From what I glanced, it seems that quite a lot of people read the OP and got the gist of it, only a number of those people just didn't agree with the point he wanted to make, just like there were others that did agree.
I'm gonna repost my former comment on the OP, since I didn't really get a reply of him on the points I made as a counterpoint.
Originally posted by smh_alot
Aaw man, this is way too black & white thinking for my taste. Although I admit that there are probably quite some people who think like that and that's the reason they keep bashing TOR and BW so much even if they're not playing it at all (besides ofc being bored and forums the main means of entertainment usage for their spare time )
But use your common sense: one doesn't exclude the other. Look at this year: the majority of MMO's that come out this year are no traditional themepark MMO's at all, and they're pretty solid looking titles as well. Like any market, there's room for competition if the products are compelling enough, no particular need for a whole market to fail and burn for varied products to emerge, as clearly shown for MMO's this year and next.
... unless you want to tell me that MMO's like GW2, TSW, ArcheAge, Firefall, TERA, Blade&Soul, Planetside 2 and later on Copernicus, World of Darkness, Undead Labs' zombie MMO, Continent of the Ninth, Salem, EQ Next and so on is not the variety of choices you're looking for?
So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.
Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.
If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.
Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.
I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.
Uusually created for th love of the genre, not the dollar bill. People who develope games to sell, usually sell shallow, uninspired carbon copies of games that have alreat been released.
Did you know Star Trek Online has Companions ?
As good as everything has been done in some form, one way or the other, especially if a genre exists for a while already.
Originally posted by Kalmarth So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.
Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.
If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.
Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.
I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.
The OP has already been proven wrong by reality, his argument caught up by actual facts. Why are you only picking out posts where you can resort to insulting other posters, instead of actually contributing constructively to the discussion that's being held? Read my other post, and let's see what you have to reply on it, now that'd be a more concrete contribution to the discussion instead of resorting to overused analogies and ad hominems >.>
So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.
Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.
If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.
Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.
I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.
However his assertion that McDonald's success keeps better retraunts from opening is flawed.
Too many posts to reply directly to, so let me clarify my major points.
1) I don't -hate- the theme park style of game. I subbed to WoW for a good 3 years and enjoyed my time there. It's not my favorite MMO, however, that title belongs to FFXI.
2) I don't want theme parks to stop being made, period. I do however want more variety. There are enough theme parks out there right now and in development that I have no qualms saying to the theme park fans, you HAVE your games, give US a turn for once.
3) The MMORPG genre is already a success in the minds of investors. To the people saying investors will ignore MMORPGs if SWTOR fails, that's simply not true. There are still too many profitable games out there. If, however, a theme park game with that kind of budget and recognition fails, it may finally make investors realize that the way to profit is to butt out and let game developers, who know MORE about what people want to play, make the games.
4) Someone talked about how the hamburger connoisseurs wouldn't necessarily be hot dog lovers if the hamburger stands never opened. You're right, however, who's to say that the same people addicted to hamburgers wouldn't love a taco more? Wouldn't love a REALLY GOOD hot dog? We will never find out.
5) AAA games aren't being made as a labor of love anymore. The attitude of the average developer used to be 'if I create a good product, and a great experience, people will buy it, and I will make money'. The attitude of the average developer now is: 'How can I generate the most money, with the least amount of effort? How can I exploit the market for my own benefit? How can I heard these sheep (gamers) into MY pen so I can shear the wool off of them?' It's a complete paradigm shift, and they are getting away with it, because as end users, we are allowing it.
6) Here's some food for thought. As gamers, do we benefit from the genre being mainstream? Do we truly benefit from our entertainment being used as a medium to line pockets? I wonder. Big budget movies don't often win the Academy Award. If our genre stays 'fringe' or 'niche', who's to say that doesn't actually result in better games?
So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.
Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.
If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.
Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.
I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.
However his assertion that McDonald's success keeps better retraunts from opening is flawed.
actually, it doesn't because everytime a mccdonalds opens, it brings property value down, which in turns cripples the encomy of an area and makes it a low income region with in a block of it .
