I only read page 1, but am I right in thinking this is an argument about sandbox v themepark. Nothing to do with TOR really, other than critisising because it's not a sandbox?
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story.
Bullshit, the first rules you hear from experienced DMs is:
ITS NOT YOUR STORY!
DO NOT TRY TO TELL A STORY!
THE PLAYERS TELL THE STORY!
YOU ARE JUST THERE TO PROVIDE THE RULES! YOU ARE A PASSIVE GOD NOT AN ACTIVE ONE! YOU DO NOT INTERVENE AS LONG AS ITS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!
Yeah, shitty DMs will make up a railway adventure, but thats shitty DMing.
I somewhat disagree.
The DM creates the story spine, the building blocks, the encounters. It's how the players act and react to these encounters that create their own unique experience.
It's a collaborative effort.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I only read page 1, but am I right in thinking this is an argument about sandbox v themepark. Nothing to do with TOR really, other than critisising because it's not a sandbox?
A game can have a living world and sandbox elements in some areas without being a full fledged sandbox or even a hybrid. TOR has taken the on rails concept to an extreme.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story.
Bullshit, the first rules you hear from experienced DMs is:
ITS NOT YOUR STORY!
DO NOT TRY TO TELL A STORY!
THE PLAYERS TELL THE STORY!
YOU ARE JUST THERE TO PROVIDE THE RULES! YOU ARE A PASSIVE GOD NOT AN ACTIVE ONE! YOU DO NOT INTERVENE AS LONG AS ITS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!
Yeah, shitty DMs will make up a railway adventure, but thats shitty DMing.
It is video game emulation. Of course you are railroaded more into story hence the option to play different stories. Every single themepark previously was just a jumble if mini-stories you had ZERO control over.
Also I never once mentioned a DM should railroad the adventure. The players however DO NOT tell the story. They are part of it and assist in driving the story. The best DM's can make up stories on the fly to adjust to the players. A player character may have goals and interests which lead the story in many directions but only one or a very few can be taken on at once. If retold in a narrative it would script out just like any novel would. This is the point ... the point you choose to ignore.
I cannot assist you with reaching an understanding of the truth when you simply disregard my true meaning out of blind interest in starting a flame war (your caps prove it). I even said a good DM is fair but simply must drive story. It is too bad you play in such terrible rpg games where the DM is nothing but a passive rule judge and the players rampage across the world like pillaging hordes. I clearly set an example with the Dragonlance Chronicles. The world is a vibrant and living place with nations, politics and armies. Your characters may wany to set up their little castle and plant their chickens but even the most catering "god" will not stop those armies from walking over the characters simply because they want some personal freedom.
If you stop missing the point entirely you will reread what I said (instead of skimming for words that further enlight your rage) you will see that rpg's are story. That story is generated by DM/GM and player interaction. The genre sets the nature of the story however. It could be high/low fantasy, high/low adventure which means the players have varying degrees of power within that world. Sometimes the DM sets you on a tight path and sometimes you enjoy many freedoms. Swtor does exactly that as best as an mmo can when emulating such depth of story. If a rpg game sets it genre, it's playstyle and depth of story befitting what Swtor offers then you very much see how Swtor emulates an rpg better than many before it.
Simple fact is (beyond what any specific genre approach it may have taken) Bioware made the game they promised. Now you can continue to argue about the sun not being purple (damn yellow!) or go play the game or choose not to. You could head to the Eve forums and whine it isn't themepark enough or even pop over to Wow and question why it's absolutely nothing like what Warcraft was like to begin with. So many pointless things to bitch about really.
At this point i question you ever played any PnP game or tried to run any in a capacity of a DM.
Newb DMs run adventure modules, experienced groups run freeform adventures. That is a fact from my 10+ years of PnP.
LOL, so my brother whos been dming for almost twice as long as your exp is a newb? ya ok, id say your a noob if you cant accept the often great and varied campaign books.
Any good DM wont do one thing, hell mix it up.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I only read page 1, but am I right in thinking this is an argument about sandbox v themepark. Nothing to do with TOR really, other than critisising because it's not a sandbox?
