Originally posted by DarkPony Still misinterpreting are we?
Not at all, I got your point perfectly right - proposing changes without considering arguments, reason or consequences. Nothing matters as long as you get what you ask for...
Dear OP, for every reply of yours in this thread I shall gank an unsuspecting republican in SWTOR. As of yet that's 20 dead republicans!
Don't take it personal though, sadly the game doesn't give me incentives to kill players in the open world. It doesn't even keep track! So I'm forced to invent my own incentives ^_^
Go get em!
III
Got three last night but I didn't really went looking for them. All force users of my level or higher. Ganking in SWTOR is easy mode though; contrary to a game like WOW, I wait until the target is done fighting npc's to be able to sleep dart his companion, after that you've got a solid timeframe of your own companion assisting you on the player for double dps rainbow all across the sky. Nothing can withstand that.
Wouldn't be surprised if they'd make companions immune to long term stuns in world pvp eventually.
p.s. Going around getting datacrons so far has been the biggest incentive to venture out in enemy territory and encounter them.
Ugh.....pking that is enabled by bad game design (by allowing such an easymode win) is something I abhor in MMO's. Let's hope they decide to fix this one before they decide to reward players for openworld PVP.
It's essentially the same as attacking players who are engaged with npc's at the same time like in any other game though. You can do that too in in SWTOR but it's either or: you can't long term stun targets engaged in combat.
Also it could be that companions have a stun breaker that has to be activated manually, I didn't look into that yet.
One of the better mechanics I saw implemented in an MMORPG was in DAOC. When a person attacked a player engaged in combat with an NPC the attackee's health reset to 100% and the NPC dropped aggro for a few seconds giving them time to disengage and deal with their attacker. (and if it was close quarter combat the NPC could reaggro the attacking player instead of the attackee)
Haven't seen anything like that since then though, yet further evidence of the de-evolution of MMORPG's I guess.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not at all, I got your point perfectly right - proposing changes without considering arguments, reason or consequences. Nothing matters as long as you get what you ask for...
You have not given me any solid argument why world pvp shouldn't be made more appealing on pvp servers than it is now in SWTOR, you mainly went out on a limb stumbling over semantics and dismissed my arguments just the same (partial quoting and partial addressing of replies ftw).
But on what kind of server do you play yourself anyway? If its pve and world pvp isn't your cup of tea, please explain me how your opinion isn't null and void.
Also the possibly flawed mechanics concerning companion mechanics in pvp is an altogether different issue. i.e. it's a very obvious fallacy to reason that "companions are flawed in world pvp, hence world pvp shouldn't be more stimulated or have more incentives in this game".
But if you feel like continuing another thread's discussion, do it in that thread. I can't guarantee that I will be there to waste any more time on it though.
Originally posted by DarkPony But if you feel like continuing another thread's discussion, do it in that thread. I can't guarantee that I will be there to waste any more time on it though.
Yep, that is precisely you did there, wasted time repeating yourself over and over, ignoring every single point people made...
If you roll pvp server don't complain about pvp, simple.
Uhm, that is not a great idea.
If people don't complain there is no reason to make it better. Just instancing up everything isn't really making it better but neither is letting the game just be as it is.
PvP can be really fun but it rarely is because it basically is the same as it always been with some instabces and arenas added. That's not good enough.
Complaining that there is PvP on a PvP server is stupid of course but complaining that it ain't good enough is valid.
i'd like to see a few more devs go a bit nutso. i'd like them to offer up a server of open world pvp with full loot. just to see what happens. i mean, if it fails, you can fold the server. but i'd be interested to see how many people REALLY want the full pvp experience (i got MY hand up for it, though), and how many just want to say they play on the full pvp server but don't want to get ganked. so many people roll onto pvp servers and complain there's pvp'ing going on.
to gank or not to gank is not the question. the question is simply WHEN to gank.
and, it's always better to be the gankor, and not the gankee.
basically, i agree that there's nothing to complain about if you're getting wompratted on a pvp server. that's why you struggle to build yourself up. to get revenge. but to complain about the mechanics is fine.