?? restraunts are opened in commercially zoned areas, so there are rarely houses within a block of McDonalds. In my town, there is a nice BBQ restraunt across the street from a McDonalds.
5) AAA games aren't being made as a labor of love anymore.
They never were. That's what people don't seem to understand.
From a company standopint, MMOs have ALWAYS been about profit, since day one. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. Sure, the devs might like the genre and might want a particular game style, but they also want to put food on the table and pay their bills. You can't do that if your game dies and doesn't make any money.
It's why the early games were "harder". They weren't actually harder at all -- the devs just put in artificial road blocks to deliberately make things more tedious so they'd take longer or they'd put in harsher penalties so you'd play longer and they'd get paid for another month.
3) The MMORPG genre is already a success in the minds of investors. To the people saying investors will ignore MMORPGs if SWTOR fails, that's simply not true. There are still too many profitable games out there. If, however, a theme park game with that kind of budget and recognition fails, it may finally make investors realize that the way to profit is to butt out and let game developers, who know MORE about what people want to play, make the games.
Besides the very subjective 'game developers who know MORE about what ppl want to play' - I guess you mean ppl like you here, not all MMO gamers in general - but whether TOR is a success or not, you're ALREADY getting the games that you prefer.
That is, for every MMO gamer that doesn't like WoW type themepark MMO's (anymore), there's ALREADY a whole bunch of MMO's upcoming that ain't like that: GW2, TSW, Firefall, Planetside 2, ArcheAge, Copernicus, World of Darkness, Defiance, Undead Labs' sandbox zombie MMO etc etc.
Those are ALREADY being made and some of those arriving this year. Which invalidates your whole point: TOR doesn't need to fail for other type of good MMO's, non-WoW like, to be developed. In fact, TOR failing or succeeding would only have impact for games that are released over 4-5 years. The games that I mentioned and that are different already appear this year or the next 2-3 years.
Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.
I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.
The OP and this post is a classic case where people don't know how the market actually works.
It is a bit amazing since evidence to the contrary is done on a daily basis.
'Success breeds innovation'.
Iphone / Ipod is a recent case where the above statement was proved to be true.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
So anyone that like the game and is having fun is bringing the industry down, while the haters are looking forward to a bright future and fighting to make the world a better place.
Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.
If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.
Well its good and bad, GW2 will do fine reguardless as long as they deliver half of what they have shown. So to me The SWTOR fanatics need to stay out of my hair and off the GW2 official forums begging for Raid content and Loot progression tables, so I mean if SWTOR can actually hold up a sub number anywhere near 600k to one million that takes care of thigs on that side for me. Even if they can just keep it up for 6 months or so would be enough. Honestly I can't believe in my rational mind that SWTOR can sustain numbers like that, I just think its cheaply made and no better than some FTP games I have been on, but Shrug doesn't effect me. It wont effect GW2 development, World Of Darkness, they will still make Sandbox mmorpgs so all in all the world will not end one way or another.
Well its good and bad, GW2 will do fine reguardless as long as they deliver half of what they have shown. So to me The SWTOR fanatics need to stay out of my hair and off the GW2 official forums begging for Raid content and Loot progression tables, so I mean if SWTOR can actually hold up a sub number anywhere near 600k to one million that takes care of thigs on that side for me. Even if they can just keep it up for 6 months or so would be enough. Honestly I can't believe in my rational mind that SWTOR can sustain numbers like that, I just think its cheaply made and no better than some FTP games I have been on, but Shrug doesn't effect me. It wont effect GW2 development, World Of Darkness, they will still make Sandbox mmorpgs so all in all the world will not end one way or another.
Do as I say, and not as I do eh?
You have been in the TOR forums on several occasions that I know of carrying on about this game, but HELL NO dont someone post any ideas contrary to yours. Gotta shake my head at you.
As far as the OP....yes we know the sandbox fanbase is unhappy. We have only heard about it daily for how many years now? To top it off the sandbox crowd here attacks every themepark fan, and MMORPG.com bans us for responding to the taunts, and opposed to enforcing the TOS of this site.