Well, I certainly didn't intend for it be. It's gotten derailed somewhat. My concern was how focusing on story limits player choices. I've elaborated on this plenty, so I won't again.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story.
Bullshit, the first rules you hear from experienced DMs is:
ITS NOT YOUR STORY!
DO NOT TRY TO TELL A STORY!
THE PLAYERS TELL THE STORY!
YOU ARE JUST THERE TO PROVIDE THE RULES! YOU ARE A PASSIVE GOD NOT AN ACTIVE ONE! YOU DO NOT INTERVENE AS LONG AS ITS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!
Yeah, shitty DMs will make up a railway adventure, but thats shitty DMing.
It is video game emulation. Of course you are railroaded more into story hence the option to play different stories. Every single themepark previously was just a jumble if mini-stories you had ZERO control over.
Also I never once mentioned a DM should railroad the adventure. The players however DO NOT tell the story. They are part of it and assist in driving the story. The best DM's can make up stories on the fly to adjust to the players. A player character may have goals and interests which lead the story in many directions but only one or a very few can be taken on at once. If retold in a narrative it would script out just like any novel would. This is the point ... the point you choose to ignore.
I cannot assist you with reaching an understanding of the truth when you simply disregard my true meaning out of blind interest in starting a flame war (your caps prove it). I even said a good DM is fair but simply must drive story. It is too bad you play in such terrible rpg games where the DM is nothing but a passive rule judge and the players rampage across the world like pillaging hordes. I clearly set an example with the Dragonlance Chronicles. The world is a vibrant and living place with nations, politics and armies. Your characters may wany to set up their little castle and plant their chickens but even the most catering "god" will not stop those armies from walking over the characters simply because they want some personal freedom.
If you stop missing the point entirely you will reread what I said (instead of skimming for words that further enlight your rage) you will see that rpg's are story. That story is generated by DM/GM and player interaction. The genre sets the nature of the story however. It could be high/low fantasy, high/low adventure which means the players have varying degrees of power within that world. Sometimes the DM sets you on a tight path and sometimes you enjoy many freedoms. Swtor does exactly that as best as an mmo can when emulating such depth of story. If a rpg game sets it genre, it's playstyle and depth of story befitting what Swtor offers then you very much see how Swtor emulates an rpg better than many before it.
Simple fact is (beyond what any specific genre approach it may have taken) Bioware made the game they promised. Now you can continue to argue about the sun not being purple (damn yellow!) or go play the game or choose not to. You could head to the Eve forums and whine it isn't themepark enough or even pop over to Wow and question why it's absolutely nothing like what Warcraft was like to begin with. So many pointless things to bitch about really.
At this point i question you ever played any PnP game or tried to run any in a capacity of a DM.
Newb DMs run adventure modules, experienced groups run freeform adventures. That is a fact from my 10+ years of PnP.
LOL, so my brother whos been dming for almost twice as long as your exp is a newb? ya ok, id say your a noob if you cant accept the often great and varied campaign books.
Any good DM wont do one thing, hell mix it up.
No good DM follows a module to the word. The point has been made very clearly that the DM adapts to any situation. The players are the unknown. The DM can use a module as a guide but nearly anything can happen. Be it a module (when set within main world as often many, story arc modules assist greatly as they are a wealth of knowledge and even novels written from them) or player created story, story and the world must be as powerful or more so than any one character. This is exactly who Wow has failed itself. The world used to be relevant. Now players do nothing but queue up their lives within it. This is the result of a DM losing control.
I only read page 1, but am I right in thinking this is an argument about sandbox v themepark. Nothing to do with TOR really, other than critisising because it's not a sandbox?
Well, I certainly didn't intend for it be. It's gotten derailed somewhat. My concern was how focusing on story limits player choices. I've elaborated on this plenty, so I won't again.
Actually that is exactly the central point in all what I have posted (to spead for myself) but it seems many are refusing to read that and all the points for and against Bioware's choice of story mechanic. For each extreme other posters have mentioned they ignore the massive drawbacks. This is what I wish to highlight.
Derailing comes from people chosing to argue points completely off topic with the point in a post or misinterpret the points.
D&D is not a game where players develop their own story to progress their characters. The DM develops the story and to players play the role of their character in that story.
