It may sound shallow, but here's something to think about.
Companies that splurge on mega-marketing teams are just insecure about their product. Let's face it, the internet is filled with so many MMO-NEWS kinda websites and user reviews/gameplay videos are easily accessible. Over-hyping usually ends up with the product being very different from what was being marketed. Look at 2011, a year of over-hyping and stuff like that.. it's pretty sad that the MMO industry turned out like this.
Let me put it this way, if you played swtor and if feels like more of the same... You can cancel yoru account right away, delete all your mmos from your computer adn forget about the genre for the next 15 years or the rest of your life...
You mean delete all the MMO's on my drive, even the ones I like?
I can't speak for Diablo 3, but I will let you guys in on a little secret. GW2 is gonna launch with no endgame and broken PvP just like SW:TOR did and just like literally every MMO that came out before it did.
Say what you will about SW:TOR but this game has had the most successful launch in the history of MMOs. This is as good as its going to get.
Nobody is going to be able to spend as much money to compete with Blizzard like EA can, so we should support EA because they have the money to make/copy the content we want.
I can't speak for Diablo 3, but I will let you guys in on a little secret. GW2 is gonna launch with no endgame and broken PvP just like SW:TOR did and just like literally every MMO that came out before it did.
Say what you will about SW:TOR but this game has had the most successful launch in the history of MMOs. This is as good as its going to get.
Nobody is going to be able to spend as much money to compete with Blizzard like EA can, so we should support EA because they have the money to make/copy the content we want.
SWTOR successful? I rather play SWG then this low budget crap, the only high budget it has is VO that's it, all the rest is horrible bugs, glitches and optimization.
Also GW 2, dude i played that game in GC 2010 till 2011 and let me tell you, each time I played the game it became polished after polished after polished to the point where they should release the god damn game. I tried the competitive pvp, fought Tequatl, played as an Asuran "which i must say the animation is awesome". I even talked to Anet staff members and you know what they talk about? freakin games like UO, DAOC and AC it's crazy how they don't talk about marketing or anything related to the word $$, it's all games, artwork and the community.
Same here ,i have played two years running at gamescom.What the OP seems to forget is ArenaNet have already had a game with great PVP,it's called GW1.
The thing is that the OP will be the first to leave SWTOR when the time comes,keep an eye on his post because these type of threads will always come back to burn ya on the ass.
So a few things. Do I think they set the standard for how story presentation should be in future mmo's? umm yeah I doubt many can argue this. Do I think they set realistic expectations? hell no
This is not exactly something any dev can ever hope to achieve ever again. It is what the game will be known for in 20 years. The problem is they went for RPG and forgot MMO. Finding groups of 4 or raids does not equal a mmo in my book. In TOR outside of preset datacrons there is not a damn single reason to leave the path.
When I fully explore a zone in WoW or Rift I get a little achievement. If I find a hidden cave and kill a rare boss I get a little thing for points. I think sacrificing the open world for the rpg will destroy this game. Add a auto group dungeon finder and grats you have World of Queuecraft all over again. Why ddi they choose to leave the worlds dead and lifeless with nothing going on? Dynamic was a big word in 2011 for a reason and having staleness just kills the game for me.
The problem I am seeing with players in regard to TOR are much more basic.
Sandbox players are ready for a new Sandbox game and one isn't available yet. As a new Themepark game is, they are annoyed... Annoyed with having to balance the need to play something new with having to play something they know they won't like.
TOR is good for a themepark fan... It won't be for a sandbox fan. This has been known from the start, but players still want it to be a Sandbox game.
Evidence: Sandbox players are still buying the game, playing it, and screaming at the top of their lungs about how they don't like it.
It's self inflicted trauma.
GW2 will be a good Sandbox game. TSW will hopefully be a good game (we'll see how sandbox it is... so many "if's" with this game).
The good news is that good stuff is en route. The bad is that it hasn't arrived yet.
I agree with you, and hopefully sandbox mmo's comes back, i know that Archage is out in KR and it looks awesome, the fact you can build a boat, make a hand glider and different assorment to bring back the RPG in the MMO.
