to have more choice than I am currently being allowed.
I also find the philosophy of "...some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing." insulting, and as such because it sacrifices my potential choies for the sake of the "story".
Like I said you cant have infinite choices no matter how much you wish for there will never be infinite choices on an MMO it is no possible, you will have to choose from a pool of choices ( even if they give you tools to create stuff there will be always X amount of combinations ). Now with this in mind a writer which is a person who also wrote a book is brough in to create a story for ppl to enjoy, there are always choices within the world now to satisfy ppl that want to have choice those choices are ones that fit within the game world.
I think you are being selfish in a way cause I think SWTOR choices in story are very good and to me I wouldnt want other ones, obviously for you they arent, you want to make radical choices that to me personally wouldnt fit within the star wars universe, if I played LoTRO and there was an option at the start to fly with the eagles to mordor I would be really pissed off juust cause someone wants unrealistic and unplausible choices, my immersion is based on how much I related to the character and the character relates to the world, either have choices who are well thought out and plausible or have some system that allows you to do radical but equally as shallow choices cause the story is going to be crap with lots of holes.
In short id rahter immerse myself in an epic story that has been thought throught rather than some shallow free world where most things make no sense and someone decided they wanted to paint the a whole city pink cause it was funny. And the reason you have a DM in pen and paper to keep the story on track.
The "choice" of changing alignment would be a small start for example in TOR.
Whats the fucking point in lightside/darkside points from convos if you cant actually change your alignment/class or at least fucking faction.
I mean does this make sense to you? Playing a jedi having a bajilion darkside points, but still being republic and being a jedi?
Talk about "unrealistic and unplausible".
Stop digging your own grave, the game lacks any persistent choice in the first place. Its like telling me I have the choice of drinking my milk in a red or blue cup.
In the end I'm going to drink milk.
That is your view on it, when I need to get a datacore and I can or not kill the guy that has it and I may or not bring the datacore back to the person that has asked me for it is not as shallow you make it seem. And FIY that is really something in game I mean to me that is a choice within the game and that is good enough. Within the constraints of game development the story telling within SWTOR has much better choice and story telling than most MMOs out there, when most games are go and kill these 10 boars or kill that orc captain and come back, end of story.
Its a step in the right direction and much better than what has been done before, there will never be a limitless choice MMO where everyone will individually make their own choices someone will always complain they cant do X that they want to do. But ppl will complain about anything these days.
You don't need a premade story for your character, in fact it's detrimental to the game outside a single player environment. What you do need is a universe with rich lore in which yor character can write his own story.
You should try Lineage 2 rich universe with nothing to force you into any story you can write the story of your character as you want.
No restrictions, no in game stories on rails, I wonder why more ppl arent playing Lineage 2 and making their own story.
if you want to write your own story then write your own story, no one is stopping you. but removing story from games so afew people can do that is the dumbest idea ive ever heard. seriously, do you want all your games to be nothing but grind so you can go "Hur Hur" acouple times.
you want to make your own story than go ahead, put your story in your mind where it would stay anyways. not like your gonna sit in chat saying "oh i totally did this, and i totally did that" thats worse than bragging for you Epeen. want the game not to have story go play something thats grindtastic and invent reasons why your doing what your doing.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
The premise that story will save the MMO(RPG) genre is false. Specifically story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into attributes. Not to say that story is (or should be) absent from role-playing, but it is not (nor should be) the all-encompassing element that modern game designers seem to think it is.
Can you link to where this whole argument stems from? I've never seen a dev say or even infer that story was some 'all-encompassing element' and I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that story will 'save the genre'.
These boards are notorious for people blindly agreeing with or arguing a point without even questioning if anything they read was true or even remotely based in reality. I just can't get aboard that train. Was there an interview or dev blog somewhere that prompted this odd post?
Well for example, here are some direct quotes right from the SWTOR website, greatly lauding story. But seriously, if you don't know what my original post is referencing, I have to ask... Have you been living under a rock?
"We believe that there are four pillars of the roleplaying experience: progression, exploration, combat, and story [Emphasis added]."
"Among massively-multiplayer online games, story hasn’t always received the same level of attention given to the other pillars. Star Wars: The Old Republic brings a new dimension to the MMO experience by putting story front and center [Emphasis added]."
