if you want to write your own story then write your own story, no one is stopping you. but removing story from games so afew people can do that is the dumbest idea ive ever heard. seriously, do you want all your games to be nothing but grind so you can go "Hur Hur" acouple times.
you want to make your own story than go ahead, put your story in your mind where it would stay anyways. not like your gonna sit in chat saying "oh i totally did this, and i totally did that" thats worse than bragging for you Epeen. want the game not to have story go play something thats grindtastic and invent reasons why your doing what your doing.
Do you play many sandbox-style MMOs? If not, then I can completely understnad why such design is foreign to you.
When people talk about creating their own story through choices, they are not talking about backstory and bio, but about the story of their character or guild as created through their actions in game.
If you ask a player of LOTRO, EQ, Rift or WOW to relay their first month of gameplay, you would probably get the same sequence of events from each oneof them. This is because the game provides the story and the player actions sequentially unlock each piece of the tale. Like the Final Fantasy game series, players are playing to progress their character to the next chapter of the tale they are walking through.
If you ask a player of UO, ATITD, Puzzle Pirates or EVE to relay their first month, you will get a wide range of replies within each game, as the player's choices define their path and future options. The story sin't just at the player level, but at the guild and even server level. While the developers may have their own ridiculous and unrelated plot running, the player creations, alliances and conquests write the history of the server as it evolves.
For example, history of a WOW server would look something like this:
- players grinding, some farming
- players still grinding, some still farming
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [raid]
- [guild] beats [raid]
- [guild] beats [raid]
- [guild] beats [raid]
However, if you look at the evolving story that the players played through inthe process, there was a rich histroy of events and conflicts at play which the players revealed to their characters as they leveled through.
Server history for a game where players write their own story may look something like this or this.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The premise that story will save the MMO(RPG) genre is false. Specifically story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into attributes. Not to say that story is (or should be) absent from role-playing, but it is not (nor should be) the all-encompassing element that modern game designers seem to think it is.
Can you link to where this whole argument stems from? I've never seen a dev say or even infer that story was some 'all-encompassing element' and I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that story will 'save the genre'.
These boards are notorious for people blindly agreeing with or arguing a point without even questioning if anything they read was true or even remotely based in reality. I just can't get aboard that train. Was there an interview or dev blog somewhere that prompted this odd post?
Well for example, here are some direct quotes right from the SWTOR website, greatly lauding story. But seriously, if you don't want my original post is referencing, I have to ask... Have you been living under a rock?
"We believe that there are four pillars of the roleplaying experience: progression, exploration, combat, and story [Emphasis added]."
"Among massively-multiplayer online games, story hasn’t always received the same level of attention given to the other pillars. Star Wars: The Old Republic brings a new dimension to the MMO experience by putting story front and center [Emphasis added]."
"...we are making a strong commitment to put the concept of story at the forefront of Star Wars: The Old Republic."
Ok, so basically it's a straw man you're running with, as no one has said or even implied what you claim inthe OP. I kinda thought that was the case.
"if you don't want my original post is referencing, I have to ask... Have you been living under a rock?"
As you pointed out (thanks for the quotes!) the devs said they were emphasizing story in SWTOR. Where you got that they said it would 'save the genre' or that it an 'all-encompassing element' when they clearly stated (and you even quoted) that is was one of the four main components of the game, is still unanswered.
Cheers!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ok, so basically it's a straw man you're running with, as no one has said or even implied what you claim inthe OP. I kinda thought that was the case.
"if you don't want my original post is referencing, I have to ask... Have you been living under a rock?"
As you pointed out (thanks for the quotes!) the devs said they were emphasizing story in SWTOR. Where you got that they said it would 'save the genre' or that it an 'all-encompassing element' when they clearly stated (and you even quoted) that is was one of the four main components of the game, is still unanswered.
Cheers!
Nice try, but no, it's not a strawman argument. The fact that they intend to revolutionize the MMO is implied in those quotes, and I think any reasonable educated person can see that. Secondly, how is "brings a new dimension to the MMO experience by putting story front and center." not placing a heavy central emphasis on story? The majority of the content in SWTOR is based on story, therefore if that is the case, then story is an all-ecompasing element.
UPDATE: Another quote proving my point. "Star Wars: The Old Republic stands as one of the greatest and most ambitious achievements in video game history." (http://www.swtor.com/news/press-release/20111223, Beginning of the fifth paragraph. This statement seems infatic to me that to claim this proves they had a preconceived thought beforehand, which is pure PR and hype.
Honestly the idea of it being a Game saving thing vanished pretty early in the posts. and oh dont worry i do agree that going overboard with it is bad. thats what Bioware did, they clearly went overboard. but it is one of the main 4 things that are needed, in this style of MMO.
it seems more like what your doing is taking the current hit, finding a low point and going "well sandbox is better traditional because of this" instead of saying, Yeah The overdone story is a lowpoint of SWTOR. i could give a rats ass about SWTOR really. i still feel Story needs to be a main part, but not THE main part.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Honestly the idea of it being a Game saving thing vanished pretty early in the posts. and oh dont worry i do agree that going overboard with it is bad. thats what Bioware did, they clearly went overboard. but it is one of the main 4 things that are needed, in this style of MMO.
it seems more like what your doing is taking the current hit, finding a low point and going "well sandbox is better traditional because of this" instead of saying, Yeah The overdone story is a lowpoint of SWTOR. i could give a rats ass about SWTOR really. i still feel Story needs to be a main part, but not THE main part.
The genre saving statement is based on the plethora of comments made by people claiming that, I don't know that a dev made that claim anywhere, and I never claimed they did. I never used the term sandbox in my original post, and it wasn't intended to be a sandbox versus thempark discussion.
Yes, story needs to exist in some fashion, and most likely as lore or a general background story where the player might run into it from time to time, but it shouldn't be the main factor of the game.
The premise that story will save the MMO(RPG) genre is false. Specifically story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into attributes. Not to say that story is (or should be) absent from role-playing, but it is not (nor should be) the all-encompassing element that modern game designers seem to think it is.
Can you link to where this whole argument stems from? I've never seen a dev say or even infer that story was some 'all-encompassing element' and I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that story will 'save the genre'.
These boards are notorious for people blindly agreeing with or arguing a point without even questioning if anything they read was true or even remotely based in reality. I just can't get aboard that train. Was there an interview or dev blog somewhere that prompted this odd post?
Well for example, here are some direct quotes right from the SWTOR website, greatly lauding story. But seriously, if you don't want my original post is referencing, I have to ask... Have you been living under a rock?
"We believe that there are four pillars of the roleplaying experience: progression, exploration, combat, and story [Emphasis added]."
"Among massively-multiplayer online games, story hasn’t always received the same level of attention given to the other pillars. Star Wars: The Old Republic brings a new dimension to the MMO experience by putting story front and center [Emphasis added]."
"...we are making a strong commitment to put the concept of story at the forefront of Star Wars: The Old Republic."
Ok, so basically it's a straw man you're running with, as no one has said or even implied what you claim inthe OP. I kinda thought that was the case.