Originally posted by headphones basically, i agree that there's nothing to complain about if you're getting wompratted on a pvp server. that's why you struggle to build yourself up. to get revenge.
That is hardly an excuse for poor design.
There are 2 main issue with world PVP implementation:
1) Mixing PVP and PVE objectives is never good.
It basically sets the bed for pointless PVP - gank, and incorrect incentives.
2) Lack of escape mechanics.
Just because you are in non-consensual PVP area, does not imply you should be forced into anything - again supporting pointless PVP.
When you couple those 2 as often it is found in most games trying for world PVP, you get a pattern for fail.
The problem isn't the ganking in and of itself, it's more that the focus of PvP in MMO's is the wrong one.
MMO-PvP should not be about grinding gear in some endless WF/Arena/BG setting with the added carnage of meaningless OPvP but rather about conquest and territorial control with a strong economy that is tied into the PvP due to having either full loot or degrading items so that everything in the game needs to be replaced at some point. At that point the rewards of PvP come from the control of resources and making sure you're faction or guild, depending on the overall system in place ( faction vs faction or FFA), has access and control over the best resource spots in the game world and prevents the enemy from doing so.
In that specific setting there can be no talk of ganking or w/e you wanna call it, sure there might arise unfair situations lke rolling over a bunch of unprotected crafters/industrialists or the odd solo player, even a raid on an unprotected merchants caravan, but for the larger scope of the game it still is fair game and the blame is to be put on the vanquished for not taking the necessary precautions need to achive the goal for which they've set out to do by either hiring mercenaries or having a guild/clan/corp op setup and havng an escort with them. In addition these games usually don't have that insurmountable lvl barrier but most of the time have a skill based system in place which allows a grp of newbies or lower skilled players to take out the vet in his shiny armor.
As to the solo player in an OPvP setting, don't be stupid, be prepared and know what you're getting yourself into! Be aware of your sourundings, have escape routes setup and at the first sign of player activity in your surroundings either bail or get to a safe spot and evaluate the situtaion: are they friendly or hostile and if the latter is true evalute your chances of success and act accordingly, don't just stand there bashing that mob mindlessly until they are upon you, after all it's a dangerous place out there in the open all by yourself.
On the other hand PvP in theme parks, especially OPvP, at least to me, is rather bland and boring since there is neither reward nor loss, nor any risk at all, unless you consider respawnng at the closest graveyard and havin to spend 30s on a corpse run loss. But tehn again theme parks have their measure against gaking which come in the form of PvE servers, you can't stand the heat and the risk of being ganked or PKed by higher lvls roll PvE it's as simple as that. I myself don't roll any form of theme park as for me there is no purpose to the PvP in those games.
I usually avoid to quote myself but since my post seems to have been blatantly ignored an no one has made any replies to it so far here we go again!
basically, i agree that there's nothing to complain about if you're getting wompratted on a pvp server. that's why you struggle to build yourself up. to get revenge.
That is hardly an excuse for poor design.
There are 2 main issue with world PVP implementation:
1) Mixing PVP and PVE objectives is never good.
It basically sets the bed for pointless PVP - gank, and incorrect incentives.
2) Lack of escape mechanics.
Just because you are in non-consensual PVP area, does not imply you should be forced into anything - again supporting pointless PVP.
When you couple those 2 as often it is found in most games trying for world PVP, you get a pattern for fail.
Your arguments are perfectly valid. That's why they make PvE servers .
I also agree that there should be some control to prevent very high levels from ganking lower levels, it's a completely unfair fight and shouldn't happen.
But well, getting ganked by a player of similar level while questing...that's kind of the point of a PvP server. I personally don't usually play on them for the reasons you stated, but you can't really deny that a lot of folks do because they like to be able to "attack" the other faction and have the risk of being attacked.
So why complain about it? PvP players know what they are getting into. And if they don't, well they shouldn't have rolled on a PvP server...maybe BW will let them transfer down the road.
I've been playing MMO's now since eq1. Years and years and years. And, the one thing I've never enjoyed is being ganked. Who would? I am primarily a PVE player, but I also enjoy the occasional PVP matches (in moderate doses, cuz PVP bores me very quickly. Kill you, kill me, kill you, kill me, rinse and repeat - yawn).