Bullshit, the first rules you hear from experienced DMs is:
ITS NOT YOUR STORY!
DO NOT TRY TO TELL A STORY!
THE PLAYERS TELL THE STORY!
YOU ARE JUST THERE TO PROVIDE THE RULES! YOU ARE A PASSIVE GOD NOT AN ACTIVE ONE! YOU DO NOT INTERVENE AS LONG AS ITS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!
Yeah, shitty DMs will make up a railway adventure, but thats shitty DMing.
It is video game emulation. Of course you are railroaded more into story hence the option to play different stories. Every single themepark previously was just a jumble if mini-stories you had ZERO control over.
Also I never once mentioned a DM should railroad the adventure. The players however DO NOT tell the story. They are part of it and assist in driving the story. The best DM's can make up stories on the fly to adjust to the players. A player character may have goals and interests which lead the story in many directions but only one or a very few can be taken on at once. If retold in a narrative it would script out just like any novel would. This is the point ... the point you choose to ignore.
I cannot assist you with reaching an understanding of the truth when you simply disregard my true meaning out of blind interest in starting a flame war (your caps prove it). I even said a good DM is fair but simply must drive story. It is too bad you play in such terrible rpg games where the DM is nothing but a passive rule judge and the players rampage across the world like pillaging hordes. I clearly set an example with the Dragonlance Chronicles. The world is a vibrant and living place with nations, politics and armies. Your characters may wany to set up their little castle and plant their chickens but even the most catering "god" will not stop those armies from walking over the characters simply because they want some personal freedom.
If you stop missing the point entirely you will reread what I said (instead of skimming for words that further enlight your rage) you will see that rpg's are story. That story is generated by DM/GM and player interaction. The genre sets the nature of the story however. It could be high/low fantasy, high/low adventure which means the players have varying degrees of power within that world. Sometimes the DM sets you on a tight path and sometimes you enjoy many freedoms. Swtor does exactly that as best as an mmo can when emulating such depth of story. If a rpg game sets it genre, it's playstyle and depth of story befitting what Swtor offers then you very much see how Swtor emulates an rpg better than many before it.
Simple fact is (beyond what any specific genre approach it may have taken) Bioware made the game they promised. Now you can continue to argue about the sun not being purple (damn yellow!) or go play the game or choose not to. You could head to the Eve forums and whine it isn't themepark enough or even pop over to Wow and question why it's absolutely nothing like what Warcraft was like to begin with. So many pointless things to bitch about really.
At this point i question you ever played any PnP game or tried to run any in a capacity of a DM.
Newb DMs run adventure modules, experienced groups run freeform adventures. That is a fact from my 10+ years of PnP.
LOL, so my brother whos been dming for almost twice as long as your exp is a newb? ya ok, id say your a noob if you cant accept the often great and varied campaign books.
Any good DM wont do one thing, hell mix it up.
No good DM follows a module to the word. The point has been made very clearly that the DM adapts to any situation. The players are the unknown. The DM can use a module as a guide but nearly anything can happen. Be it a module (when set within main world as often many, story arc modules assist greatly as they are a wealth of knowledge and even novels written from them) or player created story, story and the world must be as powerful or more so than any one character. This is exactly who Wow has failed itself. The world used to be relevant. Now players do nothing but queue up their lives within it. This is the result of a DM losing control.
that supposed to be dirrected at me? cause i never said the dm should follow it to a word, he said only newbs use them, i countered.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Ok, so "on topic", the op's post isn't necessarily correct.
Oh, it's correct in laying down definitions but it doesn't take into account anyting other than traditional story telling concepts.
One term is "Theater of the Opressed" where the audience does have say in the unfolding drama. I can't say I'm an expert on this but I have been to plays where the audience was more than a passive participant.
There are modern works where the audience is not just a participant and can move the drama along a certain spine of the story. To that end there are also modern works where the narrative is non-linear or where the climax of the piece comes at the start of the work.
What I am saying is that falling back on standard definitions doesn't always work now that we are in the 21st century. Or essentially "just becuase it was done one way doesn't mean we as creators or just consumers of art, can't do it another way.