I quit MMO gaming when I left EQ in 06, and had no intention on returning to MMOs. I much prefer consoles for numerous reasons these days vs any type of PC game.
However, when a game is made that I wanna play, I sure as Hell am going to play it. You say we are to blame for your lack of games. I say you guys are to blame for my bleeding eyes caused by the numerous posts complaining about this game for over a yr now.
I have really liked 2 MMOs in my lifetime....EQ and TOR. Both games have been attacked by the sandbox crowd, so you will have to pardon me if my "I dont give a damn about your plight" violin plays in the background. I thought the folks tearing up SOE boxes after NGE hit was sad, as us EQers didnt do a damn thing to them. EQ and EQ2 got off easy compared to this time around.
The bottom line is if you guys were willing to support the sandbox titles being made, then more would be announced. Games like Rysom should of never been forced into bankruptcy, and dont even get me started on Uncle Owen wars. Even after the NGE, it was still a "sandpark" that so many claim they would settle for, yet you guys wouldnt cut that game any slack for the life of ya. If you wanna point the finger at someone, then I would suggest pointing at those that supposedly support the sandbox genre, and yet are too cheap to shell out 15 or 30 per month.
For those that wanna spout about EVE.....I will let ya in on a little secret: without allowing folks to trade money for game time, the one success story for sandboxes would look worse. Which isnt a knock on CCP....I think it is a brilliant idea, and helps to limit the secondary market.
Like my sig says.....you guys want premium gaming on a budget. I dont ever see general gamers supporting FFA PVP, Uncle Owen, nor paying so they can generate their own PVE content. I think Austin Powers once mentioned something about wanting a gold toilet, and it not being in the cards. Dreams are nice, but bitching cause they arent reality, nor have a chance to become reality, is an unhealthy waste of time IMO. Seeing as it is your time though, feel free to continue these postings, just as folks like myself will feel free to buy whatever games they wish.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Neither do I. I think it's the worst form of crap the music industry has ever put out. That's why I don't buy it and continue to listen to the music I do like rather than gripe about the state of the music industry on message boards. Gamers need to learn how to do this. The MMO world won't come to an end just because TOR is successful. You(OP and others like him) still have a lot of new titles coming out this year that are nothing like TOR. How about spending your free time propping those games up instead of griping on the TOR forums? Just a thought.
Usually if i dislike something i wan't it to die. That is how i roll. Who cares if other millions are enjoying what i hate? i never bat an eye lid when roles are reversed.
Don't look at me like that..haven't you seen a hypocrite before?
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
"The problem with the 'hater' vs 'fanboy' debacle is that fanboys tend to look at it from a selfish perspective. THEY are having fun, so consequently the game is great..."
Nail on the head my friends, your right, I could care less if you hate the game I love to play, after all I am playing for my selfish personal needs, not to play to make something popular so it makes you happy. LOL what kind of world do you think you live in? You of course go on to explain that fan boys don't understand your distance for the game they love, but in turn they don't understand your rage against that game they love.
What you don't understand thou is , your best way to help a game fail is not talk about it, yet you will continue to do so and put that product in the fore-front, getting those that really never thought about trying it to try it. For your rage will seem like blind hatered and you will give the fans the means to spread the love of their game. In the end, your hurting your cause more then if you just left it alone. But hey, keep going, sooner or later some other title will rage you into another frenzy and the game your raged on previously will have no more meaning.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
"As a fan of SWTOR, do you feel that your playstyle and games that suit you should be the only games being made?"
That's the attitude of SWTOR fanboys, who don't realize that their fun comes (indirectly) at the expense of others, and then wonder why those others are flaming their game on the forums.
Show me ONE forum member that think the only types of mmos being made should be SWTOR. I'll give you a hint: there aren't any. I think a lot of this stuff exists only in your mind.
You know you're actually right. Whilst I agree with the sentiment of the OP.. actually the majority of people on forums hate SWTOR (imo of course).