"...we are making a strong commitment to put the concept of story at the forefront of Star Wars: The Old Republic."
You don't need a premade story for your character, in fact it's detrimental to the game outside a single player environment. What you do need is a universe with rich lore in which yor character can write his own story.
what you said is exactly what i responded to is it not. Quests are extention of a story, they are used to push story ideas. remove the story you remove the reasoning behind quests. or would you rather write the reasoning behind the quest aswell.
honestly i have spoken out against the handholding style that TOR has but your pushing the idea a little to far.
im waiting for TSW because it seem to have the correct balence that is required.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
You don't need a premade story for your character, in fact it's detrimental to the game outside a single player environment. What you do need is a universe with rich lore in which yor character can write his own story.
what you said is exactly what i responded to is it not. Quests are extention of a story, they are used to push story ideas. remove the story you remove the reasoning behind quests. or would you rather write the reasoning behind the quest aswell.
honestly i have spoken out against the handholding style that TOR has but your pushing the idea a little to far.
Thats bullshit of the highest degree.
Are you suggesting that you can't have quests (objectives) withing an emergent system of player-interactions?
Hello EVE freeform contracts.
I'm sick and tired of that false dichotomy that Themeparks need to have "quests" and " tell a story", its the same bullshit as FFA PVP being an integral part of sandbox mmos.
You don't need a premade story for your character, in fact it's detrimental to the game outside a single player environment. What you do need is a universe with rich lore in which yor character can write his own story.
what you said is exactly what i responded to is it not. Quests are extention of a story, they are used to push story ideas. remove the story you remove the reasoning behind quests. or would you rather write the reasoning behind the quest aswell.
honestly i have spoken out against the handholding style that TOR has but your pushing the idea a little to far.
No I don't think so, don't get me wrong but I actually like story under certain circumstances. The problem is that story always will suffer in a mmorpg. Why? Because you have hundreds of thousands of players running around and destroying immersion in a hundreds of thousands little ways. Better to leave just the universe and the lore in place and reserve story for special occasions. Note that that does not mean that I want to play a game that is total anarchy.
Quests are extention of a story, they are used to push story ideas. remove the story you remove the reasoning behind quests. or would you rather write the reasoning behind the quest aswell.
Quests might exist within the world, but if the quest exists only to further the story, it exists only to promote the existence of the story, and produces no significant benefit for the development of the character. Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal.
Quests can, and do exist outside of the narrative as previously pointed out, however, they should exist to promote the development and advancement of the character, not the narrative.
EVE isnt the same as a fantasy MMORPG. Eve is also strongly based in the work of factions and player groups. dont get me wrong i can see the beauty of letting stories make them selves i played FoM and loved every minuite of it. but they are different styles of games.
Games that focus on the mob and the gear need some story (not TOR Handholding) to keep things on track.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Comments
Hate to break it to you, but 95% of the choices you seemingly make in SWTOR have zero effect on the outcome.
It's an illusion.
its so not a illiusion. if you dont say this thing you don't get the whitty comment.
seriously now. it is actually one thing i came across. but making decisions that can actually change how your game is being played becomes a problem when you quest in groups. the story and character you want would be ruined.
so i understand why they did this, honestly its the best they could do. you cant make this like a TES or Fallout, simply because there are other players who would be effected. what are you gonna do phase the whole game so that you are only with players who made the same choices. it kinda limits what you can do.
dont get me wrong though, i agree, you are told you have choice in your story. really you have choice in which oneliner you say.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
I agree, but that doesnt have anything to do with SWTOR. If you ever played BW game you would have known what to expect. They even dumbed it down for MMO masses. They never hid that it will be "BW game". For now its all rainbows and unicorns, long term retention is questionable, but this discussion for SWTOR is meaningless. Anyone who cared for this kind of thing knew that from the start, anyone who doesnt care will continue not to care *shrug*
Tell your game master he sucks.
Of course, if he was only running adventures written by others I sort of understand.
But that is not the only way you can play D&D. For example, I run a couple of RPG campaigns on a web forum, where the players have a lot of freedom on the outcome of the story. When I design an adventure, I do not design it as a linear path from point A to point B. Instead, I design the locale, the inhabitants each with their own goals and motives, and the course of events that WOULD happen if the players decide not to get involved. Then I drop some possible hooks the players might want to take. If they take none of them, I'll drop something else until they decide to get involved.
