Ahaha the irony of some of the people on the forums. Whether its people clammoring for large-scale PvP then QQing when something like the SWTOR Valor-farm fests happen because its unfair. Or people who complain that society is doomed due to self-centered nature, and then want game developers to make a game catered to them... The irony is strong in him.
OP regardless of the legitimacy of your concerns about the industry and the "dumbing down" effect, you have to see the irony in your statements...
Calling out developers for listening to whiners on the forums and then turning around whining on the forums about the whiners because they aren't making the game you specifically want...
disagree, there are plenty of brilliant waiting room games, vindictus countless moba games and so on
me and probaly most people want to play mmorpgs,but there is always :
i did this, i dont feel like doing this for next 2+ months, i dont feel like gearing up, waiting for patch,gearing up, waiting for patch gearing up, its over and over and over again same and same , if anyone 4-5 years ago told me that i would say a word against hardcore raiding , i would never believed, i loved and i enjoyed it, i did it everyday
but i did again and again, in same and new game, again again again again and again, thats where themeparks fails
thats why new theme parks fails, you either play a lot in first 1-2 months, achieve all and quit,or you play for month, achieve half realize you did this already, you know how it will end and quit, there is no community holding like it was for example in wow, when me/you raided 4~ years ago
im sucker for advanding games, civ , total war, m&b, any of that kinda game where you advance in one or another way,
mmorpgs are all about advancement but they provide 1 or 2 paths to advance, gear and some offer alternative lvling system at max lvl(rift,aoc, probably bunch other ) but thats just 2, and both are broken, gear isnt advancement its broken loop, looping and looping and looping, and lvling after max lvl just ruins the game for everyone new, because gap gets bigger and bigger, and frankly doesnt provide fun advancement either
i have high hopes for archeage too, why? because of buildings mostly, lets be frank most sandbox are total crap, which provides open field to kill someone, go shoot someone in any of 9000+ fps games, thats about how varried gameplay they offer, despite being sanbox which should be " infinitive possibilities to do nothing in reality, wake up "
tell me sanbox where i could take over town/city, tax npcs for gold from vendors and quest reward money, allow different quest, build a city, create quests maybe? or get generic ones, invent items to be sold in my town ( all in balanced category mind you ), build a castle and defend it ,build farms and bake bread, go into cave and slay dragon,
there aint any, just aint
and there proably will never be deep game like that , because for some reason creating more than 3 building is too hard for any mmorpg.. because offering multiple advancement paths are hard too,
i want to join guild, build a town, build a castle, get university, research new buildings, new armor for my guards, new potions for my merchants , i want to be in strongest guild, ruling best town on that server, i want my guards to slaughter plundering guilds, i want to do instance to get better gear too, i want real game that will offer me advancement , i dont want 200 models for every building , it build be nice, but heck add extra window, extra flag or new npc or anything just to indicate that my shop is now lvl 2 out of endless lvls , yes i want endless content not this lvl 1-3
i think people really want advancement games, heck i dont need to think i know that, thats human nature, and every game out there is about that , just that they never actually provide it
Ahaha the irony of some of the people on the forums. Whether its people clammoring for large-scale PvP then QQing when something like the SWTOR Valor-farm fests happen because its unfair. Or people who complain that society is doomed due to self-centered nature, and then want game developers to make a game catered to them... The irony is strong in him.
OP regardless of the legitimacy of your concerns about the industry and the "dumbing down" effect, you have to see the irony in your statements...
Calling out developers for listening to whiners on the forums and then turning around whining on the forums about the whiners because they aren't making the game you specifically want...
ToR fast travel complaints are completely warranted. WOW barely wasted players' time at all with non-gameplay (travel), so when ToR comes along and takes a step backwards, players are quick to point out how that makes things less fun.
Centralized social hubs like ToR's stations obviously work, and I'm not sure things would be better by diffusing this population over several major social hubs.
That said, the requirement to sit near the social hub to find a flashpoint group is completely ridiculous, because I'd much rather be out playing the game while finding a group than being forced to sit in non-gameplay (at a station.)