The op's post also implies that players are actually seeking role play. At least that is what I have gathered from it. However, there are players, myself included, who can readily buy into the unfolding drama by either accepting the narrative and then supplying a subtext for their character for that individual situation or players who just enjoy the evolving story and don't care about whether it's their own or not.
And though I'm sure there are role players who are very good and who have extensive improv experience, I've come across many who kind of think "anything goes". Which is not necessarily a good way to build on to a narrative.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think that story, as it is presented in SPRPGs, is very incompatible with MMORPGs. And this is basically what SWTOR is. It's a fairly linear SPRPG storyline forced into an MMORPG world. The problem is that this doesn't really work.
An MMORPG is supposed to be played for a very long period of time. And SPRPG style stories are not very fun to replay. You go through the story once, it's fun an interesting. You go through a story twice and it's like watching a rerun...boring. So I fail to see how an SPRPG style story fits into the MMORPG idea of having a highly replayable game that players can sub to for months or years and remain entertained.
That said, I think that story elements CAN offer something to MMORPGs, but it's all in the presentation. For example, I thought it would be very interesting if instead of dialog choices being based on your class, they were based on your character's personality that YOU define at character creation and that can evolve throughout time. The dialog choices could be drawn from a "pool" of possible dialog choices and would be quasi-random. So if your bon-vivant character participated in a dialog, you would have very different choices than if your "hardened soldier" character participated in a dialog.
Also, putting a continuous, linear SPRPG story that goes from start all the way to max level is a bad idea for an MMORPG. This effectively railroads your character into doing one thing.
I would much prefer if stories were taken in "chunks." Instead of one huge story, the game would have a massive collection of "short stories." Your character's choices and participation in these short stories would be recorded in your character's journal or log to basically form your character's larger personal story.
In this way, your character's story would be something YOU decide. If you want to go save those kids, you can, and it will be recorded. If you want to massacre a village, you can do that and it will be recorded as well.
So in conclusion, I think that story elements are not necessarily bad for MMORPGs, but they have to be implemented in a way that ENCHANCES the MMORPG parts of the game. Trying to force an SPRPG story into an MMORPG framework is not the way to go.
There is the fact of "Role Playing" and there is "Role Playing Game" . There are totally different.
You are not supposed to role play in Diablo or Final Fantasy, the story drives you along the game.
if everyone would read this comment it's true and if you blast TOR then go right on ahead and blast final fantasy or dare i say DIABLO..... we all know you wont you jsut want to blast this game get over it!
Guess I'll just place my faith in GW2, ArcheAge and TSW. Not ALL of them can fail, right?
According to this particular message board, every game since (at least) 2004 has failed. It seems unlikely that they'll ever deem any game a success.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ok, so "on topic", the op's post isn't necessarily correct.
Oh, it's correct in laying down definitions but it doesn't take into account anyting other than traditional story telling concepts.
One term is "Theater of the Opressed" where the audience does have say in the unfolding drama. I can't say I'm an expert on this but I have been to plays where the audience was more than a passive participant.
There are modern works where the audience is not just a participant and can move the drama along a certain spine of the story. To that end there are also modern works where the narrative is non-linear or where the climax of the piece comes at the start of the work.
What I am saying is that falling back on standard definitions doesn't always work now that we are in the 21st century. Or essentially "just becuase it was done one way doesn't mean we as creators or just consumers of art, can't do it another way.
The op's post also implies that players are actually seeking role play. At least that is what I have gathered from it. However, there are players, myself included, who can readily buy into the unfolding drama by either accepting the narrative and then supplying a subtext for their character for that individual situation or players who just enjoy the evolving story and don't care about whether it's their own or not.
And though I'm sure there are role players who are very good and who have extensive improv experience, I've come across many who kind of think "anything goes". Which is not necessarily a good way to build on to a narrative.
I'd guess the majority of current MMO'ers would prefer to consume the story, rather than create it. It's what they're used to and comfortable with, given that tv, movies, books, etc. all "work" that way.
Few will admit it, but many are afraid to RP because they "might not get it right" and may be ridiculed.
