Yes, Diablo doesn't cover the market. But it was a much better starting point for what WoW has turned into over the years than EQ. If WoW had just started with the Diablo model and added select mmo features instead of starting with an MMO and adding select Diablo features followed by constantly adding more and more Diablo style features over time, they not only could have saved oodles of money and changes in the game sucking up Dev time, but they wouldn't have also hijacked MMOs. Guildwars did this perfectly. They made the game that people actually wanted and larger "MMOs" are continuously becoming more like GW every update. The only thing is that GW didn't have the Blizzard machine and more marketing money than Jesus like WoW did. Imagine how much more casual friendly the market would be if Blizzard had made a more GW style game or GW had had the right marketing and how much better the actual MMO genre would be for people who actually wanted to play MMOs?
That's why I really hate Blizzard. Not because WoW is bad but because they made the wrong decision and killed my genre. It would have been better if WoW was terrible, then it would have been a non issue.
Hindsight, of course, is 20-20. If Blizz knows that co-op RPG is the way to go, they probably would have done what you have suggested.
In fact, Diablo 3 is EXACTLY what you have suggested. Using Diablo 2 as a starting point, and add WOW ideas (AH, PvE balance ...). That is WHY I think Diablo 3 will be the game to play.
And what you call "killing your genre" is more accurately "transforming and growing the MMO genre". The characterization of "killing" is certainly NOT how the word is used when WOW grew the genre from hundred of thousands to millions.
Going down a road that YOU don't like is NOT "killing". Plus, i am sure it is incidental and Blizz is not out to get you.
Yes hindsight is 20/20. I know that Blizzard couldn't have known. But intention isn't magic.
You define growing the genre as increasing the player base. I define growing the genre as making MMOs become more MMO. Removing the majority of the features that defined MMOs at their conception to increase the playerbase is not the same as making people like MMOs. WoW CREATED A NEW GENRE. It killed MMOs. And the growing of the genre was all from marketing. If you had put the kind of marketing and money WoW had into a sandbox, and no, not EvE, it would have grown the genre. Maybe only 5 or 8 million instead of 10million, but at least it would have been MMOs that they were growing.
Hindsight, of course, is 20-20. If Blizz knows that co-op RPG is the way to go, they probably would have done what you have suggested.
In fact, Diablo 3 is EXACTLY what you have suggested. Using Diablo 2 as a starting point, and add WOW ideas (AH, PvE balance ...). That is WHY I think Diablo 3 will be the game to play.
And what you call "killing your genre" is more accurately "transforming and growing the MMO genre". The characterization of "killing" is certainly NOT how the word is used when WOW grew the genre from hundred of thousands to millions.
Going down a road that YOU don't like is NOT "killing". Plus, i am sure it is incidental and Blizz is not out to get you.
I wonder if you would feel the same way if the situation were different. would you see grouth insted of death? its very easy to look on the bright side of life when your on the sunny side of the street. would you be honest? i doubt it. i think you would be just as bitter as the rest of us.
Of course no one will know for sure since I am NOT on the dark side of the street.
However, I suspect I will just find something ELSE to do. It is not like MMO is the ONLY available entertainment option to me. I can play other type of video games. I can watch tv/anmime/movies. I can read novels. I don't get attached to a single thing .. particularly when it is just a game.
I do remember when Isaac Asimov, my favorite sci-fi author, died, i did not bitch & moan (at least not for long) about how "unfair" that he has the audacity to DIE and deprive me of my entertainment. I just move on to other stuff. I think it is a bit too much to be bitter over some past time.
Hindsight, of course, is 20-20. If Blizz knows that co-op RPG is the way to go, they probably would have done what you have suggested.
In fact, Diablo 3 is EXACTLY what you have suggested. Using Diablo 2 as a starting point, and add WOW ideas (AH, PvE balance ...). That is WHY I think Diablo 3 will be the game to play.
And what you call "killing your genre" is more accurately "transforming and growing the MMO genre". The characterization of "killing" is certainly NOT how the word is used when WOW grew the genre from hundred of thousands to millions.
Going down a road that YOU don't like is NOT "killing". Plus, i am sure it is incidental and Blizz is not out to get you.
I wonder if you would feel the same way if the situation were different. would you see grouth insted of death? its very easy to look on the bright side of life when your on the sunny side of the street. would you be honest? i doubt it. i think you would be just as bitter as the rest of us.
Of course no one will know for sure since I am NOT on the dark side of the street.
However, I suspect I will just find something ELSE to do. It is not like MMO is the ONLY available entertainment option to me. I can play other type of video games. I can watch tv/anmime/movies. I can read novels. I don't get attached to a single thing .. particularly when it is just a game.
