seriously?!?! so if AAA comes out and its actually amazing and you DON'T have to pay monthly you honestly think people will not leave swtor? wow just wow.. so people would rather pay 15 a month for a subpar game against a better one(no real opinion on gw2 yet since I haven't played it) that that don't pay a monthly fee for? that's some interesting logic you have there.. you do realise GW2 is not a lobby game like gw1 right?
That's not what I'm saying.
Of course there will be those who play only Guild Wars 2, like there were those that only played Guild Wars 1. But a B2P game won't have a massive impact on P2P games like you, and many others, assume.
I know I will buy Guild Wars 2 and still keep an active subscription on another game (might not be The Old Republic, probably be The Secret World) and I know many will also do this.
All I am saying is B2P and P2P shouldn't really be compared, or put against each other, to the extent they are, because they don't affect each other much.
Guild Wars 2 could possible be the greatest MMO ever made, but will that stop people from also keeping a sub game or two on the side? I don't think so.
lol ok man so you would rather pay 30 bucks a month on two sub par MMOs rather than just play the best MMO ever made and not pay a monthly sub... makes a ton of sense to me. Of COURSE you can compare B2P and P2P if they are the SAME genre! GW2 was not made to cater to just gw1 fans its a actual MMO to compete with games like wow and swtor. If it ends up being a better game than either of those then why would you continue to pay for a game that's not as good as one you don't have to pay for? what the hell kind of logic is that?
hmm, not sure why GW2 is even in the mix, after all, its a b2p pvp game, if anything GW2's is going to be competing with Planetside 2... which will be F2P apparently, but.. GW2 is still going to be a niche game, its PVP centric which isnt to everybodies taste by any means, and before start getting quotes about dynamic events and such.. i doubt very much whether the PVE side of GW2 will be anything other than mediocre at best.. all i can say is, at the moment, SW;TOR doesnt seem to be suffering all that much, at least visibly, servers are relatively busy, and there doesnt seem to be any need for server consolidation.. yet.. so player retention for the first month at least, seems fairly solid.
servers are relatively busy, and there doesnt seem to be any need for server consolidation.. yet.. so player retention for the first month at least, seems fairly solid.
Whew, not so sure about that one. There are some really lightly populated servers in this game.
They certainly won't do any server consolidation but quite frankly there are some that could use it.
EDIT: Oh let me add this now so maybe they can save themselves some time. To the poster that will feel the need to tell me how their fleet has hundreds on it and planets do too. Yeah, I know. Not saying every server. Just because yours is bustling doesn't mean they all are.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Thing is, after all the hype and a Christmas release, new players are going to be but a trickle at this stage, far out-numbered by swathes of disatisfied players leaving the game.
BW already shot themselves in the foot by producing a game that many can't play due to performance issues, even if they enjoy it. Add the players who simply don't enjoy it and others who are tired of the bugs, then more who are disgusted with the exploits and you realise why the game is already on a steep downward spiral.
lol ok man so you would rather pay 30 bucks a month on two sub par MMOs rather than just play the best MMO ever made and not pay a monthly sub... makes a ton of sense to me. Of COURSE you can compare B2P and P2P if they are the SAME genre! GW2 was not made to cater to just gw1 fans its a actual MMO to compete with games like wow and swtor. If it ends up being a better game than either of those then why would you continue to pay for a game that's not as good as one you don't have to pay for? what the hell kind of logic is that?
The 'best MMO ever made' is kinda fanboing, don't you think? I should've thought that people with some experience would have adopted a 'wait and see' attitude these days instead of falling into the same trap over and over again.
As for GW2, some people think like you, others don't, the golden rule of gaming, not every gamer is the same or treats games and their gaming the same. I can see how GW2 will keep players busy for a month or 2, but what after that, when you've reached level cap on multiple chars and seen most of all the results of Personal Story and DE's, and WvWvW and dungeons becomes your main entertainment that's left and you notice that instead of 40-80 hours a week, your GW2 gaming time has decreased to a 10, 15 hours a week?
After the first months I still played GW from time to time, but had no problem with playing other MMO's next to it. In fact, with all the interesting MMO's this year I'm kinda glad that GW2 is B2P so that I can easier play other MMO's next to it that I don't want to miss out on.
edit: meh, I just realised this is in the TOR section and that it's not about the OP topic -_-
Guild Wars 2 is Buy to Play. Like Guild Wars 1 players they will buy it and then continue to sub to another game.
