Many people want open worlds, but only to go "Oh! That is cool." and then walk away. Things just aren't as impressive when you've seen it for the 100th time. That is why sandbox games like Minecraft are cool, because you can visit the same place again and things may have changed. There is a lot more exploration when you've got players building content to see. Themepark MMOs just don't work like that at the moment. The world doesn't change much when people are away. People just want to ride the rides if there is nothing new to look at.
GW2 might have a changing world, but I'm not sure how effective it will be to getting players to re-visit a place.
Anyways, about World PvP in WoW. Before I left sometime in 4.3 to play SWTOR with my friends, my friends made a successful World PvP guild on our server that I participated in. It was successful because we had fun. We atleast PvPed one day of each week at the gates of Orgrimmar. I think some people might argue that it would be more fun to PvP around the rest of the world, but when you've got a group of 10 or more people that isn't the case. Having all the Horde in Orgrimmar actually made the PvP more fun, because then the players were focused into one big mass. PvPing around the rest of the world was only really fun for solo PvP. It used to be fun fighting around summoning stones in groups, but you had to wait for a raid to come by before you could have fun. Inside an enemy city you don't have to wait. People will jump off of their flying mounts just to try to overwhelm you. The point I'm trying to get at is what makes world PvP fun isn't really about the size of world as much as it is having two groups of players slaughtering eachother with no clear objective. Orgrimmar could have been an instanced zone and we probably would have been happy with the PvP.
So many people miss the point of the OP. Casuals come in and say they want to play casual leisure games. As if the OP doesn't know this. He does know it. That's why he thinks its weird that they play MMOs. Instead of something like Diablo.
It is very simple. There is NOTHING like Diablo to be played today (until Diablo 3 of course). Think about what is needed in a game like that:
1) good co-op content
2) RPG type combat mechanics
3) progression
MMORPGs are *good fit* to those requirements for many. The open world and some quests don't hurt either. So i don't think it is weird at all. It is actually very natural. MMORPGs unintentionally fill a vacuum.
Look at D3. Blizz is activey balancing it, and adding *some* selected MMO features (like an auction house). The new insight here is that *some* but not all MMOs features, combined with good action RPG combat & progression like Diablo, is going to be the new "killer app".
I probably will play Diablo 3, as opposed to a MMO, as my main game when it is out. But at the same time, Diablo 3 is just ONE game, and does not cover all other settings. So there is room for others.
To some extend, games like STO, DDO (and of course Hellgate London) is more like Diablo than *your* notion of a MMO. The fact that they are called MMO is just incidental.
Yes, Diablo doesn't cover the market. But it was a much better starting point for what WoW has turned into over the years than EQ. If WoW had just started with the Diablo model and added select mmo features instead of starting with an MMO and adding select Diablo features followed by constantly adding more and more Diablo style features over time, they not only could have saved oodles of money and changes in the game sucking up Dev time, but they wouldn't have also hijacked MMOs. Guildwars did this perfectly. They made the game that people actually wanted and larger "MMOs" are continuously becoming more like GW every update. The only thing is that GW didn't have the Blizzard machine and more marketing money than Jesus like WoW did. Imagine how much more casual friendly the market would be if Blizzard had made a more GW style game or GW had had the right marketing and how much better the actual MMO genre would be for people who actually wanted to play MMOs?
That's why I really hate Blizzard. Not because WoW is bad but because they made the wrong decision and killed my genre. It would have been better if WoW was terrible, then it would have been a non issue.
Reading some of these arrogant, ignorant, and some just down right rude posts made me think of the next reality show smash hit (Because those are just as big as the garabge MMO's of today).
Have a video camera rolling on a known forum troll doing their daily "safe behind a computer screen" chest thumping, then have the person (Or people) they are arguing with show up at their house, or the library, or wherever they are posting from and see how their demeanor changes.
Vast majority of players treat MMOs as games, not virtual worlds, but it's not because they're spoiled brats. Quite the opposite - most players are adults with full-time jobs and commitments, and they can't afford to waste their entertainment time spending hours working or running in game. This "instant gratification" is reasonable expectation of players who can devote only so much time to gaming, and want to get something out of it. Your idea of fun may be diferent, but it isn't better than theirs.
