Fact is, niether you or I set the standard for a definition of an "MMO". The industry does.
And who influances the industry? I thought gamers with the fat pockets influance the industy. if that is indeed the case, then the fact is that you and i set the standered for the definition of what an MMO is. only problem is the money that influenes the industry is coming from the casuals.
What I'm saying... is that we don't' control when a company makes a game and places the term "MMORPG" on the box. The company makes this decision based on the general definition of what an MMO is. We don't "influance" them to put that title on the box. You get it?
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet, and usually feature at least one persistent world. They are, however, not necessarily games played on personal computers. Most of the newer game consoles, including the PSP, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Nintendo DS and Wii can access the Internet and may therefore run MMO games. Additionally, mobile devices and smartphones based on such operating systems as Android, iOS and Windows Phone are seeing an increase in the number of MMO games available.
MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.
And of course the money is coming from the casuals. It takes us longer to complete content. While a "hardcore" might blow through TOR's content in say, two weeks to a month, it will take me at least six months to a year. I will spend more money and am less likely to quit cause I ran out of things to do. If you were trying to make money, wouldn't you aim at the latter?
No we are the nice home owners, and you guys are the trailer park next door that is lowering our property vaules.
How? How did influx of casual players affect hardcore games and virtual worlds? They are still getting produced, and they still have similar budgets as before the influx. You think that your situation is worse, but it's exactly the same - it's just the influx of people with better situation (AAA budgets) made your conditions seem worse.
OMG with this shit. Our games are far and few in between. and when something does come out its absolute garbage. The problem is there are so many Theampark....... Trailorpark MMOs that the chances of a good one comming out for you is alot higher then a good AAA Sandbox game coming out for us.
So dont give us that " oh there making games for you to" song and dance. Its getting old.
Thats where you choose to go with this? If i dont like it, make it myself? Now im shaking my head at you in RL. Must be nice over there on your side of the fence. Pleanty of games to play and mobs to crush. Ill admit im bitter about it. Just wish you Theamparkers would admit that you feel a bit smug. "Oh its not our fault that only our games are being made. we feel so bad for the rest of you that are waiting endlessly for that AAA sandbox to lauch" /smug
What did you expect? It's not charity - you can't expect that other players will suddenly donate money for games you like (but they hate), just because you're in minority. You have no right to blame anyone, really.
>.> i do have the right to blame someone. If someone is the cause of something then there to blame. theres no gray area here. its black and white. casuals caused this pandemic in the MMO nation so ergo there to blame.
Except this "pandemic" didn't touch you. You received what you paid for before, you receive what you pay for now. Just because MMO genre has grown, it doesn't mean it has grown at your cost.
Fact is, niether you or I set the standard for a definition of an "MMO". The industry does.
And who influances the industry? I thought gamers with the fat pockets influance the industy. if that is indeed the case, then the fact is that you and i set the standered for the definition of what an MMO is. only problem is the money that influenes the industry is coming from the casuals.
What I'm saying... is that we don't' control when a company makes a game and places the term "MMORPG" on the box. The company makes this decision based on the general definition of what an MMO is. We don't "influance" them to put that title on the box. You get it?
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet, and usually feature at least one persistent world. They are, however, not necessarily games played on personal computers. Most of the newer game consoles, including the PSP, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Nintendo DS and Wii can access the Internet and may therefore run MMO games. Additionally, mobile devices and smartphones based on such operating systems as Android, iOS and Windows Phone are seeing an increase in the number of MMO games available.
MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.
And of course the money is coming from the casuals. It takes us longer to complete content. While a "hardcore" might blow through TOR's content in say, two weeks to a month, it will take me at least six months to a year. I will spend more money and am less likely to quit cause I ran out of things to do. If you were trying to make money, wouldn't you aim at the latter?
LOL at this. i have to go to the store but dont you worry. ill be back to respond to this.
No we are the nice home owners, and you guys are the trailer park next door that is lowering our property vaules.
How? How did influx of casual players affect hardcore games and virtual worlds? They are still getting produced, and they still have similar budgets as before the influx. You think that your situation is worse, but it's exactly the same - it's just the influx of people with better situation (AAA budgets) made your conditions seem worse.
OMG with this shit. Our games are far and few in between. and when something does come out its absolute garbage. The problem is there are so many Theampark....... Trailorpark MMOs that the chances of a good one comming out for you is alot higher then a good AAA Sandbox game coming out for us.
So dont give us that " oh there making games for you to" song and dance. Its getting old.
Your games were always like that. Hardcore budget hasn't changed, it's just your expectations have grown, because others came with bigger budgets. It's perceptual change, not factual one.
In other words, when rich kids came with AAA toys, you realized yours aren't AAA, started to demand better on no basis other than "others have it", and to top that, blamed rich kids for everything.
Fact is, niether you or I set the standard for a definition of an "MMO". The industry does.
And who influances the industry? I thought gamers with the fat pockets influance the industy. if that is indeed the case, then the fact is that you and i set the standered for the definition of what an MMO is. only problem is the money that influenes the industry is coming from the casuals.
What I'm saying... is that we don't' control when a company makes a game and places the term "MMORPG" on the box. The company makes this decision based on the general definition of what an MMO is. We don't "influance" them to put that title on the box. You get it?