Guild Wars 2 will only be competition to Guild Wars 1, and very little competition to anyone else. Even though it might sell more boxes than every other game.
Star Wars doesn't have much to worry about when it comes to GW2 other than maybe people not subscribing because they think The Old Republic is unplayable after playing GW2. Which I doubt will be the case.
When GW2 releases The Old Republic will have had many patches and changes, and it will probably be considered a great game.
seriously?!?! so if AAA comes out and its actually amazing and you DON'T have to pay monthly you honestly think people will not leave swtor? wow just wow.. so people would rather pay 15 a month for a subpar game against a better one(no real opinion on gw2 yet since I haven't played it) that that don't pay a monthly fee for? that's some interesting logic you have there.. you do realise GW2 is not a lobby game like gw1 right?
Phry think it is aswell lol
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
lol ok man so you would rather pay 30 bucks a month on two sub par MMOs rather than just play the best MMO ever made and not pay a monthly sub... makes a ton of sense to me. Of COURSE you can compare B2P and P2P if they are the SAME genre! GW2 was not made to cater to just gw1 fans its a actual MMO to compete with games like wow and swtor. If it ends up being a better game than either of those then why would you continue to pay for a game that's not as good as one you don't have to pay for? what the hell kind of logic is that?
The 'best MMO ever made' is kinda fanboing, don't you think? I should've thought that people with some experience would have adopted a 'wait and see' attitude these days instead of falling into the same trap over and over again.
As for GW2, some people think like you, others don't, the golden rule of gaming, not every gamer is the same or treats games and their gaming the same. I can see how GW2 will keep players busy for a month or 2, but what after that, when you've reached level cap on multiple chars and seen most of all the results of Personal Story and DE's, and WvWvW and dungeons becomes your main entertainment that's left and you notice that instead of 40-80 hours a week, your GW2 gaming time has decreased to a 10, 15 hours a week?
After the first months I still played GW from time to time, but had no problem with playing other MMO's next to it. In fact, with all the interesting MMO's this year I'm kinda glad that GW2 is B2P so that I can easier play other MMO's next to it that I don't want to miss out on.
wasn't saying anything about gw2 being greatest game ever made was just making an example.. i'm just stating a fact if a better MMO comes out that costs nothing a month and you enjoy that game more then why would you pay money to another MMO you don't like as much. If the new B2P game is really that great I assume all your firends and such will come over to the new B2P game and then there is no reason to stay with the p2p game.. that's all im' saying
also you can't really use gw1 as an example for this since it was more of a lobby game than anything..
wasn't saying anything about gw2 being greatest game ever made was just making an example.. i'm just stating a fact if a better MMO comes out that costs nothing a month and you enjoy that game more then why would you pay money to another MMO you don't like as much. If the new B2P game is really that great I assume all your firends and such will come over to the new B2P game and then there is no reason to stay with the p2p game.. that's all im' saying
also you can't really use gw1 as an example for this since it was more of a lobby game than anything..
But if you're still having fun in other (P2P) MMO's with friends there, then a B2P game like GW2 is easier to combine with other MMO's just like GW was, where the game was played intensively the first months after launch and with expansions, but outside of those periods other MMO's were played and had fun with next to casually playing GW from time to time. That was my point.
wasn't saying anything about gw2 being greatest game ever made was just making an example.. i'm just stating a fact if a better MMO comes out that costs nothing a month and you enjoy that game more then why would you pay money to another MMO you don't like as much. If the new B2P game is really that great I assume all your firends and such will come over to the new B2P game and then there is no reason to stay with the p2p game.. that's all im' saying
also you can't really use gw1 as an example for this since it was more of a lobby game than anything..
But if you're still having fun in other (P2P) MMO's with friends there, then a B2P game like GW2 is easier to combine with other MMO's just like GW was, where the game was played intensively the first months after launch and with expansions, but outside of those periods other MMO's were played and had fun with next to casually playing GW from time to time. That was my point.
Which both scenarios will happen.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
What mmo is it that you like playing that sold over 2 million in this amount of time again?
Consider the developement costs. Consider the developer. Consider the publisher. Consider the IP. If you still don't realize why it is indeed ONLY 2 million copies I'm afraid I won't be able to help you understand.
That's what I was getting at...