If you dont have the time to devote to a MMO then you dont need to play one. Go play skyrim or something.
Uh, the majority of MMOs created in the past decade all called and would like to have a word with you....
tell them i dont have time to talk.... im waiting for a REAL MMO to call.
If your suggestion is followed, you'll never get the call. Fact it, there is not enough hardcore gamers for any company to cater too and still make a decent enough profit to make and run the game. It is the casuals that actually keep games afloat and hence the reason that games cater to them more.
Id bet there are more of us then you realize. Its the reason games like EVE and EQ are still goin. were out there.... and were just biding our time
And both Eve and EQ have taken some pretty hard bumps lately, but you are right, we will see. Maybe in a year or five a good (by your definition) game will come out that can really take off. I'm not holding my breath, but you are welcome too.
not holding my breath. if it comes it comes. if it doesent, oh well. but there needs to be a change.
Reading some of these arrogant, ignorant, and some just down right rude posts made me think of the next reality show smash hit (Because those are just as big as the garabge MMO's of today).
Have a video camera rolling on a known forum troll doing their daily "safe behind a computer screen" chest thumping, then have the person (Or people) they are arguing with show up at their house, or the library, or wherever they are posting from and see how their demeanor changes.
Reading some of these arrogant, ignorant, and some just down right rude posts made me think of the next reality show smash hit (Because those are just as big as the garabge MMO's of today).
Have a video camera rolling on a known forum troll doing their daily "safe behind a computer screen" chest thumping, then have the person (Or people) they are arguing with show up at their house, or the library, or wherever they are posting from and see how their demeanor changes.
I'm making a list of just downright stupid and ignorant posts. Need to make a sticky thread with a giant list of "sentences to avoid". With all-time favorites like "such and such a company will never make a good game, they only care about profits".
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Vast majority of players treat MMOs as games, not virtual worlds, but it's not because they're spoiled brats. Quite the opposite - most players are adults with full-time jobs and commitments, and they can't afford to waste their entertainment time spending hours working or running in game. This "instant gratification" is reasonable expectation of players who can devote only so much time to gaming, and want to get something out of it. Your idea of fun may be diferent, but it isn't better than theirs.
If you dont have the time to devote to a MMO then you dont need to play one. Go play skyrim or something.
Or someone can make a game that is both accessible and MMO, and I'll gladly throw my money at them.
There's no rule that says that if something is MMO, it can't be accessible. If there's someone who can and wants to deliver both, it's only beneficial to market variety.
its been tried and failed. you cant make everyone happy in one game. they need to be seperate. theres room for all types of games. but the problem is theres ONLY ONE TYPE BEING MADE ATM!
There's room for all types of games - I agree. And all types of games are being made, just not in equal proportions/budgets. If there are not enough games to your liking in production, it's not because of some great injustice, it's because there are relatively few people like you willing to back them up.
Not all people with limited time want instant everything. So don't say that people with limited time want this watered down, instant crap. I would be lucky to play a longer game more casually. I won't have to jump games every other month like everyone else haha.
^this. like i had said befor. i sometimes only play for 10 hours a week. maybe 15. im looking for a game to spend years playing not a mouth. i dont give a shit if it takes me 3 mouths to max lvl as long as im having a good time. but these "people" feel there time is better spent if they can max lvl in 7 days then head stright to instance PVP or PVE. WOWs influance. say what you want, you know it to be true.
There's room for all types of games - I agree. And all types of games are being made, just not in equal proportions/budgets. If there are not enough games to your liking in production, it's not because of some great injustice, it's because there are relatively few people like you willing to back them up.
^ this
Gotta show your support for games similar to what you want and not just QQ about the lack of AAA high-polished games similar to what you want. Money talks.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Vast majority of players treat MMOs as games, not virtual worlds, but it's not because they're spoiled brats. Quite the opposite - most players are adults with full-time jobs and commitments, and they can't afford to waste their entertainment time spending hours working or running in game. This "instant gratification" is reasonable expectation of players who can devote only so much time to gaming, and want to get something out of it. Your idea of fun may be diferent, but it isn't better than theirs.
If you dont have the time to devote to a MMO then you dont need to play one. Go play skyrim or something.
Or someone can make a game that is both accessible and MMO, and I'll gladly throw my money at them.
