YES MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS, WE MUST SAVE THE MMO!
To arms, wield your baseball bats, smash the vile SWTOR serves, threaten to vile investors of theme park MMOs, and bask in the holy glory that is SANDBOX MMOS!
Sorry but if we want an MMO that is different from SWTOR, plenty of alternatives did come out in the past and are coming out, and they haven't been big hits. If there is a sandbox MMO considered better by the masses then theme park mmos, it will succeed on its own, regardless of how well SWTOR does.
Originally posted by Gylfi heh i wish the world was all cheeries and blossoms like you picture it, a utopical world where creativity is supposed to be good business, and like it's encouraged and financed because it's good for the evolution of human compassion. those who make decisions(those who invest) see that WoW is the most succesful game, so they tell developers to copy and simplify it, because the simpler it is the more people will it cater to. It's easy as that. Every MMO since WoW has been like that, it shows this simple parable that can maybe be drawn into a graph. They are simpler and simpler games that copy the same WoW basis. It's just a progressive dumbing down. That's the law of marketing, deal with it. People should be insane, when they see a succesful game, to go try and think up a new idea and concept of virtual world from zero. When such risk-taking initiative is like a black hole, you dunno what may happen, it's completely a jump in the blank. as long as "doing the safe thing" is more convenient, why should people experiment? As long as your home is source of all you could ever need, why should you go explore new worlds?
Just because the genre is progressing in a direction that you don't like, it doesn't mean the progression isn't happening. Also, progressively dumbing down mmorpg is not a law of marketing.
I can think of three upcoming games that are a distinct departure from the 'WoW' model, and yet they are still MMORPG. Dominus, WildStar and The Secret World. Innovation is happening. That doesn't mean it's happening for you though...it's happening for the industry.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"THEY are having fun, so consequently the game is great, and they wonder why everyone can't, or does not want to see how great the game is. Meanwhile, the haters are looking at it from a broader perspective of what a successful SWTOR means."
So wait, people who like the game are selfish, and people who hate the game are Zen masters of the MMO arts?
That right there is when I stopped reading your garbage post...
HE has a point, a huge one.
You have fun in your game, but TOR is harming virtuality and evolution of the genre, with its single player attitude and its "if you like WoW, you'll feel right at home with TOR". How can you not see that a game that's more of a single player game harms the genre that is supposed to be about the opposite values, virtuality and persistancy? MMO's are not about personal and individualistic stories, noway! They are about living in a community, sharing its problems, facing its economical and political problems simulateneously. EVE ONLINE does good to the genre because it simulates society and economy and persistancy and simulates politics which results may only give you new perspective on our little planet's political situation. While a game like TOR will never make you think things over, it's supposed to put your mind at sleep.
It's objectively, unbiasedly harmful to the genre. And you having fun ignores this, because all you care about is your selfish fun.
And you're even more selfish because your "fun" will soon be over, you'll get tired of TOR, you'll screw TOR over just as quickly. You don't care about anything and your fun comes and goes with a whims. Because all you care is your shallow concept of carnal fun.
Instead WE hardcore people care about the evolution of the genre, we wanna see it cluttering with new concepts of virtuality, experimentations, new frontiers of dynamic worlds explored, games that innovate, games entirely different from WoW, games without levels, without skills, without NPCs, where players control everythingt, hell i want to see a game without violence, without kill counts, i hate killing things i hate violence, i want a PvP that's about debating duels. And incidentally we have fun when we discover new things, our fun is more bent on the pleasure of discovery, of research rather than pure gratuitous entertainment. You have shallow casual fun all the while TOR is a conservative game which success will not encourage innovation. And you don't give a damn, because all you care about is fun.
Yes, Variety is a good thing, and im sure we all welcome it, however, in a competitive industry like this, its all about surviva of the fittest.
(With the exception of EVE, but Eve is unique) EVERY Sandbox MMO ever released has failed hard, in comparison to the Themeparks released at the same time.
This is down to a number of factors -
Sandbox gamers are a niche crowd, and therefore there isnt as big of a market for a sandbox game.
Sandbox fans are a pain in the ass! They always want every feature they can conceive of included in the game, and will always exploit any bug to the max and basically cheat to win. Just look at Darkfall. Yes, the devs should have fixed the bugs, but it wouldnt be half as much of a problem if the player base wasnt so intent on cheating.