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet, and usually feature at least one persistent world. They are, however, not necessarily games played on personal computers. Most of the newer game consoles, including the PSP, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Nintendo DS and Wii can access the Internet and may therefore run MMO games. Additionally, mobile devices and smartphones based on such operating systems as Android, iOS and Windows Phone are seeing an increase in the number of MMO games available.
MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.
And of course the money is coming from the casuals. It takes us longer to complete content. While a "hardcore" might blow through TOR's content in say, two weeks to a month, it will take me at least six months to a year. I will spend more money and am less likely to quit cause I ran out of things to do. If you were trying to make money, wouldn't you aim at the latter?
LOL at this. i have to go to the store but dont you worry. ill be back to respond to this.
No we are the nice home owners, and you guys are the trailer park next door that is lowering our property vaules.
How? How did influx of casual players affect hardcore games and virtual worlds? They are still getting produced, and they still have similar budgets as before the influx. You think that your situation is worse, but it's exactly the same - it's just the influx of people with better situation (AAA budgets) made your conditions seem worse.
OMG with this shit. Our games are far and few in between. and when something does come out its absolute garbage. The problem is there are so many Theampark....... Trailorpark MMOs that the chances of a good one comming out for you is alot higher then a good AAA Sandbox game coming out for us.
So dont give us that " oh there making games for you to" song and dance. Its getting old.
Your games were always like that. Hardcore budget hasn't changed, it's just your expectations have grown, because others came with bigger budgets. It's perceptual change, not factual one.
In other words, when rich kids came with AAA toys, you realized yours aren't AAA, started to demand better on no basis other than "others have it", and to top that, blamed rich kids for everything.
Huh? EQ wasn't AAA???
Offtopic: And Praet your brother in law wasn't a hipster (unless he doesn't really like it and then he's a poser) ...most Nordic metal is a bit extreme for people to think you are cool for listening to it, they just think you're crazy. Nu metal was a scourge on the metal community and not altogether different than our discussion on MMO's. It brought in a lot of non metal fans (homey yos) that the rest of the metal community looked at with disdain.
No we are the nice home owners, and you guys are the trailer park next door that is lowering our property vaules.
How? How did influx of casual players affect hardcore games and virtual worlds? They are still getting produced, and they still have similar budgets as before the influx. You think that your situation is worse, but it's exactly the same - it's just the influx of people with better situation (AAA budgets) made your conditions seem worse.
OMG with this shit. Our games are far and few in between. and when something does come out its absolute garbage. The problem is there are so many Theampark....... Trailorpark MMOs that the chances of a good one comming out for you is alot higher then a good AAA Sandbox game coming out for us.
So dont give us that " oh there making games for you to" song and dance. Its getting old.
Your games were always like that. Hardcore budget hasn't changed, it's just your expectations have grown, because others came with bigger budgets. It's perceptual change, not factual one.
In other words, when rich kids came with AAA toys, you realized yours aren't AAA, started to demand better on no basis other than "others have it", and to top that, blamed rich kids for everything.
Huh? EQ wasn't AAA???
That depends on definition of AAA. It doesn't make any difference, though - hardcore games on EQ budget are still being made, but people demand more variety and WoW levels of polish, which they never had in the first place. It's not a question of hardcore players loosing anything to casuals, it's just a question of them not gaining as much as others.
No we are the nice home owners, and you guys are the trailer park next door that is lowering our property vaules.
How? How did influx of casual players affect hardcore games and virtual worlds? They are still getting produced, and they still have similar budgets as before the influx. You think that your situation is worse, but it's exactly the same - it's just the influx of people with better situation (AAA budgets) made your conditions seem worse.
OMG with this shit. Our games are far and few in between. and when something does come out its absolute garbage. The problem is there are so many Theampark....... Trailorpark MMOs that the chances of a good one comming out for you is alot higher then a good AAA Sandbox game coming out for us.
So dont give us that " oh there making games for you to" song and dance. Its getting old.
Your games were always like that. Hardcore budget hasn't changed, it's just your expectations have grown, because others came with bigger budgets. It's perceptual change, not factual one.
In other words, when rich kids came with AAA toys, you realized yours aren't AAA, started to demand better on no basis other than "others have it", and to top that, blamed rich kids for everything.
Huh? EQ wasn't AAA???
Offtopic: And Praet your brother in law wasn't a hipster (unless he doesn't really like it and then he's a poser) ...most Nordic metal is a bit extreme for people to think you are cool for listening to it, they just think you're crazy. Nu metal was a scourge on the metal community and not altogether different than our discussion on MMO's. It brought in a lot of non metal fans (homey yos) that the rest of the metal community looked at with disdain.
Riiiiiiiight......... I'm not the type who puts to much thought into what to call the music that I listen to. My though is placed into what I'm listening to and whether or not I like it. I only categorize music into two areas - shit I like and shit I don't. Basically, if I listen to it and like it, I continue to listen to it. If I hear it and don't, I don't listen. I don't care if it's a band who sold out, I don't care if it's easy listening, I don't care what you call it, if I like it, I like it. Same with games.