There's no rule that says that if something is MMO, it can't be accessible. If there's someone who can and wants to deliver both, it's only beneficial to market variety.
its been tried and failed. you cant make everyone happy in one game. they need to be seperate. theres room for all types of games. but the problem is theres ONLY ONE TYPE BEING MADE ATM!
There's room for all types of games - I agree. And all types of games are being made, just not in equal proportions/budgets. If there are not enough games to your liking in production, it's not because of some great injustice, it's because there are relatively few people like you willing to back them up.
Its only goin to take one game to come out that grabs the attention of the "investor" and once a buissness model for sandbox or sandpark or whatever becomes then standered, then thats when you see the genre change. untill then, all the huge stacks of money go to the games that look and play just like wow.
There's room for all types of games - I agree. And all types of games are being made, just not in equal proportions/budgets. If there are not enough games to your liking in production, it's not because of some great injustice, it's because there are relatively few people like you willing to back them up.
^ this
Gotta show your support for games similar to what you want and not just QQ about the lack of AAA high-polished games similar to what you want. Money talks.
so i should play shitty ass SB games that have no dev backing/support to get the ball rolling? ill do that only if you pay for my sub.
Reading some of these arrogant, ignorant, and some just down right rude posts made me think of the next reality show smash hit (Because those are just as big as the garabge MMO's of today).
Have a video camera rolling on a known forum troll doing their daily "safe behind a computer screen" chest thumping, then have the person (Or people) they are arguing with show up at their house, or the library, or wherever they are posting from and see how their demeanor changes.
I'm making a list of just downright stupid and ignorant posts. Need to make a sticky thread with a giant list of "sentences to avoid". With all-time favorites like "such and such a company will never make a good game, they only care about profits".
ROFL your kidding right. you yourself just said "Money Talks" So your goin to have to add yourself to that list of yours.
Reading some of these arrogant, ignorant, and some just down right rude posts made me think of the next reality show smash hit (Because those are just as big as the garabge MMO's of today).
Have a video camera rolling on a known forum troll doing their daily "safe behind a computer screen" chest thumping, then have the person (Or people) they are arguing with show up at their house, or the library, or wherever they are posting from and see how their demeanor changes.
^^^ Is this truly our first e-MMORPG's gangster?
I'm not saying I want to go to soemone's house. Just an idea. And based on the countless stupid t.v. shows that already exist and miraculously continue to stay on the air..meaning people are watching...why couldn't this one work. Would be funny and entertaining to me anyways.
Safe to say the majority of e-thugs would wet their superman underoos if put face to face with someone in confrontation.
Vast majority of players treat MMOs as games, not virtual worlds, but it's not because they're spoiled brats. Quite the opposite - most players are adults with full-time jobs and commitments, and they can't afford to waste their entertainment time spending hours working or running in game. This "instant gratification" is reasonable expectation of players who can devote only so much time to gaming, and want to get something out of it. Your idea of fun may be diferent, but it isn't better than theirs.
If you dont have the time to devote to a MMO then you dont need to play one. Go play skyrim or something.
Or someone can make a game that is both accessible and MMO, and I'll gladly throw my money at them.
There's no rule that says that if something is MMO, it can't be accessible. If there's someone who can and wants to deliver both, it's only beneficial to market variety.
its been tried and failed. you cant make everyone happy in one game. they need to be seperate. theres room for all types of games. but the problem is theres ONLY ONE TYPE BEING MADE ATM!
There's room for all types of games - I agree. And all types of games are being made, just not in equal proportions/budgets. If there are not enough games to your liking in production, it's not because of some great injustice, it's because there are relatively few people like you willing to back them up.
Its only goin to take one game to come out that grabs the attention of the "investor" and once a buissness model for sandbox or sandpark or whatever becomes then standered, then thats when you see the genre change. untill then, all the huge stacks of money go to the games that look and play just like wow.
It's going to have to be a helluva a game at that fact, too. With so much social negativity and plotical correctness in this world about sitting at the computer for crazy amount of hours to receive digital accomplishments, for an investor to take on that label at the expense of an extremely small playerbase would be simply incredible, if not down right crazy.
There's room for all types of games - I agree. And all types of games are being made, just not in equal proportions/budgets. If there are not enough games to your liking in production, it's not because of some great injustice, it's because there are relatively few people like you willing to back them up.