Now before you say .. "just because you don't like PVP doesn't mean everyone does replies", I know, I KNOW!!! I am not saying PVP is bad, wrong, right, etc... it's just not for me. But more power to those who enjoy it. Choice in games is great. Although it does appear that having a good PVE and PVP game together is very difficult, or so it would seem.
Now, this is not about PVE vs PVP. No, this is simply about a specific portion of PVP - open world and ganking.
I remember playin AION for a bit. Was really enjoying it. Then I went into an open world area, and got killed by this player. So I sent him a tell stating, you're good, I admit it, you win. Can I now go and explore. Nope. Killed me a few times afterwards. From that moment on, this player would follow me around and instantly kill me. He was several levels above me. Mr. Gank. I could not understand why a person would enjoy this type of childish game play.
Intersting enough, my bro in law is a psychologist, he feels that this type of behavior is very similar to the 'bully' syndrome in children. They get no respect or love in real live, so they play games to feel strong, mean, tough and thereby .. gank and bully in games.
Needless to say, I quit the game because any game that approvess this type of game play obivously is not for me.
Now I'm enjoying SWTOR. Is it perfect, not even close, but having fun, for now. I also read a lot of hate threads regarding SWTOR not having open world PVP and thereby ganking.
Maybe, SWTOR is yet another example of gaming companies realizing that ganking needs to be removed from game play, completely. If so, I hope more new games catch on to this because I for one, couldn't be happier about it.
Sorry gankers, but maybe, just maybe -- your days are numbered.
PvP in games is fine, I think what the op is saying that is constant ganking of one person is bad. It is bad and silly and idiotic, why would you do that unless you are a real jerk. I played a Ranger in AOC and as such I could turn invisible, which gave me a real advantage in open world PvP and I did kill some lowbies, but never more than once-what is the point- and if someone said to me that they are just here gathering or crafting what ever I would respect that. I somehow found it more satisfying to take on someone within 5 lvls of me. If developers would adopt such a system that would cure all, You cannot fight someone unless they are within 5 lvls of you
Your arguments are perfectly valid. That's why they make PvE servers .
I also agree that there should be some control to prevent very high levels from ganking lower levels, it's a completely unfair fight and shouldn't happen.
But well, getting ganked by a player of similar level while questing...that's kind of the point of a PvP server. I personally don't usually play on them for the reasons you stated, but you can't really deny that a lot of folks do because they like to be able to "attack" the other faction and have the risk of being attacked.
So why complain about it? PvP players know what they are getting into. And if they don't, well they shouldn't have rolled on a PvP server...maybe BW will let them transfer down the road.
Finding opposing side players in ToR is not always easy. You normally find them only when out hunting datacrons. That being said, fights are never fair. Someone always has an advantage. If you are good enough, you can turn the tables on your attacker.
basically, i agree that there's nothing to complain about if you're getting wompratted on a pvp server. that's why you struggle to build yourself up. to get revenge.
That is hardly an excuse for poor design.
There are 2 main issue with world PVP implementation:
1) Mixing PVP and PVE objectives is never good.
It basically sets the bed for pointless PVP - gank, and incorrect incentives.
2) Lack of escape mechanics.
Just because you are in non-consensual PVP area, does not imply you should be forced into anything - again supporting pointless PVP.
When you couple those 2 as often it is found in most games trying for world PVP, you get a pattern for fail.
Since there is so much vagueness, which is natural to forum posts, such as if you mean clearly defined objective in form of a quest/mission or also include more abstract ones (such as leveling up, killing your enemy), etc, I will just pick and choose and then reply to that.
1) "Pointless" and "good" are all a matter of subjective perspective. Letting important quests and efficient level areas overlap with pvp quests/rewards will create an active world of player killing, which is why many roll in a PvP server to begin with, so that would be good. It wouldn't be pointless either since reinforcing a world full of danger (far beyond what a PvE server can provide) is one important selling point for PvP servers.