"if you don't want my original post is referencing, I have to ask... Have you been living under a rock?"
As you pointed out (thanks for the quotes!) the devs said they were emphasizing story in SWTOR. Where you got that they said it would 'save the genre' or that it an 'all-encompassing element' when they clearly stated (and you even quoted) that is was one of the four main components of the game, is still unanswered.
Cheers!
It has been said on just about every game-show I visited, live by the people presenting the game.
Obviously this is anecdotal, but they did say it quite clearly. I think Shamus Young mentioned it also in one of his interviews and TOR coverages.
Seriously, they were pushing the story and VO as revolutionizing the genre.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story. Any game where the players create the story simply out of their own interests is an obomination to the concept of D&D. That sort of game is pure 4th wall and exploiting the narative just so players can profit on their own terms. If this is how the OP plays D&D or thinks it is played he has horribly warped it's intended concept.
Modern mmo's would not exist without rpg's. Their soul purpose was to emulate that experience in a video game. The DM sets the scene, acts out the characters and foes that interact with the players and the players act out responses according to their characte concepts. The characters gain xp and progress within the mechanics of their class. There are certain options (typically feats, talents and ac's) allowed. D&D has always been a mix of the so called themepark and sandbox. However, it is the DM who sets restrictions. The players cannot be allowed to simply do what they want when they want. Sadly craptastic DM's allow this as player groups become nothing but a collection of DM's and no long the single DM and players. The best player is one who has the ability to 'pretend' they know no rules and simply live in the world presented to them. A good DM is one who wields all the power yet acts fair and balanced against the world presented. I feel the OP has no concept of this.
In D&D the player visually imagines the world they are in (the graphics), interacts with the npc's of the world with voice (DM's voice and theirs), progresses through the story presented to them that has a begining and an end point but can choose to side track to do the things that interest them when allowed within the story. Do you see the similarities?
In Swtor the world is presented visually to the players, npc's have full voice and players are given options befitting their character concept, characters choose their gear and talent paths, story progresses forward but they have time to swing to other worlds, do heroics, pvp, flash points, crafting, etc. Do you now see the similarities?
You think sandbox is what D&D is? You are horribly wrong. Bioware is the DM. We are the players following their story. More and more options are promised to us to allow further customization (guild ships, expanded space combat, more planets, more story, more open world pvp, etc). The OP has completely lost sight of what old school rpg is or has never understood it. Story has always been the PRIMARY and ONLY driving force in old school D&D. Go play the Dragonlance Chronicles series and tell me you have pure freedom to sandbox your character. You will only be a bug squashed by global war that is the story.
Swtor is what it is. It is story and a lot of the ability to play with others within the story. I have played with 2-3 other players every day since day one of EGA with others in our guild swapping in and out and even the randon invite or group. You can choose to group or choose to solo. You gain social points when grouping and there are tons of heroics to do and at level 28 have been through 5 different flashpojnts. I have grouped with 2 or more over the last 7 days more than I bothered to group in a month in Wow. I group with players who I game with regularly just like in D&D. Never in D&D over the last 30 years have I EVER played with more than 6-7 players and normally the DM and 3-5 players. Very few in the history of rpg's has anyone ever had hundreds of different players rotate through their groups, had 20+ man raid kills fests in one evening or shared their homes with dozens of others standing around yelling crap they want to sell or to steal players for their own groups.
So OP ... it turns out Swtor is much more like D&D and ANY previous mmo (even D&D online which is small groups but nearly zero story and open world ... swtor actually has one of the more open mmo worlds out there). {mod edit}
You don't need a premade story for your character, in fact it's detrimental to the game outside a single player environment. What you do need is a universe with rich lore in which yor character can write his own story.
You should try Lineage 2 rich universe with nothing to force you into any story you can write the story of your character as you want.
No restrictions, no in game stories on rails, I wonder why more ppl arent playing Lineage 2 and making their own story.
Likely because this game is one of the definitions provided when people look up "Korean Grinder MMO"
I think the OP took D&D as an example of the classic RPGs, because it's a game most of people have at least heard of. Agreed, it's not the best example, because at the basic D&D was designed to be a pretty linear system.
Maybe a better example could have been World of Darkness, FATE or another storytelling RPG system, but let's face it, a very small minority have probably ever even heard of those systems.
The point is still valid, SWTOR and other similar themepark games restricts the players more than most PnP games do, to the point where the choices the player makes are almost insignificant.
I also agree with the OP that a pre-canned story is not what the MMO genre currently needs. It's not roleplaying to make choices which actually have no consequences.
First, of all there is no need to be vulgar, and I don't take kindly to your opening statement. It's fine to discuss criticisms and opposing viewpoints, but don't be an ass and make it personal.
However, I should have thought of a better example than D&D, but in my experience with it, the DM gave us flexibility in where the story went. We couldn't radically change the entire story, but there was still alot of freedom in where the story went. My point is that the story as presented wasn't predefined nor dictatorial, and while the DM might have some threads he was working from, he wasn't a Nazi about it, but also we had freedom with the development of our characters. Moreso though is the concept that ANY story we worked from was born out of imagination and what we were doing 'in-the-moment', and not the product of some pre-conceived set in stone narrative.
The story in SWTOR on the other hand is the only thing driving the game forward, and the vast majority of content is designed around that philosophy. Because of this, the game is dictatorial in its approach to story, thus heavily limiting the options players have for the development of their characters.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story. Any game where the players create the story simply out of their own interests is an obomination to the concept of D&D. That sort of game is pure 4th wall and exploiting the narative just so players can profit on their own terms. If this is how the OP plays D&D or thinks it is played he has horribly warped it's intended concept.
Modern mmo's would not exist without rpg's. Their soul purpose was to emulate that experience in a video game. The DM sets the scene, acts out the characters and foes that interact with the players and the players act out responses according to their characte concepts. The characters gain xp and progress within the mechanics of their class. There are certain options (typically feats, talents and ac's) allowed. D&D has always been a mix of the so called themepark and sandbox. However, it is the DM who sets restrictions. The players cannot be allowed to simply do what they want when they want. Sadly craptastic DM's allow this as player groups become nothing but a collection of DM's and no long the single DM and players. The best player is one who has the ability to 'pretend' they know no rules and simply live in the world presented to them. A good DM is one who wields all the power yet acts fair and balanced against the world presented. I feel the OP has no concept of this.
In D&D the player visually imagines the world they are in (the graphics), interacts with the npc's of the world with voice (DM's voice and theirs), progresses through the story presented to them that has a begining and an end point but can choose to side track to do the things that interest them when allowed within the story. Do you see the similarities?
In Swtor the world is presented visually to the players, npc's have full voice and players are given options befitting their character concept, characters choose their gear and talent paths, story progresses forward but they have time to swing to other worlds, do heroics, pvp, flash points, crafting, etc. Do you now see the similarities?