^ this
Gotta show your support for games similar to what you want and not just QQ about the lack of AAA high-polished games similar to what you want. Money talks.
so i should play shitty ass SB games that have no dev backing/support to get the ball rolling? ill do that only if you pay for my sub.
You can go buy every SWTOR, AoC, Warhammer, WoW Expansion that comes out under the sun dropping what? $60 every 4 months for a brand new game that just disappoints you, or pay $15 a month for a game that has the potential to be what you want... anyone else seeing the math here...
I'm just saying if you want something else, then don't buy anything thats on the market. Most of what I see is people buying whatever is the FOTM $60 game and then quitting after the free trial and complaining that all the games that come out are all the same. The market is wising up and trying to re-coop all costs with initial game sales since subs are unpredictable.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
There's room for all types of games - I agree. And all types of games are being made, just not in equal proportions/budgets. If there are not enough games to your liking in production, it's not because of some great injustice, it's because there are relatively few people like you willing to back them up.
^ this
Gotta show your support for games similar to what you want and not just QQ about the lack of AAA high-polished games similar to what you want. Money talks.
so i should play shitty ass SB games that have no dev backing/support to get the ball rolling? ill do that only if you pay for my sub.
You can go buy every SWTOR, AoC, Warhammer, WoW Expansion that comes out under the sun dropping what? $60 every 4 months for a brand new game that just disappoints you, or pay $15 a month for a game that has the potential to be what you want... anyone else seeing the math here...
I'm just saying if you want something else, then don't buy anything thats on the market. Most of what I see is people buying whatever is the FOTM $60 game and then quitting after the free trial and complaining that all the games that come out are all the same. The market is wising up and trying to re-coop all costs with initial game sales since subs are unpredictable.
what makes you think that i am? did i buy wow? sure back befor BC came out. i played the beta for it and saw the direction it was heading and stopped paying. after that came VG. the love of my life. to bad it was over befor it even began. then WAR cam along. i thought to my self oh no. not again. the MMos today are glorified console RPGs with some lite social aspect. thats it. some action rpg with a lobby.
Vast majority of players treat MMOs as games, not virtual worlds, but it's not because they're spoiled brats. Quite the opposite - most players are adults with full-time jobs and commitments, and they can't afford to waste their entertainment time spending hours working or running in game. This "instant gratification" is reasonable expectation of players who can devote only so much time to gaming, and want to get something out of it. Your idea of fun may be diferent, but it isn't better than theirs.
If you dont have the time to devote to a MMO then you dont need to play one. Go play skyrim or something.
Or someone can make a game that is both accessible and MMO, and I'll gladly throw my money at them.
There's no rule that says that if something is MMO, it can't be accessible. If there's someone who can and wants to deliver both, it's only beneficial to market variety.
its been tried and failed. you cant make everyone happy in one game. they need to be seperate. theres room for all types of games. but the problem is theres ONLY ONE TYPE BEING MADE ATM!
There's room for all types of games - I agree. And all types of games are being made, just not in equal proportions/budgets. If there are not enough games to your liking in production, it's not because of some great injustice, it's because there are relatively few people like you willing to back them up.
Its only goin to take one game to come out that grabs the attention of the "investor" and once a buissness model for sandbox or sandpark or whatever becomes then standered, then thats when you see the genre change. untill then, all the huge stacks of money go to the games that look and play just like wow.
It's going to have to be a helluva a game at that fact, too. With so much social negativity and plotical correctness in this world about sitting at the computer for crazy amount of hours to receive digital accomplishments, for an investor to take on that label at the expense of an extremely small playerbase would be simply incredible, if not down right crazy.
It's definately possible though.
and how does this not pertain to ANY MMO? i cant belive you got political in this thread. btw, the same could be said for the guy that works 70 hours that sits infront of his/her pc. doesent just pretain to gamers.
Vast majority of players treat MMOs as games, not virtual worlds, but it's not because they're spoiled brats. Quite the opposite - most players are adults with full-time jobs and commitments, and they can't afford to waste their entertainment time spending hours working or running in game. This "instant gratification" is reasonable expectation of players who can devote only so much time to gaming, and want to get something out of it. Your idea of fun may be diferent, but it isn't better than theirs.