All the sandboxes I have seen are buggy peices of crap and dont deserve success because they are just not good enough to compete in the mainstream market
The problem investors have, is if they put huge amounts of money into making a sandbox game that IS good enough to compete, not enough people will play it to make it profitable because there just arent that many sandbox fans. If 95% of MMO players prefer themeparks, and 5% want sandboxes, which way do you think the money is going to go? (numbers pulled out of my ass)
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
I see alot of posts back and forth about a game is "2 months on the market" I work in an industry where we tarket "Market Shares" from competitiors it doesn't mean the company I work for wants to be like our competitiors but if there is market share we can grap 2% or 10% from to generate revenue, and then move in our own direction with "cash". Then we do it. I don't know what Bioware 5 year plan is for TOR. They haven't defined a clear line which leaves alot of people just to run around like chicken little on either side of the fence.
Personnely I would like to see TOR move to less themeparkish after level 50. As those levels at (end game) create a ton of boredom from people with things to do. Dropping the style to more of sandbox style would open and as well tick off a whole new crowd of people.
In closing my point is simple : If BW targeted to achieve roughly 10-15% of WOW Market share to generate revenue then they achieved first step of thier goal. Now it would be stupid to run around saying "We want 10% of your market' as it broadcasts corperate targets and the non stop whining on the forums scream wow clone already it would be insane, and the last thing I do in my indusrty is pick of the phone and call my competition and say "I am going after 10% of your customers because I need to generate revenue to launch my next thing that I have already planned and need money for" Because then my competition would shift gears and do everything to prevent it. When you start with 0% of the market and get 10% that is huge no matter how you look at it.
I will wait till I get better feel of the direction of TOR, but because I faith they will do something I may like, so they get my money for now, when I feel they aren't going direction I want I will stop paying and play more xbox.
It would have been "good" for the industry in such a way that it could even appear "bad" to some people.. If SWTOR failed miserably causing a financial ripple to burst through Bioware or even get EA's attention, I am positive that P2P MMO's would have died immediately.. Some people are fine with it, and others would only scowl..
In the industry now, you cannot be sure as to what would profit and for how long. People scream how they want sandboxes blah blah.. But shake my head whenever I hear someone complain about "leveling too slow" in themepark games.. Face it, THIS is what our genre is now.. Nothing more, nothing less..
Some people hate it, but obviously more people like it and that's all that matters right?
I've said it before, we had our chance to speak up about the future.. We buried plenty of indie games because they weren't "like AAA P2P games" although they ATTEMPTED to drive the industry in a different direction, but we didn't care.. We spent our money on WoW, Rift, WAR, AION and SWTOR, and that's what investors see..
heh i wish the world was all cheeries and blossoms like you picture it, a utopical world where creativity is supposed to be good business, and like it's encouraged and financed because it's good for the evolution of human compassion.
those who make decisions(those who invest) see that WoW is the most succesful game, so they tell developers to copy and simplify it, because the simpler it is the more people will it cater to. It's easy as that. Every MMO since WoW has been like that, it shows this simple parable that can maybe be drawn into a graph. They are simpler and simpler games that copy the same WoW basis. It's just a progressive dumbing down. That's the law of marketing, deal with it.
People should be insane, when they see a succesful game, to go try and think up a new idea and concept of virtual world from zero. When such risk-taking initiative is like a black hole, you dunno what may happen, it's completely a jump in the blank. as long as "doing the safe thing" is more convenient, why should people experiment?
As long as your home is source of all you could ever need, why should you go explore new worlds?
Just because the genre is progressing in a direction that you don't like, it doesn't mean the progression isn't happening. Also, progressively dumbing down mmorpg is not a law of marketing.
I can think of three upcoming games that are a distinct departure from the 'WoW' model, and yet they are still MMORPG. Dominus, WildStar and The Secret World. Innovation is happening. That doesn't mean it's happening for you though...it's happening for the industry.
[mod edit] What progression?
How is "if you like WoW, TOR is just like it, so come on!" a different direction to progress? that's not progress, it's conservation, it's "more of the same" is sure profit.
The direction the genre took with TOR is that of safety always pays, of safe economical investments, of recyclin WoW old clichés is good for business, of preventing social interaction in favor of SOLITARY egoistical experiences which beside the whole genre, it will also harm kids incapable of finding friends. What friends can he make when playing TOR he don't even need to talk with the party members, just yell "NOOB" at them?