It does seem to me idiotic the lengths that 'fanboys' will go to defend their game.. never clear why they aren't playing.. but there is equal stupidity from some of the 'haters'. In any case I never have understodd the argument that haters should just shut up and play something else. We are trying to warn others about the game - thats the whole point of reviews and discussions about the game.
However, all this is probably pointless. The forum wars between haters and fanboys really is inconsequential as most players dont trawl through these places.
The fanboys aren't really to blame for the state of MMO's. Unfortunately the MMO industry is a high risk market and devs and investors feel more secure copying a format that is proven successful. This works in similar industries, but the MMO is a different animal. The playerbase, desperate for something to play, flocks to the new game only to leave in droves later. Unfortunately the only solution is for a developer to take a risk and do something different... and we need to support them all the way when they do so. My hope is that GW2 will achieve this.. only time will tell.
"The problem with the 'hater' vs 'fanboy' debacle is that fanboys tend to look at it from a selfish perspective. THEY are having fun, so consequently the game is great..."
Nail on the head my friends, your right, I could care less if you hate the game I love to play, after all I am playing for my selfish personal needs, not to play to make something popular so it makes you happy. LOL what kind of world do you think you live in? You of course go on to explain that fan boys don't understand your distance for the game they love, but in turn they don't understand your rage against that game they love.
What you don't understand thou is , your best way to help a game fail is not talk about it, yet you will continue to do so and put that product in the fore-front, getting those that really never thought about trying it to try it. For your rage will seem like blind hatered and you will give the fans the means to spread the love of their game. In the end, your hurting your cause more then if you just left it alone. But hey, keep going, sooner or later some other title will rage you into another frenzy and the game your raged on previously will have no more meaning.
I was going to say something of similar sentiment.
I look at the NUMEROUS lengthy arguments and testaments of a small handful of individuals, compare it with the meager amount of people actually logged onto MMORPG.com, and I have to wonder how unhappy someone has to be to spend so much personal energy on the MMORPG.com forums in the hopes of convincing a whole whopping 70 site users to be swayed to their opinion (if even that many bother to actually visit this thread) that SWTOR IS THE DEVIL!!! OH THE HUMANITY OF IT ALL! IT IS THE EPITOME OF MEDIOCRITY! BLAST THOSE AMERICAN FANBOIS! BLAST THEM ALL TO HELL!!!
Seriously? Most people I know don't even know MMORPG.com exists, and even less care. They're busy actually playing games instead of sitting here wasting time complaining to an incredibly small audience that will most likely forget that this thread exists in an hour or so, if even that long.
"Rise up everyone and quit playing what you enjoy and what fits you to save me..."
Am I doing it right?
No. Try actually reading and comprehending the thread and then reply.
OP, I commend and agree with the sentiment of your thread, but I'm thinking your points will be swooshing over the heads of most people that come to it. Reading isn't a strong suit, in the US at least.
Ah yes, the "I'm smarter than everyone else and therefore have better taste" argument. A classic, certainly.
I don't really see how suggesting that someone read the original OP before making baseless assertions about the topic is the same as implying that "I'm smarter than everyone...", but please, keep the pointless rhetoric coming if it's fun for you.
Then clarify what you meant by "I'm thinking your points will be swooshing over the heads of most people" because it reads like you think most people won't be smart enough to understand what he's saying.
The problem with the 'hater' vs 'fanboy' debacle is that fanboys tend to look at it from a selfish perspective. THEY are having fun, so consequently the game is great, and they wonder why everyone can't, or does not want to see how great the game is. Meanwhile, the haters are looking at it from a broader perspective of what a successful SWTOR means.
Are they? Or are the haters doing the exact same thing as the fanbois from the opposite angle? All depends what side of the fence you're on.
Personally, I think SWTOR is flawed, but overall it's enjoyable, so I'm still subbed to it. I've never claimed it's the best game ever, or that it doesn't have it's issues.
I don't care who else hates it, or who loves it. I find ardent defenders as irritating as those who crusade against any game.