I do remember when Isaac Asimov, my favorite sci-fi author, died, i did not bitch & moan (at least not for long) about how "unfair" that he has the audacity to DIE and deprive me of my entertainment. I just move on to other stuff. I think it is a bit too much to be bitter over some past time.
Books are not a valid comparison. There was far more diversity of style and genre and far higher availability in books than in MMOs. You can't have the kind of great game but too low budget like you have in indie sandboxes in books.
I really dislike how you and Axehilt pick poor analogies for your arguments. I dealt with problems in books, like Martin taking so long and RJ dying by finding other books that I enjoyed. But that isn't possible in games.
Yes hindsight is 20/20. I know that Blizzard couldn't have known. But intention isn't magic.
You define growing the genre as increasing the player base. I define growing the genre as making MMOs become more MMO. Removing the majority of the features that defined MMOs at their conception to increase the playerbase is not the same as making people like MMOs. WoW CREATED A NEW GENRE. It killed MMOs. And the growing of the genre was all from marketing. If you had put the kind of marketing and money WoW had into a sandbox, and no, not EvE, it would have grown the genre. Maybe only 5 or 8 million instead of 10million, but at least it would have been MMOs that they were growing.
Your definition is not a) normal usage of the word "growth", and b) vague because no one has authority to say what "more MMO" means. Who said "sandbox" should inherit the label MMO?
Just like Diablo take over the "action RPG" label, i don't see why the WOW-kind of games cannot become the new norm (actually it does) of MMOs. It is just semantics.
What you mean is that they don't make games that YOU LIKE.
And i highly doubt if even Blizz can make Eve popular. Just look at the pressure from their player base. Do you think they put in LFD and LFR just because they feel they want to push the genre this way? Those are POPULAR features. Those are what people WANT.
I really don't see how you can redefine the common use of the term MMOs and says WOW should not be using that label. Obviously you can't even convince people HERE, and you have no chance with the larger industry/market.
Books are not a valid comparison. There was far more diversity of style and genre and far higher availability in books than in MMOs. You can't have the kind of great game but too low budget like you have in indie sandboxes in books.
I really dislike how you and Axehilt pick poor analogies for your arguments. I dealt with problems in books, like Martin taking so long and RJ dying by finding other books that I enjoyed. But that isn't possible in games.
You are kidding me right? You know how MANY video games are out there?
I can pick up good games to play ALL DAY. The problem is that I do NOT have enough time. That is why i never bother to play games I even dislike a little.
If you don't like games at all, that is your issue. There are plenty out there. It is like saying you don't like the whole detective genre. Fine. Find some other genre to read.
Once again, there is no reason to play MMO if you don't like. There are PLENTY of other entertainment options. BTW, this is NOT an analogy. Dont play MMO, pick up a book. Both can entertain.
1. But the statistical slate for a people who game 70 hours a week is clean, right? I bet you that I can justify working that many hours a week vs. gaming that long to miles more groups of people than you could the opposite.
2. No you aren't. You are picking through my words like an Afro comb.
Hindsight, of course, is 20-20. If Blizz knows that co-op RPG is the way to go, they probably would have done what you have suggested.
In fact, Diablo 3 is EXACTLY what you have suggested. Using Diablo 2 as a starting point, and add WOW ideas (AH, PvE balance ...). That is WHY I think Diablo 3 will be the game to play.
And what you call "killing your genre" is more accurately "transforming and growing the MMO genre". The characterization of "killing" is certainly NOT how the word is used when WOW grew the genre from hundred of thousands to millions.
Going down a road that YOU don't like is NOT "killing". Plus, i am sure it is incidental and Blizz is not out to get you.
I wonder if you would feel the same way if the situation were different. would you see grouth insted of death? its very easy to look on the bright side of life when your on the sunny side of the street. would you be honest? i doubt it. i think you would be just as bitter as the rest of us.
Of course no one will know for sure since I am NOT on the dark side of the street.
However, I suspect I will just find something ELSE to do. It is not like MMO is the ONLY available entertainment option to me. I can play other type of video games. I can watch tv/anmime/movies. I can read novels. I don't get attached to a single thing .. particularly when it is just a game.
I do remember when Isaac Asimov, my favorite sci-fi author, died, i did not bitch & moan (at least not for long) about how "unfair" that he has the audacity to DIE and deprive me of my entertainment. I just move on to other stuff. I think it is a bit too much to be bitter over some past time.
and this is the action iv have chosesen for myself. there isent anything out worth playing atm. like i stated before... just biding my time.