TOR is having MMO's head toward SINGLE PLAYER experiences, it's making MMO's become ANTI-MMO's, it's killing the genre, how can you not see such an obvious truth? It's persuading future investors, RIGHT NOW, right at this very moment, that MMO's don't have to innovate, that they have to be accessible junk for morons, they can just reuse old clichés from WoW and clichés from offline games, it's convincing new business people that players DO NOT WANT innovation, that we're retards who want more of the same! It's discouraging research, it's discouraging experimentation, it's discouragin risk-taking, it's discouraging pioneering!!!
TOR is definitely, definitely, definitely, the antichrist of online videogaming.
And by the way i DID see Wildshitstar, it is another goddamn clone!
Its pretty selfish to think that any one game is a danger to the entire industry. Sure, maybe its not your style of game, but YOU alone don't dictate what the industry is, or how it becomes. If enough people like it, it will be successful. If a game is successful, people will copy it. If peopel copy it, the industry may change.
You may not like the direction the industry takes after a certain game arises. Hell, I didn't like the direction the industry took after WoW appeared. The industry is still around, though. It wasn't ruined. It just now caters to a different audience. If SWTOR turns out to be a smash hit, the same will happen again. If it turns out to be a dud, things will remain as they are until the next smash hit comes along.
Its pretty selfish to think that any one game is a danger to the entire industry. Sure, maybe its not your style of game, but YOU alone don't dictate what the industry is, or how it becomes. If enough people like it, it will be successful. If a game is successful, people will copy it. If peopel copy it, the industry may change.
You may not like the direction the industry takes after a certain game arises. Hell, I didn't like the direction the industry took after WoW appeared. The industry is still around, though. It wasn't ruined. It just now caters to a different audience. If SWTOR turns out to be a smash hit, the same will happen again. If it turns out to be a dud, things will remain as they are until the next smash hit comes along.
Its as simple as that.
the thing is that swtor is not different enough from wow to make any difference on the industry. It will make it the same, and that what's bothering OP i think. He wants change and bigger standards in mmo design (not that swtor is not a guality game, its just not innovative enough imho).
Originally posted by Gylfi Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Gylfi heh i wish the world was all cheeries and blossoms like you picture it, a utopical world where creativity is supposed to be good business, and like it's encouraged and financed because it's good for the evolution of human compassion. those who make decisions(those who invest) see that WoW is the most succesful game, so they tell developers to copy and simplify it, because the simpler it is the more people will it cater to. It's easy as that. Every MMO since WoW has been like that, it shows this simple parable that can maybe be drawn into a graph. They are simpler and simpler games that copy the same WoW basis. It's just a progressive dumbing down. That's the law of marketing, deal with it. People should be insane, when they see a succesful game, to go try and think up a new idea and concept of virtual world from zero. When such risk-taking initiative is like a black hole, you dunno what may happen, it's completely a jump in the blank. as long as "doing the safe thing" is more convenient, why should people experiment? As long as your home is source of all you could ever need, why should you go explore new worlds?
Just because the genre is progressing in a direction that you don't like, it doesn't mean the progression isn't happening. Also, progressively dumbing down mmorpg is not a law of marketing.
I can think of three upcoming games that are a distinct departure from the 'WoW' model, and yet they are still MMORPG. Dominus, WildStar and The Secret World. Innovation is happening. That doesn't mean it's happening for you though...it's happening for the industry.
oh in the quiet words of the virgin mary, what the fuck are you saying? What progression? How is "if you like WoW, TOR is just like it, so come on!" a different direction to progress? that's not progress, it's conservation, it's "more of the same" is sure profit. The direction the genre took with TOR is that of safety always pays, of safe economical investments, of recyclin WoW old clichés is good for business, of preventing social interaction in favor of SOLITARY egoistical experiences which beside the whole genre, it will also harm kids incapable of finding friends. What friends can he make when playing TOR he don't even need to talk with the party members, just yell "NOOB" at them? TOR is having MMO's head toward SINGLE PLAYER experiences, it's making MMO's become ANTI-MMO's, it's killing the genre, how can you not see such an obvious truth? It's persuading future investors, RIGHT NOW, right at this very moment, that MMO's don't have to innovate, that they have to be accessible junk for morons, they can just reuse old clichés from WoW and clichés from offline games, it's convincing new business people that players DO NOT WANT innovation, that we're retards who want more of the same! It's discouraging research, it's discouraging experimentation, it's discouragin risk-taking, it's discouraging pioneering!!! TOR is definitely, definitely, definitely, the antichrist of online videogaming. And by the way i DID see Wildshitstar, it is another goddamn clone!