I want a scalable UI, some more fluff stuff to do, and the more annoying bugs to be squished. I would dearly love the return of 'unite to chestpiece' and I think the introduction of the Fleets was a mistake. Wouldn't say no to more ambient effects as well.
Those posting that the game is flawless cause another problem, they ignore improvements that could (should) be made in favor of claiming everything is dandy. 'Haters' are even less constructive, claiming the only solution is to rip it up and start over...as a sandbox.
SWTOR doing well, if it continues to evolve, should not be a problem for the industry. If it doesn't evolve and still racks up the subs, well then we can all say the masses are asses and have done with it.
If SWTOR had failed, no one would invest in AAA MMOs anymore, the risk would be too great. This year's new titles, GW2, TERA, ArcheAge, TSW, etc, would the last of the AAA MMOs.
Investors don't care about game design, they care about profits and if SWTOR, which didn't take risks, couldn't turn a profit they would just walk away from MMOs completely.
It is the game companies themselves that aren't innovating, not the investors (who won't even know the difference between WoW and Darkfall, an MMO is an MMO right?).
So yes, haters are gonna hate. Because the MMORPG industry has proven to be the only industry where consumers seem to defy logic by choosing to reject the opportuntiy for variety and choices, and instead imbracing the factory-assembled 'checklist of fun' that is being conveyed out the door again and again.
Unacceptable.
It's ok, a majority of people just like a different type of gameplay from you. No need to get yourself all worked up about it
Also, there's still plenty of variety in the market. There are 2, coming on 4 good modern sandboxes on the market at the moment - EVE, Darkfall, Mortal Online and Perpetuum Online.
The illusion you're labouring under is that the new, big money coming into MMOs is being "stolen" (as it were) from other, potentially good MMOs that might have come out. This isn't right, the only reason that money is going into the industry is because of the success of things like WoW and SWTOR. It's "earmarked" for these kinds of big, themepark games, because it's been found that that's what a majority of people like. The money that's now going into making them would previously have gone into making some widget or some other investment FOTM, not into making the "quality MMOs" you're hankering after.
Comments
I'm gonna repost my former comment on the OP, since I didn't really get a reply of him on the points I made as a counterpoint.
Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.
I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.
Uusually created for th love of the genre, not the dollar bill. People who develope games to sell, usually sell shallow, uninspired carbon copies of games that have alreat been released.
Did you know Star Trek Online has Companions ?
As good as everything has been done in some form, one way or the other, especially if a genre exists for a while already.Pretty much. That seems to be the OP in a nutshell.
If you like the game, you're an idiot who is ruining MMOs. If you hate it, you're the virtuous elite intellectual and paragon of gaming that is fighting the glorious fight for MMOs everywhere.
Christ some of you are truly clueless, really. He's already reiterated that he's not implying that "themeparks" are bad, or that they should be stopped en mass, he's merely saying that the mainstream success of them has left those of us who enjoy more "sandbox-oriented" games high and dry in comparison - And he'd be right. Sure, maybe "themeparks" are more popular, but McDonalds is also one of the most successful fast food chains in the entire world and what they serve shouldn't even legally be classified as food. I could give many other examples but I think that get's the point across well enough.
I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp (or accept) the concept of wanting more variety. Turn your defensive modes off for a second, re-read the original OP, and think about it. Variety is a good thing for the genre, not a negative.
The OP has already been proven wrong by reality, his argument caught up by actual facts. Why are you only picking out posts where you can resort to insulting other posters, instead of actually contributing constructively to the discussion that's being held? Read my other post, and let's see what you have to reply on it, now that'd be a more concrete contribution to the discussion instead of resorting to overused analogies and ad hominems >.>However his assertion that McDonald's success keeps better retraunts from opening is flawed.
Too many posts to reply directly to, so let me clarify my major points.
1) I don't -hate- the theme park style of game. I subbed to WoW for a good 3 years and enjoyed my time there. It's not my favorite MMO, however, that title belongs to FFXI.