You get it? It's the same damn thing. What genre a game is placed into means nothing. The gameplay is all that matters to me. Call it a CORPG, call it a MMORPG, call it a Lobby RPG - I don't care. If I play it and like it, I like it. If I play it and don't, I don't.
Oh and when I said he was a "hipster" I meant the general knowledge regarding hipster's disdain for the mainstream.
Whew this thread has been blowing up, read the last 6 pages or so that I missed... hope my employer doesn't mind too much
I see a lot of people trying to understand the concepts of change over the course of the MMO industry. I personally enjoy analogies, although they have a flaw of always not EXACTLY matching what you are talking about so it is often easy to pick apart a analogy... but I still like them... What I will like this to is the Mom and Pop stores versus the Wal-Marts and Targets of the world. As there is a similar statement that is uttered in both of these scenarios, being "They don't make <what I want> like they used to". And my example is going to be... a hammer.
Yes a hammer, maybe you buy it at Wal-Mart, maybe its from Home Depot, Lowe's whatever works for you. How has a hammer changed over the past, say 50 years. The hammer "isn't made like it used to" and that is true. Hammers at one point were quality, hand-made items that were made to last a persons lifetime. You bought a hammer, you bought it for life. Now more people want hammers, but no one wants to spend the money for a quality hammer, say one that a carpenter might need, because their use of the hammer is "casual".
So the market responds by instead of making a few, more expensive, quality hammers they start making cheaper hammers for non-carpenters. But the problem is now the carpenters cannot go to the Mom and Pop stores to obtain the quality hammer because the Mom and Pop store is out of business, so they have to go to Home Depot for their hammers. "Crap" quality hammers that while work for the general populas have no business in the hands of a carpenter.
If you can follow the analogy its currently one of my favorites to explain a lot of different markets, and the big stores (Rift, WoW, etc.) tend to churn out the cheap hammers, put the Mom and Pops out of business (EQ, UO, etc.) resulting in a shift in the market where it is very difficult to find those quality hammers, and often you have to know someone who makes them by hand, or a small store which has survived (EVE).
I'm sure you will all have fun ripping my analogy apart, but I like it...
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
No we are the nice home owners, and you guys are the trailer park next door that is lowering our property vaules.
How? How did influx of casual players affect hardcore games and virtual worlds? They are still getting produced, and they still have similar budgets as before the influx. You think that your situation is worse, but it's exactly the same - it's just the influx of people with better situation (AAA budgets) made your conditions seem worse.
OMG with this shit. Our games are far and few in between. and when something does come out its absolute garbage. The problem is there are so many Theampark....... Trailorpark MMOs that the chances of a good one comming out for you is alot higher then a good AAA Sandbox game coming out for us.
So dont give us that " oh there making games for you to" song and dance. Its getting old.
Your games were always like that. Hardcore budget hasn't changed, it's just your expectations have grown, because others came with bigger budgets. It's perceptual change, not factual one.
In other words, when rich kids came with AAA toys, you realized yours aren't AAA, started to demand better on no basis other than "others have it", and to top that, blamed rich kids for everything.
So your telling the toys of today are better then the toys from back in the day? i dont think so. has nothing to do with rich kids and there toys. has to do with quality. theres something to be said about the cardboard box. it didnt cost much and you would play with it for hours. you view is skewed somewhat on this issue.
SWTOR's is your ammunition with which to condemn all players?
I have a lvl 50 shadow in SWTOR's which I unsubbed from after the first month because the game is sooooooooooooooo bad.
Your like the guy eating at Mc'donalds and wondering why no one appreciates their food. Hint : It's bad food.
Swtor's is the absolute deffinition of failure. IMO it's way way worse than WARHAMMER in almost every aspect.
If TRION had the Starwars IP with Rift's gameplay then maybe you would have a valid arguement but then the game would also have been good and not designed by tards from EA/BW.
Fact is, niether you or I set the standard for a definition of an "MMO". The industry does.
And who influances the industry? I thought gamers with the fat pockets influance the industy. if that is indeed the case, then the fact is that you and i set the standered for the definition of what an MMO is. only problem is the money that influenes the industry is coming from the casuals.
What I'm saying... is that we don't' control when a company makes a game and places the term "MMORPG" on the box. The company makes this decision based on the general definition of what an MMO is. We don't "influance" them to put that title on the box. You get it?
But we do have influence on WHAT is being made do we not? IF the co desides its a MMO or not is besides the point. you could call skyrin an MMO if they wanted to. the point is that its WE who decide whats being made and those in charge atm are the casuals. causals want easy games to play and they want them in the MMO genre so guess what. there being made.
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet, and usually feature at least one persistent world. They are, however, not necessarily games played on personal computers. Most of the newer game consoles, including the PSP, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Nintendo DS and Wii can access the Internet and may therefore run MMO games. Additionally, mobile devices and smartphones based on such operating systems as Android, iOS and Windows Phone are seeing an increase in the number of MMO games available.
MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.
And of course the money is coming from the casuals. It takes us longer to complete content. While a "hardcore" might blow through TOR's content in say, two weeks to a month, it will take me at least six months to a year. I will spend more money and am less likely to quit cause I ran out of things to do. If you were trying to make money, wouldn't you aim at the latter?