Perhaps because it's not an obvious truth, or even a truth.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Its pretty selfish to think that any one game is a danger to the entire industry. Sure, maybe its not your style of game, but YOU alone don't dictate what the industry is, or how it becomes. If enough people like it, it will be successful. If a game is successful, people will copy it. If peopel copy it, the industry may change.
You may not like the direction the industry takes after a certain game arises. Hell, I didn't like the direction the industry took after WoW appeared. The industry is still around, though. It wasn't ruined. It just now caters to a different audience. If SWTOR turns out to be a smash hit, the same will happen again. If it turns out to be a dud, things will remain as they are until the next smash hit comes along.
Its as simple as that.
Oh we are selfish, then.
HAHAHAH.
[mod edit]
you said it, you didn't like the direction the industry took. It's not just personal like or dislike, tho. The MMO scenery is almost dead. People do NOT want to pay monthly anymore! The genre itself is stuck in its 6 years old standards, there's no innovation, all the innovative games are still those of 10 years ago, Second Life, EVE, UO.
So since the genre is failing, then it's not question of personal dislike, the direction we took is the WRONG one and incidentally it's the one "we" don't like, and that's just incidental, cause we only like what's best for the genre. There's no personal taste about it, that's what the OP meant with people being selfish!
Its pretty selfish to think that any one game is a danger to the entire industry. Sure, maybe its not your style of game, but YOU alone don't dictate what the industry is, or how it becomes. If enough people like it, it will be successful. If a game is successful, people will copy it. If peopel copy it, the industry may change.
You may not like the direction the industry takes after a certain game arises. Hell, I didn't like the direction the industry took after WoW appeared. The industry is still around, though. It wasn't ruined. It just now caters to a different audience. If SWTOR turns out to be a smash hit, the same will happen again. If it turns out to be a dud, things will remain as they are until the next smash hit comes along.
Its as simple as that.
the thing is that swtor is not different enough from wow to make any difference on the industry. It will make it the same, and that what's bothering OP i think. He wants change and bigger standards in mmo design (not that swtor is not a guality game, its just not innovative enough imho).
Yeah, I whole-heartedly agree with wanting change, bigger standards, etc etc. I want all that too, but I'm not so arrogant to think that just because I dont get what I want, that everything is going to pot.
Look at the music/movie industry. Everything in our society is turning into a complete lack of creativity. If you want something different and creative, you must turn to talented indy musicians/movie makers, and sadly MMOs. It's just like the good bands. They are out there, but you have to search hard for them. So Minecraft is one I hear is good. Doesn't look like my type of game. So I turned to Linkrealms.
Its pretty selfish to think that any one game is a danger to the entire industry. Sure, maybe its not your style of game, but YOU alone don't dictate what the industry is, or how it becomes. If enough people like it, it will be successful. If a game is successful, people will copy it. If peopel copy it, the industry may change.
You may not like the direction the industry takes after a certain game arises. Hell, I didn't like the direction the industry took after WoW appeared. The industry is still around, though. It wasn't ruined. It just now caters to a different audience. If SWTOR turns out to be a smash hit, the same will happen again. If it turns out to be a dud, things will remain as they are until the next smash hit comes along.
Its as simple as that.
the thing is that swtor is not different enough from wow to make any difference on the industry. It will make it the same, and that what's bothering OP i think. He wants change and bigger standards in mmo design (not that swtor is not a guality game, its just not innovative enough imho).
Yeah, I whole-heartedly agree with wanting change, bigger standards, etc etc. I want all that too, but I'm not so arrogant to think that just because I dont get what I want, that everything is going to pot.
Ah it all comes down to this.
Lack of change is proof alone that everything is already in the pot.
AAA MMOs are about a $60 million investment at least, so unless someone is independantly wealthy and starts up a game studio, that money either has to come from a publisher, who will want some controls in order to safeguard their investment, or independant investors who, more often than not, like developers to work in more than 1 project to show that they are a "real company" stretching resources to thin, and if things arent looking their way, will butcher the projects and sell off the tech/ip/other assets. There really isnt a whole lot of room for risk taking.
Game devs are just like you and me, they have bills and families. They already work in some of the crappiest conditions in the tech industry, taking risks and going against the market, im sure, is very scary to alot of them.