If you dont have the time to devote to a MMO then you dont need to play one. Go play skyrim or something.
Or someone can make a game that is both accessible and MMO, and I'll gladly throw my money at them.
There's no rule that says that if something is MMO, it can't be accessible. If there's someone who can and wants to deliver both, it's only beneficial to market variety.
its been tried and failed. you cant make everyone happy in one game. they need to be seperate. theres room for all types of games. but the problem is theres ONLY ONE TYPE BEING MADE ATM!
There's room for all types of games - I agree. And all types of games are being made, just not in equal proportions/budgets. If there are not enough games to your liking in production, it's not because of some great injustice, it's because there are relatively few people like you willing to back them up.
Its only goin to take one game to come out that grabs the attention of the "investor" and once a buissness model for sandbox or sandpark or whatever becomes then standered, then thats when you see the genre change. untill then, all the huge stacks of money go to the games that look and play just like wow.
It's going to have to be a helluva a game at that fact, too. With so much social negativity and plotical correctness in this world about sitting at the computer for crazy amount of hours to receive digital accomplishments, for an investor to take on that label at the expense of an extremely small playerbase would be simply incredible, if not down right crazy.
It's definately possible though.
and how does this not pertain to ANY MMO? i cant belive you got political in this thread. btw, the same could be said for the guy that works 70 hours that sits infront of his/her pc. doesent just pretain to gamers.
His 70 hours is putting food on the table and clothes on his back. Your 70 hours is getting fish feast to buff you up and shiny purple digital cloaks. Maybe a tad difference...
I wasn't try to get political, I'm just saying that along with profit, public opinion is important to some. MMORPG' s already have a bad sterotype as it is. Making your game to blow it wide open and beyond doesn't really help.
Current MMO's encourage shorter play times with limited dailies, rested XP, and quick travel. Get in-get out. It's just the truth. While you can do if you want, you don't have to put 70 hours in to make the game work.
His 70 hours is putting food on the table and clothes on his back ( dont forget about the aclohol in his bladder ). Your 70 hours is getting fish feast to buff you up and shiny purple digital cloaks. Maybe a tad difference...
I wasn't try to get political, I'm just saying that along with profit, public opinion is important to some. MMORPG' s already have a bad sterotype as it is. Making your game to blow it wide open and beyond doesn't really help.
Current MMO's encourage shorter play times with limited dailies, rested XP, and quick travel. Get in-get out. It's just the truth. While you can do if you want, you don't have to put 70 hours in to make the game work.
*i added something to your post*
so your saying there making casual MMOs and NOT sandpark MMOs because its not politicly correct?
Vast majority of players treat MMOs as games, not virtual worlds, but it's not because they're spoiled brats. Quite the opposite - most players are adults with full-time jobs and commitments, and they can't afford to waste their entertainment time spending hours working or running in game. This "instant gratification" is reasonable expectation of players who can devote only so much time to gaming, and want to get something out of it. Your idea of fun may be diferent, but it isn't better than theirs.
I thought regular non-MMO games were for instant gratification.
You are right...they are. But the self-entitlement, selfish masses want all games to cater to them until there is only one genre left apparently. That being instant gratification gimme shinies now and make me feel like an instant hero and badass types. The rat race has enxtended well beyond RL and into the virtual world as well. Gimme gimme gimme now now now.
Funny part is...that in most cases the same people that want such gameplay are also the ones that sit in city hubs complaining that they have nothing to do and they need more content to blow through in a week.
Where do you live where everybody is as you describe? Are you the only person who isn't this way? If so, what event causes you to be free of the bonds the rest of us are shackled to? Maybe you should teach us so that we can be free? I am curious because we know generalizations are always correct -- especially on such a massive scale...
Yes, Diablo doesn't cover the market. But it was a much better starting point for what WoW has turned into over the years than EQ. If WoW had just started with the Diablo model and added select mmo features instead of starting with an MMO and adding select Diablo features followed by constantly adding more and more Diablo style features over time, they not only could have saved oodles of money and changes in the game sucking up Dev time, but they wouldn't have also hijacked MMOs. Guildwars did this perfectly. They made the game that people actually wanted and larger "MMOs" are continuously becoming more like GW every update. The only thing is that GW didn't have the Blizzard machine and more marketing money than Jesus like WoW did. Imagine how much more casual friendly the market would be if Blizzard had made a more GW style game or GW had had the right marketing and how much better the actual MMO genre would be for people who actually wanted to play MMOs?