As for world PVP and what players "don't want"? Players don't want their PVP to not be about PVP (which is exactly what happens in World PVP, where more than half the game is spent building up and traveling around, and the actual time spent PVPing is a fraction of the overall time spent playing.) It's no big surprise that PVPers want PVP, and that World PVP provides very little (and bad) PVP.
Nobody ever wanted to play an arbitrary definition of what MMORPGs "should be". Most players just want a fun game first, and if it's also a virtual world then great (but if not: no big loss.)
Okay. Well, you have WoW, AoC, WAR, STO, RIFT, and SWTOR. Those meet your linear requirements.
So many people miss the point of the OP. Casuals come in and say they want to play casual leisure games. As if the OP doesn't know this. He does know it. That's why he thinks its weird that they play MMOs. Instead of something like Diablo.
I think the world would be a better place if they had made WoW a more Diablo type game. Like started with Diablo and added the WoW style graphics and push from there to more uninstanced areas and adding some features from EQ. Starting with EQ and constantly pushing towards Diablo is starting with the wrong end and ruining the MMO genre when there was a much faster and more intuitive way to do it without crapping on a genre that was never intended for casuals.
Thanks to all who agreed with me - funny thing is I'm only 28 and I already have become a bitter old man who wonders wtf is up with kids these days. Maybe I'm just an old soul...
2nd-
I'd actually like the option to instant travel between planet's starports in TOR. What is REALLY bad are the planets that have the space stations your have to go to first... why? For some quest before you land on the surface? Pointless.
I'm guessing the reason they didn't put this in at launch is that they have big plans for the starships and as such want people to be dependant on and used to the ships.
Kind of like we are only seeing 1/2 the design, and at 50% it kind of sucks for a travel.
Once they add a lot more stuff for space then we'll be like, wow I'm glad they didn't let us instant teleport between planets and such.
ToR fast travel complaints are completely warranted. WOW barely wasted players' time at all with non-gameplay (travel), so when ToR comes along and takes a step backwards, players are quick to point out how that makes things less fun.
Centralized social hubs like ToR's stations obviously work, and I'm not sure things would be better by diffusing this population over several major social hubs.
That said, the requirement to sit near the social hub to find a flashpoint group is completely ridiculous, because I'd much rather be out playing the game while finding a group than being forced to sit in non-gameplay (at a station.)
As for world PVP and what players "don't want"? Players don't want their PVP to not be about PVP (which is exactly what happens in World PVP, where more than half the game is spent building up and traveling around, and the actual time spent PVPing is a fraction of the overall time spent playing.) It's no big surprise that PVPers want PVP, and that World PVP provides very little (and bad) PVP.
Nobody ever wanted to play an arbitrary definition of what MMORPGs "should be". Most players just want a fun game first, and if it's also a virtual world then great (but if not: no big loss.)
Okay. Well, you have WoW, AoC, WAR, STO, RIFT, and SWTOR. Those meet your linear requirements.
You mind if the real players get a game, too?
Game developers obviously don't think you're real enough...
Never stops amazing me that some people feel the need to blame the market, not the Dev's
The Dev's make the games, and then change them:) Why blame the customer? They can ask for what they want, but they can change nothing in a game. Just move on to the next. Which they will do anyhow soon enough.
Who sounds like the spoiled ones really? The ones that want what they want and if they do not get it that call others names, or blame others parents?:
As someone above said, look at CCP. They had a vision of what they wanted. They kept that vision through the slow growth, and pretty much made a game just the way they had envisioned it. Not much caving in to anyone at all along the way.
They could of very well changed that game into a PVE game at any time they wanted and most likely made much more money. But that would not be the game they wanted to make and believed in.
See, Dev's make the choices, the players, and customers do not. Blame the right people:)
Firstly, all the doesn't make you seem like your winning or your point is correct, it only shows the fear and weakness you have in your argument.