You think sandbox is what D&D is? You are horribly wrong. Bioware is the DM. We are the players following their story. More and more options are promised to us to allow further customization (guild ships, expanded space combat, more planets, more story, more open world pvp, etc). The OP has completely lost sight of what old school rpg is or has never understood it. Story has always been the PRIMARY and ONLY driving force in old school D&D. Go play the Dragonlance Chronicles series and tell me you have pure freedom to sandbox your character. You will only be a bug squashed by global war that is the story.
Swtor is what it is. It is story and a lot of the ability to play with others within the story. I have played with 2-3 other players every day since day one of EGA with others in our guild swapping in and out and even the randon invite or group. You can choose to group or choose to solo. You gain social points when grouping and there are tons of heroics to do and at level 28 have been through 5 different flashpojnts. I have grouped with 2 or more over the last 7 days more than I bothered to group in a month in Wow. I group with players who I game with regularly just like in D&D. Never in D&D over the last 30 years have I EVER played with more than 6-7 players and normally the DM and 3-5 players. Very few in the history of rpg's has anyone ever had hundreds of different players rotate through their groups, had 20+ man raid kills fests in one evening or shared their homes with dozens of others standing around yelling crap they want to sell or to steal players for their own groups.
So OP ... it turns out Swtor is much more like D&D and ANY previous mmo (even D&D online which is small groups but nearly zero story and open world ... swtor actually has one of the more open mmo worlds out there).
{mod edit}
I actually have to disagree with your premise of the DM being the storyteller and players just riding the story. Partly, because what is highlighted in blue is dead on correct. What is in red is not only contradictory to itself (I mean, really contradictory), but also not entirely true.
What happens is that the DM sets up the story. And, for the most part that story gets played out. But rarely will it ever go the way the DM envisioned it if the DM is worth anything. Players become just as frustrated if the restrictions are overbearing as they do in MMOs like that. There is freedom of movement and choice required. And sometimes, blatant mutiny and change of story happens. Why? Because D&D is both themepark and sandbox like you said. A good DM knows that sometimes player, acting in thier alignment and roles, can 180 on a story and it be legit and the DM must compensate and recreate story or alter it or come back to it later. And this isn't what you call a bunch of DMs and players, its a good story that partially writes itself with a guide.
The main problem with heavily guided story in an MMO is replayability. Once you go through it one time, you cant really enjoy a seperate and different experience the second time. The concept you totally and completely miss is that a live DM is not the same as a script or program. People read books once and watch a movie once and dont go back to it unless it was truly amazing and great or after time has passed for the memory to fade a bit.
The biggest problem with this arguement isn't about story at all really. Its more about people wanting cake and eating it too. They want to be handheld and guided and given the story but when they want it and not be told what to do. They want to follow a story when its good, break away and do their own thing and maybe skip parts and jump back in. They want the freedom to do what they want at the same time as being told and shown a great story. That doesn't exist.
I've not played SWTOR yet. Dont plan to until things settle down a bit. But I can say I am sorely dissapointed in space combat (its literally on rails). The story aspects haven't been things I like unless it can pull off story like Skyrim did and make some really cool quests and mini-stories. But really, MMOs that force story down your throat only make it get in the way when alts come into play.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story.
Bullshit, the first rules you hear from experienced DMs is:
ITS NOT YOUR STORY!
DO NOT TRY TO TELL A STORY!
THE PLAYERS TELL THE STORY!
YOU ARE JUST THERE TO PROVIDE THE RULES! YOU ARE A PASSIVE GOD NOT AN ACTIVE ONE! YOU DO NOT INTERVENE AS LONG AS ITS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!
Yeah, shitty DMs will make up a railway adventure, but thats shitty DMing.
I think the OP took D&D as an example of the classic RPGs, because it's a game most of people have at least heard of. Agreed, it's not the best example, because at the basic D&D was designed to be a pretty linear system.
Maybe a better example could have been World of Darkness, FATE or another storytelling RPG system, but let's face it, a very small minority have probably ever even heard of those systems.
The point is still valid, SWTOR and other similar themepark games restricts the players more than most PnP games do, to the point where the choices the player makes are almost insignificant.
I also agree with the OP that a pre-canned story is not what the MMO genre currently needs. It's not roleplaying to make choices which actually have no consequences.
Well that point goes without saying. No video game will ever allow so many so much freedom. ALL pnp rpg's, no matter how non-mainstream (I have played many systems) still only has a very few players in them ... no thousands. MMO's have become a separate genre to accomidate so many players. These players "think" they have freedom but in fact they don't. If you logged into nearly any mainstream mmo you still are restricted by the games physics, class structure or skill system and can only play on the maps provided and nowhere else outside your level/skill range.
The issue with these threads is that opinion is being laced with facts with hope to support said opinions. You believe that pre-canned story is not what the entire mmo genre needs but miss the point that Swtor ISN'T the mmo genre. It is ONE game. Bioware stated from day one that is it KOTOR sequals all rolled into one. If you were told you were getting a blue sweater for Christmas for 364 days since last Christmas and then on the next Christmas day you complain and question why you didn't get a red one who is the idiot in that situation?
Swtor isn't the representative for an entire genre. It is a game. A game just like Bioware has made before. They haven't made Super Sandbox Tales rpg previously and they certainly aren't making Super Sandbox Tales Online this time around. They made KOTOR Online ... just like they said they were making for the last 3+ years.
EA Bioware has no say what over what any other developer may do. Making Swtor does not suddenly make every other mmo over the next 10 years be just like it. There are other games out there. They are all very differnt in many ways. But if you want to play KOTOR 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 along with hundreds of others this time around then Swtor is EXACTLY what Bioware intended to make. Like it or not.
Swtor isn't the Star Wars I would have made or honestly what I prefer to play but it certainly is granting me and my friends many hours of enjoyment thus far. In fact I am finding it more open than most previous themepark games and about 5 times more open and less tunnel or hub driven feel than Rift. It's only drawback in my mind is not allowing alternative level paths earlier on much like Wow did to further hide you from the path.
I think the OP took D&D as an example of the classic RPGs, because it's a game most of people have at least heard of. Agreed, it's not the best example, because at the basic D&D was designed to be a pretty linear system.
Maybe a better example could have been World of Darkness, FATE or another storytelling RPG system, but let's face it, a very small minority have probably ever even heard of those systems.
The point is still valid, SWTOR and other similar themepark games restricts the players more than most PnP games do, to the point where the choices the player makes are almost insignificant.
I also agree with the OP that a pre-canned story is not what the MMO genre currently needs. It's not roleplaying to make choices which actually have no consequences.
Well that point goes without saying. No video game will ever allow so many so much freedom. ALL pnp rpg's, no matter how non-mainstream (I have played many systems) still only has a very few players in them ... no thousands. MMO's have become a separate genre to accomidate so many players. These players "think" they have freedom but in fact they don't. If you logged into nearly any mainstream mmo you still are restricted by the games physics, class structure or skill system and can only play on the maps provided and nowhere else outside your level/skill range.