GW 2 although themepark it looks awesome and plays spectacular back when i tried gc and pax demo. The thing i want developer do is to take the approach of new ideas to increase the enjoyment and experience to a different level.
If Anet can do it why not the rest? I understand it's risky, but if they really put much effort and commitment to what they are creating, it can end up amazing.
You know they seem to be doing ok with TOR. they created a super linear themepark with all those millions and people hate it. not all people. but the genre is festering with themeparks. They have a certain amount of time before uncle george see's it failing and sends Julio Torres in to fix it. and we all know how the last starwars MMO faired when he showed up looking like a goofy mark hamill with downs.
I see a team who are locked in now for the linear long haul.
You know they seem to be doing ok with TOR. they created a super linear themepark with all those millions and people hate it. not all people. but the genre is festering with themeparks. They have a certain amount of time before uncle george see's it failing and sends Julio Torres in to fix it. and we all know how the last starwars MMO faired when he showed up looking like a goofy mark hamill with downs.
I see a team who are locked in now for the linear long haul.
I wish them well.
No, not everyone hates it. Only you haters determined to hate it. And believe it or not, you're actually a minority. If you bring it up on the chats in the game, most people love it.
Okay so I'm hearing a lot of reports from players saying that they like TOR but they don't want to stay subbed to it, or that they are going to cancel and resub back to the game when they've added more content/fixed issues.
EA/Bioware spent a lot of money on SW:TOR, I'm hearing estimates around $300 million or so, that's the most money a company has ever tossed at the MMO industry. You WANT them to toss money at us.
TOR may not be the best game in the market, or any good at all, but it's definitely super expensive, and it's new, and EA gets really mad if they don't get paid.
*edit for clarity*
This post is beyond belief TBH.
It fails to understand so much
Hahah yes.
I have my suspicions it may be a very clever troll post. But if it's not...
Then it basically reads as the "bad guy" in an Ayn Rand (or Terry Goodkind) novel.
"Oh, they tried so hard! You should support them even if you dislike their product. You wouldn't want them to feel like failures would you???"
Ridiculous. If you don't like a product, don't buy it. Maybe that will teach developers to stop coming out with stuff that people don't like.
This also sounds like the philosophy behind the 2008 bank bailouts.
"Yes, they messed up, but if you don't give them your money what will happen to the industry????"
Culling the weak from the herd is the natural mechanism of the free market. If you buy something that is a crappy product just because you are afraid of the market buckling if you don't, then you are sabotaging the free market.
Imagine what would have happened to the video game market if everyone bought ET (possibly the worst game ever made) for the Atari? Instead of the game industry crashing and then being revitalized as a much stronger force, it would have kept limping along putting out crap game after crap game because you the consumer are telling the developers that this is okay.
I bought the game and it didn't even keep me interested for my first month sub fee. I feel no obligation to pay a subscription fee for a game that does not deserve it.
Face it, this game is Co-Op game at best. They shouldn't even be asking for a subscription fee at this point.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I bought the game and it didn't even keep me interested for my first month sub fee. I feel no obligation to pay a subscription fee for a game that does not deserve it.
Face it, this game is Co-Op game at best. They shouldn't even be asking for a subscription fee at this point.
No sorry my lord, i refuse to face it because i disagree with your opinion regarding SWTOR being a co op game. I hope i didn't offend you by refusing your command.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
No, not everyone hates it. Only you haters determined to hate it. And believe it or not, you're actually a minority. If you bring it up on the chats in the game, most people love it.
haters determined to hate it usually don't play the game they are determined to hate. just saying. anyway the haters would be accused for trolling if they say "the gameplay sucks big fat donkey balls and the story is a childish dating simulator with gay romances that no sane person would ever listen to".
Why should I support.... Err wait I never bought the game so guess I don't need to worry about the sub. EA/Bioware would need to pay me to play that pile of trash they call a "MMO".