Sure - if you throw enough money at something you can push up the results. I bet if they'd spent $1 billion on development and marketing they might've sold 3 million copies.... but for the money they spent (and will spend with the continued costs of running an mmo), I don't think 2 million is all that impressive.
Well... consider the math for a moment:
2 million copies at an average of $80 per copy. The normal edition was less, but the digital deluxe and collector's editions were more. That's $160 million in revenue right there.
1.7 million active subscribers. Even if only 1 million of those are past the initial free month, that's another $15 million.
So in the first month alone, they've basically recouped the entire 6 years worth of development costs (or they will in another month or so).
And no other MMORPG in history has reached 1 million subscribers (3 days), or 2 million sales (5 weeks) as quickly as SW:TOR has. So I think your "expectations" are a bit unrealistic.
The fact that they've already covered 100% of their development costs, and everything from here on just continues to pay for more development (and data centers of course), means they're in a pretty darn good position. I think I'd read somewhere they only need 500k subscribers to be profitable, so at 1.7 million subs, yeah I think they're doing just fine.
Everyone is talking about retention rates and how many "real" subscribers this game actually has...
I think the bigger question is why did it only sell 2 million copies in the first 6 weeks? I don't care how that is spun by EA - that cannot be something they are pleased about.
This is an EA/Bioware game... supposed to be the next big thing. To see sales drying up as fast as they did in January...
Just did a 3mth sub, just to tie me over to Tera or GW2 launch.
I like the game enough to give it another short sub; just hoping they will fix the enormous amount of gameplay bugs by end of March. (before Easter break)
All games need support and constructive comments to succeed, they do not benefit from a huge "I want this, and I want it now" list of demands.
Changes need a lot of man power and time to deliver. So show your support !!!
I can't see how people wouldn't think a game with the name star wars made from bioware would sell anything less.. For me I thought it would sell close to 4-5 million boxes on its first month.. but I also feel in the coming months server merges are innevitable.
Like Lord of the Rings Online should have? Like Dungeons and Dragons should have? Like Warhammer should have? Need I go on?
Point I'm trying to make is close to 90% of gamers don't like to pay subscription fees for anything other than their xbox/playstation fees.
So you can't compare an MMO sales to a non-MMO sales, ever (an exception can be made for WoW, possibly.)
The Old Republic has sold more games in such a short time than any other MMO ever (I'm not including WoW expansions here.)
So yes, the game is a massive success, and has done wonderful things for the MMO genre.
wasn't saying anything about gw2 being greatest game ever made was just making an example.. i'm just stating a fact if a better MMO comes out that costs nothing a month and you enjoy that game more then why would you pay money to another MMO you don't like as much. If the new B2P game is really that great I assume all your firends and such will come over to the new B2P game and then there is no reason to stay with the p2p game.. that's all im' saying
also you can't really use gw1 as an example for this since it was more of a lobby game than anything..
But if you're still having fun in other (P2P) MMO's with friends there, then a B2P game like GW2 is easier to combine with other MMO's just like GW was, where the game was played intensively the first months after launch and with expansions, but outside of those periods other MMO's were played and had fun with next to casually playing GW from time to time. That was my point.
you are still comparing it to GW1 which was NOT a true MMO... say blizzard released there next MMO and it was the greatest MMO ever made 100% better than wow in every single way and it was B2P you think a LOT of people would not abondon all P2P MMOs and just play that one? now of course some people will branch off and play other MMOs that fill a certain niche like i'm sure secret world and TERA and planetside 2 will since they are not just your traditional themepark BUT the issue is swtor IS your traditional themepark so if a BETTER one is released and is B2P i don't see how you can't see this will greatly effect swtor sub numbers.
So yes, the game is a massive success, and has done wonderful things for the MMO genre.
wrong
I'm not following that either. How can anyone know what this game has done for the genre at this point? Outside of impressive initial sales we don't even know at this point what the general consensus is going to be for this game yet over the long haul.
Unless of course you want to cite the same yahoos that raved about Warhammer, AoC, etc. Way too early to know how SWTOR will be remembered overall from either a good or bad perspective outside the initial sales the game had. That will be.
Now whether it will be remembered as the start of a new era and behemoth of an mmo or one of the biggest drops in player populations and retainability remains to be seen.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
servers are relatively busy, and there doesnt seem to be any need for server consolidation.. yet.. so player retention for the first month at least, seems fairly solid.