Books are not a valid comparison. There was far more diversity of style and genre and far higher availability in books than in MMOs. You can't have the kind of great game but too low budget like you have in indie sandboxes in books.
I really dislike how you and Axehilt pick poor analogies for your arguments. I dealt with problems in books, like Martin taking so long and RJ dying by finding other books that I enjoyed. But that isn't possible in games.
You are kidding me right? You know how MANY video games are out there?
I can pick up good games to play ALL DAY. The problem is that I do NOT have enough time. That is why i never bother to play games I even dislike a little.
If you don't like games at all, that is your issue. There are plenty out there. It is like saying you don't like the whole detective genre. Fine. Find some other genre to read.
Once again, there is no reason to play MMO if you don't like. There are PLENTY of other entertainment options. BTW, this is NOT an analogy. Dont play MMO, pick up a book. Both can entertain.
No. You keep missing the point. Constantly. You are smart. I can tell. Stop fucking it up.
I can find other games to play. I played TAO and ATITD. I played WF. I bought 1000$ of games from Impulse that I played for thousands of hours.
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
Im goign to go wayyyy out on a limb here and guess you are in the very SMALL minority on your lifestyle. thanks for the laugh tho.
No. You keep missing the point. Constantly. You are smart. I can tell. Stop fucking it up.
I can find other games to play. I played TAO and ATITD. I played WF. I bought 1000$ of games from Impulse that I played for thousands of hours.
But I can't find another MMOMMOMMO TO PLAY.
So? Why are you SO bitter about just a genre of games? I can't find a good US lock-room mystery novel either (if you go into THAT hobby, the genre died out in the US DECADES ago).
You don't see my demanding writers to go back and write novels in that genre (like those by John Dickson Carr).
You seem to be all set in your leisure time. Why even bother in a hobby with products you don't like?
I quited WOW for a few months before they introduced LFR. I stopped coming to this site. I really don't get this mentality of tryinng to DEMAND the market to do what you want. You know, as much as I do, that it is a lost course ANYWAY.
Yes hindsight is 20/20. I know that Blizzard couldn't have known. But intention isn't magic.
You define growing the genre as increasing the player base. I define growing the genre as making MMOs become more MMO. Removing the majority of the features that defined MMOs at their conception to increase the playerbase is not the same as making people like MMOs. WoW CREATED A NEW GENRE. It killed MMOs. And the growing of the genre was all from marketing. If you had put the kind of marketing and money WoW had into a sandbox, and no, not EvE, it would have grown the genre. Maybe only 5 or 8 million instead of 10million, but at least it would have been MMOs that they were growing.
Your definition is not a) normal usage of the word "growth", and b) vague because no one has authority to say what "more MMO" means. Who said "sandbox" should inherit the label MMO?
Just like Diablo take over the "action RPG" label, i don't see why the WOW-kind of games cannot become the new norm (actually it does) of MMOs. It is just semantics.
What you mean is that they don't make games that YOU LIKE.
And i highly doubt if even Blizz can make Eve popular. Just look at the pressure from their player base. Do you think they put in LFD and LFR just because they feel they want to push the genre this way? Those are POPULAR features. Those are what people WANT.
I really don't see how you can redefine the common use of the term MMOs and says WOW should not be using that label. Obviously you can't even convince people HERE, and you have no chance with the larger industry/market.
Yes it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its the exact perfect definition of growth. You always look at everything in such a fucking titled way.
GROWING TOMATOES IS NOT GROWING POTATOES.
GROWING LOBBY BASED COOP WITH PERSISTANT AREAS IS NOT GROWING MMOS.
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME GENRE.
I FUCKING LIKE WOW AND I LIKE DIABLO AND I LIKE LOL. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT COMPANIES ARE MAKING MMOS.
And as for redefining the term, clearly we can redefine the term if we have specific power. And we have a perfect example of how to do it BECAUSE THAT IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT WITH WOW. THEY CHANGED THE DEFINITION OF MMORPG IN THE MIND OF CASUALS.
If you teach little kids that green is red, they will think that green is red from that point on and will teach their kids that green is red. The next generation of kids will then grow up believing that green is red even though it isnt and older people won't be able to dissuade them. Just like people came into the genre thinking that WoW was the definitive jumping off point for what an MMO is like because it was the frist god damn game they played.
Green is still not red. You can argue that it is effectively red since only a few people who remain know the truth. That doesn't mean that the people who think green is green are wrong and the people who think green is red are right.