2) I don't want theme parks to stop being made, period. I do however want more variety. There are enough theme parks out there right now and in development that I have no qualms saying to the theme park fans, you HAVE your games, give US a turn for once.
3) The MMORPG genre is already a success in the minds of investors. To the people saying investors will ignore MMORPGs if SWTOR fails, that's simply not true. There are still too many profitable games out there. If, however, a theme park game with that kind of budget and recognition fails, it may finally make investors realize that the way to profit is to butt out and let game developers, who know MORE about what people want to play, make the games.
4) Someone talked about how the hamburger connoisseurs wouldn't necessarily be hot dog lovers if the hamburger stands never opened. You're right, however, who's to say that the same people addicted to hamburgers wouldn't love a taco more? Wouldn't love a REALLY GOOD hot dog? We will never find out.
5) AAA games aren't being made as a labor of love anymore. The attitude of the average developer used to be 'if I create a good product, and a great experience, people will buy it, and I will make money'. The attitude of the average developer now is: 'How can I generate the most money, with the least amount of effort? How can I exploit the market for my own benefit? How can I heard these sheep (gamers) into MY pen so I can shear the wool off of them?' It's a complete paradigm shift, and they are getting away with it, because as end users, we are allowing it.
6) Here's some food for thought. As gamers, do we benefit from the genre being mainstream? Do we truly benefit from our entertainment being used as a medium to line pockets? I wonder. Big budget movies don't often win the Academy Award. If our genre stays 'fringe' or 'niche', who's to say that doesn't actually result in better games?
My blog:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Strayfe/
?? restraunts are opened in commercially zoned areas, so there are rarely houses within a block of McDonalds. In my town, there is a nice BBQ restraunt across the street from a McDonalds.
They never were. That's what people don't seem to understand.
From a company standopint, MMOs have ALWAYS been about profit, since day one. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. Sure, the devs might like the genre and might want a particular game style, but they also want to put food on the table and pay their bills. You can't do that if your game dies and doesn't make any money.
It's why the early games were "harder". They weren't actually harder at all -- the devs just put in artificial road blocks to deliberately make things more tedious so they'd take longer or they'd put in harsher penalties so you'd play longer and they'd get paid for another month.
Besides the very subjective 'game developers who know MORE about what ppl want to play' - I guess you mean ppl like you here, not all MMO gamers in general - but whether TOR is a success or not, you're ALREADY getting the games that you prefer.
That is, for every MMO gamer that doesn't like WoW type themepark MMO's (anymore), there's ALREADY a whole bunch of MMO's upcoming that ain't like that: GW2, TSW, Firefall, Planetside 2, ArcheAge, Copernicus, World of Darkness, Defiance, Undead Labs' sandbox zombie MMO etc etc.
Those are ALREADY being made and some of those arriving this year. Which invalidates your whole point: TOR doesn't need to fail for other type of good MMO's, non-WoW like, to be developed. In fact, TOR failing or succeeding would only have impact for games that are released over 4-5 years. The games that I mentioned and that are different already appear this year or the next 2-3 years.The OP and this post is a classic case where people don't know how the market actually works.
It is a bit amazing since evidence to the contrary is done on a daily basis.
'Success breeds innovation'.
Iphone / Ipod is a recent case where the above statement was proved to be true.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Bingo!
Well its good and bad, GW2 will do fine reguardless as long as they deliver half of what they have shown. So to me The SWTOR fanatics need to stay out of my hair and off the GW2 official forums begging for Raid content and Loot progression tables, so I mean if SWTOR can actually hold up a sub number anywhere near 600k to one million that takes care of thigs on that side for me. Even if they can just keep it up for 6 months or so would be enough. Honestly I can't believe in my rational mind that SWTOR can sustain numbers like that, I just think its cheaply made and no better than some FTP games I have been on, but Shrug doesn't effect me. It wont effect GW2 development, World Of Darkness, they will still make Sandbox mmorpgs so all in all the world will not end one way or another.
Do as I say, and not as I do eh?