Blaming the devs is such a stupid argument. They're only following what players want, and the majority of them are casual users, so they make their content casual heavy. Yes, CCP is a great example of staying true to their vision, but guess what? If they would've went the casual route, I'm sure they would have potentially millions of players. Same for FFXI. Old as hell MMO, and its still stupidly hard and enjoyable. Why? Cause it rewards you. It doesn't say "Oh, you failed? Here, just rez and try again and don't learn from your mistake." It says "Oh you died? Here is the punishment for doing whatever you did wrong"
So don't point the blame at the wrong people. The PLAYERS are the problem. The devs just do what they want. Does that make for a overall crappy MMO? Yes, it does. Its why so many players can't enjoy the majority of MMORPGS being released lately. Let us hope the future of MMOs brings back actual reward for skillful playing and not these watered down games we get nowadays.
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
Agreed. What I'm seeing is a good ol' fashion showdown between the hardcore and casual gamers. There are people who want to LIVE in an online world... like my brother in law. He has no job and sits in his basement playing games. He hit 50 in TOR in about a week. I'm more like you White, I have a job and a lot going on and I want to get in a few hours with others and have fun. My brother in law plays 10 hours a night... I play about 10 hours a week, with about 7 of those falling on weekends.
Neither playstyle is "wrong". It's just a playstyle. It just so happens that casuals gamers are where the money is, so that's where the money's going. Think about it. Hardcore players buy the game and burn out quickly, as they blow through the content and then complain it wasn't hard/long enough and un-sub. Casual players take 6 months to hit level 50 and keep paying the whole time....as a businessperson, where would you put your money?
I'm just saying, this is why things are changing. As the great hunters of old would follow the Buffalo, the businessmen follow the money. Perhaps sad for some, but true nonetheless. Casual gamers don't have time to travel 30 mins to a quest as we may only have an hour to play...lol. So, faster mounts sooner is what happens, smaller cut up worlds with easier travel. Just because that's not fun for you, doesn't mean no one likes it. And we still want MMO's, not CORPG'S.
You could always try your hand at Vanguard? Mortal Online? Darkfall?
Thanks to all who agreed with me - funny thing is I'm only 28 and I already have become a bitter old man who wonders wtf is up with kids these days. Maybe I'm just an old soul...
2nd-
I'd actually like the option to instant travel between planet's starports in TOR. What is REALLY bad are the planets that have the space stations your have to go to first... why? For some quest before you land on the surface? Pointless.
I'm guessing the reason they didn't put this in at launch is that they have big plans for the starships and as such want people to be dependant on and used to the ships.
Kind of like we are only seeing 1/2 the design, and at 50% it kind of sucks for a travel.
Once they add a lot more stuff for space then we'll be like, wow I'm glad they didn't let us instant teleport between planets and such.
Just a theory though, of course.
I'm really hoping your prediction is correct in this case, would love to see that sort of content added.
I'm still holding out, haven't broken the seal yet on my copy of SWTOR, waiting for the appropriate time.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Game developers obvious don't think you're real enough...
Actually it's that there aren't enough of them to be a smart investment for the millions of dollars it takes to create a AAA MMORPG.
Sad, but true.
Investment size = potential/expected player base.
Sandbox MMOs are thusly made by Indie devs. Though eventually I think we'll start to see a shift back towards the center, as we've gone very far off the deepend.
#1. Instant Travel: I remember the ultimate sigh I would give when entering the starport just as the shuttle is taking off. Yes. It sucked. However, there was something aways going on at the starport, e.g., trading, dueling, talking, examining other players, etc. It was an elusive hub.
People started to complain in the forum. The devs then added instant travel. After this, all the hustle 'n bustle vanished. I couldn't find anyone. The game looked more dead that it really was.
#2. Battle Fatigue Fix: I remember the ultimate sigh I would give after dying, as I would then have to find someone to heal my battle fatigue. The medical center was the only place to heal battle fatigue. Again, while players waiting in line, they got to experience trading, dueling, talking, examing other players, and basic bs'ing around.
People complained. They remove battle fatigue. This rendered the medical center as moot. Just another ghost town...
Ultimately, people will quit if the game doesn't have a social element. People will not quit because of having to wait 5 minutes to travel. Leave it be.
Maybe the problem with the direction of the genre has nothing at all to do with player wants and or feedback and everything to do with developers trying to push the genre toward the Console market?