Even if we agree that vanilla WoW began as more mmorpg than lobby game that doesn't mean that for the rest of eternity WoW is still an MMO. I am not conceeding that vanilla WoW was a true MMO in the sense that UO or muds or even EQ were, but it doesn't matter anyway because WoW is clearly not an MMO NOW.
Except in the minds of people who hated old MMOs or had WoW as their first MMO.
Anyways, its clear that I can't deal emotionally with this argument, especially not when you keep coming up with this fucking weird conclusions like me hating WoW or using shit analogies like the book ones. So I will stop.
I am actually prepared for a temp ban for this post, because based on bans in the past this may violate the forum rules, but I don't care.
No. You keep missing the point. Constantly. You are smart. I can tell. Stop fucking it up.
I can find other games to play. I played TAO and ATITD. I played WF. I bought 1000$ of games from Impulse that I played for thousands of hours.
But I can't find another MMOMMOMMO TO PLAY.
So? Why are you SO bitter about just a genre of games? I can't find a good US lock-room mystery novel either (if you go into THAT hobby, the genre died out in the US DECADES ago).
You don't see my demanding writers to go back and write novels in that genre (like those by John Dickson Carr).
You seem to be all set in your leisure time. Why even bother in a hobby with products you don't like?
I quited WOW for a few months before they introduced LFR. I stopped coming to this site. I really don't get this mentality of tryinng to DEMAND the market to do what you want. You know, as much as I do, that it is a lost course ANYWAY.
Although the emotional costs of posting on this site are immensely high, the time it takes me to post here is insignificant because my free time is obscenely high. I go to college and get all As and the occasional B even though I refuse to spend the "required" 2 hours of home time for each hour of class. I spend maybe 30 minutes TOPS. It takes me maybe an hour a day to post all the things I do here and only 50% of the time does it upset me so much.
Its only particular posters who really upset me. Quizzical for instance can disagree quite a lot with my opinions, but somehow it is not in any way as infuriating as dealing with you.
Although the emotional costs of posting on this site are immensely high, the time it takes me to post here is insignificant because my free time is obscenely high. I go to college and get all As and the occasional B even though I refuse to spend the "required" 2 hours of home time for each hour of class. I spend maybe 30 minutes TOPS. It takes me maybe an hour a day to post all the things I do here and only 50% of the time does it upset me so much.
Its only particular posters who really upset me. Quizzical for instance can disagree quite a lot with my opinions, but somehow it is not in any way as infuriating as dealing with you.
Which leads me to another interesting question. Why are you replying at all? Don't you think it is a bit silly to be so upset about what some other guy think about GAMES on the other side of the internet?
After playing swtor and watching some responses to toppics about the linear world, class quests who are more single player content, a world without much to explore, crafting which is actually done by your companion, questing with your transparent map open following the narrows paths and everything (even the treasure boxes) are marked on your map....
I come to the conclusion that the mmorpg genre is quiete devided in the meanwhile. There are actually people who appreciate solo content and apprecieate the "everything is delivered on a silver plate" mentality....
Ahaha the irony of some of the people on the forums. Whether its people clammoring for large-scale PvP then QQing when something like the SWTOR Valor-farm fests happen because its unfair. Or people who complain that society is doomed due to self-centered nature, and then want game developers to make a game catered to them... The irony is strong in him.
OP regardless of the legitimacy of your concerns about the industry and the "dumbing down" effect, you have to see the irony in your statements...
Calling out developers for listening to whiners on the forums and then turning around whining on the forums about the whiners because they aren't making the game you specifically want...
I concur completely... Had I been eating coco-pops whilst reading the OP I would have spat them all over the monitor. As I wasn't, I had to make do with a /facepalm.
"Hey devs, stop listening to whiners dudes... Listen to me, whining"
Easy to say when there are dozens of MMO's that cater to your taste..which, came about due to the excessive whining of the casual generation introduced to the genre mainly by WoW.
So now...you have tons of people who had played prior to that looking for even just one revert to the old style...that sadly will more than likely never happen because the casual crowd is larger and whines louder. Pretty damn selfish if you ask me that you get chastisized for wanting just one that caters to the old school style...regardless of how likely or unlikely that possibility is.
@ Cuathon: Don't waste your time. Some people here are completely lost as to why MMORPG's are a DIFFERENT GENRE from console games, etc. Others just like to be assholes and agrue with you for their own enjoyment. The latter is actually interesting if you think about it......because if the current batch of MMORPG's are so great....then WHY are these trolls wasting as much time on these forums as they do arguing with you? More than likely because the PvP is better than their games and more entertaining. Yet...they keep asking for more of the same fenced in grassy fields for them and the rest of the flock to graze in for a month or two before being herded to the next fenced in field.