I purchased the game since I played the beta at my friends and thought it was fun. Now I'm thinking $15 is too much since I rarely have time to play. I already cancelled my subscription because "hey I earned that $15" I'm not just going to give it to a company. It's like I'm not going to buy clothes I don't like just cause a company made them.
I am not going to buy SWTOR because it is not the type of MMO I am interested in. When somebody decides to produce a AAA 'virtual world' type game, I'll gladly support the project.
nah, I don't think players should ever support something they dont' believe in.
Having said that, the reality is that small devs are trying to do something different and without people supporting them we are not going to find many different games out there.
It's sort of a catch 22.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I wont comment on swtor, but this is bull.....If a game is not what you want, drop that sucker...If everyone falsely subbed to a game, just so they would keep pumping money into making games they didn't like....Games would never change.
I guess I will comment some....I am playing swtor, but I have to admit it is pretty shallow, has bad mechanics that actually make it more of a small group rpg, and even then bad matching imo. I don't think kotor and mmo mix too greatly atm....But they have money, they can hopefully work on content to fix the shortfalls....The new content they are going to release probably doesn't, but maybe the next batch...
I think its trying to be too many things, and it makes it fail at all those things, single player games have better story, most newer mmos have better mmo mechanics....Voice over story is nice, but you get through that, and the replay on it is limited at best, most stuff is quests you did on the main, so its spacebar...spacebar...spacebar....The light/dark gear, discourages character development, and choices don't really seem to matter much, ala the single player having better story mechanics, due to only having to keep track of one player....ITs a jumble....
I am still playing though, I will give them some more time, I am pessimistic....But they have till its problems become too much, I become too bored, or TSW/GW2 come out....Either way, I got my money out of it, and I am not trying to be a 'hater'....Just honest from my perspective....As perspective...I lasted about 3 months in Rift...I have typically played mmos atleast a year, and Rift was my shortest time in a mmo I paid for...I just don't see much depth in the latest offerings of the past 5 or so years.
See I think the exact opposite. I personally think SWTOR failing would do the mmo market a hell of a lot of good for a few reasons.
It might make the big corporate big wigs reconsider investing again and again into the same exactly formula leading to **Gasp** some innovation
It might just teach these folks that we as gamers cant just be bought by big prices, huge marketing schemes, and hype.
It might after six years FINALLY make developers wake the hell up.
I can understand why people would want SWTOR to fail, I can also see why people think it will change the shape of MMORPG's for the better. Sadly it won't. If SWTOR doesn't retain subscribers it weakens future developer requests for investment. Why invest 50million dollars into a break even MMORPG project? The argument will become "if an IP like Star Wars and company like Bioware can't make it work for 150million how can you for 50million?" This doesn't mean the MMORPG genre will die, but will suffer and probably evolve in a direction most won't appreciate.
Also those who think SWTOR is the way it is because "they only want money?" should re-think. LA, Bioware and EA could have made a lot more profit (not revenue) with little risk by focusing on Star Wars social network and mobile games. The star wars IP alone would have pulled in 50 million MAU, on average spending $0.10 each. This is a massive long term profit considering social and mobile games would have cost less than 1% of SWTOR.
SWTOR is the way it is because 11 million people seem to be addicted to the formula in WoW. So rather than focusing blame on EA and Bioware - blame those 11 million players.
SWTOR is like WoW so that entire communities can migrate from WoW with ease. Dividing established communities through innovation, visuals etc etc is impossible - most people don't care and just want to be doing something with friends. This has been the hurdle constantly for companies and Bioware have taken design decisions to give their game a chance to appeal by feeling familiar and comfortable at launch. Surely ensuring they have a populace so the massively multiplayer aspects of the game thrive is vital?
I disagree.
If anything wow has been in a slow decline over the past few years that is just getting steeper and steeper as the days go on. SWTOR is the way it is because WoW was successfull and corporate execs are focusing on the profitability and potential rather on the actual mood and feel of gamers. Which is what business usually does obviously.