THIS couldent be farther from the truth. infact its the casuals that are the first to jump ship from an MMO. MMOs are throwaway games to them. They made them so easy, so liner that a casual can have 2 or 3 or even 4 Theampark MMOs qued up and play one each day.
They dont want to invest time into a good MMO so they have them dumbed down to accommodate them and there play style. say what you want but its been my experience that the casual is the FIRST to go in MMOs.
LOL at this. i have to go to the store but dont you worry. ill be back to respond to this.
Whew this thread has been blowing up, read the last 6 pages or so that I missed... hope my employer doesn't mind too much
I see a lot of people trying to understand the concepts of change over the course of the MMO industry. I personally enjoy analogies, although they have a flaw of always not EXACTLY matching what you are talking about so it is often easy to pick apart a analogy... but I still like them... What I will like this to is the Mom and Pop stores versus the Wal-Marts and Targets of the world. As there is a similar statement that is uttered in both of these scenarios, being "They don't make like they used to". And my example is going to be... a hammer.
Yes a hammer, maybe you buy it at Wal-Mart, maybe its from Home Depot, Lowe's whatever works for you. How has a hammer changed over the past, say 50 years. The hammer "isn't made like it used to" and that is true. Hammers at one point were quality, hand-made items that were made to last a persons lifetime. You bought a hammer, you bought it for life. Now more people want hammers, but no one wants to spend the money for a quality hammer, say one that a carpenter might need, because their use of the hammer is "casual".
So the market responds by instead of making a few, more expensive, quality hammers they start making cheaper hammers for non-carpenters. But the problem is now the carpenters cannot go to the Mom and Pop stores to obtain the quality hammer because the Mom and Pop store is out of business, so they have to go to Home Depot for their hammers. "Crap" quality hammers that while work for the general populas have no business in the hands of a carpenter.
If you can follow the analogy its currently one of my favorites to explain a lot of different markets, and the big stores (Rift, WoW, etc.) tend to churn out the cheap hammers, put the Mom and Pops out of business (EQ, UO, etc.) resulting in a shift in the market where it is very difficult to find those quality hammers, and often you have to know someone who makes them by hand, or a small store which has survived (EVE).
I'm sure you will all have fun ripping my analogy apart, but I like it...
My only complaint here is that the analogy doesn't apply to the actual complaint. That is hammers are still hammers and they still do what hammers always did. Whether the hammer is crap or not its still a hammer. SO I guess I would say, we have a lot of crappily made hammers by indie companies but since the majority of new people play themeparks the popularly known MMOs of today are not really MMOs anymore.
Its more like MMORPGs are screwdrivers now and not hammers at all and the quality is not as important as the basic format of the tool.
No we are the nice home owners, and you guys are the trailer park next door that is lowering our property vaules.
How? How did influx of casual players affect hardcore games and virtual worlds? They are still getting produced, and they still have similar budgets as before the influx. You think that your situation is worse, but it's exactly the same - it's just the influx of people with better situation (AAA budgets) made your conditions seem worse.
OMG with this shit. Our games are far and few in between. and when something does come out its absolute garbage. The problem is there are so many Theampark....... Trailorpark MMOs that the chances of a good one comming out for you is alot higher then a good AAA Sandbox game coming out for us.
So dont give us that " oh there making games for you to" song and dance. Its getting old.
Your games were always like that. Hardcore budget hasn't changed, it's just your expectations have grown, because others came with bigger budgets. It's perceptual change, not factual one.
In other words, when rich kids came with AAA toys, you realized yours aren't AAA, started to demand better on no basis other than "others have it", and to top that, blamed rich kids for everything.
Well, this is just incorrect. I would venture to say that all of the old school MMO's were much higher budget and better produced than any of the newer hardcore MMO's (MO I'm looking at you). And these companies that produced the old school MMO's are done with hardcore, they will never make another EQ1 in that style. The casual fan (due to their sheer numbers) has convinced them to go the super casual max level in two weeks style. The casual fans have hurt us old school gamers, there's no arguing it.
Wow, this thread has seriously turned in to a "Naga stole my bike" thread.
And instead of going to the authorities to get it back, they try to confront the big guy themselves.
But we all know what happens next:
And guess who's still got the bike?
You must not have finished watching Friday. didnt Devo get, how do they put it... oh thats right. KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT! Dude got his bike and his chain back.
So many people miss the point of the OP. Casuals come in and say they want to play casual leisure games. As if the OP doesn't know this. He does know it. That's why he thinks its weird that they play MMOs. Instead of something like Diablo.
I think the world would be a better place if they had made WoW a more Diablo type game. Like started with Diablo and added the WoW style graphics and push from there to more uninstanced areas and adding some features from EQ. Starting with EQ and constantly pushing towards Diablo is starting with the wrong end and ruining the MMO genre when there was a much faster and more intuitive way to do it without crapping on a genre that was never intended for casuals.
Ok, I am the "casual" you speak of and I don't want a CORPG. I want an MMO. Just because I want some conveniences also, doesn't mean I don't want to interact with other players. We've talked about this before. Diablo and other CORPG's only have your group in the area, no others. I don't want that. I like TOR where I run across others all the time.
Just because we don't want your style of MMO, doesn't mean we don't want an MMO.