You have been in the TOR forums on several occasions that I know of carrying on about this game, but HELL NO dont someone post any ideas contrary to yours. Gotta shake my head at you.
As far as the OP....yes we know the sandbox fanbase is unhappy. We have only heard about it daily for how many years now? To top it off the sandbox crowd here attacks every themepark fan, and MMORPG.com bans us for responding to the taunts, and opposed to enforcing the TOS of this site.
I quit MMO gaming when I left EQ in 06, and had no intention on returning to MMOs. I much prefer consoles for numerous reasons these days vs any type of PC game.
However, when a game is made that I wanna play, I sure as Hell am going to play it. You say we are to blame for your lack of games. I say you guys are to blame for my bleeding eyes caused by the numerous posts complaining about this game for over a yr now.
I have really liked 2 MMOs in my lifetime....EQ and TOR. Both games have been attacked by the sandbox crowd, so you will have to pardon me if my "I dont give a damn about your plight" violin plays in the background. I thought the folks tearing up SOE boxes after NGE hit was sad, as us EQers didnt do a damn thing to them. EQ and EQ2 got off easy compared to this time around.
The bottom line is if you guys were willing to support the sandbox titles being made, then more would be announced. Games like Rysom should of never been forced into bankruptcy, and dont even get me started on Uncle Owen wars. Even after the NGE, it was still a "sandpark" that so many claim they would settle for, yet you guys wouldnt cut that game any slack for the life of ya. If you wanna point the finger at someone, then I would suggest pointing at those that supposedly support the sandbox genre, and yet are too cheap to shell out 15 or 30 per month.
For those that wanna spout about EVE.....I will let ya in on a little secret: without allowing folks to trade money for game time, the one success story for sandboxes would look worse. Which isnt a knock on CCP....I think it is a brilliant idea, and helps to limit the secondary market.
Like my sig says.....you guys want premium gaming on a budget. I dont ever see general gamers supporting FFA PVP, Uncle Owen, nor paying so they can generate their own PVE content. I think Austin Powers once mentioned something about wanting a gold toilet, and it not being in the cards. Dreams are nice, but bitching cause they arent reality, nor have a chance to become reality, is an unhealthy waste of time IMO. Seeing as it is your time though, feel free to continue these postings, just as folks like myself will feel free to buy whatever games they wish.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Neither do I. I think it's the worst form of crap the music industry has ever put out. That's why I don't buy it and continue to listen to the music I do like rather than gripe about the state of the music industry on message boards. Gamers need to learn how to do this. The MMO world won't come to an end just because TOR is successful. You(OP and others like him) still have a lot of new titles coming out this year that are nothing like TOR. How about spending your free time propping those games up instead of griping on the TOR forums? Just a thought.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Usually if i dislike something i wan't it to die. That is how i roll. Who cares if other millions are enjoying what i hate? i never bat an eye lid when roles are reversed.
Don't look at me like that..haven't you seen a hypocrite before?
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
Original post from op.
"The problem with the 'hater' vs 'fanboy' debacle is that fanboys tend to look at it from a selfish perspective. THEY are having fun, so consequently the game is great..."
Nail on the head my friends, your right, I could care less if you hate the game I love to play, after all I am playing for my selfish personal needs, not to play to make something popular so it makes you happy. LOL what kind of world do you think you live in? You of course go on to explain that fan boys don't understand your distance for the game they love, but in turn they don't understand your rage against that game they love.
What you don't understand thou is , your best way to help a game fail is not talk about it, yet you will continue to do so and put that product in the fore-front, getting those that really never thought about trying it to try it. For your rage will seem like blind hatered and you will give the fans the means to spread the love of their game. In the end, your hurting your cause more then if you just left it alone. But hey, keep going, sooner or later some other title will rage you into another frenzy and the game your raged on previously will have no more meaning.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
You know you're actually right. Whilst I agree with the sentiment of the OP.. actually the majority of people on forums hate SWTOR (imo of course).