IMHO, to RP convincingly, you have to be immersed in your setting, and you have to have the ability to suspend reality for a while. This does not imply speaking Shakespearean English, or being a walking lore-wiki, just that you need to try and imagine the world from the point of view of your avatar. What would he/she know about the world at this point, etc.
But I'd guess that most people couldn't be bothered doing things ingame that would cost them time, but earn them no XP.
The op's post also implies that players are actually seeking role play. At least that is what I have gathered from it. However, there are players, myself included, who can readily buy into the unfolding drama by either accepting the narrative and then supplying a subtext for their character for that individual situation or players who just enjoy the evolving story and don't care about whether it's their own or not.
And though I'm sure there are role players who are very good and who have extensive improv experience, I've come across many who kind of think "anything goes". Which is not necessarily a good way to build on to a narrative.
If certain people such as yourself are willing to concede the lack of choice and how a linear story emphasis limits player choice, variability, and also their character's development, and within such a system you can find it fun, then that is fine, if you like that sort of thing. We aren't going to agree on everything, and I'm not going to force my opinion.
However, I do agree with your last comment, an "anything goes" approach is not a good approach at all, there are always going to be ( and there must be) rules and limits, but the point is to provide a large enough story to be engaging, but also have it be non-intrusive into the character development capabilities. The total absence of story can't exist either, there must be a median.
Originally posted by Creslin321
...I think that story elements CAN offer something to MMORPGs, but it's all in the presentation. For example, I thought it would be very interesting if instead of dialog choices being based on your class, they were based on your character's personality that YOU define at character creation and that can evolve throughout time. The dialog choices could be drawn from a "pool" of possible dialog choices and would be quasi-random. So if your bon-vivant character participated in a dialog, you would have very different choices than if your "hardened soldier" character participated in a dialog.
I would much prefer if stories were taken in "chunks." Instead of one huge story, the game would have a massive collection of "short stories." Your character's choices and participation in these short stories would be recorded in your character's journal or log to basically form your character's larger personal story.
In this way, your character's story would be something YOU decide. If you want to go save those kids, you can, and it will be recorded. If you want to massacre a village, you can do that and it will be recorded as well.
Firstly, even if the choices were tied to your character's personality (which is an improvement, if only slightly from what exists currently in SWTOR), but it is still very limiting in the character's development, because those choices are still pre-designed and built beforehand, and there can only be so many, and they must lead to a conclusion or specific outcome.
The "chunk" option is a much, much better approach. These chunks don't have to have anything to do with the general background story or lore of the game, and make much more sense because they could be more easily tied to the character's development, rather than an over-arching narrative. It is still somewhat limiting, but it would provide more random, variability, and "player-involved" choice derived outside of general narrative which is good. This is similar to how quests used to be actually, they existed, but they weren't part of railtrack so to speak, and players could complete them at their leasure, or not at all.
But I'd guess that most people couldn't be bothered doing things ingame that would cost them time, but earn them no XP.
Yuppers.
I wonder how many players would consider spending a year playing a character almost nightly without leveling once?
Oh, right, the kind of game immersive enough to make that possible vanished around 1997.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
But I'd guess that most people couldn't be bothered doing things ingame that would cost them time, but earn them no XP.
Yuppers.
I wonder how many players would consider spending a year playing a character almost nightly without leveling once?
Oh, right, the kind of game immersive enough to make that possible vanished around 1997.
I think that highlights the problem of character advancement as it is currently designed. Everything is designed around experience, and the loot grind. Are their valid options for character advancement that don't evolve around those mechanics? If the answer is no, then character development will most likely fall at the feet of story. If the answer is Yes however, what are those mechanics, and why aren't we seeing more of them?
P.S. Should this be in the SWTOR forums? Seems more general and applies to all mmorpgs.
It could go there, althought I placed here since it's more aimed at SWTOR since many have lauded it's use of story, although I didn't want it feel like just another hit and run piece, which it's not.
But I'd guess that most people couldn't be bothered doing things ingame that would cost them time, but earn them no XP.
Yuppers.
I wonder how many players would consider spending a year playing a character almost nightly without leveling once?
Oh, right, the kind of game immersive enough to make that possible vanished around 1997.
Not really, hehe, I spent almost a year in pre-NGE SWG as master chef, just doing what a chef does best, and decorating my house and sales area, and networking to find new suppliers/customers, etc.