That's why I really hate Blizzard. Not because WoW is bad but because they made the wrong decision and killed my genre. It would have been better if WoW was terrible, then it would have been a non issue.
Hindsight, of course, is 20-20. If Blizz knows that co-op RPG is the way to go, they probably would have done what you have suggested.
In fact, Diablo 3 is EXACTLY what you have suggested. Using Diablo 2 as a starting point, and add WOW ideas (AH, PvE balance ...). That is WHY I think Diablo 3 will be the game to play.
And what you call "killing your genre" is more accurately "transforming and growing the MMO genre". The characterization of "killing" is certainly NOT how the word is used when WOW grew the genre from hundred of thousands to millions.
Going down a road that YOU don't like is NOT "killing". Plus, i am sure it is incidental and Blizz is not out to get you.
His 70 hours is putting food on the table and clothes on his back ( dont forget about the aclohol in his bladder ). Your 70 hours is getting fish feast to buff you up and shiny purple digital cloaks. Maybe a tad difference...
I wasn't try to get political, I'm just saying that along with profit, public opinion is important to some. MMORPG' s already have a bad sterotype as it is. Making your game to blow it wide open and beyond doesn't really help.
Current MMO's encourage shorter play times with limited dailies, rested XP, and quick travel. Get in-get out. It's just the truth. While you can do if you want, you don't have to put 70 hours in to make the game work.
*i added something to your post*
so your saying there making casual MMOs and NOT sandpark MMOs because its not politicly correct?
Per your add to my post, I don't know anyone personally who added 30 hours of work to their schedule to feed their alcohol habits. I can speak for myself, though. My extra 30-40 hours were asked requested because projects had to be done to keep the business afloat and I needed the money to support my family. Oh yeah...I don't drink...
As for your latter, *sigh* sure, buddy...that's exactly what I said...that is the sole reason...
And so on and so forth. Then after all that, people will bring bad a prior mechanic from the past, call it retro, cash in and a bunch of people will call it unique and original, because they're too young to know any better.
Circle of life, moving on.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Hindsight, of course, is 20-20. If Blizz knows that co-op RPG is the way to go, they probably would have done what you have suggested.
In fact, Diablo 3 is EXACTLY what you have suggested. Using Diablo 2 as a starting point, and add WOW ideas (AH, PvE balance ...). That is WHY I think Diablo 3 will be the game to play.
And what you call "killing your genre" is more accurately "transforming and growing the MMO genre". The characterization of "killing" is certainly NOT how the word is used when WOW grew the genre from hundred of thousands to millions.
Going down a road that YOU don't like is NOT "killing". Plus, i am sure it is incidental and Blizz is not out to get you.
I wonder if you would feel the same way if the situation were different. would you see grouth insted of death? its very easy to look on the bright side of life when your on the sunny side of the street. would you be honest? i doubt it. i think you would be just as bitter as the rest of us.
His 70 hours is putting food on the table and clothes on his back ( dont forget about the aclohol in his bladder ). Your 70 hours is getting fish feast to buff you up and shiny purple digital cloaks. Maybe a tad difference...
I wasn't try to get political, I'm just saying that along with profit, public opinion is important to some. MMORPG' s already have a bad sterotype as it is. Making your game to blow it wide open and beyond doesn't really help.
Current MMO's encourage shorter play times with limited dailies, rested XP, and quick travel. Get in-get out. It's just the truth. While you can do if you want, you don't have to put 70 hours in to make the game work.
*i added something to your post*
so your saying there making casual MMOs and NOT sandpark MMOs because its not politicly correct?
Per your add to my post, I don't know anyone personally who added 30 hours of work to their schedule to feed their alcohol habits. I can speak for myself, though. My extra 30-40 hours were asked requested because projects had to be done to keep the business afloat and I needed the money to support my family. Oh yeah...I don't drink...
You know why i added the acohol comment right? statistis of alcohal abusse is rampid with those that work very long hours. that was my point to the 70 hour work week.