It does seem to me idiotic the lengths that 'fanboys' will go to defend their game.. never clear why they aren't playing.. but there is equal stupidity from some of the 'haters'. In any case I never have understodd the argument that haters should just shut up and play something else. We are trying to warn others about the game - thats the whole point of reviews and discussions about the game.
However, all this is probably pointless. The forum wars between haters and fanboys really is inconsequential as most players dont trawl through these places.
The fanboys aren't really to blame for the state of MMO's. Unfortunately the MMO industry is a high risk market and devs and investors feel more secure copying a format that is proven successful. This works in similar industries, but the MMO is a different animal. The playerbase, desperate for something to play, flocks to the new game only to leave in droves later. Unfortunately the only solution is for a developer to take a risk and do something different... and we need to support them all the way when they do so. My hope is that GW2 will achieve this.. only time will tell.
I was going to say something of similar sentiment.
I look at the NUMEROUS lengthy arguments and testaments of a small handful of individuals, compare it with the meager amount of people actually logged onto MMORPG.com, and I have to wonder how unhappy someone has to be to spend so much personal energy on the MMORPG.com forums in the hopes of convincing a whole whopping 70 site users to be swayed to their opinion (if even that many bother to actually visit this thread) that SWTOR IS THE DEVIL!!! OH THE HUMANITY OF IT ALL! IT IS THE EPITOME OF MEDIOCRITY! BLAST THOSE AMERICAN FANBOIS! BLAST THEM ALL TO HELL!!!
Seriously? Most people I know don't even know MMORPG.com exists, and even less care. They're busy actually playing games instead of sitting here wasting time complaining to an incredibly small audience that will most likely forget that this thread exists in an hour or so, if even that long.
Then clarify what you meant by "I'm thinking your points will be swooshing over the heads of most people" because it reads like you think most people won't be smart enough to understand what he's saying.
Are they? Or are the haters doing the exact same thing as the fanbois from the opposite angle? All depends what side of the fence you're on.
Personally, I think SWTOR is flawed, but overall it's enjoyable, so I'm still subbed to it. I've never claimed it's the best game ever, or that it doesn't have it's issues.
I don't care who else hates it, or who loves it. I find ardent defenders as irritating as those who crusade against any game.
I want a scalable UI, some more fluff stuff to do, and the more annoying bugs to be squished. I would dearly love the return of 'unite to chestpiece' and I think the introduction of the Fleets was a mistake. Wouldn't say no to more ambient effects as well.
Those posting that the game is flawless cause another problem, they ignore improvements that could (should) be made in favor of claiming everything is dandy. 'Haters' are even less constructive, claiming the only solution is to rip it up and start over...as a sandbox.
SWTOR doing well, if it continues to evolve, should not be a problem for the industry. If it doesn't evolve and still racks up the subs, well then we can all say the masses are asses and have done with it.
To the OP...
If SWTOR had failed, no one would invest in AAA MMOs anymore, the risk would be too great. This year's new titles, GW2, TERA, ArcheAge, TSW, etc, would the last of the AAA MMOs.
Investors don't care about game design, they care about profits and if SWTOR, which didn't take risks, couldn't turn a profit they would just walk away from MMOs completely.
It is the game companies themselves that aren't innovating, not the investors (who won't even know the difference between WoW and Darkfall, an MMO is an MMO right?).
It's ok, a majority of people just like a different type of gameplay from you. No need to get yourself all worked up about it
Also, there's still plenty of variety in the market. There are 2, coming on 4 good modern sandboxes on the market at the moment - EVE, Darkfall, Mortal Online and Perpetuum Online.
The illusion you're labouring under is that the new, big money coming into MMOs is being "stolen" (as it were) from other, potentially good MMOs that might have come out. This isn't right, the only reason that money is going into the industry is because of the success of things like WoW and SWTOR. It's "earmarked" for these kinds of big, themepark games, because it's been found that that's what a majority of people like. The money that's now going into making them would previously have gone into making some widget or some other investment FOTM, not into making the "quality MMOs" you're hankering after.