2) One important aspect for good world PvP is to have a balance between how much your paranoia and planning of escape routes will help you and how much your opponent's planning will help him to kill you. Too easy to escape makes world pvp rather pointless unless there are important resources to take control of; too hard to escape and griefing may become a too large problem even for avid PvP players. It comes down to a matter of subjective opinion.
i've ganked at least 15 people leveling up and I've been ganked once. My goal was to make it to 50 without being ganked but 2 sith saw me at a quest hub and my vanish go a DOT on it.
There is plenty of open world ganking.
The ganking in SWTORS is so broken, the fact that I can CC your pet and you have to fight me and my pet is broken. I almost feel bad for the players im ganking because there is little to nothing they can do to fight back.
they need to make pets immune to the 60 second cc. that stuff is broken.
Originally posted by InFaVilla Since there is so much vagueness, which is natural to forum posts, such as if you mean clearly defined objective in form of a quest/mission or also include more abstract ones (such as leveling up, killing your enemy), etc, I will just pick and choose and then reply to that.
1) "Pointless" and "good" are all a matter of subjective perspective. Letting important quests and efficient level areas overlap with pvp quests/rewards will create an active world of player killing, which is why many roll in a PvP server to begin with, so that would be good. It wouldn't be pointless either since reinforcing a world full of danger (far beyond what a PvE server can provide) is one important selling point for PvP servers. 2) One important aspect for good world PvP is to have a balance between how much your paranoia and planning of escape routes will help you and how much your opponent's planning will help him to kill you. Too easy to escape makes world pvp rather pointless unless there are important resources to take control of; too hard to escape and griefing may become a too large problem even for avid PvP players. It comes down to a matter of subjective opinion.
I do not intend to be vague, just staying at general design rules.
Simply put: Once you enter PVP area, your concern should be engaging other players or competition for shared objective.
Is more clarification/definition needed?
1) Pointless might be subjective but well reasoned.
As pointed out before, there is no gain for the victim of gank, it's pointless PVP(from design perspective).
Good in this case represents fun provided to players and design consistency.
PVE quests overlap fully complies with my point 1)
Incentives for pointless PVP, instead of PVP providing fun for both parties.
2) Planning routes won't help you much if 5 players jump on you...
It is interesting that you say that lack of escape mechanics might be an issue and then you say that questing overlap, ganking while questing, is somehow good for the game...
World PVP is usually just PVE environment with different rule set and optional reward system strapped on. It is just a cheap and quick solution but world PVP needs a proper design to make it work and appealing.
wow 15 pages spurred by a post by someone who doesn't even understand the game they are playing. Seriously, you don't think there's ganking on pvp servers? You play on a pve server? WHY ARE YOU EVEN POSTING....
I do not intend to be vague, just staying at general design rules.
Simply put:
Once you enter PVP area, your concern should be engaging other players or competition for shared objective.
Is more clarification/definition needed?
[/quote]
I do not expect anyone to be perfectly clear about anything they mean. A lot of time would have to be spent in the art of semantics in order to reach such clarity. For instance, "shared" becomes vague here, since if two factions have two opposing objectives in one PvP ara are they really "shared" or just overlapping?
Futhermore, once you enter a PvP area, your concern should just to have fun, despite what form that may take. That may mean engaging other players, avoiding them at all costs, completing a non-shared objective, completing a shared objective, just leveling, etc.
[quote]
1) Pointless might be subjective but well reasoned.
As pointed out before, there is no gain for the victim of gank, it's pointless PVP(from design perspective).
Good in this case represents fun provided to players and design consistency.
[/quote]
Even from a design perspective, pointless is a vague term, because then you have to ask "In which design aspect?" and whether or not that design aspect is interesting. If you want to design a game so that people to start killing other players, then even ganks are not pointless from that particular design perspective.
Design consistency is not automatically better in all aspects than design that shows inconsistencies. However, that one is a large seperate discussion.
Making people having fun is one "good" way to create your game, but another one is to just make them feel entertained. Entertainment can come in many shapes and forms: it can be through fun, through fear, through anger, etc.
[quote]
PVE quests overlap fully complies with my point 1)
Incentives for pointless PVP, instead of PVP providing fun for both parties.