The issue with these threads is that opinion is being laced with facts with hope to support said opinions. You believe that pre-canned story is not what the entire mmo genre needs but miss the point that Swtor ISN'T the mmo genre. It is ONE game. Bioware stated from day one that is it KOTOR sequals all rolled into one. If you were told you were getting a blue sweater for Christmas for 364 days since last Christmas and then on the next Christmas day you complain and question why you didn't get a red one who is the idiot in that situation?
Swtor isn't the representative for an entire genre. It is a game. A game just like Bioware has made before. They haven't made Super Sandbox Tales rpg previously and they certainly aren't making Super Sandbox Tales Online this time around. They made KOTOR Online ... just like they said they were making for the last 3+ years.
EA Bioware has no say what over what any other developer may do. Making Swtor does not suddenly make every other mmo over the next 10 years be just like it. There are other games out there. They are all very differnt in many ways. But if you want to play KOTOR 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 along with hundreds of others this time around then Swtor is EXACTLY what Bioware intended to make. Like it or not.
Swtor isn't the Star Wars I would have made or honestly what I prefer to play but it certainly is granting me and my friends many hours of enjoyment thus far. In fact I am finding it more open than most previous themepark games and about 5 times more open and less tunnel or hub driven feel than Rift. It's only drawback in my mind is not allowing alternative level paths earlier on much like Wow did to further hide you from the path.
Yes, but their comments aside, both the gaming press and players have placed high expectations on this game to revolutionize the genre, and invent the next great thing in MMOs, if not the WOW-Killer. I never made that claim, but so many other people have, and because those people have placed that specific emphasis on the game and it's specific emphasis on the genre, I believe it does have a major impact on the genre. Not because of what it is or isn't, or claims surrounding it, but because of psychology and perceptions. Something is, if it is believed to be.
So therefore, because people believe it has the weight of the genre that it might or might not, it is the representative of a genre. This is because the press and players, not its developers, have placed that title on its shoulders.
EA Bioware has no say what over what any other developer may do. Making Swtor does not suddenly make every other mmo over the next 10 years be just like it. There are other games out there. They are all very differnt in many ways. But if you want to play KOTOR 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 along with hundreds of others this time around then Swtor is EXACTLY what Bioware intended to make. Like it or not.
They do not have a say directly, but indirectly yes.
I don't like the trend the MMOs are going to. Dumbing down content. Making it more solo-friendly. Instancing areas so that people can play their single player game without being bothered by the other players playing the same game!
In 5 years is all that is left of the MMO genre just a graphical multiplayer lobby and a bunch of single player instances? Is this what players really want?
There are other games out there, yes. Unfortunately all the AAA titles published in the last few years have been carbon copies of World of Warcraft. Just like SWTOR is.
Guess I'll just place my faith in GW2, ArcheAge and TSW. Not ALL of them can fail, right?
The premise that story will save the MMO(RPG) genre is false. Specifically story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into attributes. Not to say that story is (or should be) absent from role-playing, but it is not (nor should be) the all-encompassing element that modern game designers seem to think it is. Role-Playing encompasses the acts and decisions that the player takes in order to make their character their own –the constructing their characters into a unique manifestation of their will. Role-playing a character in an RPG is no different from the processes we all went through as children playing with action figures. We created personas and personalities, histories and previous adventures which defined those characters’ natures. We invented adventures on the fly for them to participate in, with specific outcomes. Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal.
Story is defined as, “A usually fictional prose or verse narrative intended to interest or amuse the hearer or reader.” The key word used in this definition is narrative, which is defined as, “Consisting of or characterized by the telling of a story.” The point here is that story is narrative, or narration, being that a story in of itself involves no interactivity in its experience. You, the reader or the participator are a passive participant, and therefore do not have any influence in the events that you are reading, seeing, or are otherwise witnessing. This is typical of film and literature, but is a recent occurrence in gaming. The precursor of role-playing computer gaming was table-top and board games, the most influential of these was D&D (Dungeons and Dragons). The appeal of D&D was that stories were created on the fly, and the participatory players were free to design and develop stories for their characters and how they would also advance and develop their characters within that paradigm. Essentially, the story and character development wasn’t a prior design; it was developed on the fly, and ‘in-the-moment’. There was no linear story; it evolved as the participants needed it to. These players were free to design the backgrounds, personas, personalities, and whatever other personification of their characters they wished.
Skipping forward, the first MMO(RPG)s took this concept as a fundamental design characterization, wherein players were free to shape the world they lived within. Just as was the case with D&D, there was no previously designed story, the players could develop their own characters as they saw fit with the tools the developers had created for them.
The linear story driven RPG is not a result of role-playing, it is a shallow and base distortion of what role-playing really is. By limiting participants to a strict and specific story, developers are not catering to role-playing; they are in fact limiting it.
The first D&D were actually rather linear as well. You went into a dungeon and killed stuff, that was it.
It wasn't until AD&D and Runequest came out that the P&P stories really came into focus.
My view is that a MMO should tell a great story, no matter if it is a sandbox or a themepark. For a sandbox that means you need to make the tools to create that story to the players, and so far has no game been close to that (even though the dev blogs from WoD suggests that it might change).
What you are saying is that sandbox games are better than themeparks, and that is an opinion, not a fact. I personally think that MMOs could use some more freedom and that goes for both types.
But I still think Bioware is at least on the right track here, just accepting every quest like in EQ is rather boring, being able to talk yourself through some things is a rather new concept in MMOs.
I am not sure that roleplaying is the correct term here though. Roleplaying is about you imagening that you really are your character, and you don't have to do that to click through the story.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story.
Bullshit, the first rules you hear from experienced DMs is:
ITS NOT YOUR STORY!
DO NOT TRY TO TELL A STORY!
THE PLAYERS TELL THE STORY!
YOU ARE JUST THERE TO PROVIDE THE RULES! YOU ARE A PASSIVE GOD NOT AN ACTIVE ONE! YOU DO NOT INTERVENE AS LONG AS ITS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!
Yeah, shitty DMs will make up a railway adventure, but thats shitty DMing.
It is video game emulation. Of course you are railroaded more into story hence the option to play different stories. Every single themepark previously was just a jumble if mini-stories you had ZERO control over.
Also I never once mentioned a DM should railroad the adventure. The players however DO NOT tell the story. They are part of it and assist in driving the story. The best DM's can make up stories on the fly to adjust to the players. A player character may have goals and interests which lead the story in many directions but only one or a very few can be taken on at once. If retold in a narrative it would script out just like any novel would. This is the point ... the point you choose to ignore.
I cannot assist you with reaching an understanding of the truth when you simply disregard my true meaning out of blind interest in starting a flame war (your caps prove it). I even said a good DM is fair but simply must drive story. It is too bad you play in such terrible rpg games where the DM is nothing but a passive rule judge and the players rampage across the world like pillaging hordes. I clearly set an example with the Dragonlance Chronicles. The world is a vibrant and living place with nations, politics and armies. Your characters may wany to set up their little castle and plant their chickens but even the most catering "god" will not stop those armies from walking over the characters simply because they want some personal freedom.