Ahaha the irony of some of the people on the forums. Whether its people clammoring for large-scale PvP then QQing when something like the SWTOR Valor-farm fests happen because its unfair. Or people who complain that society is doomed due to self-centered nature, and then want game developers to make a game catered to them... The irony is strong in him.
OP regardless of the legitimacy of your concerns about the industry and the "dumbing down" effect, you have to see the irony in your statements...
Calling out developers for listening to whiners on the forums and then turning around whining on the forums about the whiners because they aren't making the game you specifically want...
I concur completely... Had I been eating coco-pops whilst reading the OP I would have spat them all over the monitor. As I wasn't, I had to make do with a /facepalm.
"Hey devs, stop listening to whiners dudes... Listen to me, whining"
Easy to say when there are dozens of MMO's that cater to your taste..which, came about due to the excessive whining of the casual generation introduced to the genre mainly by WoW.
So now...you have tons of people who had played prior to that looking for even just one revert to the old style...that sadly will more than likely never happen because the casual crowd is larger and whines louder. Pretty damn selfish if you ask me that you get chastisized for wanting just one that caters to the old school style...regardless of how likely or unlikely that possibility is.
We might as well give it up hommie. theres nothing you can say to them that will ever matter. we have our way of thinking and they have theres. i just hope that someone... anyone makes a AAA sandbox that gets dev support.
It is kindda funny, that not listening to players leads to the best games, but it seem to be proved true again and again.
People always seek simple solutions (black/white/good/evil), and therefore when the players gets influence on a game, it just gets simpler, easier, dumber and moving away from its original intent/design. Some think it is great that they now have influence over a game because of the influence itself, but fail to see the bigger picture. Others think they don't want simpler, but if they had the influence it would also lead to simplicity, just another route there.
But wait, my simplicity is good for the game and I thought it through ... sure maybe, but then reality kicks in, so when your great idea is adopted into a game, it was not quite how you imagined it. Thing is the developer will not take your precise suggesion understanding all your thoughts behind it, but rather combine the opinions and add theirs, and again end up with .. lowest common denominator.
The small crowd of real mmorpg lovers that used to sustain a few good games hasnt really grown much in numbers, but are now scattered over so many games, that it is no longer viable to make those special games. Even if a developer decided to make a game that has "it", they wouldn't succeed because the player base (customer base) will not flock to your game out of thousands.
So am I saying those millions of players who have kicked the mmo genre to the skies are not mmorpg lovers ? Uhm yes, that is exactly what I am saying, but not in a negative way, they just want something else - And they are getting exactly that. And that is the mmo game business today, like it or not.
I've said it for years, the community is the main thing that makes or breaks a game. In older MMOs, the community was very tight-knit. Today, everyone is in it for themselves, and couldn't care less for other players. In older MMOs, there were actually petitions (and sometimes didn't even need one) for Devs to even put in statues and memorials for players that passed away. In one of my old old timey MMOs the Devs even put in an entire town named after a player since he was the leader of one of the major guilds in the game. Now you'll never see anything of the like. Community on just about every game I've played (except Rift, FFXI, DAoC) should get a community score of 1-3 out of 10.
ToR fast travel complaints are completely warranted. WOW barely wasted players' time at all with non-gameplay (travel), so when ToR comes along and takes a step backwards, players are quick to point out how that makes things less fun.
Centralized social hubs like ToR's stations obviously work, and I'm not sure things would be better by diffusing this population over several major social hubs.
That said, the requirement to sit near the social hub to find a flashpoint group is completely ridiculous, because I'd much rather be out playing the game while finding a group than being forced to sit in non-gameplay (at a station.)
As for world PVP and what players "don't want"? Players don't want their PVP to not be about PVP (which is exactly what happens in World PVP, where more than half the game is spent building up and traveling around, and the actual time spent PVPing is a fraction of the overall time spent playing.) It's no big surprise that PVPers want PVP, and that World PVP provides very little (and bad) PVP.
Nobody ever wanted to play an arbitrary definition of what MMORPGs "should be". Most players just want a fun game first, and if it's also a virtual world then great (but if not: no big loss.)
Okay. Well, you have WoW, AoC, WAR, STO, RIFT, and SWTOR. Those meet your linear requirements.
You mind if the real players get a game, too?
Game developers obviously don't think you're real enough...
Yes, because every Theme Park game post-WoW has been a raging success story, eh?
How's Xyson, Perpectuum, Darkfall, and Mortal Online doing for you? Is Eve still carrying the sandbox torch? SWG managing ok?