So innovation is going to come from the small devs with small budgets and small/less shiny and graphically advanced games regardless of what TOR does, probably in the mobile field. If it is wildly successful in and for that arena, THEN and only then will we see that come to AAA land.
I just dont see TOR affecting the direction of the smaller guys.
Well if the WoW model failed in business sort of way, publishers would think that you gotta take risks to make profit in the MMO industry, they would think that players do want new weird virtual worlds, so they would have invested in a game like Mortal Online, instead of leaving Star Vault's people alone in their incompetence(some say, personally i like the game as it is), it would be more polished, and then more people would play, and it would be more succesful than it is.
Assuming that people go play sandbox games, if they have a TOR kind of polish and hype and sex appeal.
Its pretty selfish to think that any one game is a danger to the entire industry. Sure, maybe its not your style of game, but YOU alone don't dictate what the industry is, or how it becomes. If enough people like it, it will be successful. If a game is successful, people will copy it. If peopel copy it, the industry may change.
You may not like the direction the industry takes after a certain game arises. Hell, I didn't like the direction the industry took after WoW appeared. The industry is still around, though. It wasn't ruined. It just now caters to a different audience. If SWTOR turns out to be a smash hit, the same will happen again. If it turns out to be a dud, things will remain as they are until the next smash hit comes along.
Its as simple as that.
the thing is that swtor is not different enough from wow to make any difference on the industry. It will make it the same, and that what's bothering OP i think. He wants change and bigger standards in mmo design (not that swtor is not a guality game, its just not innovative enough imho).
Yeah, I whole-heartedly agree with wanting change, bigger standards, etc etc. I want all that too, but I'm not so arrogant to think that just because I dont get what I want, that everything is going to pot.
Ah it all comes down to this.
Lack of change is proof alone that everything is already in the pot.
Without change there's only death.
Except the industry is still profitable, which means enough people like it the way it is so that its not dying. It just puts people like us in the minority, it doesn't hurt the industry.
I do not think it is not worth it, I know it is not worth it ATM.
SWTOR is just too lacking to be worth it. Hopefully they will add more and make it more worthwhile, but they have not shown anything yet that is coming that is worthwhile, except stuff which is the equivalent of DLC stuff for an Xbox 360 game. At least with DLC you can choose to get it, but with a monthly fee you are forced to pay for it.
you sure have a habbit of presenting your opinions as facts
Except the industry is still profitable, which means enough people like it the way it is so that its not dying. It just puts people like us in the minority, it doesn't hurt the industry.
That depends on what kind of metric you are using to gauge if the industry is hurt or not. If profitability is your only metric then no, endless WoW clones has not shown to hurt company profitability.
But if you look at innovation, quality and progress then yes the MMORPG genre is severly hurt in those areas. Stagnated I would say, maybe even decadent.
Well if the WoW model failed in business sort of way, publishers would think that you gotta take risks to make profit in the MMO industry, they would think that players do want new weird virtual worlds, so they would have invested in a game like Mortal Online, instead of leaving Star Vault's people alone in their incompetence(some say, personally i like the game as it is), it would be more polished, and then more people would play, and it would be more succesful than it is.
Assuming that people go play sandbox games, if they have a TOR kind of polish and hype and sex appeal.
You do realize how player support has effected the indie sandbox genre right? Look at the post below, then tell me in this genre indie's have a chance... Eve is a very good example, when it released it was in horrible shape, almost a disaster. Due to support the game grew and today it is one of the more polished well-rounded games on the market. Players don't have that type of patience today, meaning these indies such as SV, have no hope in ever reaching the heights that EVE has.
IF TOR, with all the content it launched with can't please these folks how will an indie ever be able to? This type of thing hurts the chances for something different far more than TOR ever will. Gamers seek complete polished games, and will not wait around (paying) for it to happen.
Originally posted by superniceguy
No it is definately not worrth it ATM
I do not think it is not worth it, I know it is not worth it ATM.
SWTOR is just too lacking to be worth it. Hopefully they will add more and make it more worthwhile, but they have not shown anything yet that is coming that is worthwhile
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
I see it like this:
There was UO and there was EQ
UO was "sandbox"
EQ was "Theme Park"
Blizzard looks at a bunch of games
-UO
-SWG
-EQ
They decide to go with EQ and "iterate" on it. Nothing wrong with that.
eqnext.wikia.com
Hey look another OP who is mad that Bioware didn't make a game that they wanted to play.