I'm a casual player and I don't want a corpg or lobby based game, but neither do I want to return to the old days of camping spots and loot drop grinds, hell levels and time requirments that would tax even a retiree. I want persistant, breathing worlds that are immersive and fun to play, but not if they're going to suck the life out of you, turning you into a basement dweller.
So many people miss the point of the OP. Casuals come in and say they want to play casual leisure games. As if the OP doesn't know this. He does know it. That's why he thinks its weird that they play MMOs. Instead of something like Diablo.
I think the world would be a better place if they had made WoW a more Diablo type game. Like started with Diablo and added the WoW style graphics and push from there to more uninstanced areas and adding some features from EQ. Starting with EQ and constantly pushing towards Diablo is starting with the wrong end and ruining the MMO genre when there was a much faster and more intuitive way to do it without crapping on a genre that was never intended for casuals.
Ok, I am the "casual" you speak of and I don't want a CORPG. I want an MMO. Just because I want some conveniences also, doesn't mean I don't want to interact with other players. We've talked about this before. Diablo and other CORPG's only have your group in the area, no others. I don't want that. I like TOR where I run across others all the time.
Just because we don't want your style of MMO, doesn't mean we don't want an MMO.
And it's completely your opinion that the MMO genre was not intended for casuals. Casuals spend more time and money on MMO's as they don't burn through the content, bitch and un-sub as fast as hardcore gamers. I don't need to prove I'm correct about that... just look where the money is going. Look where the genre is going. I'm as happy as can be with what is coming out and someone else is not. That proves I'm correct....lol
ToR fast travel complaints are completely warranted. WOW barely wasted players' time at all with non-gameplay (travel), so when ToR comes along and takes a step backwards, players are quick to point out how that makes things less fun.
Centralized social hubs like ToR's stations obviously work, and I'm not sure things would be better by diffusing this population over several major social hubs.
That said, the requirement to sit near the social hub to find a flashpoint group is completely ridiculous, because I'd much rather be out playing the game while finding a group than being forced to sit in non-gameplay (at a station.)
As for world PVP and what players "don't want"? Players don't want their PVP to not be about PVP (which is exactly what happens in World PVP, where more than half the game is spent building up and traveling around, and the actual time spent PVPing is a fraction of the overall time spent playing.) It's no big surprise that PVPers want PVP, and that World PVP provides very little (and bad) PVP.
Nobody ever wanted to play an arbitrary definition of what MMORPGs "should be". Most players just want a fun game first, and if it's also a virtual world then great (but if not: no big loss.)
Okay. Well, you have WoW, AoC, WAR, STO, RIFT, and SWTOR. Those meet your linear requirements.
You mind if the real players get a game, too?
Game developers obviously don't think you're real enough...
Yes, because every Theme Park game post-WoW has been a raging success story, eh?
#1. Instant Travel: I remember the ultimate sigh I would give when entering the starport just as the shuttle is taking off. Yes. It sucked. However, there was something aways going on at the starport, e.g., trading, dueling, talking, examining other players, etc. It was an elusive hub.
People started to complain in the forum. The devs then added instant travel. After this, all the hustle 'n bustle vanished. I couldn't find anyone. The game looked more dead that it really was.
Ultimately, people will quit if the game doesn't have a social element. People will not quit because of having to wait 5 minutes to travel. Leave it be.
Even WoW had/has the zepplin's and tram. Used to be great spots to chat with random folks, check out gear, duel other players etc. while waiting for the zep to show up.
Thanks to all who agreed with me - funny thing is I'm only 28 and I already have become a bitter old man who wonders wtf is up with kids these days. Maybe I'm just an old soul...
I'm 26 and I feel the same way now. The more I think about it the more I think the problem with all these new games are more the people playing them and less the games themselves. Should start the bitter old man brigade (BOMB).
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
Agreed. What I'm seeing is a good ol' fashion showdown between the hardcore and casual gamers. There are people who want to LIVE in an online world... like my brother in law. He has no job and sits in his basement playing games. He hit 50 in TOR in about a week. I'm more like you White, I have a job and a lot going on and I want to get in a few hours with others and have fun. My brother in law plays 10 hours a night... I play about 10 hours a week, with about 7 of those falling on weekends.