The issue is with MMO'ers a lot of us are willing to try ANYTHING that comes down the block and then we will rip it to shreds when its the same damn game. Game devs for the most part seem to have either lost all touch with gamers or simply never had it to begin with. There are a few exceptions but it seems time and time again we have some rich dude in a corporate office more or less telling us that, "No thats what you say, but what you really want is X" and then a few months later their game implodes because for some reason they refuse to listen to the players.
EA is doing what it is doing to make money, if you disagree with that then... well I cant help yah. TOR failing will hopefully get it through future investors heads that you cant just reskin the same genre. If it doesnt then we will see a nice jump to indie gaming, however I dont think thats going to happen. MMO's simply have too much cash in them and they will continue to be chain produced (and most will fail) until we get another solid hit.
I just hope someone wakes up and starts innovating again and coming up with something completely different.
We need to change our ways and have more realistic expectations of new MMOs if the industry is going to survive.
No, developers need to make games we like if the industry is going to survive. Customers don't exist for the sake of the company, the company exists for the customers.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe
1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years.
A game that just launched has a problem if people are already reaching endgame content.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe
2.) We need to understand that if we want new content, we have to pay for it. If you like the game but want more content, unsubbing isn't going to help, but only make things worse.
You need to understand that if players don't like existing content, they absolutely do NOT have to pay for it. You don't seem to understand how businesses operate. If you supply a product your customers don't want, your business will fail. That's how it is.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe
3.) We really need to stop comparing everything to WoW. I think this is self-explanitory.
We will once everything stops trying to copy WoW.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe
4.) We really need to stop wishing every MMO that's not your kind of MMO will fail. Just because I might not like that style of MMO doesn't mean that it should fail, and nobody be allowed to play it.
Here I'll agree with you. However there also needs to be more variety in the MMO industry. At current most new games coming around are more or less clones of other popular games.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe
I'm not a SW:TOR fanboy, I'm just concerned what will happen to the industry if a huge financial investment like TOR can't buy its way into the market.
This in itself is a big problem with the video game industry as a whole. It's not budget that makes a game good, it's creativity. All the money in the world can't buy that, and its a focus too many game developers (not just of MMOs) have lost sight of in my opinion. A company ideally should NOT be able to "buy" its way into the market, it should make it's place through the entertainment value of it's product, not the development bill.
I haven't played SWTOR yet, so I can't say one way or another whether I like it or not, but you give all the WRONG reasons to pay for an MMORPG in your post here.
Comments
Now that you mention it, rememer this?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-23-if-trailers-told-the-truth-article?page=2
second video down...I couldnt help but laugh.
You mean delete all the MMO's on my drive, even the ones I like?
Who is "we" don't you mean you?
LMFAO. best joke of the day.
Same here ,i have played two years running at gamescom.What the OP seems to forget is ArenaNet have already had a game with great PVP,it's called GW1.
The thing is that the OP will be the first to leave SWTOR when the time comes,keep an eye on his post because these type of threads will always come back to burn ya on the ass.
And people still buying that crap...drinks on you..who's trolling whom now?
So a few things. Do I think they set the standard for how story presentation should be in future mmo's? umm yeah I doubt many can argue this. Do I think they set realistic expectations? hell no
This is not exactly something any dev can ever hope to achieve ever again. It is what the game will be known for in 20 years. The problem is they went for RPG and forgot MMO. Finding groups of 4 or raids does not equal a mmo in my book. In TOR outside of preset datacrons there is not a damn single reason to leave the path.
When I fully explore a zone in WoW or Rift I get a little achievement. If I find a hidden cave and kill a rare boss I get a little thing for points. I think sacrificing the open world for the rpg will destroy this game. Add a auto group dungeon finder and grats you have World of Queuecraft all over again. Why ddi they choose to leave the worlds dead and lifeless with nothing going on? Dynamic was a big word in 2011 for a reason and having staleness just kills the game for me.
I agree with you, and hopefully sandbox mmo's comes back, i know that Archage is out in KR and it looks awesome, the fact you can build a boat, make a hand glider and different assorment to bring back the RPG in the MMO.