YES MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS, WE MUST SAVE THE MMO!
To arms, wield your baseball bats, smash the vile SWTOR serves, threaten to vile investors of theme park MMOs, and bask in the holy glory that is SANDBOX MMOS!
Sorry but if we want an MMO that is different from SWTOR, plenty of alternatives did come out in the past and are coming out, and they haven't been big hits. If there is a sandbox MMO considered better by the masses then theme park mmos, it will succeed on its own, regardless of how well SWTOR does.
Just because the genre is progressing in a direction that you don't like, it doesn't mean the progression isn't happening. Also, progressively dumbing down mmorpg is not a law of marketing.
I can think of three upcoming games that are a distinct departure from the 'WoW' model, and yet they are still MMORPG. Dominus, WildStar and The Secret World. Innovation is happening. That doesn't mean it's happening for you though...it's happening for the industry.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
HE has a point, a huge one.
You have fun in your game, but TOR is harming virtuality and evolution of the genre, with its single player attitude and its "if you like WoW, you'll feel right at home with TOR". How can you not see that a game that's more of a single player game harms the genre that is supposed to be about the opposite values, virtuality and persistancy? MMO's are not about personal and individualistic stories, noway! They are about living in a community, sharing its problems, facing its economical and political problems simulateneously. EVE ONLINE does good to the genre because it simulates society and economy and persistancy and simulates politics which results may only give you new perspective on our little planet's political situation. While a game like TOR will never make you think things over, it's supposed to put your mind at sleep.
It's objectively, unbiasedly harmful to the genre. And you having fun ignores this, because all you care about is your selfish fun.
And you're even more selfish because your "fun" will soon be over, you'll get tired of TOR, you'll screw TOR over just as quickly. You don't care about anything and your fun comes and goes with a whims. Because all you care is your shallow concept of carnal fun.
Instead WE hardcore people care about the evolution of the genre, we wanna see it cluttering with new concepts of virtuality, experimentations, new frontiers of dynamic worlds explored, games that innovate, games entirely different from WoW, games without levels, without skills, without NPCs, where players control everythingt, hell i want to see a game without violence, without kill counts, i hate killing things i hate violence, i want a PvP that's about debating duels. And incidentally we have fun when we discover new things, our fun is more bent on the pleasure of discovery, of research rather than pure gratuitous entertainment. You have shallow casual fun all the while TOR is a conservative game which success will not encourage innovation. And you don't give a damn, because all you care about is fun.
the best blog of the net
+ One Million to OP!
Yes, Variety is a good thing, and im sure we all welcome it, however, in a competitive industry like this, its all about surviva of the fittest.
(With the exception of EVE, but Eve is unique) EVERY Sandbox MMO ever released has failed hard, in comparison to the Themeparks released at the same time.
This is down to a number of factors -
Sandbox gamers are a niche crowd, and therefore there isnt as big of a market for a sandbox game.
Sandbox fans are a pain in the ass! They always want every feature they can conceive of included in the game, and will always exploit any bug to the max and basically cheat to win. Just look at Darkfall. Yes, the devs should have fixed the bugs, but it wouldnt be half as much of a problem if the player base wasnt so intent on cheating.
All the sandboxes I have seen are buggy peices of crap and dont deserve success because they are just not good enough to compete in the mainstream market
The problem investors have, is if they put huge amounts of money into making a sandbox game that IS good enough to compete, not enough people will play it to make it profitable because there just arent that many sandbox fans. If 95% of MMO players prefer themeparks, and 5% want sandboxes, which way do you think the money is going to go? (numbers pulled out of my ass)
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
I see alot of posts back and forth about a game is "2 months on the market" I work in an industry where we tarket "Market Shares" from competitiors it doesn't mean the company I work for wants to be like our competitiors but if there is market share we can grap 2% or 10% from to generate revenue, and then move in our own direction with "cash". Then we do it. I don't know what Bioware 5 year plan is for TOR. They haven't defined a clear line which leaves alot of people just to run around like chicken little on either side of the fence.
Personnely I would like to see TOR move to less themeparkish after level 50. As those levels at (end game) create a ton of boredom from people with things to do. Dropping the style to more of sandbox style would open and as well tick off a whole new crowd of people.