Whew, not so sure about that one. There are some really lightly populated servers in this game.
They certainly won't do any server consolidation but quite frankly there are some that could use it.
EDIT: Oh let me add this now so maybe they can save themselves some time. To the poster that will feel the need to tell me how their fleet has hundreds on it and planets do too. Yeah, I know. Not saying every server. Just because yours is bustling doesn't mean they all are.
just going from looking at the server selection screen, you can select between European and North American servers freely, during prime time Euro zone, most servers had good populations, several full quite a few heavy, but no.. as in none.. light.. the surprising thing imo, was that even at this time, when Americans are generally otherwise occupied with work/school etc, several NA servers showed a heavy pop, although most were light.. but during NA prime time that did change dramatically.. so yes.. at the moment just going from server populations, i'd say that for the first month at least, the retention rate has been fairly solid, i do have issue with how the game handles populations though, limiting each instance to i think a maximum of around 200 players, does seem exceptionally low numbers, whether this is due to limitations of the hero engine.. i don't know.. but it does make the place look fairly empty. i think it would have been better really to change the limits on some of the areas, like the fleet hubs etc, to at least 5x that figure.. though imo, the game doesnt do itself any favours by focusing gameplay on the single player element anyway
servers are relatively busy, and there doesnt seem to be any need for server consolidation.. yet.. so player retention for the first month at least, seems fairly solid.
Whew, not so sure about that one. There are some really lightly populated servers in this game.
They certainly won't do any server consolidation but quite frankly there are some that could use it.
EDIT: Oh let me add this now so maybe they can save themselves some time. To the poster that will feel the need to tell me how their fleet has hundreds on it and planets do too. Yeah, I know. Not saying every server. Just because yours is bustling doesn't mean they all are.
just going from looking at the server selection screen, you can select between European and North American servers freely, during prime time Euro zone, most servers had good populations, several full quite a few heavy, but no.. as in none.. light.. the surprising thing imo, was that even at this time, when Americans are generally otherwise occupied with work/school etc, several NA servers showed a heavy pop, although most were light.. but during NA prime time that did change dramatically.. so yes.. at the moment just going from server populations, i'd say that for the first month at least, the retention rate has been fairly solid, i do have issue with how the game handles populations though, limiting each instance to i think a maximum of around 200 players, does seem exceptionally low numbers, whether this is due to limitations of the hero engine.. i don't know.. but it does make the place look fairly empty. i think it would have been better really to change the limits on some of the areas, like the fleet hubs etc, to at least 5x that figure.. though imo, the game doesnt do itself any favours by focusing gameplay on the single player element anyway
I agree with you on this engines apparent limitation of rendering large groups of characters in one place. Maybe the Hero engine does allot of other things nicely, scripting, world building etc, but the ability to handle allot of traffic should be top priority when pickng an engine for your AAA MMO.
you are still comparing it to GW1 which was NOT a true MMO... say blizzard released there next MMO and it was the greatest MMO ever made 100% better than wow in every single way and it was B2P you think a LOT of people would not abondon all P2P MMOs and just play that one? now of course some people will branch off and play other MMOs that fill a certain niche like i'm sure secret world and TERA and planetside 2 will since they are not just your traditional themepark BUT the issue is swtor IS your traditional themepark so if a BETTER one is released and is B2P i don't see how you can't see this will greatly effect swtor sub numbers.
You again fail to see the point: personally I considered GW as much of an MMO as a DDO, but whether someone considers GW an MMO or not, by me and others it was still played next to other MMO's we subbed to. The same will happen with GW2.
Let me give another example: I occassionally hop by in LotrO and AoC from time to time to play around or meet with friends and (ex) guildies, while at the same time being subbed to another MMO. I'm glad that I'm able to, if they were still P2P I wouldn't do it, and I'm not the only one doing it like that. When AoC was still P2P I hopped into LotrO from time to time, something I wouldn't do if LotrO was P2P, then I'd be swapping subs during the year.
Better is hugely subjective: to you, it may be, to others, it might not.
Thing is, every AAA MMO release will have its influence on ALL MMO's not only TOR, certainly a GW2 that many look forward to.