Neither playstyle is "wrong". It's just a playstyle. It just so happens that casuals gamers are where the money is, so that's where the money's going. Think about it. Hardcore players buy the game and burn out quickly, as they blow through the content and then complain it wasn't hard/long enough and un-sub. Casual players take 6 months to hit level 50 and keep paying the whole time....as a businessperson, where would you put your money?
I'm just saying, this is why things are changing. As the great hunters of old would follow the Buffalo, the businessmen follow the money. Perhaps sad for some, but true nonetheless. Casual gamers don't have time to travel 30 mins to a quest as we may only have an hour to play...lol. So, faster mounts sooner is what happens, smaller cut up worlds with easier travel. Just because that's not fun for you, doesn't mean no one likes it. And we still want MMO's, not CORPG'S.
You could always try your hand at Vanguard? Mortal Online? Darkfall?
Not all people with limited time want instant everything. So don't say that people with limited time want this watered down, instant crap. I would be lucky to play a longer game more casually. I won't have to jump games every other month like everyone else haha.
You get bonus XP and a bonus chance for loot to drop from enemies if you play in a group, and the bigger the group the higher the bonus and higher the chance.
The group dialogue/conversation system is a lot of fun and also gives you social points for purchasing unique vanity stuff like clothing, pets, etc.
But what do people do? Power level solo to the level cap.
But imagine... you actually play this game like a MMO - you team up with others, friends, guildies, and strangers alike, for all the quests and for open world PvP (which would be so much more fun if it was always group on group) how much better would the game be with that kind of community?
NOTHING about the game changed in his scenario, only the way the player's played.
Is TOR unique in this? Nope. Classic WoW, despite some of the good things the game did, really was the start of the end of open world grouping and the game that changed MMO players habbits and perspectives.
ToR fast travel complaints are completely warranted. WOW barely wasted players' time at all with non-gameplay (travel), so when ToR comes along and takes a step backwards, players are quick to point out how that makes things less fun.
Centralized social hubs like ToR's stations obviously work, and I'm not sure things would be better by diffusing this population over several major social hubs.
That said, the requirement to sit near the social hub to find a flashpoint group is completely ridiculous, because I'd much rather be out playing the game while finding a group than being forced to sit in non-gameplay (at a station.)
As for world PVP and what players "don't want"? Players don't want their PVP to not be about PVP (which is exactly what happens in World PVP, where more than half the game is spent building up and traveling around, and the actual time spent PVPing is a fraction of the overall time spent playing.) It's no big surprise that PVPers want PVP, and that World PVP provides very little (and bad) PVP.
Nobody ever wanted to play an arbitrary definition of what MMORPGs "should be". Most players just want a fun game first, and if it's also a virtual world then great (but if not: no big loss.)
Okay. Well, you have WoW, AoC, WAR, STO, RIFT, and SWTOR. Those meet your linear requirements.
You mind if the real players get a game, too?
Game developers obviously don't think you're real enough...
Yes, because every Theme Park game post-WoW has been a raging success story, eh?
How's Xyson, Perpectuum, Darkfall, and Mortal Online doing for you? Is Eve still carrying the sandbox torch? SWG managing ok?
You get bonus XP and a bonus chance for loot to drop from enemies if you play in a group, and the bigger the group the higher the bonus and higher the chance.
The group dialogue/conversation system is a lot of fun and also gives you social points for purchasing unique vanity stuff like clothing, pets, etc.
But what do people do? Power level solo to the level cap.
But imagine... you actually play this game like a MMO - you team up with others, friends, guildies, and strangers alike, for all the quests and for open world PvP (which would be so much more fun if it was always group on group) how much better would the game be with that kind of community?
NOTHING about the game changed in his scenario, only the way the player's played.
Is TOR unique in this? Nope. Classic WoW, despite some of the good things the game did, really was the start of the end of open world grouping and the game that changed MMO players habbits and perspectives.