In closing my point is simple : If BW targeted to achieve roughly 10-15% of WOW Market share to generate revenue then they achieved first step of thier goal. Now it would be stupid to run around saying "We want 10% of your market' as it broadcasts corperate targets and the non stop whining on the forums scream wow clone already it would be insane, and the last thing I do in my indusrty is pick of the phone and call my competition and say "I am going after 10% of your customers because I need to generate revenue to launch my next thing that I have already planned and need money for" Because then my competition would shift gears and do everything to prevent it. When you start with 0% of the market and get 10% that is huge no matter how you look at it.
I will wait till I get better feel of the direction of TOR, but because I faith they will do something I may like, so they get my money for now, when I feel they aren't going direction I want I will stop paying and play more xbox.
It would have been "good" for the industry in such a way that it could even appear "bad" to some people.. If SWTOR failed miserably causing a financial ripple to burst through Bioware or even get EA's attention, I am positive that P2P MMO's would have died immediately.. Some people are fine with it, and others would only scowl..
In the industry now, you cannot be sure as to what would profit and for how long. People scream how they want sandboxes blah blah.. But shake my head whenever I hear someone complain about "leveling too slow" in themepark games.. Face it, THIS is what our genre is now.. Nothing more, nothing less..
Some people hate it, but obviously more people like it and that's all that matters right?
I've said it before, we had our chance to speak up about the future.. We buried plenty of indie games because they weren't "like AAA P2P games" although they ATTEMPTED to drive the industry in a different direction, but we didn't care.. We spent our money on WoW, Rift, WAR, AION and SWTOR, and that's what investors see..
[mod edit] What progression?
How is "if you like WoW, TOR is just like it, so come on!" a different direction to progress? that's not progress, it's conservation, it's "more of the same" is sure profit.
The direction the genre took with TOR is that of safety always pays, of safe economical investments, of recyclin WoW old clichés is good for business, of preventing social interaction in favor of SOLITARY egoistical experiences which beside the whole genre, it will also harm kids incapable of finding friends. What friends can he make when playing TOR he don't even need to talk with the party members, just yell "NOOB" at them?
TOR is having MMO's head toward SINGLE PLAYER experiences, it's making MMO's become ANTI-MMO's, it's killing the genre, how can you not see such an obvious truth? It's persuading future investors, RIGHT NOW, right at this very moment, that MMO's don't have to innovate, that they have to be accessible junk for morons, they can just reuse old clichés from WoW and clichés from offline games, it's convincing new business people that players DO NOT WANT innovation, that we're retards who want more of the same! It's discouraging research, it's discouraging experimentation, it's discouragin risk-taking, it's discouraging pioneering!!!
TOR is definitely, definitely, definitely, the antichrist of online videogaming.
And by the way i DID see Wildshitstar, it is another goddamn clone!
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Its pretty selfish to think that any one game is a danger to the entire industry. Sure, maybe its not your style of game, but YOU alone don't dictate what the industry is, or how it becomes. If enough people like it, it will be successful. If a game is successful, people will copy it. If peopel copy it, the industry may change.
You may not like the direction the industry takes after a certain game arises. Hell, I didn't like the direction the industry took after WoW appeared. The industry is still around, though. It wasn't ruined. It just now caters to a different audience. If SWTOR turns out to be a smash hit, the same will happen again. If it turns out to be a dud, things will remain as they are until the next smash hit comes along.
Its as simple as that.
the thing is that swtor is not different enough from wow to make any difference on the industry. It will make it the same, and that what's bothering OP i think. He wants change and bigger standards in mmo design (not that swtor is not a guality game, its just not innovative enough imho).
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Just because the genre is progressing in a direction that you don't like, it doesn't mean the progression isn't happening. Also, progressively dumbing down mmorpg is not a law of marketing.
I can think of three upcoming games that are a distinct departure from the 'WoW' model, and yet they are still MMORPG. Dominus, WildStar and The Secret World. Innovation is happening. That doesn't mean it's happening for you though...it's happening for the industry.
oh in the quiet words of the virgin mary, what the fuck are you saying? What progression?
How is "if you like WoW, TOR is just like it, so come on!" a different direction to progress? that's not progress, it's conservation, it's "more of the same" is sure profit.
The direction the genre took with TOR is that of safety always pays, of safe economical investments, of recyclin WoW old clichés is good for business, of preventing social interaction in favor of SOLITARY egoistical experiences which beside the whole genre, it will also harm kids incapable of finding friends. What friends can he make when playing TOR he don't even need to talk with the party members, just yell "NOOB" at them?