[/quote]
Not everything in a game needs to be fun instantly to be entertaining. Outsmarting a group of three people who chased you for being too near them, can be very entertaining. So can planning and hiding with a group to avenge your earlier death.
Sure, in a succesful gank, one party will feel a temporary setback. However, a great joy in games is to overcome your setback and learn from your mistakes.
[/quote]
2) Planning routes won't help you much if 5 players jump on you...
It is interesting that you say that lack of escape mechanics might be an issue and then you say that questing overlap, ganking while questing, is somehow good for the game...
[quote]
Whether or not it is an issue depends on how extreme the game is. The tolerance level varies from person to person. If for instance, one game was so extreme that it made any pker able to instantly summon and instantly freeze any player on the same map from any distance, then yes, I think extremely few would tolerate a such mechanic.
Evidently, there are people who do not mind and actually feel entertained by questing overlap and ganking while questing to a certain extent.
About 5 players jumping on you: if the probability of having 5 people attacking you when you try to reach to your destination, is almost 100%, then you need to start pre-planning by getting a team of your own or maybe even send out decoys to lure them away.
Progress won't be as easy as in PvE servers, but every step will feel so much more satisfying since you were able to overcome all the dangers that should be inherent to the PVP servers.
[quote]
World PVP is usually just PVE environment with different rule set and optional reward system strapped on. It is just a cheap and quick solution but world PVP needs a proper design to make it work and appealing.
[/quote]
Cheap and quick it may be, but the dynamics that arise through them can really spice up the game depending on taste.
--------------------------------
Edit: gaaah, I dislike when forums go outside of the norm for different commands such as quoting :&
Using "[quote] text [/quote]" is so common and convenient that I don't know why it isn't implemented in all forums.
Dear OP, for every reply of yours in this thread I shall gank an unsuspecting republican in SWTOR. As of yet that's 20 dead republicans!
Don't take it personal though, sadly the game doesn't give me incentives to kill players in the open world. It doesn't even keep track! So I'm forced to invent my own incentives ^_^
Go get em!
III
Got three last night but I didn't really went looking for them. All force users of my level or higher. Ganking in SWTOR is easy mode though; contrary to a game like WOW, I wait until the target is done fighting npc's to be able to sleep dart his companion, after that you've got a solid timeframe of your own companion assisting you on the player for double dps rainbow all across the sky. Nothing can withstand that.
Wouldn't be surprised if they'd make companions immune to long term stuns in world pvp eventually.
p.s. Going around getting datacrons so far has been the biggest incentive to venture out in enemy territory and encounter them.
If you encounter them, you must kill them. It is a Open PVP rule of thumb. You know they would do the same to you given the chance. So what's the kill count up to now?
"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
Comments
Not at all, I got your point perfectly right - proposing changes without considering arguments, reason or consequences. Nothing matters as long as you get what you ask for...
One of the better mechanics I saw implemented in an MMORPG was in DAOC. When a person attacked a player engaged in combat with an NPC the attackee's health reset to 100% and the NPC dropped aggro for a few seconds giving them time to disengage and deal with their attacker. (and if it was close quarter combat the NPC could reaggro the attacking player instead of the attackee)
Haven't seen anything like that since then though, yet further evidence of the de-evolution of MMORPG's I guess.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You have not given me any solid argument why world pvp shouldn't be made more appealing on pvp servers than it is now in SWTOR, you mainly went out on a limb stumbling over semantics and dismissed my arguments just the same (partial quoting and partial addressing of replies ftw).
But on what kind of server do you play yourself anyway? If its pve and world pvp isn't your cup of tea, please explain me how your opinion isn't null and void.
Also the possibly flawed mechanics concerning companion mechanics in pvp is an altogether different issue. i.e. it's a very obvious fallacy to reason that "companions are flawed in world pvp, hence world pvp shouldn't be more stimulated or have more incentives in this game".
But if you feel like continuing another thread's discussion, do it in that thread. I can't guarantee that I will be there to waste any more time on it though.
My brand new bloggity blog.