That's why I think games should have separate group/solo levels. This might be derailing things a bit here, but I think having solo-specific and group-specific leveling (skill-based works well here). There is obviously some overlap of skills, but yea no recent game has made a reasonable effort to encourage grouping.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
The game with the most reward for the least effort wins in today's market.
When games cant get any more dumbed down, then they make them faster to complete.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
That's why I think games should have separate group/solo levels. This might be derailing things a bit here, but I think having solo-specific and group-specific leveling (skill-based works well here). There is obviously some overlap of skills, but yea no recent game has made a reasonable effort to encourage grouping.
You have to force it without forcing it. Make it natural and easy, no forced rules and restriction (like Holy Trinity)
You have to prevent seperating players based on arbitrary numbers like levels or skill points.
You have to prevent excessive population spread by intelligent world design which encourages lots of back travel, not the current trend of plowing through an area's content then never, ever going back to that place again.
Honestly? There is only one upcoming game that seems to understand this, but only time will tell if A) they get it right and if players actually enjoy it.
Comments
I agree. I fail to see how MMOs are different from an ordinary multiplayer game.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
We have a winner!
Hrmm it didnt quote Meltdown
This is a good post.
disagree, there are plenty of brilliant waiting room games, vindictus countless moba games and so on
me and probaly most people want to play mmorpgs,but there is always :
i did this, i dont feel like doing this for next 2+ months, i dont feel like gearing up, waiting for patch,gearing up, waiting for patch gearing up, its over and over and over again same and same , if anyone 4-5 years ago told me that i would say a word against hardcore raiding , i would never believed, i loved and i enjoyed it, i did it everyday
but i did again and again, in same and new game, again again again again and again, thats where themeparks fails
thats why new theme parks fails, you either play a lot in first 1-2 months, achieve all and quit,or you play for month, achieve half realize you did this already, you know how it will end and quit, there is no community holding like it was for example in wow, when me/you raided 4~ years ago
im sucker for advanding games, civ , total war, m&b, any of that kinda game where you advance in one or another way,
mmorpgs are all about advancement but they provide 1 or 2 paths to advance, gear and some offer alternative lvling system at max lvl(rift,aoc, probably bunch other ) but thats just 2, and both are broken, gear isnt advancement its broken loop, looping and looping and looping, and lvling after max lvl just ruins the game for everyone new, because gap gets bigger and bigger, and frankly doesnt provide fun advancement either
i have high hopes for archeage too, why? because of buildings mostly, lets be frank most sandbox are total crap, which provides open field to kill someone, go shoot someone in any of 9000+ fps games, thats about how varried gameplay they offer, despite being sanbox which should be " infinitive possibilities to do nothing in reality, wake up "
tell me sanbox where i could take over town/city, tax npcs for gold from vendors and quest reward money, allow different quest, build a city, create quests maybe? or get generic ones, invent items to be sold in my town ( all in balanced category mind you ), build a castle and defend it ,build farms and bake bread, go into cave and slay dragon,
there aint any, just aint
and there proably will never be deep game like that , because for some reason creating more than 3 building is too hard for any mmorpg.. because offering multiple advancement paths are hard too,
i want to join guild, build a town, build a castle, get university, research new buildings, new armor for my guards, new potions for my merchants , i want to be in strongest guild, ruling best town on that server, i want my guards to slaughter plundering guilds, i want to do instance to get better gear too, i want real game that will offer me advancement , i dont want 200 models for every building , it build be nice, but heck add extra window, extra flag or new npc or anything just to indicate that my shop is now lvl 2 out of endless lvls , yes i want endless content not this lvl 1-3
i think people really want advancement games, heck i dont need to think i know that, thats human nature, and every game out there is about that , just that they never actually provide it
Lets try this again.
We have a winner!
Okay. Well, you have WoW, AoC, WAR, STO, RIFT, and SWTOR. Those meet your linear requirements.
You mind if the real players get a game, too?
So many people miss the point of the OP. Casuals come in and say they want to play casual leisure games. As if the OP doesn't know this. He does know it. That's why he thinks its weird that they play MMOs. Instead of something like Diablo.