And it's completely your opinion that the MMO genre was not intended for casuals. Casuals spend more time and money on MMO's as they don't burn through the content, bitch and un-sub as fast as hardcore gamers. I don't need to prove I'm correct about that... just look where the money is going. Look where the genre is going. I'm as happy as can be with what is coming out and someone else is not. That proves I'm correct....lol
If you read the post I talked about that. You don't want an MMO. You want a corpg with SOME mmo FEATURES. That is not the same as wanting an MMO. Running across other people is a feature of MMOs but the way that casuals interact in MMOs was not how it was intended to be.
You literally made an argument ad populum. Intentionally. "I'm right because the majority wants this." The majority also doesn't want an MMO.
If you played early, read : real, MMOs you would know that the genre was not intended for casuals.
99% of the people on this forum are so fucking ignorant about social dynamics. They have no idea what colonization of niche genres means.
SUM 41 and New Found Glory are not punk bands. I love their music but its not punk. Its mainstream pop colonizing punk because they liked 20% of the features of punk. Punk was developed as working class every man music with low production values and musicians who can't play that well and singers who couldn't hack it in mainstream music of the time. Pop punk is a mainly middle class and upper class genre with high production values and big concerts and tours and CDs from major publishing countries.
These pop punk bands are not punk bands. Pop punk isn't an ideal name but at least people do not constantly refer to these bands as "punk" with no qualifiers. Except little kids who don't actually know anything but what they hear on the radio. All the marketing companies telling them they are cool and original and have taste, but they are really listening to the same old pop with a slightly darker tone so that the industry can position their bands as edgey and different.
Hell, even Milo Auckerman is embarrassed by all this hot topic industry pushed bullshit and his band The Descendants are practically the godfathers of pop punk who originated the girl and food focus of the genre.
Its fine though. The word MMORPG has been so diluted that its unlikely for console kiddies and casuals ever to accept the distinction between having MMO features and being an MMO. Every creative industry has this problem so its pretty clear its not going away. The world views of social colonizers are never going to be inline with the minorities they consume.
No, no .... just no. This is so easy to see and I can't believe I didn't notice it before.
It's funny you always bring up music, cause that's the clear give away. You just hate the mainstream. You liked the old MMO's cause they were bascially like underground music. Only some people really knew what they were. Only select people played them. Then, a game like WoW comes out and brings all these people to the party, you didn't want to know about it. It's like a punk band who sells out. I bet you hate Real Big Fish also?
Not talking about you, but my 22 y/o brother in law is the same way. Hates almost everything. Anything on the radio is crap, new metal is crap, he only listens to these Nordic Metal bands that a handfull of people have heard of. He hates "casual gamers" or anything mainstream for that matter... he's a hipster. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hipster
Fact is, niether you or I set the standard for a definition of an "MMO". The industry does. You have every right to not play the game, but refusing to accept the fact that these games are MMO's, just because they're not the underground non-mainstream MMO's you want is ridiculous. You say we don't want MMO's... that's crazy. How do you know what I want? I want an MMO, perhaps just not an MMO by your definition, which is obviously far off from the industries deffinition.
oh... and by the way... a CORPG with MMO elements is an MMORPG...lol
No, I have listened to thousands of hours of SUM 41. Its still not punk. I listen to and/or play what I like regardless of genre. I just object to calling things by the wrong name. I played WoW for 10 hours a day, and I hated the crafting but I enjoyed my time. Its still not an MMORPG in its current state.
A coop rpg is not an MMO just because it has a few features. Its still a co op rpg.
My only complaint here is that the analogy doesn't apply to the actual complaint. That is hammers are still hammers and they still do what hammers always did. Whether the hammer is crap or not its still a hammer. SO I guess I would say, we have a lot of crappily made hammers by indie companies but since the majority of new people play themeparks the popularly known MMOs of today are not really MMOs anymore.
Its more like MMORPGs are screwdrivers now and not hammers at all and the quality is not as important as the basic format of the tool.
Whether the games are still considered MMORPGs or not is a matter of opinion. I guess no one is of the opinion that hammers are now screwdrivers lol. But it's more of a analysis of a historical nature for the trends of markets moving to "casual" users since they are and always be the majority.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.
Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.
Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.
I don't buy into the argument that an MMO has to require half of your life. UO was called an MMORPG not an MMOVW. Game is the key.
I'm also not part of the instant gratification crowd. I agree that if you play more, you get more. I'm a 36 year old farmer/factory worker, I know the value of time and work.
The current thempark model fits me fine because I can log in for however long I have and still feel like I've accomplished something. Even if "something" is gaining half of a level or traveling to my next questing destination or competing in a battleground or hanging out talking with my guildies or whatever the heck I feel like doing at the time.
The argument that people who sit in front of a computer playing games for 10 hours a day need their own genre away from people who bathe is rediculous.
They didn't have to call it a virtual world for fucks sake. Because all MMOs were basically virtual worlds up to that time. This instancing and phasing shit didn't exist. You can't make a distinction between 2 things when one of them doesn't exist. This is such a dumb argument.
My only complaint here is that the analogy doesn't apply to the actual complaint. That is hammers are still hammers and they still do what hammers always did. Whether the hammer is crap or not its still a hammer. SO I guess I would say, we have a lot of crappily made hammers by indie companies but since the majority of new people play themeparks the popularly known MMOs of today are not really MMOs anymore.