Comments
I only read page 1, but am I right in thinking this is an argument about sandbox v themepark. Nothing to do with TOR really, other than critisising because it's not a sandbox?
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I somewhat disagree.
The DM creates the story spine, the building blocks, the encounters. It's how the players act and react to these encounters that create their own unique experience.
It's a collaborative effort.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All I read was a wall of text and someone crying for "sandbox."
Member of Talon | www.lakexeno.com
RIFT: Redcameo, Warrior, Faemist Server
RIFT: Bluecameo, Mage, Faemist Server
A game can have a living world and sandbox elements in some areas without being a full fledged sandbox or even a hybrid. TOR has taken the on rails concept to an extreme.
LOL, so my brother whos been dming for almost twice as long as your exp is a newb? ya ok, id say your a noob if you cant accept the often great and varied campaign books.
Any good DM wont do one thing, hell mix it up.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Hell there are other wall of texts about completely different subjects too!
You stay sassy!
Well, I certainly didn't intend for it be. It's gotten derailed somewhat. My concern was how focusing on story limits player choices. I've elaborated on this plenty, so I won't again.
No good DM follows a module to the word. The point has been made very clearly that the DM adapts to any situation. The players are the unknown. The DM can use a module as a guide but nearly anything can happen. Be it a module (when set within main world as often many, story arc modules assist greatly as they are a wealth of knowledge and even novels written from them) or player created story, story and the world must be as powerful or more so than any one character. This is exactly who Wow has failed itself. The world used to be relevant. Now players do nothing but queue up their lives within it. This is the result of a DM losing control.
You stay sassy!
Actually that is exactly the central point in all what I have posted (to spead for myself) but it seems many are refusing to read that and all the points for and against Bioware's choice of story mechanic. For each extreme other posters have mentioned they ignore the massive drawbacks. This is what I wish to highlight.
Derailing comes from people chosing to argue points completely off topic with the point in a post or misinterpret the points.
You stay sassy!
Great OP :-) It is always nice to see good OP's, it brings a smile to my face!!
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Thank you wormywyrm.
that supposed to be dirrected at me? cause i never said the dm should follow it to a word, he said only newbs use them, i countered.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Ok, so "on topic", the op's post isn't necessarily correct.
Oh, it's correct in laying down definitions but it doesn't take into account anyting other than traditional story telling concepts.
One term is "Theater of the Opressed" where the audience does have say in the unfolding drama. I can't say I'm an expert on this but I have been to plays where the audience was more than a passive participant.
There are modern works where the audience is not just a participant and can move the drama along a certain spine of the story. To that end there are also modern works where the narrative is non-linear or where the climax of the piece comes at the start of the work.
What I am saying is that falling back on standard definitions doesn't always work now that we are in the 21st century. Or essentially "just becuase it was done one way doesn't mean we as creators or just consumers of art, can't do it another way.
The op's post also implies that players are actually seeking role play. At least that is what I have gathered from it. However, there are players, myself included, who can readily buy into the unfolding drama by either accepting the narrative and then supplying a subtext for their character for that individual situation or players who just enjoy the evolving story and don't care about whether it's their own or not.
And though I'm sure there are role players who are very good and who have extensive improv experience, I've come across many who kind of think "anything goes". Which is not necessarily a good way to build on to a narrative.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I both agree and disagree with the OP.
I think that story, as it is presented in SPRPGs, is very incompatible with MMORPGs. And this is basically what SWTOR is. It's a fairly linear SPRPG storyline forced into an MMORPG world. The problem is that this doesn't really work.
An MMORPG is supposed to be played for a very long period of time. And SPRPG style stories are not very fun to replay. You go through the story once, it's fun an interesting. You go through a story twice and it's like watching a rerun...boring. So I fail to see how an SPRPG style story fits into the MMORPG idea of having a highly replayable game that players can sub to for months or years and remain entertained.