How it proceeds from there and how their actions change the course of events is completely open at this point. In traditional tabletop RPG this kind of game mastering requires a shitload of preparation and a lot of improvisation skills. In forum RPG, I have all the time I need to think how the world reacts to the player characters' actions.
THAT is roleplaying. Of course this can never be translated as-is into an MMO, at least before we have functional AI with at least rudimentary human intelligence.
Actually it's not the same thing. Role-playing games are about story as they are currently deisgned, but the choices you make in them are illusionary. The majority of the content is still very much on rails. It's true that Dungeon Master crafts the story, but both the DM and the players have the capability to change the story (and in large ways) on the fly to suite whatever objective they wish to accomplish. Sadly, you can't really do that within SWTOR, you are locked in to a very specific path, which I think inhibits character variability, customization, and development.
I understand what you mean but most ppl dont want to make up stories they dont have that capability, your argument could be made for books why do ppl read books which are on rails instead of writing their own, the fact is not everyone can make up their own story the same way not everyone can write a good book, and those who can make it so its enjoyable.
That is the whole point of story telling it doesnt matter if its on rails if your sentiment was true as I said no one would read books. Not only that but there are technical limitations no MMO out there other than just put you in a world and left you to imagine everything will give you limitless choices, there will always be one of X amounts of paths you can take, because some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing.
When you enter an MMO world it is not a pre-historic sort of world there are already rules of the creators of the universe that is how MMOs work, cause you want to ride a pink poney doesnt mean they should have it cause you want more choice that is not how it works, most ppl play it for the mechanics within the world that being conquest with PVP, or story telling or even crafting, you will never have the option to craft a Ford Mustang in a LoTR game because its not part of the world you dont have that freedom.
People need to understand that we don't want a sandbox, we want the gameplay-TOOLS to make these freeform RPs.
A chat window is not a tool.
You are going to the extreme, when I have obvioulsy not. I do not, nor have I ever expected to have unlimited choices in any game. There are always going to be rules and limiting factors.
Most people accept books as what they are, stories, those reading them don't expect to be participatory in the outcome of that story. They know what it is and accept it as such. Whereas with games, the capability to effect what takes place in that game is something that most gamers expect. I don't expect, nor have I ever expected to have limitless choices, but I certainly expect to have more choice than I am currently being allowed.
I also find the philosophy of "...some paths are just awkward and horrible to the story and just not worth doing." insulting, and as such because it sacrifices my potential choies for the sake of the "story".
Like I said you cant have infinite choices no matter how much you wish for there will never be infinite choices on an MMO it is no possible, you will have to choose from a pool of choices ( even if they give you tools to create stuff there will be always X amount of combinations ). Now with this in mind a writer which is a person who also wrote a book is brough in to create a story for ppl to enjoy, there are always choices within the world now to satisfy ppl that want to have choice those choices are ones that fit within the game world.
I think you are being selfish in a way cause I think SWTOR choices in story are very good and to me I wouldnt want other ones, obviously for you they arent, you want to make radical choices that to me personally wouldnt fit within the star wars universe, if I played LoTRO and there was an option at the start to fly with the eagles to mordor I would be really pissed off juust cause someone wants unrealistic and unplausible choices, my immersion is based on how much I related to the character and the character relates to the world, either have choices who are well thought out and plausible or have some system that allows you to do radical but equally as shallow choices cause the story is going to be crap with lots of holes.
In short id rahter immerse myself in an epic story that has been thought throught rather than some shallow free world where most things make no sense and someone decided they wanted to paint the a whole city pink cause it was funny. And the reason you have a DM in pen and paper to keep the story on track.
Very well written and thank you...
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Raven. Once again, your going to extremes. Please stop.
Thank you.
The "choice" of changing alignment would be a small start for example in TOR.
Whats the fucking point in lightside/darkside points from convos if you cant actually change your alignment/class or at least fucking faction.
I mean does this make sense to you? Playing a jedi having a bajilion darkside points, but still being republic and being a jedi?
Talk about "unrealistic and unplausible".
Stop digging your own grave, the game lacks any persistent choice in the first place. Its like telling me I have the choice of drinking my milk in a red or blue cup.