GW 2 although themepark it looks awesome and plays spectacular back when i tried gc and pax demo. The thing i want developer do is to take the approach of new ideas to increase the enjoyment and experience to a different level.
If Anet can do it why not the rest? I understand it's risky, but if they really put much effort and commitment to what they are creating, it can end up amazing.
You know they seem to be doing ok with TOR. they created a super linear themepark with all those millions and people hate it. not all people. but the genre is festering with themeparks. They have a certain amount of time before uncle george see's it failing and sends Julio Torres in to fix it. and we all know how the last starwars MMO faired when he showed up looking like a goofy mark hamill with downs.
I see a team who are locked in now for the linear long haul.
I wish them well.
No, not everyone hates it. Only you haters determined to hate it. And believe it or not, you're actually a minority. If you bring it up on the chats in the game, most people love it.
Hahah yes.
I have my suspicions it may be a very clever troll post. But if it's not...
Then it basically reads as the "bad guy" in an Ayn Rand (or Terry Goodkind) novel.
"Oh, they tried so hard! You should support them even if you dislike their product. You wouldn't want them to feel like failures would you???"
Ridiculous. If you don't like a product, don't buy it. Maybe that will teach developers to stop coming out with stuff that people don't like.
This also sounds like the philosophy behind the 2008 bank bailouts.
"Yes, they messed up, but if you don't give them your money what will happen to the industry????"
Culling the weak from the herd is the natural mechanism of the free market. If you buy something that is a crappy product just because you are afraid of the market buckling if you don't, then you are sabotaging the free market.
Imagine what would have happened to the video game market if everyone bought ET (possibly the worst game ever made) for the Atari? Instead of the game industry crashing and then being revitalized as a much stronger force, it would have kept limping along putting out crap game after crap game because you the consumer are telling the developers that this is okay.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I bought the game and it didn't even keep me interested for my first month sub fee. I feel no obligation to pay a subscription fee for a game that does not deserve it.
Face it, this game is Co-Op game at best. They shouldn't even be asking for a subscription fee at this point.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
No sorry my lord, i refuse to face it because i disagree with your opinion regarding SWTOR being a co op game. I hope i didn't offend you by refusing your command.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
haters determined to hate it usually don't play the game they are determined to hate. just saying. anyway the haters would be accused for trolling if they say "the gameplay sucks big fat donkey balls and the story is a childish dating simulator with gay romances that no sane person would ever listen to".
(waiting for warning)
Why should I support.... Err wait I never bought the game so guess I don't need to worry about the sub. EA/Bioware would need to pay me to play that pile of trash they call a "MMO".
What? So pay them or they won't do another game?
If it is good people will play it, if not they won't ... who cares?
I purchased the game since I played the beta at my friends and thought it was fun. Now I'm thinking $15 is too much since I rarely have time to play. I already cancelled my subscription because "hey I earned that $15" I'm not just going to give it to a company. It's like I'm not going to buy clothes I don't like just cause a company made them.
I am not going to buy SWTOR because it is not the type of MMO I am interested in. When somebody decides to produce a AAA 'virtual world' type game, I'll gladly support the project.
I'm supposed to support a WoW clone made by a top company with a top publisher with ginormous funding?
I'd rather support Xsyson while we're at it. O.O
nah, I don't think players should ever support something they dont' believe in.
Having said that, the reality is that small devs are trying to do something different and without people supporting them we are not going to find many different games out there.
It's sort of a catch 22.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I would just like to ask, do you feel that you are playing a $300 million MMO when comparing it to other lower budget ones?
Where has the extra money been spent to make it so?
Core i5 13600KF, BeQuiet Pure Loop FX 360, 32gb DDR5-6000 XPG, WD SN850 NVMe ,PNY 3090 XLR8, Asus Prime Z790-A, Lian-Li O11 PCMR case (limited ed 1045/2000), 32" LG Ultragear 4k Monitor, Logitech G560 LightSync Sound, Razer Deathadder V2 and Razer Blackwidow V3 Keyboard
I wont comment on swtor, but this is bull.....If a game is not what you want, drop that sucker...If everyone falsely subbed to a game, just so they would keep pumping money into making games they didn't like....Games would never change.