Its more like MMORPGs are screwdrivers now and not hammers at all and the quality is not as important as the basic format of the tool.
Whether the games are still considered MMORPGs or not is a matter of opinion. I guess no one is of the opinion that hammers are now screwdrivers lol. But it's more of a analysis of a historical nature for the trends of markets moving to "casual" users since they are and always be the majority.
People who wanted cheaper casual hammers still wanted hammers though. So the analogy may discuss the inevitable ascendancy of casuals but it still doesn't address the problem that old school players are having.
My only complaint here is that the analogy doesn't apply to the actual complaint. That is hammers are still hammers and they still do what hammers always did. Whether the hammer is crap or not its still a hammer. SO I guess I would say, we have a lot of crappily made hammers by indie companies but since the majority of new people play themeparks the popularly known MMOs of today are not really MMOs anymore.
Its more like MMORPGs are screwdrivers now and not hammers at all and the quality is not as important as the basic format of the tool.
Whether the games are still considered MMORPGs or not is a matter of opinion. I guess no one is of the opinion that hammers are now screwdrivers lol. But it's more of a analysis of a historical nature for the trends of markets moving to "casual" users since they are and always be the majority.
People who wanted cheaper casual hammers still wanted hammers though. So the analogy may discuss the inevitable ascendancy of casuals but it still doesn't address the problem that old school players are having.
It's all just a question of generalization and perspective. Hammers are still hammers yes, but they aren't made of the same "stuff". The point of the hammer hasn't changed (hitting nails), nor has the point of MMORPGs (entertainment), just the makeup of the tool (materials) or game (feature-set) has changed. Maybe comparing materials to feature-sets seems like a stretch, but both embody the makeup of the endproduct and make the sum to the parts.
Anyways I will refrain from defending the analogy any more than that, it could go back and forth from now until the end of time due to the nature of analogies.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Wow, this thread has seriously turned in to a "Naga stole my bike" thread.
And instead of going to the authorities to get it back, they try to confront the big guy themselves.
But we all know what happens next:
And guess who's still got the bike?
You must not have finished watching Friday. didnt Devo get, how do they put it... oh thats right. KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT! Dude got his bike and his chain back.
I tell you what. Just like the movie, if you truly want your bike back, you are going to have to wait until someone does the dirty work you couldn't do and lay me out. Then you can get it back while I'm down.
Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.
Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.
Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.
I don't buy into the argument that an MMO has to require half of your life. UO was called an MMORPG not an MMOVW. Game is the key.
I'm also not part of the instant gratification crowd. I agree that if you play more, you get more. I'm a 36 year old farmer/factory worker, I know the value of time and work.
The current thempark model fits me fine because I can log in for however long I have and still feel like I've accomplished something. Even if "something" is gaining half of a level or traveling to my next questing destination or competing in a battleground or hanging out talking with my guildies or whatever the heck I feel like doing at the time.
The argument that people who sit in front of a computer playing games for 10 hours a day need their own genre away from people who bathe is rediculous.
They didn't have to call it a virtual world for fucks sake. Because all MMOs were basically virtual worlds up to that time. This instancing and phasing shit didn't exist. You can't make a distinction between 2 things when one of them doesn't exist. This is such a dumb argument.
Ok, so by going by YOUR opinion of an MMORPG, we all have been playing...BLAHRPGs since WoW. If this was made official, how does this help old school MMO'ers?
Dev: Oh snap! we've had it wrong for the past 7 years...with the labeling. My oh my, let's stop what have been making us money because it's not an MMORPG.
They want to play something like Guild Wars or Diablo where you have social hubs and instanced questing areas. They want an experience that is quick to get into and rewards them constantly for doing nothing like all the ribbons you get in BF3. They don't want to explore vast worlds, have a challenge or do any world content. They certainlly are not interested in the idea of a virtual seamless world like what MMOs tried to offer in the past.
For me an MMO has to have a persistent world that can have a MASSIVE amount of players in any one area. That is the basis of the gameplay because if Planetside 2 only offered 64 player fights and then a social hub to visit it wouldn't be an MMO. Yet we have games these days calling themselves MMOs and they lack any of this.
Every MMO I've ever loved playing has been ruined by all the whiners on the forums. The problem is the developers listen to them, give them what they want and patch by patch we slowly lose the MMO and are just left with a multiplayer game.
It's happening and happened to SWTOR already...
People are already asking for fast travel every, the ability to just warp to any planet from your location. They're already asking for faster vehicles because they hate the travel times which in SWTOR are so small as it is. In beta they added the fleets which basically took everyone out of the worlds and put them in a social hub where they just stay there. Most people now just sit there get groups for flashpoints and battlegrounds and level up on that stuff like what happened to WoW. The worlds have no one in them because these people playing do not want to play an MMO, they just want to play Guild Wars.
We have these amazing cities in SWTOR with no one in them because of that fleet station and it has ruined the MMO in that game. I at least want people to be in those cities and not the fleet station which shouldn't even be in the game in the first place.