I think the world would be a better place if they had made WoW a more Diablo type game. Like started with Diablo and added the WoW style graphics and push from there to more uninstanced areas and adding some features from EQ. Starting with EQ and constantly pushing towards Diablo is starting with the wrong end and ruining the MMO genre when there was a much faster and more intuitive way to do it without crapping on a genre that was never intended for casuals.
Thanks to all who agreed with me - funny thing is I'm only 28 and I already have become a bitter old man who wonders wtf is up with kids these days. Maybe I'm just an old soul...
2nd-
I'd actually like the option to instant travel between planet's starports in TOR. What is REALLY bad are the planets that have the space stations your have to go to first... why? For some quest before you land on the surface? Pointless.
I'm guessing the reason they didn't put this in at launch is that they have big plans for the starships and as such want people to be dependant on and used to the ships.
Kind of like we are only seeing 1/2 the design, and at 50% it kind of sucks for a travel.
Once they add a lot more stuff for space then we'll be like, wow I'm glad they didn't let us instant teleport between planets and such.
Just a theory though, of course.
Game developers obviously don't think you're real enough...
Firstly, all the
doesn't make you seem like your winning or your point is correct, it only shows the fear and weakness you have in your argument.
Blaming the devs is such a stupid argument. They're only following what players want, and the majority of them are casual users, so they make their content casual heavy. Yes, CCP is a great example of staying true to their vision, but guess what? If they would've went the casual route, I'm sure they would have potentially millions of players. Same for FFXI. Old as hell MMO, and its still stupidly hard and enjoyable. Why? Cause it rewards you. It doesn't say "Oh, you failed? Here, just rez and try again and don't learn from your mistake." It says "Oh you died? Here is the punishment for doing whatever you did wrong"
So don't point the blame at the wrong people. The PLAYERS are the problem. The devs just do what they want. Does that make for a overall crappy MMO? Yes, it does. Its why so many players can't enjoy the majority of MMORPGS being released lately. Let us hope the future of MMOs brings back actual reward for skillful playing and not these watered down games we get nowadays.
Agreed. What I'm seeing is a good ol' fashion showdown between the hardcore and casual gamers. There are people who want to LIVE in an online world... like my brother in law. He has no job and sits in his basement playing games. He hit 50 in TOR in about a week. I'm more like you White, I have a job and a lot going on and I want to get in a few hours with others and have fun. My brother in law plays 10 hours a night... I play about 10 hours a week, with about 7 of those falling on weekends.
Neither playstyle is "wrong". It's just a playstyle. It just so happens that casuals gamers are where the money is, so that's where the money's going. Think about it. Hardcore players buy the game and burn out quickly, as they blow through the content and then complain it wasn't hard/long enough and un-sub. Casual players take 6 months to hit level 50 and keep paying the whole time....as a businessperson, where would you put your money?
I'm just saying, this is why things are changing. As the great hunters of old would follow the Buffalo, the businessmen follow the money. Perhaps sad for some, but true nonetheless. Casual gamers don't have time to travel 30 mins to a quest as we may only have an hour to play...lol. So, faster mounts sooner is what happens, smaller cut up worlds with easier travel. Just because that's not fun for you, doesn't mean no one likes it. And we still want MMO's, not CORPG'S.
You could always try your hand at Vanguard? Mortal Online? Darkfall?
I'm really hoping your prediction is correct in this case, would love to see that sort of content added.
I'm still holding out, haven't broken the seal yet on my copy of SWTOR, waiting for the appropriate time.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Actually it's that there aren't enough of them to be a smart investment for the millions of dollars it takes to create a AAA MMORPG.
Sad, but true.
Investment size = potential/expected player base.
Sandbox MMOs are thusly made by Indie devs. Though eventually I think we'll start to see a shift back towards the center, as we've gone very far off the deepend.
I agree with the OP.
My first MMO was SWG.
#1. Instant Travel: I remember the ultimate sigh I would give when entering the starport just as the shuttle is taking off. Yes. It sucked. However, there was something aways going on at the starport, e.g., trading, dueling, talking, examining other players, etc. It was an elusive hub.