As for your latter, *sigh* sure, buddy...that's exactly what I said...that is the sole reason...
Comments
Many people want open worlds, but only to go "Oh! That is cool." and then walk away. Things just aren't as impressive when you've seen it for the 100th time. That is why sandbox games like Minecraft are cool, because you can visit the same place again and things may have changed. There is a lot more exploration when you've got players building content to see. Themepark MMOs just don't work like that at the moment. The world doesn't change much when people are away. People just want to ride the rides if there is nothing new to look at.
GW2 might have a changing world, but I'm not sure how effective it will be to getting players to re-visit a place.
Anyways, about World PvP in WoW. Before I left sometime in 4.3 to play SWTOR with my friends, my friends made a successful World PvP guild on our server that I participated in. It was successful because we had fun. We atleast PvPed one day of each week at the gates of Orgrimmar. I think some people might argue that it would be more fun to PvP around the rest of the world, but when you've got a group of 10 or more people that isn't the case. Having all the Horde in Orgrimmar actually made the PvP more fun, because then the players were focused into one big mass. PvPing around the rest of the world was only really fun for solo PvP. It used to be fun fighting around summoning stones in groups, but you had to wait for a raid to come by before you could have fun. Inside an enemy city you don't have to wait. People will jump off of their flying mounts just to try to overwhelm you. The point I'm trying to get at is what makes world PvP fun isn't really about the size of world as much as it is having two groups of players slaughtering eachother with no clear objective. Orgrimmar could have been an instanced zone and we probably would have been happy with the PvP.
Yes, Diablo doesn't cover the market. But it was a much better starting point for what WoW has turned into over the years than EQ. If WoW had just started with the Diablo model and added select mmo features instead of starting with an MMO and adding select Diablo features followed by constantly adding more and more Diablo style features over time, they not only could have saved oodles of money and changes in the game sucking up Dev time, but they wouldn't have also hijacked MMOs. Guildwars did this perfectly. They made the game that people actually wanted and larger "MMOs" are continuously becoming more like GW every update. The only thing is that GW didn't have the Blizzard machine and more marketing money than Jesus like WoW did. Imagine how much more casual friendly the market would be if Blizzard had made a more GW style game or GW had had the right marketing and how much better the actual MMO genre would be for people who actually wanted to play MMOs?
That's why I really hate Blizzard. Not because WoW is bad but because they made the wrong decision and killed my genre. It would have been better if WoW was terrible, then it would have been a non issue.
Reading some of these arrogant, ignorant, and some just down right rude posts made me think of the next reality show smash hit (Because those are just as big as the garabge MMO's of today).
Have a video camera rolling on a known forum troll doing their daily "safe behind a computer screen" chest thumping, then have the person (Or people) they are arguing with show up at their house, or the library, or wherever they are posting from and see how their demeanor changes.
not holding my breath. if it comes it comes. if it doesent, oh well. but there needs to be a change.
^^^ Is this truly our first e-MMORPG's gangster?
I'm making a list of just downright stupid and ignorant posts. Need to make a sticky thread with a giant list of "sentences to avoid". With all-time favorites like "such and such a company will never make a good game, they only care about profits".
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
There's room for all types of games - I agree. And all types of games are being made, just not in equal proportions/budgets. If there are not enough games to your liking in production, it's not because of some great injustice, it's because there are relatively few people like you willing to back them up.
^this. like i had said befor. i sometimes only play for 10 hours a week. maybe 15. im looking for a game to spend years playing not a mouth. i dont give a shit if it takes me 3 mouths to max lvl as long as im having a good time. but these "people" feel there time is better spent if they can max lvl in 7 days then head stright to instance PVP or PVE. WOWs influance. say what you want, you know it to be true.
^ this
Gotta show your support for games similar to what you want and not just QQ about the lack of AAA high-polished games similar to what you want. Money talks.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Its only goin to take one game to come out that grabs the attention of the "investor" and once a buissness model for sandbox or sandpark or whatever becomes then standered, then thats when you see the genre change. untill then, all the huge stacks of money go to the games that look and play just like wow.
so i should play shitty ass SB games that have no dev backing/support to get the ball rolling? ill do that only if you pay for my sub.
ROFL your kidding right. you yourself just said "Money Talks" So your goin to have to add yourself to that list of yours.