If you stop missing the point entirely you will reread what I said (instead of skimming for words that further enlight your rage) you will see that rpg's are story. That story is generated by DM/GM and player interaction. The genre sets the nature of the story however. It could be high/low fantasy, high/low adventure which means the players have varying degrees of power within that world. Sometimes the DM sets you on a tight path and sometimes you enjoy many freedoms. Swtor does exactly that as best as an mmo can when emulating such depth of story. If a rpg game sets it genre, it's playstyle and depth of story befitting what Swtor offers then you very much see how Swtor emulates an rpg better than many before it.
Simple fact is (beyond what any specific genre approach it may have taken) Bioware made the game they promised. Now you can continue to argue about the sun not being purple (damn yellow!) or go play the game or choose not to. You could head to the Eve forums and whine it isn't themepark enough or even pop over to Wow and question why it's absolutely nothing like what Warcraft was like to begin with. So many pointless things to bitch about really.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story. Any game where the players create the story simply out of their own interests is an obomination to the concept of D&D. That sort of game is pure 4th wall and exploiting the narative just so players can profit on their own terms. If this is how the OP plays D&D or thinks it is played he has horribly warped it's intended concept.
This, I play alot of D&D, and the only reason I have any say in teh world is purely because were a tight knit group, most D&D games the DM does all teh work, its no differant than playing a videogame with its own story.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story.
Bullshit, the first rules you hear from experienced DMs is:
ITS NOT YOUR STORY!
DO NOT TRY TO TELL A STORY!
THE PLAYERS TELL THE STORY!
YOU ARE JUST THERE TO PROVIDE THE RULES! YOU ARE A PASSIVE GOD NOT AN ACTIVE ONE! YOU DO NOT INTERVENE AS LONG AS ITS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!
Yeah, shitty DMs will make up a railway adventure, but thats shitty DMing.
You are both in ways wrong with D&D as all rpgs pnp versions are about telling a story that your playyers create via how they enanct their characetr's role within. A shitty dm will force choices, create singular ways of progression, and pigeon hole people into thier choices with various methods. A goodd dm will create a story with some fixed points to progress the story, and adress issues as they arrise. But a greate Dm knows hwo to "plan" for what happens in a group wiht rarely having fallen for somethign that they did not have somethign planed for it.
In all of my games evertime some thign happened in the game, talking to a npc, taking missions, finding items it had several dozen or more possible thigns the players could do with a event that corrosponds to it. I have spent a month developing the story and events fo the story that happen nto a point that i have masked that evey action, and choce they could make was already deterimined hwo it would effect the story. Also most people who have played D&D played with fghter Dms that based most if not all of the content on fiht, any good Dm knows hwo much interesting and entensive work as well as depth their is to D&D in many other areas. For most of my games we would have a hand ful of combat fights in a story arc, with most of it being convos, or rping to gain info and working thru the world va other means. THough most player and people prefer to fight in rpgs, and cann't deny that is true just look at games and you will see it is. In all honesty the D&D systems are vary complex if you know how to use them, and have the coorrect edition.
The premise that story will save the MMO(RPG) genre is false. Specifically story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into attributes. Not to say that story is (or should be) absent from role-playing, but it is not (nor should be) the all-encompassing element that modern game designers seem to think it is. Role-Playing encompasses the acts and decisions that the player takes in order to make their character their own –the constructing their characters into a unique manifestation of their will. Role-playing a character in an RPG is no different from the processes we all went through as children playing with action figures. We created personas and personalities, histories and previous adventures which defined those characters’ natures. We invented adventures on the fly for them to participate in, with specific outcomes. Completing a static set of quests towards fufillment of a narrative, is not role-playing, it's a book piecemeal.
Story is defined as, “A usually fictional prose or verse narrative intended to interest or amuse the hearer or reader.” The key word used in this definition is narrative, which is defined as, “Consisting of or characterized by the telling of a story.” The point here is that story is narrative, or narration, being that a story in of itself involves no interactivity in its experience. You, the reader or the participator are a passive participant, and therefore do not have any influence in the events that you are reading, seeing, or are otherwise witnessing. This is typical of film and literature, but is a recent occurrence in gaming. The precursor of role-playing computer gaming was table-top and board games, the most influential of these was D&D (Dungeons and Dragons). The appeal of D&D was that stories were created on the fly, and the participatory players were free to design and develop stories for their characters and how they would also advance and develop their characters within that paradigm. Essentially, the story and character development wasn’t a prior design; it was developed on the fly, and ‘in-the-moment’. There was no linear story; it evolved as the participants needed it to. These players were free to design the backgrounds, personas, personalities, and whatever other personification of their characters they wished.
Skipping forward, the first MMO(RPG)s took this concept as a fundamental design characterization, wherein players were free to shape the world they lived within. Just as was the case with D&D, there was no previously designed story, the players could develop their own characters as they saw fit with the tools the developers had created for them.
The linear story driven RPG is not a result of role-playing, it is a shallow and base distortion of what role-playing really is. By limiting participants to a strict and specific story, developers are not catering to role-playing; they are in fact limiting it.
The first D&D were actually rather linear as well. You went into a dungeon and killed stuff, that was it.
It wasn't until AD&D and Runequest came out that the P&P stories really came into focus.
My view is that a MMO should tell a great story, no matter if it is a sandbox or a themepark. For a sandbox that means you need to make the tools to create that story to the players, and so far has no game been close to that (even though the dev blogs from WoD suggests that it might change).
What you are saying is that sandbox games are better than themeparks, and that is an opinion, not a fact. I personally think that MMOs could use some more freedom and that goes for both types.
But I still think Bioware is at least on the right track here, just accepting every quest like in EQ is rather boring, being able to talk yourself through some things is a rather new concept in MMOs.
I am not sure that roleplaying is the correct term here though. Roleplaying is about you imagening that you really are your character, and you don't have to do that to click through the story.
My favorite mmo of all time was Asheron's Call. Now seeing that nearly all mmo's since (certainly main AAA fantasy) have gone themepark you can imagine how pleased I am (Grrr). But when a developer states clearly for 3+ years exactly how they plan on making a game and then make that exact game I simply feel it pointless to argue the point and to judge the game for what it is.
The end result is this: I and several of my friends are having a blast in Swtor. I have to stomach certain restrictions inherent with the story mechanic they chose but acknowledge that at times I am allowed to change the outcomes and path of my character with those same mechanics. (you truly do feel challenged on some light/dark choices and can set your characters mind on certain subjects and events).
I hated WAR, hated Rift, hated Wow for what it became and can't even log into any asian themepark ... but Swtor is simply a pretty damn good game and just like most games people buy, may not be played much after a certain time until content brings me back. Who's to know really.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story.
Bullshit, the first rules you hear from experienced DMs is:
ITS NOT YOUR STORY!
DO NOT TRY TO TELL A STORY!
THE PLAYERS TELL THE STORY!
YOU ARE JUST THERE TO PROVIDE THE RULES! YOU ARE A PASSIVE GOD NOT AN ACTIVE ONE! YOU DO NOT INTERVENE AS LONG AS ITS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!