However, a B2P MMO will have less impact on subs than a P2P MMO, for reasons as described above.
just going from looking at the server selection screen, you can select between European and North American servers freely, during prime time Euro zone, most servers had good populations, several full quite a few heavy, but no.. as in none.. light.. the surprising thing imo, was that even at this time, when Americans are generally otherwise occupied with work/school etc, several NA servers showed a heavy pop, although most were light.. but during NA prime time that did change dramatically.. so yes.. at the moment just going from server populations, i'd say that for the first month at least, the retention rate has been fairly solid, i do have issue with how the game handles populations though, limiting each instance to i think a maximum of around 200 players, does seem exceptionally low numbers, whether this is due to limitations of the hero engine.. i don't know.. but it does make the place look fairly empty. i think it would have been better really to change the limits on some of the areas, like the fleet hubs etc, to at least 5x that figure.. though imo, the game doesnt do itself any favours by focusing gameplay on the single player element anyway
200! no way because many here claim they see 400+ in fleet all the time! I never seen more than just under 200 in fleet so that's my guess about 200 or so per phase which really sucks.. really takes the overall MMO feeling out of the game I think its an engine issue though which is even worse since it's not something they will probably ever change.
What mmo is it that you like playing that sold over 2 million in this amount of time again?
Consider the developement costs. Consider the developer. Consider the publisher. Consider the IP. If you still don't realize why it is indeed ONLY 2 million copies I'm afraid I won't be able to help you understand.
That's what I was getting at...
Sure - if you throw enough money at something you can push up the results. I bet if they'd spent $1 billion on development and marketing they might've sold 3 million copies.... but for the money they spent (and will spend with the continued costs of running an mmo), I don't think 2 million is all that impressive.
Well... consider the math for a moment:
2 million copies at an average of $80 per copy. The normal edition was less, but the digital deluxe and collector's editions were more. That's $160 million in revenue right there.
1.7 million active subscribers. Even if only 1 million of those are past the initial free month, that's another $15 million.
So in the first month alone, they've basically recouped the entire 6 years worth of development costs (or they will in another month or so).
And no other MMORPG in history has reached 1 million subscribers (3 days), or 2 million sales (5 weeks) as quickly as SW:TOR has. So I think your "expectations" are a bit unrealistic.
The fact that they've already covered 100% of their development costs, and everything from here on just continues to pay for more development (and data centers of course), means they're in a pretty darn good position. I think I'd read somewhere they only need 500k subscribers to be profitable, so at 1.7 million subs, yeah I think they're doing just fine.
You realize that from those 80$ they might get 40$ net, right? Maybe even less. So it's not 160$ millions right there, rather 80$ million. And from the 15$ milion the first month you can substract a lot from costs, because you must know they said with 1M players they would me making a profit "but nothing worth writing home about". So i don't think they made even 1M at all but let's be generous and consider that they recoverd 80M + 1M total. Still 219$ million to go if you believe the 300$ million figure. 100$ million if you believe a 180M figure, etc.
just going from looking at the server selection screen, you can select between European and North American servers freely, during prime time Euro zone, most servers had good populations, several full quite a few heavy, but no.. as in none.. light..
I'm not referring to the categories they use to gauge the servers. I'm talking about the actual amount of people on the servers. Regardless what status they give them there seems to be a hell of a difference in the range of players that determine whether a server is deemed light, standard, or heavy. I play on Faa'tha or whatever the fuck it is called. During prime time there was about 40 people on average on fleet this weekend. Hoth was averaging about 12 people and Belsawhateveritis had ten.
That is not a packed server by any stretch of the imagination yet I believe even though it was this low on the server lists it showed up as heavy this weekend. Anyways, my point is those servers gauges they use don't mean shit from what I have seen. The fact is while there are some servers filled with people and healthy possibly even growing populations there are some others in this game that are seriously lacking in players.
Except for on the starter planets. Not sure what the hell the deal is but there always seem to be a bunch there on every server. It's like they reroll over and over again just to play those areas I swear.
I have never been on a planet in this game that has been anywhere near 200 people. Think the most I have seen was on the planets right after your class starter one. Both of those planets had over a hundred each on them and this was when I first started. Dromund Kass still may break a hundred on my current server during primetime. I haven't seen it but it is up there so sure it does at times. Coruscant on Empress Teta really dropped off though. Still a decent amount there but nowhere near what it used to be.
...and considering those are the most populated planets. Gives you an idea I suppose how the rest goes from there.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
200! no way because many here claim they see 400+ in fleet all the time! I never seen more than just under 200 in fleet so that's my guess about 200 or so per phase which really sucks.. really takes the overall MMO feeling out of the game I think its an engine issue though which is even worse since it's not something they will probably ever change.