I'm not saying I want to go to soemone's house. Just an idea. And based on the countless stupid t.v. shows that already exist and miraculously continue to stay on the air..meaning people are watching...why couldn't this one work. Would be funny and entertaining to me anyways.
Safe to say the majority of e-thugs would wet their superman underoos if put face to face with someone in confrontation.
It's going to have to be a helluva a game at that fact, too. With so much social negativity and plotical correctness in this world about sitting at the computer for crazy amount of hours to receive digital accomplishments, for an investor to take on that label at the expense of an extremely small playerbase would be simply incredible, if not down right crazy.
It's definately possible though.
You can go buy every SWTOR, AoC, Warhammer, WoW Expansion that comes out under the sun dropping what? $60 every 4 months for a brand new game that just disappoints you, or pay $15 a month for a game that has the potential to be what you want... anyone else seeing the math here...
I'm just saying if you want something else, then don't buy anything thats on the market. Most of what I see is people buying whatever is the FOTM $60 game and then quitting after the free trial and complaining that all the games that come out are all the same. The market is wising up and trying to re-coop all costs with initial game sales since subs are unpredictable.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
what makes you think that i am? did i buy wow? sure back befor BC came out. i played the beta for it and saw the direction it was heading and stopped paying. after that came VG. the love of my life. to bad it was over befor it even began. then WAR cam along. i thought to my self oh no. not again. the MMos today are glorified console RPGs with some lite social aspect. thats it. some action rpg with a lobby.
and how does this not pertain to ANY MMO? i cant belive you got political in this thread. btw, the same could be said for the guy that works 70 hours that sits infront of his/her pc. doesent just pretain to gamers.
His 70 hours is putting food on the table and clothes on his back. Your 70 hours is getting fish feast to buff you up and shiny purple digital cloaks. Maybe a tad difference...
I wasn't try to get political, I'm just saying that along with profit, public opinion is important to some. MMORPG' s already have a bad sterotype as it is. Making your game to blow it wide open and beyond doesn't really help.
Current MMO's encourage shorter play times with limited dailies, rested XP, and quick travel. Get in-get out. It's just the truth. While you can do if you want, you don't have to put 70 hours in to make the game work.
*i added something to your post*
so your saying there making casual MMOs and NOT sandpark MMOs because its not politicly correct?
Where do you live where everybody is as you describe? Are you the only person who isn't this way? If so, what event causes you to be free of the bonds the rest of us are shackled to? Maybe you should teach us so that we can be free? I am curious because we know generalizations are always correct -- especially on such a massive scale...
Hindsight, of course, is 20-20. If Blizz knows that co-op RPG is the way to go, they probably would have done what you have suggested.
In fact, Diablo 3 is EXACTLY what you have suggested. Using Diablo 2 as a starting point, and add WOW ideas (AH, PvE balance ...). That is WHY I think Diablo 3 will be the game to play.
And what you call "killing your genre" is more accurately "transforming and growing the MMO genre". The characterization of "killing" is certainly NOT how the word is used when WOW grew the genre from hundred of thousands to millions.
Going down a road that YOU don't like is NOT "killing". Plus, i am sure it is incidental and Blizz is not out to get you.
Per your add to my post, I don't know anyone personally who added 30 hours of work to their schedule to feed their alcohol habits. I can speak for myself, though. My extra 30-40 hours were asked requested because projects had to be done to keep the business afloat and I needed the money to support my family. Oh yeah...I don't drink...
As for your latter, *sigh* sure, buddy...that's exactly what I said...that is the sole reason...
Dude: "Back in my day, we blah blah blah that!"
kid: "But that's old, this is better!"
*20 years later*
Dude: "Back in my day, we blah blah blah that!"
kid: "But that's old, this is better!"
*20 years later*
Dude: "Back in my day, we blah blah blah that!"
kid: "But that's old, this is better!"
And so on and so forth. Then after all that, people will bring bad a prior mechanic from the past, call it retro, cash in and a bunch of people will call it unique and original, because they're too young to know any better.
Circle of life, moving on.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I wonder if you would feel the same way if the situation were different. would you see grouth insted of death? its very easy to look on the bright side of life when your on the sunny side of the street. would you be honest? i doubt it. i think you would be just as bitter as the rest of us.