Sweet. Another person who thinks that in order for a game to have a good social environment, it has to be a hardcore sandbox.
Regardless, the money it took to make most of those sandbox games probably doesn't equal the ultimate failure of just one of your over-hyped and over-paid Theme Parks.
I've said it for years, the community is the main thing that makes or breaks a game. In older MMOs, the community was very tight-knit. Today, everyone is in it for themselves, and couldn't care less for other players.
I'm just going to quote you and agree, because sometimes I feel like I'm just repeating myself. Being able to solo everything and having no penalties or responsibilities makes people completely detached from the community, and it really hurts the community.
There is nonsense on both sides. People don't like to come on the forums seeing post like 'If you like Wow or Star Wars, you are not a real MMO fan.' It's insulting and as far from the truth as possible. We have different taste, but we are still fans of the genre.
They want to play something like Guild Wars or Diablo where you have social hubs and instanced questing areas. They want an experience that is quick to get into and rewards them constantly for doing nothing like all the ribbons you get in BF3.
I agree with this to a certain extent. I want to log in and have fun for a while. If playing requires me to wait in a hub to make a group or spend ten minutes traveling to an instance, then they are likely going to lose me.
They don't want to explore vast worlds, have a challenge or do any world content. They certainlly are not interested in the idea of a virtual seamless world like what MMOs tried to offer in the past.
I like exploring areas once. After that, what's the point.
For me an MMO has to have a persistent world that can have a MASSIVE amount of players in any one area. That is the basis of the gameplay because if Planetside 2 only offered 64 player fights and then a social hub to visit it wouldn't be an MMO. Yet we have games these days calling themselves MMOs and they lack any of this.
If I'm not killing you or grouping with you, what do I care about how many people are in my area?
Every MMO I've ever loved playing has been ruined by all the whiners on the forums. The problem is the developers listen to them, give them what they want and patch by patch we slowly lose the MMO and are just left with a multiplayer game.
Maybe the kind of game you like isn't profitable. Maybe you are in the minority.
We have these amazing cities in SWTOR with no one in them because of that fleet station and it has ruined the MMO in that game. I at least want people to be in those cities and not the fleet station which shouldn't even be in the game in the first place.
Allowing people to port to instances can let people be in those cities rather than in the fleet reading the general chat channel. Frankly, I want to spend my time efficiently doing stuff. Why do I want to hang out in a hub.
What is happening to world PVP now? Well it barely exists outside of the PVP planets and oh look the population cap on them is getting shrunk already. There is even talk about just turning them into bigger battlegrounds like AV. The players on Ilum don't want a world PVP experience, they just want to exploit and farm the game until they ruin it and the developers take out world PVP altogether like what happened in WoW.
Until they fix faction imbalances, world PVP will always be broken.
Every MMO this has happened to and the last one I truely loved to play (SWG) it happened to that too. Forums whiners slowly got that game dumbed down over time to the point it was ruined well before the CU or the NGE. The CU was the straw and the NGE was just he final Nail, but the truth is that game was well and truely going down the shitter by early 2004.
SWG was never going to be the success Lucas Arts wanted.
SWTOR has made me realise that no one wants to play MMOs anymore and I have no interest in carrying on with the genre that clearly died out many years ago. What it has turned into today is all thanx to the casual crowd that WoW brought it and they moaned until they killed that game off too. Mythic had the right idea in not having any forums and the only dveeloper that has managed to keep their MMO true to their vision is CCP, so credit to them for that. I'd watch out though it probably wont be too long before it becomes class and loot based lol.
Comments
Yes hindsight is 20/20. I know that Blizzard couldn't have known. But intention isn't magic.
You define growing the genre as increasing the player base. I define growing the genre as making MMOs become more MMO. Removing the majority of the features that defined MMOs at their conception to increase the playerbase is not the same as making people like MMOs. WoW CREATED A NEW GENRE. It killed MMOs. And the growing of the genre was all from marketing. If you had put the kind of marketing and money WoW had into a sandbox, and no, not EvE, it would have grown the genre. Maybe only 5 or 8 million instead of 10million, but at least it would have been MMOs that they were growing.
Of course no one will know for sure since I am NOT on the dark side of the street.
However, I suspect I will just find something ELSE to do. It is not like MMO is the ONLY available entertainment option to me. I can play other type of video games. I can watch tv/anmime/movies. I can read novels. I don't get attached to a single thing .. particularly when it is just a game.
I do remember when Isaac Asimov, my favorite sci-fi author, died, i did not bitch & moan (at least not for long) about how "unfair" that he has the audacity to DIE and deprive me of my entertainment. I just move on to other stuff. I think it is a bit too much to be bitter over some past time.