Yep, that is precisely you did there, wasted time repeating yourself over and over, ignoring every single point people made...
i'd like to see a few more devs go a bit nutso. i'd like them to offer up a server of open world pvp with full loot. just to see what happens. i mean, if it fails, you can fold the server. but i'd be interested to see how many people REALLY want the full pvp experience (i got MY hand up for it, though), and how many just want to say they play on the full pvp server but don't want to get ganked. so many people roll onto pvp servers and complain there's pvp'ing going on.
to gank or not to gank is not the question. the question is simply WHEN to gank.
and, it's always better to be the gankor, and not the gankee.
basically, i agree that there's nothing to complain about if you're getting wompratted on a pvp server. that's why you struggle to build yourself up. to get revenge. but to complain about the mechanics is fine.
That is hardly an excuse for poor design.
There are 2 main issue with world PVP implementation:
1) Mixing PVP and PVE objectives is never good.
It basically sets the bed for pointless PVP - gank, and incorrect incentives.
2) Lack of escape mechanics.
Just because you are in non-consensual PVP area, does not imply you should be forced into anything - again supporting pointless PVP.
When you couple those 2 as often it is found in most games trying for world PVP, you get a pattern for fail.
I usually avoid to quote myself but since my post seems to have been blatantly ignored an no one has made any replies to it so far here we go again!
Your arguments are perfectly valid. That's why they make PvE servers
.
I also agree that there should be some control to prevent very high levels from ganking lower levels, it's a completely unfair fight and shouldn't happen.
But well, getting ganked by a player of similar level while questing...that's kind of the point of a PvP server. I personally don't usually play on them for the reasons you stated, but you can't really deny that a lot of folks do because they like to be able to "attack" the other faction and have the risk of being attacked.
So why complain about it? PvP players know what they are getting into. And if they don't, well they shouldn't have rolled on a PvP server...maybe BW will let them transfer down the road.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
how exactly did you pull this off?
PvP in games is fine, I think what the op is saying that is constant ganking of one person is bad. It is bad and silly and idiotic, why would you do that unless you are a real jerk. I played a Ranger in AOC and as such I could turn invisible, which gave me a real advantage in open world PvP and I did kill some lowbies, but never more than once-what is the point- and if someone said to me that they are just here gathering or crafting what ever I would respect that. I somehow found it more satisfying to take on someone within 5 lvls of me. If developers would adopt such a system that would cure all, You cannot fight someone unless they are within 5 lvls of you
Finding opposing side players in ToR is not always easy. You normally find them only when out hunting datacrons. That being said, fights are never fair. Someone always has an advantage. If you are good enough, you can turn the tables on your attacker.
No, that's why they made Arenas and Battlegrounds.
Since there is so much vagueness, which is natural to forum posts, such as if you mean clearly defined objective in form of a quest/mission or also include more abstract ones (such as leveling up, killing your enemy), etc, I will just pick and choose and then reply to that.
1) "Pointless" and "good" are all a matter of subjective perspective. Letting important quests and efficient level areas overlap with pvp quests/rewards will create an active world of player killing, which is why many roll in a PvP server to begin with, so that would be good. It wouldn't be pointless either since reinforcing a world full of danger (far beyond what a PvE server can provide) is one important selling point for PvP servers.
2) One important aspect for good world PvP is to have a balance between how much your paranoia and planning of escape routes will help you and how much your opponent's planning will help him to kill you. Too easy to escape makes world pvp rather pointless unless there are important resources to take control of; too hard to escape and griefing may become a too large problem even for avid PvP players. It comes down to a matter of subjective opinion.
What are you talking about?
i've ganked at least 15 people leveling up and I've been ganked once. My goal was to make it to 50 without being ganked but 2 sith saw me at a quest hub and my vanish go a DOT on it.
There is plenty of open world ganking.
The ganking in SWTORS is so broken, the fact that I can CC your pet and you have to fight me and my pet is broken. I almost feel bad for the players im ganking because there is little to nothing they can do to fight back.
they need to make pets immune to the 60 second cc. that stuff is broken.
I do not intend to be vague, just staying at general design rules.
Simply put:
Once you enter PVP area, your concern should be engaging other players or competition for shared objective.
Is more clarification/definition needed?
1) Pointless might be subjective but well reasoned.