They might raise the number later.. Games usually gets more optimized as time go and as people gets better computers with more ram for that matter.
200! no way because many here claim they see 400+ in fleet all the time! I never seen more than just under 200 in fleet so that's my guess about 200 or so per phase which really sucks.. really takes the overall MMO feeling out of the game I think its an engine issue though which is even worse since it's not something they will probably ever change.
They might raise the number later.. Games usually gets more optimized as time go and as people gets better computers with more ram for that matter.
if there are even enough people around then to make it worth raising.. the other week in was questing with my sith sorc in Balmorra on prime time(Saturday Night 9PM EST) with a "heavy" server load and never saw more than 30 people on the planet.. seems pretty low for a booming new MMO
Originally posted by Metentso You realize that from those 80$ they might get 40$ net, right? Maybe even less. So it's not 160$ millions right there, rather 80$ million. And from the 15$ milion the first month you can substract a lot from costs, because you must know they said with 1M players they would me making a profit "but nothing worth writing home about". So i don't think they made even 1M at all but let's be generous and consider that they recoverd 80M + 1M total. Still 219$ million to go if you believe the 300$ million figure. 100$ million if you believe a 180M figure, etc.
That's actually 500k subs that they were talking about, making a profit but nothing worth writing home about. The 300 million dollars is just too insanely ridiculous to believe when all other AAA MMO's had budgets of 40-60 million dollars, reality check
They also mentioned something like 40% came from their Origin stores iirc, so that means that almost the full 60 dollars of those sales is net revenues.
As for operational costs, those are often a lot less than the 15 dollars a month, else games like GW couldn't have catered to hundreds of thousands of players each month without falling back on subs.
Just including some additional info :-)
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by sanosukex 200! no way because many here claim they see 400+ in fleet all the time! I never seen more than just under 200 in fleet so that's my guess about 200 or so per phase which really sucks.. really takes the overall MMO feeling out of the game I think its an engine issue though which is even worse since it's not something they will probably ever change.
They might raise the number later.. Games usually gets more optimized as time go and as people gets better computers with more ram for that matter.
if there are even enough people around then to make it worth raising.. the other week in was questing with my sith sorc in Balmorra on prime time(Saturday Night 9PM EST) with a "heavy" server load and never saw more than 30 people on the planet.. seems pretty low for a booming new MMO
If it says 'heavy', then that server has 2000+ players in total that are ingame at that moment, both factions counted. But, TOR is also a lot larger than other MMO's, so with all the planets, stations, player ships and dungeons/warzones, I can imagine that the playerbase is more spread out. Try to do a regular Who search (special tab) whenever you're curious enough next time to find out where players from your side are hanging out, it also showed me what level ranges had most players and such.
I like this game a lot . So many people give it a bad rep but I ask my self the question . When I log in do I enjoy my time in game ? Yes . Do I enjoy the content of the game ? Yes . Do I see my self playing the game long term ? I think so (unless they break it somehow).
The amount of sales don't matter to me at all . Why ? Because I am in a large guild that keeps growing with 100's of active members that I enjoy playing this game with . If the game goes belly up and they shut down the servers because there are not enough people to play the game I will play something else .
Sometimes I think all the whining pissing an moaning about the game is from the same ten people with multiple accounts that got their SWTOR accounts banned from some lame reason (that is probably their fault) and now has to rage rage rabble rabble about the game.
In the end it comes down to this
I like the game , My guild , I like the flash points and I will tolerate the pvp until they fix it. As always with mmos if I play something I like better I will go play that . Its not this hugh OMFG this game is the crappiest game ever thing I'll just quietly log off unsubscribe and get a new sub to the new game i like better .
These forums have been getting worse with each new game that is released . Do you guys not realize that 90 % of mmo gamers don't realy care about what a few people blowing stink from their butts have to say about the game they want to play
anyways after 6 months of reading BS about SWTOR I thought I would finally add my two cents .
2 million copies at an average of $80 per copy. The normal edition was less, but the digital deluxe and collector's editions were more. That's $160 million in revenue right there.
1.7 million active subscribers. Even if only 1 million of those are past the initial free month, that's another $15 million.
So in the first month alone, they've basically recouped the entire 6 years worth of development costs (or they will in another month or so).