Books are not a valid comparison. There was far more diversity of style and genre and far higher availability in books than in MMOs. You can't have the kind of great game but too low budget like you have in indie sandboxes in books.
I really dislike how you and Axehilt pick poor analogies for your arguments. I dealt with problems in books, like Martin taking so long and RJ dying by finding other books that I enjoyed. But that isn't possible in games.
Your definition is not a) normal usage of the word "growth", and b) vague because no one has authority to say what "more MMO" means. Who said "sandbox" should inherit the label MMO?
Just like Diablo take over the "action RPG" label, i don't see why the WOW-kind of games cannot become the new norm (actually it does) of MMOs. It is just semantics.
What you mean is that they don't make games that YOU LIKE.
And i highly doubt if even Blizz can make Eve popular. Just look at the pressure from their player base. Do you think they put in LFD and LFR just because they feel they want to push the genre this way? Those are POPULAR features. Those are what people WANT.
I really don't see how you can redefine the common use of the term MMOs and says WOW should not be using that label. Obviously you can't even convince people HERE, and you have no chance with the larger industry/market.
You are kidding me right? You know how MANY video games are out there?
I can pick up good games to play ALL DAY. The problem is that I do NOT have enough time. That is why i never bother to play games I even dislike a little.
If you don't like games at all, that is your issue. There are plenty out there. It is like saying you don't like the whole detective genre. Fine. Find some other genre to read.
Once again, there is no reason to play MMO if you don't like. There are PLENTY of other entertainment options. BTW, this is NOT an analogy. Dont play MMO, pick up a book. Both can entertain.
2. No you aren't. You are picking through my words like an Afro comb.
and this is the action iv have chosesen for myself. there isent anything out worth playing atm. like i stated before... just biding my time.
Yeh. That is very reasonable. There is no reason to spend time and money on things you do not like.
No. You keep missing the point. Constantly. You are smart. I can tell. Stop fucking it up.
I can find other games to play. I played TAO and ATITD. I played WF. I bought 1000$ of games from Impulse that I played for thousands of hours.
But I can't find another MMOMMOMMO TO PLAY.
Im goign to go wayyyy out on a limb here and guess you are in the very SMALL minority on your lifestyle. thanks for the laugh tho.
So? Why are you SO bitter about just a genre of games? I can't find a good US lock-room mystery novel either (if you go into THAT hobby, the genre died out in the US DECADES ago).
You don't see my demanding writers to go back and write novels in that genre (like those by John Dickson Carr).
You seem to be all set in your leisure time. Why even bother in a hobby with products you don't like?
I quited WOW for a few months before they introduced LFR. I stopped coming to this site. I really don't get this mentality of tryinng to DEMAND the market to do what you want. You know, as much as I do, that it is a lost course ANYWAY.
Yes it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its the exact perfect definition of growth. You always look at everything in such a fucking titled way.
GROWING TOMATOES IS NOT GROWING POTATOES.
GROWING LOBBY BASED COOP WITH PERSISTANT AREAS IS NOT GROWING MMOS.
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME GENRE.
I FUCKING LIKE WOW AND I LIKE DIABLO AND I LIKE LOL. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT COMPANIES ARE MAKING MMOS.
And as for redefining the term, clearly we can redefine the term if we have specific power. And we have a perfect example of how to do it BECAUSE THAT IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT WITH WOW. THEY CHANGED THE DEFINITION OF MMORPG IN THE MIND OF CASUALS.
If you teach little kids that green is red, they will think that green is red from that point on and will teach their kids that green is red. The next generation of kids will then grow up believing that green is red even though it isnt and older people won't be able to dissuade them. Just like people came into the genre thinking that WoW was the definitive jumping off point for what an MMO is like because it was the frist god damn game they played.
Green is still not red. You can argue that it is effectively red since only a few people who remain know the truth. That doesn't mean that the people who think green is green are wrong and the people who think green is red are right.
Even if we agree that vanilla WoW began as more mmorpg than lobby game that doesn't mean that for the rest of eternity WoW is still an MMO. I am not conceeding that vanilla WoW was a true MMO in the sense that UO or muds or even EQ were, but it doesn't matter anyway because WoW is clearly not an MMO NOW.
Except in the minds of people who hated old MMOs or had WoW as their first MMO.
Anyways, its clear that I can't deal emotionally with this argument, especially not when you keep coming up with this fucking weird conclusions like me hating WoW or using shit analogies like the book ones. So I will stop.