In the end I'm going to drink milk.
Can you link to where this whole argument stems from? I've never seen a dev say or even infer that story was some 'all-encompassing element' and I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that story will 'save the genre'.
These boards are notorious for people blindly agreeing with or arguing a point without even questioning if anything they read was true or even remotely based in reality. I just can't get aboard that train. Was there an interview or dev blog somewhere that prompted this odd post?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You don't need a premade story for your character, in fact it's detrimental to the game outside a single player environment. What you do need is a universe with rich lore in which yor character can write his own story.
That is your view on it, when I need to get a datacore and I can or not kill the guy that has it and I may or not bring the datacore back to the person that has asked me for it is not as shallow you make it seem. And FIY that is really something in game I mean to me that is a choice within the game and that is good enough. Within the constraints of game development the story telling within SWTOR has much better choice and story telling than most MMOs out there, when most games are go and kill these 10 boars or kill that orc captain and come back, end of story.
Its a step in the right direction and much better than what has been done before, there will never be a limitless choice MMO where everyone will individually make their own choices someone will always complain they cant do X that they want to do. But ppl will complain about anything these days.
You should try Lineage 2 rich universe with nothing to force you into any story you can write the story of your character as you want.
No restrictions, no in game stories on rails, I wonder why more ppl arent playing Lineage 2 and making their own story.
if you want to write your own story then write your own story, no one is stopping you. but removing story from games so afew people can do that is the dumbest idea ive ever heard. seriously, do you want all your games to be nothing but grind so you can go "Hur Hur" acouple times.
you want to make your own story than go ahead, put your story in your mind where it would stay anyways. not like your gonna sit in chat saying "oh i totally did this, and i totally did that" thats worse than bragging for you Epeen. want the game not to have story go play something thats grindtastic and invent reasons why your doing what your doing.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Rofl, so everbody that doesn't love TORs hand holding ons size fits all design philosophy are people who love endless grinds? Gimme a break.
Well for example, here are some direct quotes right from the SWTOR website, greatly lauding story. But seriously, if you don't know what my original post is referencing, I have to ask... Have you been living under a rock?
"We believe that there are four pillars of the roleplaying experience: progression, exploration, combat, and story [Emphasis added]."
"Among massively-multiplayer online games, story hasn’t always received the same level of attention given to the other pillars. Star Wars: The Old Republic brings a new dimension to the MMO experience by putting story front and center [Emphasis added]."
"...we are making a strong commitment to put the concept of story at the forefront of Star Wars: The Old Republic."
what you said is exactly what i responded to is it not. Quests are extention of a story, they are used to push story ideas. remove the story you remove the reasoning behind quests. or would you rather write the reasoning behind the quest aswell.
honestly i have spoken out against the handholding style that TOR has but your pushing the idea a little to far.
im waiting for TSW because it seem to have the correct balence that is required.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
shhh don't break they ilusion they have something nice now, if not they will start to try to hate other games for being better then they new precious.
Thats bullshit of the highest degree.
Are you suggesting that you can't have quests (objectives) withing an emergent system of player-interactions?
Hello EVE freeform contracts.
I'm sick and tired of that false dichotomy that Themeparks need to have "quests" and " tell a story", its the same bullshit as FFA PVP being an integral part of sandbox mmos.
No I don't think so, don't get me wrong but I actually like story under certain circumstances. The problem is that story always will suffer in a mmorpg. Why? Because you have hundreds of thousands of players running around and destroying immersion in a hundreds of thousands little ways. Better to leave just the universe and the lore in place and reserve story for special occasions. Note that that does not mean that I want to play a game that is total anarchy.
Quests might exist within the world, but if the quest exists only to further the story, it exists only to promote the existence of the story, and produces no significant benefit for the development of the character. Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal.
Quests can, and do exist outside of the narrative as previously pointed out, however, they should exist to promote the development and advancement of the character, not the narrative.
EVE isnt the same as a fantasy MMORPG. Eve is also strongly based in the work of factions and player groups. dont get me wrong i can see the beauty of letting stories make them selves i played FoM and loved every minuite of it. but they are different styles of games.
Games that focus on the mob and the gear need some story (not TOR Handholding) to keep things on track.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.