Yeah, shitty DMs will make up a railway adventure, but thats shitty DMing.
It is video game emulation. Of course you are railroaded more into story hence the option to play different stories. Every single themepark previously was just a jumble if mini-stories you had ZERO control over.
Also I never once mentioned a DM should railroad the adventure. The players however DO NOT tell the story. They are part of it and assist in driving the story. The best DM's can make up stories on the fly to adjust to the players. A player character may have goals and interests which lead the story in many directions but only one or a very few can be taken on at once. If retold in a narrative it would script out just like any novel would. This is the point ... the point you choose to ignore.
I cannot assist you with reaching an understanding of the truth when you simply disregard my true meaning out of blind interest in starting a flame war (your caps prove it). I even said a good DM is fair but simply must drive story. It is too bad you play in such terrible rpg games where the DM is nothing but a passive rule judge and the players rampage across the world like pillaging hordes. I clearly set an example with the Dragonlance Chronicles. The world is a vibrant and living place with nations, politics and armies. Your characters may wany to set up their little castle and plant their chickens but even the most catering "god" will not stop those armies from walking over the characters simply because they want some personal freedom.
If you stop missing the point entirely you will reread what I said (instead of skimming for words that further enlight your rage) you will see that rpg's are story. That story is generated by DM/GM and player interaction. The genre sets the nature of the story however. It could be high/low fantasy, high/low adventure which means the players have varying degrees of power within that world. Sometimes the DM sets you on a tight path and sometimes you enjoy many freedoms. Swtor does exactly that as best as an mmo can when emulating such depth of story. If a rpg game sets it genre, it's playstyle and depth of story befitting what Swtor offers then you very much see how Swtor emulates an rpg better than many before it.
Simple fact is (beyond what any specific genre approach it may have taken) Bioware made the game they promised. Now you can continue to argue about the sun not being purple (damn yellow!) or go play the game or choose not to. You could head to the Eve forums and whine it isn't themepark enough or even pop over to Wow and question why it's absolutely nothing like what Warcraft was like to begin with. So many pointless things to bitch about really.
At this point i question you ever played any PnP game or tried to run any in a capacity of a DM.
Newb DMs run adventure modules, experienced groups run freeform adventures. That is a fact from my 10+ years of PnP.
Comments
Do you play many sandbox-style MMOs? If not, then I can completely understnad why such design is foreign to you.
When people talk about creating their own story through choices, they are not talking about backstory and bio, but about the story of their character or guild as created through their actions in game.
If you ask a player of LOTRO, EQ, Rift or WOW to relay their first month of gameplay, you would probably get the same sequence of events from each oneof them. This is because the game provides the story and the player actions sequentially unlock each piece of the tale. Like the Final Fantasy game series, players are playing to progress their character to the next chapter of the tale they are walking through.
If you ask a player of UO, ATITD, Puzzle Pirates or EVE to relay their first month, you will get a wide range of replies within each game, as the player's choices define their path and future options. The story sin't just at the player level, but at the guild and even server level. While the developers may have their own ridiculous and unrelated plot running, the player creations, alliances and conquests write the history of the server as it evolves.
For example, history of a WOW server would look something like this:
- players grinding, some farming
- players still grinding, some still farming
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [dungeon]
- [guild] beats [raid]
- [guild] beats [raid]
- [guild] beats [raid]
- [guild] beats [raid]
However, if you look at the evolving story that the players played through inthe process, there was a rich histroy of events and conflicts at play which the players revealed to their characters as they leveled through.
Server history for a game where players write their own story may look something like this or this.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Royalkin explained what i was triyng to explain better than i could. my view is almost identical to his.
And yes i have played plenty of sandbox. but SWTOR isnt a sandbox game. understand. its a game that gets put under the WoW,Rift, and EQ catagory.
Gah typos shouldnt be doing this at 7am
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Ok, so basically it's a straw man you're running with, as no one has said or even implied what you claim inthe OP. I kinda thought that was the case.
"if you don't want my original post is referencing, I have to ask... Have you been living under a rock?"
As you pointed out (thanks for the quotes!) the devs said they were emphasizing story in SWTOR. Where you got that they said it would 'save the genre' or that it an 'all-encompassing element' when they clearly stated (and you even quoted) that is was one of the four main components of the game, is still unanswered.
Cheers!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nice try, but no, it's not a strawman argument. The fact that they intend to revolutionize the MMO is implied in those quotes, and I think any reasonable educated person can see that. Secondly, how is "brings a new dimension to the MMO experience by putting story front and center." not placing a heavy central emphasis on story? The majority of the content in SWTOR is based on story, therefore if that is the case, then story is an all-ecompasing element.
UPDATE: Another quote proving my point. "Star Wars: The Old Republic stands as one of the greatest and most ambitious achievements in video game history." (http://www.swtor.com/news/press-release/20111223, Beginning of the fifth paragraph. This statement seems infatic to me that to claim this proves they had a preconceived thought beforehand, which is pure PR and hype.
Honestly the idea of it being a Game saving thing vanished pretty early in the posts. and oh dont worry i do agree that going overboard with it is bad. thats what Bioware did, they clearly went overboard. but it is one of the main 4 things that are needed, in this style of MMO.
it seems more like what your doing is taking the current hit, finding a low point and going "well sandbox is better traditional because of this" instead of saying, Yeah The overdone story is a lowpoint of SWTOR. i could give a rats ass about SWTOR really. i still feel Story needs to be a main part, but not THE main part.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
The genre saving statement is based on the plethora of comments made by people claiming that, I don't know that a dev made that claim anywhere, and I never claimed they did. I never used the term sandbox in my original post, and it wasn't intended to be a sandbox versus thempark discussion.
Yes, story needs to exist in some fashion, and most likely as lore or a general background story where the player might run into it from time to time, but it shouldn't be the main factor of the game.
Rofl dont argue with me i agree with you.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Wasn't arguing, just clarifying.
It has been said on just about every game-show I visited, live by the people presenting the game.
Obviously this is anecdotal, but they did say it quite clearly. I think Shamus Young mentioned it also in one of his interviews and TOR coverages.
Seriously, they were pushing the story and VO as revolutionizing the genre.
PS: im looking for the quote, to be added later.
{mod edit}
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story. Any game where the players create the story simply out of their own interests is an obomination to the concept of D&D. That sort of game is pure 4th wall and exploiting the narative just so players can profit on their own terms. If this is how the OP plays D&D or thinks it is played he has horribly warped it's intended concept.
Modern mmo's would not exist without rpg's. Their soul purpose was to emulate that experience in a video game. The DM sets the scene, acts out the characters and foes that interact with the players and the players act out responses according to their characte concepts. The characters gain xp and progress within the mechanics of their class. There are certain options (typically feats, talents and ac's) allowed. D&D has always been a mix of the so called themepark and sandbox. However, it is the DM who sets restrictions. The players cannot be allowed to simply do what they want when they want. Sadly craptastic DM's allow this as player groups become nothing but a collection of DM's and no long the single DM and players. The best player is one who has the ability to 'pretend' they know no rules and simply live in the world presented to them. A good DM is one who wields all the power yet acts fair and balanced against the world presented. I feel the OP has no concept of this.