And no other MMORPG in history has reached 1 million subscribers (3 days), or 2 million sales (5 weeks) as quickly as SW:TOR has. So I think your "expectations" are a bit unrealistic.
The fact that they've already covered 100% of their development costs, and everything from here on just continues to pay for more development (and data centers of course), means they're in a pretty darn good position. I think I'd read somewhere they only need 500k subscribers to be profitable, so at 1.7 million subs, yeah I think they're doing just fine.
Don't people have any idea on other cost than development?
Umm, 80$ per copy? Not realy, EA and BW aren't getting anything even near that. Things to consider up to 23% or more VAT depending on location, margin of retailer, wholesaler in some cases ,transport, manufacturing, license, is it gross revenue or profit, and other expences. No, you can't count whole price to EA and development...
15$ what about VAT 15% for EU and then the cost of running servers: hardware, electricity and service. Then there is customer service, billing and other costs...
It's not very straight forward to calculate without inside knowledge of MMO-bussiness...
Comments
lol ok man so you would rather pay 30 bucks a month on two sub par MMOs rather than just play the best MMO ever made and not pay a monthly sub... makes a ton of sense to me. Of COURSE you can compare B2P and P2P if they are the SAME genre! GW2 was not made to cater to just gw1 fans its a actual MMO to compete with games like wow and swtor. If it ends up being a better game than either of those then why would you continue to pay for a game that's not as good as one you don't have to pay for? what the hell kind of logic is that?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
hmm, not sure why GW2 is even in the mix, after all, its a b2p pvp game, if anything GW2's is going to be competing with Planetside 2... which will be F2P apparently, but.. GW2 is still going to be a niche game, its PVP centric which isnt to everybodies taste by any means, and before start getting quotes about dynamic events and such.. i doubt very much whether the PVE side of GW2 will be anything other than mediocre at best.. all i can say is, at the moment, SW;TOR doesnt seem to be suffering all that much, at least visibly, servers are relatively busy, and there doesnt seem to be any need for server consolidation.. yet.. so player retention for the first month at least, seems fairly solid.
Whew, not so sure about that one. There are some really lightly populated servers in this game.
They certainly won't do any server consolidation but quite frankly there are some that could use it.
EDIT: Oh let me add this now so maybe they can save themselves some time. To the poster that will feel the need to tell me how their fleet has hundreds on it and planets do too. Yeah, I know. Not saying every server. Just because yours is bustling doesn't mean they all are.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Thing is, after all the hype and a Christmas release, new players are going to be but a trickle at this stage, far out-numbered by swathes of disatisfied players leaving the game.
BW already shot themselves in the foot by producing a game that many can't play due to performance issues, even if they enjoy it. Add the players who simply don't enjoy it and others who are tired of the bugs, then more who are disgusted with the exploits and you realise why the game is already on a steep downward spiral.
The 'best MMO ever made' is kinda fanboing, don't you think? I should've thought that people with some experience would have adopted a 'wait and see' attitude these days instead of falling into the same trap over and over again.As for GW2, some people think like you, others don't, the golden rule of gaming, not every gamer is the same or treats games and their gaming the same. I can see how GW2 will keep players busy for a month or 2, but what after that, when you've reached level cap on multiple chars and seen most of all the results of Personal Story and DE's, and WvWvW and dungeons becomes your main entertainment that's left and you notice that instead of 40-80 hours a week, your GW2 gaming time has decreased to a 10, 15 hours a week?
After the first months I still played GW from time to time, but had no problem with playing other MMO's next to it. In fact, with all the interesting MMO's this year I'm kinda glad that GW2 is B2P so that I can easier play other MMO's next to it that I don't want to miss out on.edit: meh, I just realised this is in the TOR section and that it's not about the OP topic -_-
Phry think it is aswell lol
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
wasn't saying anything about gw2 being greatest game ever made was just making an example.. i'm just stating a fact if a better MMO comes out that costs nothing a month and you enjoy that game more then why would you pay money to another MMO you don't like as much. If the new B2P game is really that great I assume all your firends and such will come over to the new B2P game and then there is no reason to stay with the p2p game.. that's all im' saying
also you can't really use gw1 as an example for this since it was more of a lobby game than anything..