People started to complain in the forum. The devs then added instant travel. After this, all the hustle 'n bustle vanished. I couldn't find anyone. The game looked more dead that it really was.
#2. Battle Fatigue Fix: I remember the ultimate sigh I would give after dying, as I would then have to find someone to heal my battle fatigue. The medical center was the only place to heal battle fatigue. Again, while players waiting in line, they got to experience trading, dueling, talking, examing other players, and basic bs'ing around.
People complained. They remove battle fatigue. This rendered the medical center as moot. Just another ghost town...
Ultimately, people will quit if the game doesn't have a social element. People will not quit because of having to wait 5 minutes to travel. Leave it be.
Maybe the problem with the direction of the genre has nothing at all to do with player wants and or feedback and everything to do with developers trying to push the genre toward the Console market?
I'm a casual player and I don't want a corpg or lobby based game, but neither do I want to return to the old days of camping spots and loot drop grinds, hell levels and time requirments that would tax even a retiree. I want persistant, breathing worlds that are immersive and fun to play, but not if they're going to suck the life out of you, turning you into a basement dweller.
Ok, I am the "casual" you speak of and I don't want a CORPG. I want an MMO. Just because I want some conveniences also, doesn't mean I don't want to interact with other players. We've talked about this before. Diablo and other CORPG's only have your group in the area, no others. I don't want that. I like TOR where I run across others all the time.
Just because we don't want your style of MMO, doesn't mean we don't want an MMO.
And it's completely your opinion that the MMO genre was not intended for casuals. Casuals spend more time and money on MMO's as they don't burn through the content, bitch and un-sub as fast as hardcore gamers. I don't need to prove I'm correct about that... just look where the money is going. Look where the genre is going. I'm as happy as can be with what is coming out and someone else is not. That proves I'm correct....lol
Yes, because every Theme Park game post-WoW has been a raging success story, eh?
Even WoW had/has the zepplin's and tram. Used to be great spots to chat with random folks, check out gear, duel other players etc. while waiting for the zep to show up.
I do miss that.
I'm 26 and I feel the same way now. The more I think about it the more I think the problem with all these new games are more the people playing them and less the games themselves. Should start the bitter old man brigade (BOMB).
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Not all people with limited time want instant everything. So don't say that people with limited time want this watered down, instant crap. I would be lucky to play a longer game more casually. I won't have to jump games every other month like everyone else haha.
I mean, imagine this....
You take TOR-
You get bonus XP and a bonus chance for loot to drop from enemies if you play in a group, and the bigger the group the higher the bonus and higher the chance.
The group dialogue/conversation system is a lot of fun and also gives you social points for purchasing unique vanity stuff like clothing, pets, etc.
But what do people do? Power level solo to the level cap.
But imagine... you actually play this game like a MMO - you team up with others, friends, guildies, and strangers alike, for all the quests and for open world PvP (which would be so much more fun if it was always group on group) how much better would the game be with that kind of community?
NOTHING about the game changed in his scenario, only the way the player's played.
Is TOR unique in this? Nope. Classic WoW, despite some of the good things the game did, really was the start of the end of open world grouping and the game that changed MMO players habbits and perspectives.
How's Xyson, Perpectuum, Darkfall, and Mortal Online doing for you? Is Eve still carrying the sandbox torch? SWG managing ok?
That's why I think games should have separate group/solo levels. This might be derailing things a bit here, but I think having solo-specific and group-specific leveling (skill-based works well here). There is obviously some overlap of skills, but yea no recent game has made a reasonable effort to encourage grouping.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
The game with the most reward for the least effort wins in today's market.
When games cant get any more dumbed down, then they make them faster to complete.
You have to force it without forcing it. Make it natural and easy, no forced rules and restriction (like Holy Trinity)
You have to prevent seperating players based on arbitrary numbers like levels or skill points.
You have to prevent excessive population spread by intelligent world design which encourages lots of back travel, not the current trend of plowing through an area's content then never, ever going back to that place again.
Honestly? There is only one upcoming game that seems to understand this, but only time will tell if A) they get it right and
if players actually enjoy it.