In D&D the player visually imagines the world they are in (the graphics), interacts with the npc's of the world with voice (DM's voice and theirs), progresses through the story presented to them that has a begining and an end point but can choose to side track to do the things that interest them when allowed within the story. Do you see the similarities?
In Swtor the world is presented visually to the players, npc's have full voice and players are given options befitting their character concept, characters choose their gear and talent paths, story progresses forward but they have time to swing to other worlds, do heroics, pvp, flash points, crafting, etc. Do you now see the similarities?
You think sandbox is what D&D is? You are horribly wrong. Bioware is the DM. We are the players following their story. More and more options are promised to us to allow further customization (guild ships, expanded space combat, more planets, more story, more open world pvp, etc). The OP has completely lost sight of what old school rpg is or has never understood it. Story has always been the PRIMARY and ONLY driving force in old school D&D. Go play the Dragonlance Chronicles series and tell me you have pure freedom to sandbox your character. You will only be a bug squashed by global war that is the story.
Swtor is what it is. It is story and a lot of the ability to play with others within the story. I have played with 2-3 other players every day since day one of EGA with others in our guild swapping in and out and even the randon invite or group. You can choose to group or choose to solo. You gain social points when grouping and there are tons of heroics to do and at level 28 have been through 5 different flashpojnts. I have grouped with 2 or more over the last 7 days more than I bothered to group in a month in Wow. I group with players who I game with regularly just like in D&D. Never in D&D over the last 30 years have I EVER played with more than 6-7 players and normally the DM and 3-5 players. Very few in the history of rpg's has anyone ever had hundreds of different players rotate through their groups, had 20+ man raid kills fests in one evening or shared their homes with dozens of others standing around yelling crap they want to sell or to steal players for their own groups.
So OP ... it turns out Swtor is much more like D&D and ANY previous mmo (even D&D online which is small groups but nearly zero story and open world ... swtor actually has one of the more open mmo worlds out there). {mod edit}
You stay sassy!
Likely because this game is one of the definitions provided when people look up "Korean Grinder MMO"
I think the OP took D&D as an example of the classic RPGs, because it's a game most of people have at least heard of. Agreed, it's not the best example, because at the basic D&D was designed to be a pretty linear system.
Maybe a better example could have been World of Darkness, FATE or another storytelling RPG system, but let's face it, a very small minority have probably ever even heard of those systems.
The point is still valid, SWTOR and other similar themepark games restricts the players more than most PnP games do, to the point where the choices the player makes are almost insignificant.
I also agree with the OP that a pre-canned story is not what the MMO genre currently needs. It's not roleplaying to make choices which actually have no consequences.
First, of all there is no need to be vulgar, and I don't take kindly to your opening statement. It's fine to discuss criticisms and opposing viewpoints, but don't be an ass and make it personal.
However, I should have thought of a better example than D&D, but in my experience with it, the DM gave us flexibility in where the story went. We couldn't radically change the entire story, but there was still alot of freedom in where the story went. My point is that the story as presented wasn't predefined nor dictatorial, and while the DM might have some threads he was working from, he wasn't a Nazi about it, but also we had freedom with the development of our characters. Moreso though is the concept that ANY story we worked from was born out of imagination and what we were doing 'in-the-moment', and not the product of some pre-conceived set in stone narrative.
The story in SWTOR on the other hand is the only thing driving the game forward, and the vast majority of content is designed around that philosophy. Because of this, the game is dictatorial in its approach to story, thus heavily limiting the options players have for the development of their characters.
I actually have to disagree with your premise of the DM being the storyteller and players just riding the story. Partly, because what is highlighted in blue is dead on correct. What is in red is not only contradictory to itself (I mean, really contradictory), but also not entirely true.
What happens is that the DM sets up the story. And, for the most part that story gets played out. But rarely will it ever go the way the DM envisioned it if the DM is worth anything. Players become just as frustrated if the restrictions are overbearing as they do in MMOs like that. There is freedom of movement and choice required. And sometimes, blatant mutiny and change of story happens. Why? Because D&D is both themepark and sandbox like you said. A good DM knows that sometimes player, acting in thier alignment and roles, can 180 on a story and it be legit and the DM must compensate and recreate story or alter it or come back to it later. And this isn't what you call a bunch of DMs and players, its a good story that partially writes itself with a guide.
The main problem with heavily guided story in an MMO is replayability. Once you go through it one time, you cant really enjoy a seperate and different experience the second time. The concept you totally and completely miss is that a live DM is not the same as a script or program. People read books once and watch a movie once and dont go back to it unless it was truly amazing and great or after time has passed for the memory to fade a bit.
The biggest problem with this arguement isn't about story at all really. Its more about people wanting cake and eating it too. They want to be handheld and guided and given the story but when they want it and not be told what to do. They want to follow a story when its good, break away and do their own thing and maybe skip parts and jump back in. They want the freedom to do what they want at the same time as being told and shown a great story. That doesn't exist.
I've not played SWTOR yet. Dont plan to until things settle down a bit. But I can say I am sorely dissapointed in space combat (its literally on rails). The story aspects haven't been things I like unless it can pull off story like Skyrim did and make some really cool quests and mini-stories. But really, MMOs that force story down your throat only make it get in the way when alts come into play.
Bullshit, the first rules you hear from experienced DMs is:
ITS NOT YOUR STORY!
DO NOT TRY TO TELL A STORY!
THE PLAYERS TELL THE STORY!
YOU ARE JUST THERE TO PROVIDE THE RULES! YOU ARE A PASSIVE GOD NOT AN ACTIVE ONE! YOU DO NOT INTERVENE AS LONG AS ITS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!
Yeah, shitty DMs will make up a railway adventure, but thats shitty DMing.
Well that point goes without saying. No video game will ever allow so many so much freedom. ALL pnp rpg's, no matter how non-mainstream (I have played many systems) still only has a very few players in them ... no thousands. MMO's have become a separate genre to accomidate so many players. These players "think" they have freedom but in fact they don't. If you logged into nearly any mainstream mmo you still are restricted by the games physics, class structure or skill system and can only play on the maps provided and nowhere else outside your level/skill range.
The issue with these threads is that opinion is being laced with facts with hope to support said opinions. You believe that pre-canned story is not what the entire mmo genre needs but miss the point that Swtor ISN'T the mmo genre. It is ONE game. Bioware stated from day one that is it KOTOR sequals all rolled into one. If you were told you were getting a blue sweater for Christmas for 364 days since last Christmas and then on the next Christmas day you complain and question why you didn't get a red one who is the idiot in that situation?
Swtor isn't the representative for an entire genre. It is a game. A game just like Bioware has made before. They haven't made Super Sandbox Tales rpg previously and they certainly aren't making Super Sandbox Tales Online this time around. They made KOTOR Online ... just like they said they were making for the last 3+ years.