What is happening to world PVP now? Well it barely exists outside of the PVP planets and oh look the population cap on them is getting shrunk already. There is even talk about just turning them into bigger battlegrounds like AV. The players on Ilum don't want a world PVP experience, they just want to exploit and farm the game until they ruin it and the developers take out world PVP altogether like what happened in WoW.
Every MMO this has happened to and the last one I truely loved to play (SWG) it happened to that too. Forums whiners slowly got that game dumbed down over time to the point it was ruined well before the CU or the NGE. The CU was the straw and the NGE was just he final Nail, but the truth is that game was well and truely going down the shitter by early 2004.
SWTOR has made me realise that no one wants to play MMOs anymore and I have no interest in carrying on with the genre that clearly died out many years ago. What it has turned into today is all thanx to the casual crowd that WoW brought it and they moaned until they killed that game off too. Mythic had the right idea in not having any forums and the only dveeloper that has managed to keep their MMO true to their vision is CCP, so credit to them for that. I'd watch out though it probably wont be too long before it becomes class and loot based lol.
While i kinda agree with this i am left wondering, why you choose SWTOR as an example. A world where the maps just end with invisible walls and all the NPC's are the same charecter modle is hardly convicing to me. Perhaps Darkfall would be a better example.
Also how terrible for MMO companies to listen to there customers! LOL actually i dont agree with you on 99%.
Comments
What I'm saying... is that we don't' control when a company makes a game and places the term "MMORPG" on the box. The company makes this decision based on the general definition of what an MMO is. We don't "influance" them to put that title on the box. You get it?
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet, and usually feature at least one persistent world. They are, however, not necessarily games played on personal computers. Most of the newer game consoles, including the PSP, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Nintendo DS and Wii can access the Internet and may therefore run MMO games. Additionally, mobile devices and smartphones based on such operating systems as Android, iOS and Windows Phone are seeing an increase in the number of MMO games available.
MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.
And of course the money is coming from the casuals. It takes us longer to complete content. While a "hardcore" might blow through TOR's content in say, two weeks to a month, it will take me at least six months to a year. I will spend more money and am less likely to quit cause I ran out of things to do. If you were trying to make money, wouldn't you aim at the latter?
OMG with this shit. Our games are far and few in between. and when something does come out its absolute garbage. The problem is there are so many Theampark....... Trailorpark MMOs that the chances of a good one comming out for you is alot higher then a good AAA Sandbox game coming out for us.
So dont give us that " oh there making games for you to" song and dance. Its getting old.
Except this "pandemic" didn't touch you. You received what you paid for before, you receive what you pay for now. Just because MMO genre has grown, it doesn't mean it has grown at your cost.
LOL at this. i have to go to the store but dont you worry. ill be back to respond to this.
Your games were always like that. Hardcore budget hasn't changed, it's just your expectations have grown, because others came with bigger budgets. It's perceptual change, not factual one.
In other words, when rich kids came with AAA toys, you realized yours aren't AAA, started to demand better on no basis other than "others have it", and to top that, blamed rich kids for everything.
I await with bated breath....
Huh? EQ wasn't AAA???
Offtopic: And Praet your brother in law wasn't a hipster (unless he doesn't really like it and then he's a poser) ...most Nordic metal is a bit extreme for people to think you are cool for listening to it, they just think you're crazy. Nu metal was a scourge on the metal community and not altogether different than our discussion on MMO's. It brought in a lot of non metal fans (homey yos) that the rest of the metal community looked at with disdain.
Wow, this thread has seriously turned in to a "Naga stole my bike" thread.
And instead of going to the authorities to get it back, they try to confront the big guy themselves.
But we all know what happens next:
And guess who's still got the bike?
That depends on definition of AAA. It doesn't make any difference, though - hardcore games on EQ budget are still being made, but people demand more variety and WoW levels of polish, which they never had in the first place. It's not a question of hardcore players loosing anything to casuals, it's just a question of them not gaining as much as others.
Riiiiiiiight......... I'm not the type who puts to much thought into what to call the music that I listen to. My though is placed into what I'm listening to and whether or not I like it. I only categorize music into two areas - shit I like and shit I don't. Basically, if I listen to it and like it, I continue to listen to it. If I hear it and don't, I don't listen. I don't care if it's a band who sold out, I don't care if it's easy listening, I don't care what you call it, if I like it, I like it. Same with games.
You get it? It's the same damn thing. What genre a game is placed into means nothing. The gameplay is all that matters to me. Call it a CORPG, call it a MMORPG, call it a Lobby RPG - I don't care. If I play it and like it, I like it. If I play it and don't, I don't.
Oh and when I said he was a "hipster" I meant the general knowledge regarding hipster's disdain for the mainstream.
Whew this thread has been blowing up, read the last 6 pages or so that I missed... hope my employer doesn't mind too much
I see a lot of people trying to understand the concepts of change over the course of the MMO industry. I personally enjoy analogies, although they have a flaw of always not EXACTLY matching what you are talking about so it is often easy to pick apart a analogy... but I still like them... What I will like this to is the Mom and Pop stores versus the Wal-Marts and Targets of the world. As there is a similar statement that is uttered in both of these scenarios, being "They don't make <what I want> like they used to". And my example is going to be... a hammer.