TOR is having MMO's head toward SINGLE PLAYER experiences, it's making MMO's become ANTI-MMO's, it's killing the genre, how can you not see such an obvious truth? It's persuading future investors, RIGHT NOW, right at this very moment, that MMO's don't have to innovate, that they have to be accessible junk for morons, they can just reuse old clichés from WoW and clichés from offline games, it's convincing new business people that players DO NOT WANT innovation, that we're retards who want more of the same! It's discouraging research, it's discouraging experimentation, it's discouragin risk-taking, it's discouraging pioneering!!!
TOR is definitely, definitely, definitely, the antichrist of online videogaming.
And by the way i DID see Wildshitstar, it is another goddamn clone!
Perhaps because it's not an obvious truth, or even a truth.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Oh we are selfish, then.
HAHAHAH.
[mod edit]
you said it, you didn't like the direction the industry took. It's not just personal like or dislike, tho. The MMO scenery is almost dead. People do NOT want to pay monthly anymore! The genre itself is stuck in its 6 years old standards, there's no innovation, all the innovative games are still those of 10 years ago, Second Life, EVE, UO.
So since the genre is failing, then it's not question of personal dislike, the direction we took is the WRONG one and incidentally it's the one "we" don't like, and that's just incidental, cause we only like what's best for the genre. There's no personal taste about it, that's what the OP meant with people being selfish!
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Yeah, I whole-heartedly agree with wanting change, bigger standards, etc etc. I want all that too, but I'm not so arrogant to think that just because I dont get what I want, that everything is going to pot.
Look at the music/movie industry. Everything in our society is turning into a complete lack of creativity. If you want something different and creative, you must turn to talented indy musicians/movie makers, and sadly MMOs. It's just like the good bands. They are out there, but you have to search hard for them. So Minecraft is one I hear is good. Doesn't look like my type of game. So I turned to Linkrealms.
...
Ah it all comes down to this.
Lack of change is proof alone that everything is already in the pot.
Without change there's only death.
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AAA MMOs are about a $60 million investment at least, so unless someone is independantly wealthy and starts up a game studio, that money either has to come from a publisher, who will want some controls in order to safeguard their investment, or independant investors who, more often than not, like developers to work in more than 1 project to show that they are a "real company" stretching resources to thin, and if things arent looking their way, will butcher the projects and sell off the tech/ip/other assets. There really isnt a whole lot of room for risk taking.
Game devs are just like you and me, they have bills and families. They already work in some of the crappiest conditions in the tech industry, taking risks and going against the market, im sure, is very scary to alot of them.
So innovation is going to come from the small devs with small budgets and small/less shiny and graphically advanced games regardless of what TOR does, probably in the mobile field. If it is wildly successful in and for that arena, THEN and only then will we see that come to AAA land.
I just dont see TOR affecting the direction of the smaller guys.
Well if the WoW model failed in business sort of way, publishers would think that you gotta take risks to make profit in the MMO industry, they would think that players do want new weird virtual worlds, so they would have invested in a game like Mortal Online, instead of leaving Star Vault's people alone in their incompetence(some say, personally i like the game as it is), it would be more polished, and then more people would play, and it would be more succesful than it is.
Assuming that people go play sandbox games, if they have a TOR kind of polish and hype and sex appeal.
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Except the industry is still profitable, which means enough people like it the way it is so that its not dying. It just puts people like us in the minority, it doesn't hurt the industry.
you sure have a habbit of presenting your opinions as facts
this is perfect. read this and close thread. lol
That depends on what kind of metric you are using to gauge if the industry is hurt or not. If profitability is your only metric then no, endless WoW clones has not shown to hurt company profitability.
But if you look at innovation, quality and progress then yes the MMORPG genre is severly hurt in those areas. Stagnated I would say, maybe even decadent.
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HAHA! So true.
You do realize how player support has effected the indie sandbox genre right? Look at the post below, then tell me in this genre indie's have a chance... Eve is a very good example, when it released it was in horrible shape, almost a disaster. Due to support the game grew and today it is one of the more polished well-rounded games on the market. Players don't have that type of patience today, meaning these indies such as SV, have no hope in ever reaching the heights that EVE has.
IF TOR, with all the content it launched with can't please these folks how will an indie ever be able to? This type of thing hurts the chances for something different far more than TOR ever will. Gamers seek complete polished games, and will not wait around (paying) for it to happen.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson