"Rise up everyone and quit playing what you enjoy and what fits you to save me..."
Am I doing it right?
I didn't say quit playing it. I am not so naive that I believe anyone will magically wake up and change their opinion. Instead, I made this post to get fans of SWTOR to explain to me one thing, and one thing only.
"As a fan of SWTOR, do you feel that your playstyle and games that suit you should be the only games being made?"
That's the attitude of SWTOR fanboys, who don't realize that their fun comes (indirectly) at the expense of others, and then wonder why those others are flaming their game on the forums.
That's a simple one. Most people enjoying TOR or other themepark MMO's like LotrO, Aion, Rift, WoW etc will say 'no'.
Seems to me you're the one with the problem bc you feel that everyone enjoying themepark MMO's should feel guilty about it. So, here's a question back: as an anti TOR/themepark person (which I assume is the case based on your OP? correct me if I'm wrong), do you feel that your playstyle and games that suit you should be the only games being made?
It's clear from reading his post that the answer is no, he doesn't feel that way. Fact is, the gold standard is themeparks right now. I enjoy both stylings myself, however, he has a point. It's clearly stated. Themeparks are king and have been, yet there are a lot of gamers out there that don't have a place to go, and SWTOR is not the answer for them. They may have wanted it to be, and became angry that another hopeful title was not what they wanted. Each of these titles coming out is the same thing, and as they succeed as this one has, it will be even longer until a company grows a pair and takes a shot on game styles they like. I personally am glad you are enjoying the game, but it's less that tact to respond as you did, to someone that is upset at the state of the genre now. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean others don't.
Anyway, there at least seem to be ripples on the pond as developers seem to be realising offering the same old thing that was offered 7 years ago isn't going to break any records, or as one of the Pathfinder devs put it, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. . While they may be small ripples, games like ArcheAge (http://www.archeage.com/en), Pathfinder (https://goblinworks.com/) and possibly even GW2 appear to be trying a different approach.
It's a glimmer of hope at least for an industry that's been on creative 'pause' since WoWs success.
I think this is kinda unfair towards The Secret World, Firefall, Planetside 2 (and Blade & Soul and Continent of the Ninth to a lesser degree) for this year and games like Fallen Earth, Ryzom, Chronicles of the Spellborn, FFXIV, APB, Darkfall, Global Agenda, Vindictus and Vanguard of the past years that also do things differently than WoW themepark style.
Granted, those may not be the kind of different that you're interested in, but that doesn't make those games any less different. This is part of the problem, people only acknowledge games they like and all others are getting thrown on 1 big homogenous pile, while in truth a lot of MMO's are no part of that pile at all.
Couldnt agree more with OP, by the way i just preordered mini-TERA-game today, see you around standard monkey-thinkers.
It'll be interesting how you'll regard TERA after you've played it. TERA sounded next to TOR to me the closest addition to the themepark list, with only the combat being action oriented but the rest as themepark as you can get. But good luck, hope you have fun and let us know what'll make TERA different for you.
A lack of success means less investors in the industry. There is no such thing as a successful MMO being bad for the industry. For instance, people run at the mouth about WoW being bad for the industry... the only way this industry has so many investors and new games popping up is because of WoWs success.
It's sad how poorly people actually understand how industry works.
Sure i would like more choices, but anyone that thinks a success is bad for the industry, is just too opinionated to see clearly.
I see a lot of folks saying how great a sandbox game would be, and i always say the same thing, how do you or anyone know?
We have never had one. Not a modern one at any rate. Not a one since the good old days. Until someone makes one, we will never know.
And no, it is not a gamer problem, or people that like certain type games, we just have not had a "good" game made with open world, period. Each and every one has had major problems, from bugs to just horrible games, with terrible launches.
I sure hope that some day a decent example comes along, then we will see how an open world game does. Until then, it is just guessing that that type of game would make any difference at all in the end.
And for sure it is not the fault nor an excuse to get all heated up at the gamers that want to play a decent game, no matter what type it is.
A success bad for the industry? Naw, just for certain gamers, that are tired of what the Dev's are making is all.
Couldnt agree more with OP, by the way i just preordered mini-TERA-game today, see you around standard monkey-thinkers.
Having played the Korean version I can tell you that aside from the combat differences the game is basically a themepark like TOR. Gorgeous game though, can't wait until the NA launch. Welcome to the monkey clan.
But this is just, in the words of Charles Barkley, "tuurrrible"
Most people will be looking at second quarter numbers, knowing launches are always hyped. Actually, it's the second quarter or so where you can start to develop strong opinions about a game. It's been around for a few months, the hype has worn off, how does it stack up?
World of Warcraft did this, and had a stronger second quarter when it launched. People were addicted, they told friends, the content stayed fresh, etc. They then became the soulless leviathan that every MMO gamer hated (but most, like a heroin addiction or a homophobic televangelist, were loving it in secret.)
After the first month, they will see a sub drop. That's inevitable. The question is how they react to it.
Spot on OP. I have written numerous articles for another gaming site that saw this coming two years ago. The next 5-10 years will be mediocre success after mediocre success of ultra casual crap fest games.
Yeah I buy the games that I enjoy and have fun with.
I should feel bad and punish myself playing a bad game. Not a problem I tried enough bad MMO last year to compensate for at least 10 years of good games... like SWTOR.
TOR being successful will not hurt the genre. I think it's a good game that needs a few systems to make it a great game. When i first heard about the game and how it was gonna be more themepark than sandbox, i really didn't care that much. I was a lost pre-cu SWG drifter that has played many games, WOW being the most, so i was use to that type of gameplay.
Now since i have been playing TOR for over a month now, i stil think it's a good game, but i can clearly see some of the drawbacks and lack of certain systems that do affect the overall gameplay.
I just recieved a email from Bioware, wanting my feedback on how i think the game is doing and such. pretty sure most of you that are playing the game got that email as well. I thought this was a good chance to give some suggestions on what i think would make the game even better than it is.
PVE, class story and those quests are honestly for me the best ever. The planets are nice and big, but really don't bring the community together like they should. Those big cantina's should be a place for coming together and socializing with others on that server and having a place to hang out other than grouping up for just combat. I think they should add a entertainer profession, that could give out small stat increase's by watching dance's or playing music. Make those places come alive on all those planets.
I would also get rid of server types. Who needs all those different servers. You want to RP, PVE, PVP, that can be accomplished on one server.
For PVP, i would add the pvp system that pre-cu SWG had, the overt/covert system. I would still keep the instanced battegrounds for obtaining commendations to get pvp gear. I would have all the ranking systems and such. For open world pvp though, SWG system would be perfect. I would have it where you couldn't get pvp gear at all. I would give out pvp points, where if enough accumilated, you could go to a vendor and buy new titles and non stat SW things that wouldn't affect combat. New speeders and vehicles, at-st's and stuff like that.
I would make bases spawn on random planets, that needed to be won/held for a certain time. Whichever faction won and held the bases when time was up, that faction would get a slight stat increase and a lower vendor cost on all item's. When the bases respawned they would be in a totally different location on random planets again.
For faction imbalance, whichever faction had less people, i would spawn tough elite NPC's to even things out. The more actual players joined, those NPC's would start to disappear.
These are just a few things, i think, would make TOR a much better mmorpg and i don't think it would take a whole lot for Bioware to implement.
[mod edit] Failure does not encourage variety. If SW:Tor failed then there would be very little to no money being invested into MMO's the money would be invested somewhere else showing more profit (movies, tv, gold, bonds etc.) In fact If SW:Tor does well this will bring more investors to MMO's willing to take a chance on something new/different.
The OP should really think it through from a investors stand point maybe even research investnebrt trends rather then make blanket doom/gloom statesments because SW:Tor is not the sandbox game he wanted.
This means essentially that the next five years will be the same as the previous five years. The only thing we are going to see is more homogenized, linear themepark games. SWTOR needed to fail to send a message to the industry, and apparently it hasn't. When we needed to speak with our wallets, we did, but we sent the wrong message.
-SNIP-
Agreed, SWTOR was not only dissapointing to me as an MMO experience but also its continued success is going to generate yet more clones, the next 5 years will be The attack of the Clones and ongoing Clone Wars.
Worse still anyone who does try to break out of this clone mould is going to struggle to find a publisher to push their game as it will be seen as "too risky".
I hated MMO back in the day. Games like Diablo 1-2 were more my flav with the clicky combat action. I thought the combat in other RPGs and MMOs was slow and boring looking. This was until I found SWG; which back in 2003-2004 hid the combat dice roles and made combat feel cool. SWG had almost everything I was looking for. I was willing to overlook the lack of content even. I figured it would at least get me by and give me some skills I could take to WoW when it launched; I had no intention on staying in SWG.
Then I tried WoW and was disappointed with the mechanics of RPG combat yet again (Must face Target) I got used to it all, endured the torture of RPG style combat for the sake of gaming with other folks and played many MMOs after the demise of galaxies to find that one that just felt right to play. I even tried the FPS style MMos and they just seemed forced to say the least. Sad to say I have not found that perfect MMO. SWTOR almost had it with the combat, but the lack of freedom is a deal breaker. I'm starting to really think maybe MMOs are just not for me anymore.
Oh and can I say I agree with the OP. Games will get more and more simplistic and developers will get off on not having to put any real creativity into them or allow player expression knowing that folks will still shell out $15 per month for their games. “hey I can make a game that should be free to play and still charge fools monthly for this, and they pay it willingly oh for the lolols”
Originally posted by TheCrow2k Originally posted by Strayfe -SNIP- This means essentially that the next five years will be the same as the previous five years. The only thing we are going to see is more homogenized, linear themepark games. SWTOR needed to fail to send a message to the industry, and apparently it hasn't. When we needed to speak with our wallets, we did, but we sent the wrong message. -SNIP-
Agreed, SWTOR was not only dissapointing to me as an MMO experience but also its continued success is going to generate yet more clones, the next 5 years will be The attack of the Clones and ongoing Clone Wars.
Worse still anyone who does try to break out of this clone mould is going to struggle to find a publisher to push their game as it will be seen as "too risky".
It will take five years for any ToR copycat MMOs to come into existence. The four years and 364 days between now and then could be filled with all kinds of weird things that have nothing to do with ToR.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
OP you have started a war with this, Zit are popping all over the place.
on topic, While its true what you say, you will notice that a lot of the people coming to swtor are new to MMOs, they are just fans of SW logo. So to them its new and probably innovative, but you will see a bit of the hardcore fan base moving on, so just you know give it 6 months, it might improve it might not.
However I would like to add, when a game is released its a finished product, I mean it has bugs here and there and are patched for free, but the bugs in this game came from betas, a good chunk of them, and then they say that we are charging for content and patches and fixes. For 200mil this is truely a let down in the state it was launched.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
I am enjoying TOR, so I'll bite. You should check out No Reservations, specificially the Chicago episodes. You will see that McDonalds didn't kill quality hotdogs at all, they are in fact better than ever.
The problem with your analogy is that you seem to assume that, without Mcdonalds, all those hamburger people would have been hotdog connisseurs- they wouldn't have been. UO and EQ were not going to have 10 million subscribers if only WoW hadnt happened, the market for those games was, and is, niche. that means small market money- as in, no AAA graphics and sound and whatever. Personally, I dont think thats a terrible thing, because I dont think you have to have big money or huge numbers of players to have a great mmorpg.
A lack of success means less investors in the industry. There is no such thing as a successful MMO being bad for the industry. For instance, people run at the mouth about WoW being bad for the industry... the only way this industry has so many investors and new games popping up is because of WoWs success.
It's sad how poorly people actually understand how industry works.
EXACTLY.
If World of Warcraft had tanked when it came out, the MMO genre would have stayed a fringe niche and likely would not have had the same lognevity it's had these past 7+ years. For its time, vanilla WoW was a big risk. If it had failed and not overtaken EverQuest at the time, finding people willing to invest in the MMO genre long-term would have been a hell of a lot harder.
Failed games = lack of investment from venture capitalists = dead genre. A fair number of the games on this site wouldn't exist if enough games had failed in the early days of MMOs. Whether people here like it or not, WoW's success is why we still HAVE games to play, since people are willing to put millions on the line to get a game up and running. It showed investors that there is a market and that it should be explored.
In any industry, no matter what it is or whom it caters to, as consumers, we should be encouraging CHOICES AND VARIETY. The problem with the 'hater' vs 'fanboy' debacle is that fanboys tend to look at it from a selfish perspective. THEY are having fun, so consequently the game is great, and they wonder why everyone can't, or does not want to see how great the game is. Meanwhile, the haters are looking at it from a broader perspective of what a successful SWTOR means.
So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.
Really got to love the Haters patting themselves on the back for just wanting to stop people having fun.
So if you like it STOP your messed up your making the gaming world a bad place.
If you hate it Spread that hate tell people that they have to stop playing, make them hate it too, or more game that they may like will be made and we cant have that.
So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.
Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.
If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.
Sometimes when I read things on the internet I find myself saying "who are these people in the outside world?" Based on some of the replies in this thread I imagine folks I would not want to meet and have an intelligent discussion with.
"Rise up everyone and quit playing what you enjoy and what fits you to save me..."
Am I doing it right?
No. Try actually reading and comprehending the thread and then reply.
OP, I commend and agree with the sentiment of your thread, but I'm thinking your points will be swooshing over the heads of most people that come to it. Reading isn't a strong suit, in the US at least.
Ah yes, the "I'm smarter than everyone else and therefore have better taste" argument. A classic, certainly.
I don't really see how suggesting that someone read the original OP before making baseless assertions about the topic is the same as implying that "I'm smarter than everyone...", but please, keep the pointless rhetoric coming if it's fun for you.
Comments
It's clear from reading his post that the answer is no, he doesn't feel that way. Fact is, the gold standard is themeparks right now. I enjoy both stylings myself, however, he has a point. It's clearly stated. Themeparks are king and have been, yet there are a lot of gamers out there that don't have a place to go, and SWTOR is not the answer for them. They may have wanted it to be, and became angry that another hopeful title was not what they wanted. Each of these titles coming out is the same thing, and as they succeed as this one has, it will be even longer until a company grows a pair and takes a shot on game styles they like. I personally am glad you are enjoying the game, but it's less that tact to respond as you did, to someone that is upset at the state of the genre now. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean others don't.
Couldnt agree more with OP, by the way i just preordered mini-TERA-game today, see you around standard monkey-thinkers.
Granted, those may not be the kind of different that you're interested in, but that doesn't make those games any less different. This is part of the problem, people only acknowledge games they like and all others are getting thrown on 1 big homogenous pile, while in truth a lot of MMO's are no part of that pile at all.
It'll be interesting how you'll regard TERA after you've played it. TERA sounded next to TOR to me the closest addition to the themepark list, with only the combat being action oriented but the rest as themepark as you can get. But good luck, hope you have fun and let us know what'll make TERA different for you.No.
A lack of success means less investors in the industry. There is no such thing as a successful MMO being bad for the industry. For instance, people run at the mouth about WoW being bad for the industry... the only way this industry has so many investors and new games popping up is because of WoWs success.
It's sad how poorly people actually understand how industry works.
Sure i would like more choices, but anyone that thinks a success is bad for the industry, is just too opinionated to see clearly.
I see a lot of folks saying how great a sandbox game would be, and i always say the same thing, how do you or anyone know?
We have never had one. Not a modern one at any rate. Not a one since the good old days. Until someone makes one, we will never know.
And no, it is not a gamer problem, or people that like certain type games, we just have not had a "good" game made with open world, period. Each and every one has had major problems, from bugs to just horrible games, with terrible launches.
I sure hope that some day a decent example comes along, then we will see how an open world game does. Until then, it is just guessing that that type of game would make any difference at all in the end.
And for sure it is not the fault nor an excuse to get all heated up at the gamers that want to play a decent game, no matter what type it is.
A success bad for the industry? Naw, just for certain gamers, that are tired of what the Dev's are making is all.
Having played the Korean version I can tell you that aside from the combat differences the game is basically a themepark like TOR. Gorgeous game though, can't wait until the NA launch. Welcome to the monkey clan.
I don't like the way the game has turned out.....
But this is just, in the words of Charles Barkley, "tuurrrible"
Most people will be looking at second quarter numbers, knowing launches are always hyped. Actually, it's the second quarter or so where you can start to develop strong opinions about a game. It's been around for a few months, the hype has worn off, how does it stack up?
World of Warcraft did this, and had a stronger second quarter when it launched. People were addicted, they told friends, the content stayed fresh, etc. They then became the soulless leviathan that every MMO gamer hated (but most, like a heroin addiction or a homophobic televangelist, were loving it in secret.)
After the first month, they will see a sub drop. That's inevitable. The question is how they react to it.
Spot on OP. I have written numerous articles for another gaming site that saw this coming two years ago. The next 5-10 years will be mediocre success after mediocre success of ultra casual crap fest games.
I should feel bad and punish myself playing a bad game. Not a problem I tried enough bad MMO last year to compensate for at least 10 years of good games... like SWTOR.
I doubt I will be so lucky though.
TOR being successful will not hurt the genre. I think it's a good game that needs a few systems to make it a great game. When i first heard about the game and how it was gonna be more themepark than sandbox, i really didn't care that much. I was a lost pre-cu SWG drifter that has played many games, WOW being the most, so i was use to that type of gameplay.
Now since i have been playing TOR for over a month now, i stil think it's a good game, but i can clearly see some of the drawbacks and lack of certain systems that do affect the overall gameplay.
I just recieved a email from Bioware, wanting my feedback on how i think the game is doing and such. pretty sure most of you that are playing the game got that email as well. I thought this was a good chance to give some suggestions on what i think would make the game even better than it is.
PVE, class story and those quests are honestly for me the best ever. The planets are nice and big, but really don't bring the community together like they should. Those big cantina's should be a place for coming together and socializing with others on that server and having a place to hang out other than grouping up for just combat. I think they should add a entertainer profession, that could give out small stat increase's by watching dance's or playing music. Make those places come alive on all those planets.
I would also get rid of server types. Who needs all those different servers. You want to RP, PVE, PVP, that can be accomplished on one server.
For PVP, i would add the pvp system that pre-cu SWG had, the overt/covert system. I would still keep the instanced battegrounds for obtaining commendations to get pvp gear. I would have all the ranking systems and such. For open world pvp though, SWG system would be perfect. I would have it where you couldn't get pvp gear at all. I would give out pvp points, where if enough accumilated, you could go to a vendor and buy new titles and non stat SW things that wouldn't affect combat. New speeders and vehicles, at-st's and stuff like that.
I would make bases spawn on random planets, that needed to be won/held for a certain time. Whichever faction won and held the bases when time was up, that faction would get a slight stat increase and a lower vendor cost on all item's. When the bases respawned they would be in a totally different location on random planets again.
For faction imbalance, whichever faction had less people, i would spawn tough elite NPC's to even things out. The more actual players joined, those NPC's would start to disappear.
These are just a few things, i think, would make TOR a much better mmorpg and i don't think it would take a whole lot for Bioware to implement.
[mod edit] Failure does not encourage variety. If SW:Tor failed then there would be very little to no money being invested into MMO's the money would be invested somewhere else showing more profit (movies, tv, gold, bonds etc.) In fact If SW:Tor does well this will bring more investors to MMO's willing to take a chance on something new/different.
The OP should really think it through from a investors stand point maybe even research investnebrt trends rather then make blanket doom/gloom statesments because SW:Tor is not the sandbox game he wanted.
Agreed, SWTOR was not only dissapointing to me as an MMO experience but also its continued success is going to generate yet more clones, the next 5 years will be The attack of the Clones and ongoing Clone Wars.
Worse still anyone who does try to break out of this clone mould is going to struggle to find a publisher to push their game as it will be seen as "too risky".
Then I tried WoW and was disappointed with the mechanics of RPG combat yet again (Must face Target) I got used to it all, endured the torture of RPG style combat for the sake of gaming with other folks and played many MMOs after the demise of galaxies to find that one that just felt right to play. I even tried the FPS style MMos and they just seemed forced to say the least. Sad to say I have not found that perfect MMO. SWTOR almost had it with the combat, but the lack of freedom is a deal breaker. I'm starting to really think maybe MMOs are just not for me anymore.
Oh and can I say I agree with the OP. Games will get more and more simplistic and developers will get off on not having to put any real creativity into them or allow player expression knowing that folks will still shell out $15 per month for their games. “hey I can make a game that should be free to play and still charge fools monthly for this, and they pay it willingly oh for the lolols”
Agreed, SWTOR was not only dissapointing to me as an MMO experience but also its continued success is going to generate yet more clones, the next 5 years will be The attack of the Clones and ongoing Clone Wars.
Worse still anyone who does try to break out of this clone mould is going to struggle to find a publisher to push their game as it will be seen as "too risky".
It will take five years for any ToR copycat MMOs to come into existence. The four years and 364 days between now and then could be filled with all kinds of weird things that have nothing to do with ToR.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
OP you have started a war with this, Zit are popping all over the place.
on topic, While its true what you say, you will notice that a lot of the people coming to swtor are new to MMOs, they are just fans of SW logo. So to them its new and probably innovative, but you will see a bit of the hardcore fan base moving on, so just you know give it 6 months, it might improve it might not.
However I would like to add, when a game is released its a finished product, I mean it has bugs here and there and are patched for free, but the bugs in this game came from betas, a good chunk of them, and then they say that we are charging for content and patches and fixes. For 200mil this is truely a let down in the state it was launched.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Carl Sagan-
I am enjoying TOR, so I'll bite. You should check out No Reservations, specificially the Chicago episodes. You will see that McDonalds didn't kill quality hotdogs at all, they are in fact better than ever.
The problem with your analogy is that you seem to assume that, without Mcdonalds, all those hamburger people would have been hotdog connisseurs- they wouldn't have been. UO and EQ were not going to have 10 million subscribers if only WoW hadnt happened, the market for those games was, and is, niche. that means small market money- as in, no AAA graphics and sound and whatever. Personally, I dont think thats a terrible thing, because I dont think you have to have big money or huge numbers of players to have a great mmorpg.
EXACTLY.
If World of Warcraft had tanked when it came out, the MMO genre would have stayed a fringe niche and likely would not have had the same lognevity it's had these past 7+ years. For its time, vanilla WoW was a big risk. If it had failed and not overtaken EverQuest at the time, finding people willing to invest in the MMO genre long-term would have been a hell of a lot harder.
Failed games = lack of investment from venture capitalists = dead genre. A fair number of the games on this site wouldn't exist if enough games had failed in the early days of MMOs. Whether people here like it or not, WoW's success is why we still HAVE games to play, since people are willing to put millions on the line to get a game up and running. It showed investors that there is a market and that it should be explored.
So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.
Really got to love the Haters patting themselves on the back for just wanting to stop people having fun.
So if you like it STOP your messed up your making the gaming world a bad place.
If you hate it Spread that hate tell people that they have to stop playing, make them hate it too, or more game that they may like will be made and we cant have that.
Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.
If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.
Stating the obvious! I love it!
Sometimes when I read things on the internet I find myself saying "who are these people in the outside world?" Based on some of the replies in this thread I imagine folks I would not want to meet and have an intelligent discussion with.
I don't really see how suggesting that someone read the original OP before making baseless assertions about the topic is the same as implying that "I'm smarter than everyone...", but please, keep the pointless rhetoric coming if it's fun for you.
Hahaha
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.