Yes a hammer, maybe you buy it at Wal-Mart, maybe its from Home Depot, Lowe's whatever works for you. How has a hammer changed over the past, say 50 years. The hammer "isn't made like it used to" and that is true. Hammers at one point were quality, hand-made items that were made to last a persons lifetime. You bought a hammer, you bought it for life. Now more people want hammers, but no one wants to spend the money for a quality hammer, say one that a carpenter might need, because their use of the hammer is "casual".
So the market responds by instead of making a few, more expensive, quality hammers they start making cheaper hammers for non-carpenters. But the problem is now the carpenters cannot go to the Mom and Pop stores to obtain the quality hammer because the Mom and Pop store is out of business, so they have to go to Home Depot for their hammers. "Crap" quality hammers that while work for the general populas have no business in the hands of a carpenter.
If you can follow the analogy its currently one of my favorites to explain a lot of different markets, and the big stores (Rift, WoW, etc.) tend to churn out the cheap hammers, put the Mom and Pops out of business (EQ, UO, etc.) resulting in a shift in the market where it is very difficult to find those quality hammers, and often you have to know someone who makes them by hand, or a small store which has survived (EVE).
I'm sure you will all have fun ripping my analogy apart, but I like it...
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
So your telling the toys of today are better then the toys from back in the day? i dont think so. has nothing to do with rich kids and there toys. has to do with quality. theres something to be said about the cardboard box. it didnt cost much and you would play with it for hours. you view is skewed somewhat on this issue.
SWTOR's is your ammunition with which to condemn all players?
I have a lvl 50 shadow in SWTOR's which I unsubbed from after the first month because the game is sooooooooooooooo bad.
Your like the guy eating at Mc'donalds and wondering why no one appreciates their food. Hint : It's bad food.
Swtor's is the absolute deffinition of failure. IMO it's way way worse than WARHAMMER in almost every aspect.
If TRION had the Starwars IP with Rift's gameplay then maybe you would have a valid arguement but then the game would also have been good and not designed by tards from EA/BW.
thank you for holding.
My only complaint here is that the analogy doesn't apply to the actual complaint. That is hammers are still hammers and they still do what hammers always did. Whether the hammer is crap or not its still a hammer. SO I guess I would say, we have a lot of crappily made hammers by indie companies but since the majority of new people play themeparks the popularly known MMOs of today are not really MMOs anymore.
Its more like MMORPGs are screwdrivers now and not hammers at all and the quality is not as important as the basic format of the tool.
Well, this is just incorrect. I would venture to say that all of the old school MMO's were much higher budget and better produced than any of the newer hardcore MMO's (MO I'm looking at you). And these companies that produced the old school MMO's are done with hardcore, they will never make another EQ1 in that style. The casual fan (due to their sheer numbers) has convinced them to go the super casual max level in two weeks style. The casual fans have hurt us old school gamers, there's no arguing it.
You must not have finished watching Friday. didnt Devo get, how do they put it... oh thats right. KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT! Dude got his bike and his chain back.
No, I have listened to thousands of hours of SUM 41. Its still not punk. I listen to and/or play what I like regardless of genre. I just object to calling things by the wrong name. I played WoW for 10 hours a day, and I hated the crafting but I enjoyed my time. Its still not an MMORPG in its current state.
A coop rpg is not an MMO just because it has a few features. Its still a co op rpg.
Whether the games are still considered MMORPGs or not is a matter of opinion. I guess no one is of the opinion that hammers are now screwdrivers lol. But it's more of a analysis of a historical nature for the trends of markets moving to "casual" users since they are and always be the majority.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
They didn't have to call it a virtual world for fucks sake. Because all MMOs were basically virtual worlds up to that time. This instancing and phasing shit didn't exist. You can't make a distinction between 2 things when one of them doesn't exist. This is such a dumb argument.
People who wanted cheaper casual hammers still wanted hammers though. So the analogy may discuss the inevitable ascendancy of casuals but it still doesn't address the problem that old school players are having.
It's all just a question of generalization and perspective. Hammers are still hammers yes, but they aren't made of the same "stuff". The point of the hammer hasn't changed (hitting nails), nor has the point of MMORPGs (entertainment), just the makeup of the tool (materials) or game (feature-set) has changed. Maybe comparing materials to feature-sets seems like a stretch, but both embody the makeup of the endproduct and make the sum to the parts.
Anyways I will refrain from defending the analogy any more than that, it could go back and forth from now until the end of time due to the nature of analogies.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
I tell you what. Just like the movie, if you truly want your bike back, you are going to have to wait until someone does the dirty work you couldn't do and lay me out. Then you can get it back while I'm down.
Until then, you wan't some of this old man?!
Ok, so by going by YOUR opinion of an MMORPG, we all have been playing...BLAHRPGs since WoW. If this was made official, how does this help old school MMO'ers?
Dev: Oh snap! we've had it wrong for the past 7 years...with the labeling. My oh my, let's stop what have been making us money because it's not an MMORPG.
While i kinda agree with this i am left wondering, why you choose SWTOR as an example. A world where the maps just end with invisible walls and all the NPC's are the same charecter modle is hardly convicing to me. Perhaps Darkfall would be a better example.
Also how terrible for MMO companies to listen to there customers! LOL actually i dont agree with you on 99%.