As pointed out before, there is no gain for the victim of gank, it's pointless PVP(from design perspective).
Good in this case represents fun provided to players and design consistency.
PVE quests overlap fully complies with my point 1)
Incentives for pointless PVP, instead of PVP providing fun for both parties.
2) Planning routes won't help you much if 5 players jump on you...
It is interesting that you say that lack of escape mechanics might be an issue and then you say that questing overlap, ganking while questing, is somehow good for the game...
World PVP is usually just PVE environment with different rule set and optional reward system strapped on. It is just a cheap and quick solution but world PVP needs a proper design to make it work and appealing.
Why are you playing Open World PVP when there is space combat to be done?!? Really?
wow 15 pages spurred by a post by someone who doesn't even understand the game they are playing. Seriously, you don't think there's ganking on pvp servers? You play on a pve server? WHY ARE YOU EVEN POSTING....
so confused.
[quote]
I do not intend to be vague, just staying at general design rules.
Simply put:
Once you enter PVP area, your concern should be engaging other players or competition for shared objective.
Is more clarification/definition needed?
[/quote]
I do not expect anyone to be perfectly clear about anything they mean. A lot of time would have to be spent in the art of semantics in order to reach such clarity. For instance, "shared" becomes vague here, since if two factions have two opposing objectives in one PvP ara are they really "shared" or just overlapping?
Futhermore, once you enter a PvP area, your concern should just to have fun, despite what form that may take. That may mean engaging other players, avoiding them at all costs, completing a non-shared objective, completing a shared objective, just leveling, etc.
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1) Pointless might be subjective but well reasoned.
As pointed out before, there is no gain for the victim of gank, it's pointless PVP(from design perspective).
Good in this case represents fun provided to players and design consistency.
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Even from a design perspective, pointless is a vague term, because then you have to ask "In which design aspect?" and whether or not that design aspect is interesting. If you want to design a game so that people to start killing other players, then even ganks are not pointless from that particular design perspective.
Design consistency is not automatically better in all aspects than design that shows inconsistencies. However, that one is a large seperate discussion.
Making people having fun is one "good" way to create your game, but another one is to just make them feel entertained. Entertainment can come in many shapes and forms: it can be through fun, through fear, through anger, etc.
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PVE quests overlap fully complies with my point 1)
Incentives for pointless PVP, instead of PVP providing fun for both parties.
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Not everything in a game needs to be fun instantly to be entertaining. Outsmarting a group of three people who chased you for being too near them, can be very entertaining. So can planning and hiding with a group to avenge your earlier death.
Sure, in a succesful gank, one party will feel a temporary setback. However, a great joy in games is to overcome your setback and learn from your mistakes.
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2) Planning routes won't help you much if 5 players jump on you...
It is interesting that you say that lack of escape mechanics might be an issue and then you say that questing overlap, ganking while questing, is somehow good for the game...
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Whether or not it is an issue depends on how extreme the game is. The tolerance level varies from person to person. If for instance, one game was so extreme that it made any pker able to instantly summon and instantly freeze any player on the same map from any distance, then yes, I think extremely few would tolerate a such mechanic.
Evidently, there are people who do not mind and actually feel entertained by questing overlap and ganking while questing to a certain extent.
About 5 players jumping on you: if the probability of having 5 people attacking you when you try to reach to your destination, is almost 100%, then you need to start pre-planning by getting a team of your own or maybe even send out decoys to lure them away.
Progress won't be as easy as in PvE servers, but every step will feel so much more satisfying since you were able to overcome all the dangers that should be inherent to the PVP servers.
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World PVP is usually just PVE environment with different rule set and optional reward system strapped on. It is just a cheap and quick solution but world PVP needs a proper design to make it work and appealing.
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Cheap and quick it may be, but the dynamics that arise through them can really spice up the game depending on taste.
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Edit: gaaah, I dislike when forums go outside of the norm for different commands such as quoting :&
Using "[quote] text [/quote]" is so common and convenient that I don't know why it isn't implemented in all forums.
If you encounter them, you must kill them. It is a Open PVP rule of thumb. You know they would do the same to you given the chance. So what's the kill count up to now?
"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."