EA Bioware has no say what over what any other developer may do. Making Swtor does not suddenly make every other mmo over the next 10 years be just like it. There are other games out there. They are all very differnt in many ways. But if you want to play KOTOR 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 along with hundreds of others this time around then Swtor is EXACTLY what Bioware intended to make. Like it or not.
Swtor isn't the Star Wars I would have made or honestly what I prefer to play but it certainly is granting me and my friends many hours of enjoyment thus far. In fact I am finding it more open than most previous themepark games and about 5 times more open and less tunnel or hub driven feel than Rift. It's only drawback in my mind is not allowing alternative level paths earlier on much like Wow did to further hide you from the path.
You stay sassy!
Yes, but their comments aside, both the gaming press and players have placed high expectations on this game to revolutionize the genre, and invent the next great thing in MMOs, if not the WOW-Killer. I never made that claim, but so many other people have, and because those people have placed that specific emphasis on the game and it's specific emphasis on the genre, I believe it does have a major impact on the genre. Not because of what it is or isn't, or claims surrounding it, but because of psychology and perceptions. Something is, if it is believed to be.
So therefore, because people believe it has the weight of the genre that it might or might not, it is the representative of a genre. This is because the press and players, not its developers, have placed that title on its shoulders.
They do not have a say directly, but indirectly yes.
I don't like the trend the MMOs are going to. Dumbing down content. Making it more solo-friendly. Instancing areas so that people can play their single player game without being bothered by the other players playing the same game!
In 5 years is all that is left of the MMO genre just a graphical multiplayer lobby and a bunch of single player instances? Is this what players really want?
There are other games out there, yes. Unfortunately all the AAA titles published in the last few years have been carbon copies of World of Warcraft. Just like SWTOR is.
Guess I'll just place my faith in GW2, ArcheAge and TSW. Not ALL of them can fail, right?
The first D&D were actually rather linear as well. You went into a dungeon and killed stuff, that was it.
It wasn't until AD&D and Runequest came out that the P&P stories really came into focus.
My view is that a MMO should tell a great story, no matter if it is a sandbox or a themepark. For a sandbox that means you need to make the tools to create that story to the players, and so far has no game been close to that (even though the dev blogs from WoD suggests that it might change).
What you are saying is that sandbox games are better than themeparks, and that is an opinion, not a fact. I personally think that MMOs could use some more freedom and that goes for both types.
But I still think Bioware is at least on the right track here, just accepting every quest like in EQ is rather boring, being able to talk yourself through some things is a rather new concept in MMOs.
I am not sure that roleplaying is the correct term here though. Roleplaying is about you imagening that you really are your character, and you don't have to do that to click through the story.
It is video game emulation. Of course you are railroaded more into story hence the option to play different stories. Every single themepark previously was just a jumble if mini-stories you had ZERO control over.
Also I never once mentioned a DM should railroad the adventure. The players however DO NOT tell the story. They are part of it and assist in driving the story. The best DM's can make up stories on the fly to adjust to the players. A player character may have goals and interests which lead the story in many directions but only one or a very few can be taken on at once. If retold in a narrative it would script out just like any novel would. This is the point ... the point you choose to ignore.
I cannot assist you with reaching an understanding of the truth when you simply disregard my true meaning out of blind interest in starting a flame war (your caps prove it). I even said a good DM is fair but simply must drive story. It is too bad you play in such terrible rpg games where the DM is nothing but a passive rule judge and the players rampage across the world like pillaging hordes. I clearly set an example with the Dragonlance Chronicles. The world is a vibrant and living place with nations, politics and armies. Your characters may wany to set up their little castle and plant their chickens but even the most catering "god" will not stop those armies from walking over the characters simply because they want some personal freedom.
If you stop missing the point entirely you will reread what I said (instead of skimming for words that further enlight your rage) you will see that rpg's are story. That story is generated by DM/GM and player interaction. The genre sets the nature of the story however. It could be high/low fantasy, high/low adventure which means the players have varying degrees of power within that world. Sometimes the DM sets you on a tight path and sometimes you enjoy many freedoms. Swtor does exactly that as best as an mmo can when emulating such depth of story. If a rpg game sets it genre, it's playstyle and depth of story befitting what Swtor offers then you very much see how Swtor emulates an rpg better than many before it.
Simple fact is (beyond what any specific genre approach it may have taken) Bioware made the game they promised. Now you can continue to argue about the sun not being purple (damn yellow!) or go play the game or choose not to. You could head to the Eve forums and whine it isn't themepark enough or even pop over to Wow and question why it's absolutely nothing like what Warcraft was like to begin with. So many pointless things to bitch about really.
You stay sassy!
This, I play alot of D&D, and the only reason I have any say in teh world is purely because were a tight knit group, most D&D games the DM does all teh work, its no differant than playing a videogame with its own story.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
You are both in ways wrong with D&D as all rpgs pnp versions are about telling a story that your playyers create via how they enanct their characetr's role within. A shitty dm will force choices, create singular ways of progression, and pigeon hole people into thier choices with various methods. A goodd dm will create a story with some fixed points to progress the story, and adress issues as they arrise. But a greate Dm knows hwo to "plan" for what happens in a group wiht rarely having fallen for somethign that they did not have somethign planed for it.
In all of my games evertime some thign happened in the game, talking to a npc, taking missions, finding items it had several dozen or more possible thigns the players could do with a event that corrosponds to it. I have spent a month developing the story and events fo the story that happen nto a point that i have masked that evey action, and choce they could make was already deterimined hwo it would effect the story. Also most people who have played D&D played with fghter Dms that based most if not all of the content on fiht, any good Dm knows hwo much interesting and entensive work as well as depth their is to D&D in many other areas. For most of my games we would have a hand ful of combat fights in a story arc, with most of it being convos, or rping to gain info and working thru the world va other means. THough most player and people prefer to fight in rpgs, and cann't deny that is true just look at games and you will see it is. In all honesty the D&D systems are vary complex if you know how to use them, and have the coorrect edition.
My favorite mmo of all time was Asheron's Call. Now seeing that nearly all mmo's since (certainly main AAA fantasy) have gone themepark you can imagine how pleased I am (Grrr). But when a developer states clearly for 3+ years exactly how they plan on making a game and then make that exact game I simply feel it pointless to argue the point and to judge the game for what it is.
The end result is this: I and several of my friends are having a blast in Swtor. I have to stomach certain restrictions inherent with the story mechanic they chose but acknowledge that at times I am allowed to change the outcomes and path of my character with those same mechanics. (you truly do feel challenged on some light/dark choices and can set your characters mind on certain subjects and events).
I hated WAR, hated Rift, hated Wow for what it became and can't even log into any asian themepark ... but Swtor is simply a pretty damn good game and just like most games people buy, may not be played much after a certain time until content brings me back. Who's to know really.
You stay sassy!
Theres no such thing as a correct DnD edition.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
At this point i question you ever played any PnP game or tried to run any in a capacity of a DM.
Newb DMs run adventure modules, experienced groups run freeform adventures. That is a fact from my 10+ years of PnP.