That said, I think that story elements CAN offer something to MMORPGs, but it's all in the presentation. For example, I thought it would be very interesting if instead of dialog choices being based on your class, they were based on your character's personality that YOU define at character creation and that can evolve throughout time. The dialog choices could be drawn from a "pool" of possible dialog choices and would be quasi-random. So if your bon-vivant character participated in a dialog, you would have very different choices than if your "hardened soldier" character participated in a dialog.
Also, putting a continuous, linear SPRPG story that goes from start all the way to max level is a bad idea for an MMORPG. This effectively railroads your character into doing one thing.
I would much prefer if stories were taken in "chunks." Instead of one huge story, the game would have a massive collection of "short stories." Your character's choices and participation in these short stories would be recorded in your character's journal or log to basically form your character's larger personal story.
In this way, your character's story would be something YOU decide. If you want to go save those kids, you can, and it will be recorded. If you want to massacre a village, you can do that and it will be recorded as well.
So in conclusion, I think that story elements are not necessarily bad for MMORPGs, but they have to be implemented in a way that ENCHANCES the MMORPG parts of the game. Trying to force an SPRPG story into an MMORPG framework is not the way to go.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
if everyone would read this comment it's true and if you blast TOR then go right on ahead and blast final fantasy or dare i say DIABLO..... we all know you wont you jsut want to blast this game get over it!
Damn you rav3n2 - tell me who or where the character in your signature is/is from! Or is it custom art?
^i agree its awesome!
According to this particular message board, every game since (at least) 2004 has failed. It seems unlikely that they'll ever deem any game a success.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I'd guess the majority of current MMO'ers would prefer to consume the story, rather than create it. It's what they're used to and comfortable with, given that tv, movies, books, etc. all "work" that way.
Few will admit it, but many are afraid to RP because they "might not get it right" and may be ridiculed.
IMHO, to RP convincingly, you have to be immersed in your setting, and you have to have the ability to suspend reality for a while. This does not imply speaking Shakespearean English, or being a walking lore-wiki, just that you need to try and imagine the world from the point of view of your avatar. What would he/she know about the world at this point, etc.
But I'd guess that most people couldn't be bothered doing things ingame that would cost them time, but earn them no XP.
If certain people such as yourself are willing to concede the lack of choice and how a linear story emphasis limits player choice, variability, and also their character's development, and within such a system you can find it fun, then that is fine, if you like that sort of thing. We aren't going to agree on everything, and I'm not going to force my opinion.
However, I do agree with your last comment, an "anything goes" approach is not a good approach at all, there are always going to be ( and there must be) rules and limits, but the point is to provide a large enough story to be engaging, but also have it be non-intrusive into the character development capabilities. The total absence of story can't exist either, there must be a median.
Firstly, even if the choices were tied to your character's personality (which is an improvement, if only slightly from what exists currently in SWTOR), but it is still very limiting in the character's development, because those choices are still pre-designed and built beforehand, and there can only be so many, and they must lead to a conclusion or specific outcome.
The "chunk" option is a much, much better approach. These chunks don't have to have anything to do with the general background story or lore of the game, and make much more sense because they could be more easily tied to the character's development, rather than an over-arching narrative. It is still somewhat limiting, but it would provide more random, variability, and "player-involved" choice derived outside of general narrative which is good. This is similar to how quests used to be actually, they existed, but they weren't part of railtrack so to speak, and players could complete them at their leasure, or not at all.
Yuppers.
I wonder how many players would consider spending a year playing a character almost nightly without leveling once?
Oh, right, the kind of game immersive enough to make that possible vanished around 1997.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Amazing write up OP! I’m with you 100%!
P.S. Should this be in the SWTOR forums? Seems more general and applies to all mmorpgs.
My theme song.
I think that highlights the problem of character advancement as it is currently designed. Everything is designed around experience, and the loot grind. Are their valid options for character advancement that don't evolve around those mechanics? If the answer is no, then character development will most likely fall at the feet of story. If the answer is Yes however, what are those mechanics, and why aren't we seeing more of them?
It could go there, althought I placed here since it's more aimed at SWTOR since many have lauded it's use of story, although I didn't want it feel like just another hit and run piece, which it's not.
Not really, hehe, I spent almost a year in pre-NGE SWG as master chef, just doing what a chef does best, and decorating my house and sales area, and networking to find new suppliers/customers, etc.