I guess I will comment some....I am playing swtor, but I have to admit it is pretty shallow, has bad mechanics that actually make it more of a small group rpg, and even then bad matching imo. I don't think kotor and mmo mix too greatly atm....But they have money, they can hopefully work on content to fix the shortfalls....The new content they are going to release probably doesn't, but maybe the next batch...
I think its trying to be too many things, and it makes it fail at all those things, single player games have better story, most newer mmos have better mmo mechanics....Voice over story is nice, but you get through that, and the replay on it is limited at best, most stuff is quests you did on the main, so its spacebar...spacebar...spacebar....The light/dark gear, discourages character development, and choices don't really seem to matter much, ala the single player having better story mechanics, due to only having to keep track of one player....ITs a jumble....
I am still playing though, I will give them some more time, I am pessimistic....But they have till its problems become too much, I become too bored, or TSW/GW2 come out....Either way, I got my money out of it, and I am not trying to be a 'hater'....Just honest from my perspective....As perspective...I lasted about 3 months in Rift...I have typically played mmos atleast a year, and Rift was my shortest time in a mmo I paid for...I just don't see much depth in the latest offerings of the past 5 or so years.
The mmo genre will never get better if people support rehashed ideas since Everquest. We're supposed to be moving forward not backward.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
I dont bealive this thread really exist.... some player asking others to invest money on it, just because the game was expensive?
So, doesnt matter if the player wanna play or not? the game was expensive so we, mmo community, HAVE to suport it?
I dont know much about SWTOR, never play it and im not thinking playing soon, but i dont bealive SWTOR is so bad to deserve a post like this.
I think OP is a SWTOR hater, its the only logical explanation.
I disagree.
If anything wow has been in a slow decline over the past few years that is just getting steeper and steeper as the days go on. SWTOR is the way it is because WoW was successfull and corporate execs are focusing on the profitability and potential rather on the actual mood and feel of gamers. Which is what business usually does obviously.
The issue is with MMO'ers a lot of us are willing to try ANYTHING that comes down the block and then we will rip it to shreds when its the same damn game. Game devs for the most part seem to have either lost all touch with gamers or simply never had it to begin with. There are a few exceptions but it seems time and time again we have some rich dude in a corporate office more or less telling us that, "No thats what you say, but what you really want is X" and then a few months later their game implodes because for some reason they refuse to listen to the players.
EA is doing what it is doing to make money, if you disagree with that then... well I cant help yah. TOR failing will hopefully get it through future investors heads that you cant just reskin the same genre. If it doesnt then we will see a nice jump to indie gaming, however I dont think thats going to happen. MMO's simply have too much cash in them and they will continue to be chain produced (and most will fail) until we get another solid hit.
I just hope someone wakes up and starts innovating again and coming up with something completely different.
No, developers need to make games we like if the industry is going to survive. Customers don't exist for the sake of the company, the company exists for the customers.
A game that just launched has a problem if people are already reaching endgame content.
You need to understand that if players don't like existing content, they absolutely do NOT have to pay for it. You don't seem to understand how businesses operate. If you supply a product your customers don't want, your business will fail. That's how it is.
We will once everything stops trying to copy WoW.
Here I'll agree with you. However there also needs to be more variety in the MMO industry. At current most new games coming around are more or less clones of other popular games.
This in itself is a big problem with the video game industry as a whole. It's not budget that makes a game good, it's creativity. All the money in the world can't buy that, and its a focus too many game developers (not just of MMOs) have lost sight of in my opinion. A company ideally should NOT be able to "buy" its way into the market, it should make it's place through the entertainment value of it's product, not the development bill.
I haven't played SWTOR yet, so I can't say one way or another whether I like it or not, but you give all the WRONG reasons to pay for an MMORPG in your post here.