I am actually prepared for a temp ban for this post, because based on bans in the past this may violate the forum rules, but I don't care.
Although the emotional costs of posting on this site are immensely high, the time it takes me to post here is insignificant because my free time is obscenely high. I go to college and get all As and the occasional B even though I refuse to spend the "required" 2 hours of home time for each hour of class. I spend maybe 30 minutes TOPS. It takes me maybe an hour a day to post all the things I do here and only 50% of the time does it upset me so much.
Its only particular posters who really upset me. Quizzical for instance can disagree quite a lot with my opinions, but somehow it is not in any way as infuriating as dealing with you.
Which leads me to another interesting question. Why are you replying at all? Don't you think it is a bit silly to be so upset about what some other guy think about GAMES on the other side of the internet?
I totally agree here.
After playing swtor and watching some responses to toppics about the linear world, class quests who are more single player content, a world without much to explore, crafting which is actually done by your companion, questing with your transparent map open following the narrows paths and everything (even the treasure boxes) are marked on your map....
I come to the conclusion that the mmorpg genre is quiete devided in the meanwhile. There are actually people who appreciate solo content and apprecieate the "everything is delivered on a silver plate" mentality....
Easy to say when there are dozens of MMO's that cater to your taste..which, came about due to the excessive whining of the casual generation introduced to the genre mainly by WoW.
So now...you have tons of people who had played prior to that looking for even just one revert to the old style...that sadly will more than likely never happen because the casual crowd is larger and whines louder. Pretty damn selfish if you ask me that you get chastisized for wanting just one that caters to the old school style...regardless of how likely or unlikely that possibility is.
@ Cuathon: Don't waste your time. Some people here are completely lost as to why MMORPG's are a DIFFERENT GENRE from console games, etc. Others just like to be assholes and agrue with you for their own enjoyment. The latter is actually interesting if you think about it......because if the current batch of MMORPG's are so great....then WHY are these trolls wasting as much time on these forums as they do arguing with you? More than likely because the PvP is better than their games and more entertaining. Yet...they keep asking for more of the same fenced in grassy fields for them and the rest of the flock to graze in for a month or two before being herded to the next fenced in field.
We might as well give it up hommie. theres nothing you can say to them that will ever matter. we have our way of thinking and they have theres. i just hope that someone... anyone makes a AAA sandbox that gets dev support.
It is kindda funny, that not listening to players leads to the best games, but it seem to be proved true again and again.
People always seek simple solutions (black/white/good/evil), and therefore when the players gets influence on a game, it just gets simpler, easier, dumber and moving away from its original intent/design. Some think it is great that they now have influence over a game because of the influence itself, but fail to see the bigger picture. Others think they don't want simpler, but if they had the influence it would also lead to simplicity, just another route there.
But wait, my simplicity is good for the game and I thought it through ... sure maybe, but then reality kicks in, so when your great idea is adopted into a game, it was not quite how you imagined it. Thing is the developer will not take your precise suggesion understanding all your thoughts behind it, but rather combine the opinions and add theirs, and again end up with .. lowest common denominator.
The small crowd of real mmorpg lovers that used to sustain a few good games hasnt really grown much in numbers, but are now scattered over so many games, that it is no longer viable to make those special games. Even if a developer decided to make a game that has "it", they wouldn't succeed because the player base (customer base) will not flock to your game out of thousands.
So am I saying those millions of players who have kicked the mmo genre to the skies are not mmorpg lovers ? Uhm yes, that is exactly what I am saying, but not in a negative way, they just want something else - And they are getting exactly that. And that is the mmo game business today, like it or not.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
No. I'm playing Open Betas as the market demands.
I've said it for years, the community is the main thing that makes or breaks a game. In older MMOs, the community was very tight-knit. Today, everyone is in it for themselves, and couldn't care less for other players. In older MMOs, there were actually petitions (and sometimes didn't even need one) for Devs to even put in statues and memorials for players that passed away. In one of my old old timey MMOs the Devs even put in an entire town named after a player since he was the leader of one of the major guilds in the game. Now you'll never see anything of the like. Community on just about every game I've played (except Rift, FFXI, DAoC) should get a community score of 1-3 out of 10.
Sweet. Another person who thinks that in order for a game to have a good social environment, it has to be a hardcore sandbox.
Regardless, the money it took to make most of those sandbox games probably doesn't equal the ultimate failure of just one of your over-hyped and over-paid Theme Parks.
I'm just going to quote you and agree, because sometimes I feel like I'm just repeating myself. Being able to solo everything and having no penalties or responsibilities makes people completely detached from the community, and it really hurts the community.