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
But if you're still having fun in other (P2P) MMO's with friends there, then a B2P game like GW2 is easier to combine with other MMO's just like GW was, where the game was played intensively the first months after launch and with expansions, but outside of those periods other MMO's were played and had fun with next to casually playing GW from time to time. That was my point.Which both scenarios will happen.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Well... consider the math for a moment:
2 million copies at an average of $80 per copy. The normal edition was less, but the digital deluxe and collector's editions were more. That's $160 million in revenue right there.
1.7 million active subscribers. Even if only 1 million of those are past the initial free month, that's another $15 million.
So in the first month alone, they've basically recouped the entire 6 years worth of development costs (or they will in another month or so).
And no other MMORPG in history has reached 1 million subscribers (3 days), or 2 million sales (5 weeks) as quickly as SW:TOR has. So I think your "expectations" are a bit unrealistic.
The fact that they've already covered 100% of their development costs, and everything from here on just continues to pay for more development (and data centers of course), means they're in a pretty darn good position. I think I'd read somewhere they only need 500k subscribers to be profitable, so at 1.7 million subs, yeah I think they're doing just fine.
Just did a 3mth sub, just to tie me over to Tera or GW2 launch.
I like the game enough to give it another short sub; just hoping they will fix the enormous amount of gameplay bugs by end of March. (before Easter break)
All games need support and constructive comments to succeed, they do not benefit from a huge "I want this, and I want it now" list of demands.
Changes need a lot of man power and time to deliver. So show your support !!!
wrong
you are still comparing it to GW1 which was NOT a true MMO... say blizzard released there next MMO and it was the greatest MMO ever made 100% better than wow in every single way and it was B2P you think a LOT of people would not abondon all P2P MMOs and just play that one? now of course some people will branch off and play other MMOs that fill a certain niche like i'm sure secret world and TERA and planetside 2 will since they are not just your traditional themepark BUT the issue is swtor IS your traditional themepark so if a BETTER one is released and is B2P i don't see how you can't see this will greatly effect swtor sub numbers.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I'm not following that either. How can anyone know what this game has done for the genre at this point? Outside of impressive initial sales we don't even know at this point what the general consensus is going to be for this game yet over the long haul.
Unless of course you want to cite the same yahoos that raved about Warhammer, AoC, etc. Way too early to know how SWTOR will be remembered overall from either a good or bad perspective outside the initial sales the game had. That will be.
Now whether it will be remembered as the start of a new era and behemoth of an mmo or one of the biggest drops in player populations and retainability remains to be seen.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
just going from looking at the server selection screen, you can select between European and North American servers freely, during prime time Euro zone, most servers had good populations, several full quite a few heavy, but no.. as in none.. light.. the surprising thing imo, was that even at this time, when Americans are generally otherwise occupied with work/school etc, several NA servers showed a heavy pop, although most were light.. but during NA prime time that did change dramatically.. so yes.. at the moment just going from server populations, i'd say that for the first month at least, the retention rate has been fairly solid, i do have issue with how the game handles populations though, limiting each instance to i think a maximum of around 200 players, does seem exceptionally low numbers, whether this is due to limitations of the hero engine.. i don't know.. but it does make the place look fairly empty. i think it would have been better really to change the limits on some of the areas, like the fleet hubs etc, to at least 5x that figure.. though imo, the game doesnt do itself any favours by focusing gameplay on the single player element anyway
I agree with you on this engines apparent limitation of rendering large groups of characters in one place. Maybe the Hero engine does allot of other things nicely, scripting, world building etc, but the ability to handle allot of traffic should be top priority when pickng an engine for your AAA MMO.
You again fail to see the point: personally I considered GW as much of an MMO as a DDO, but whether someone considers GW an MMO or not, by me and others it was still played next to other MMO's we subbed to. The same will happen with GW2.
Let me give another example: I occassionally hop by in LotrO and AoC from time to time to play around or meet with friends and (ex) guildies, while at the same time being subbed to another MMO. I'm glad that I'm able to, if they were still P2P I wouldn't do it, and I'm not the only one doing it like that. When AoC was still P2P I hopped into LotrO from time to time, something I wouldn't do if LotrO was P2P, then I'd be swapping subs during the year.
Better is hugely subjective: to you, it may be, to others, it might not.
Thing is, every AAA MMO release will have its influence on ALL MMO's not only TOR, certainly a GW2 that many look forward to.
However, a B2P MMO will have less impact on subs than a P2P MMO, for reasons as described above.200! no way because many here claim they see 400+ in fleet all the time! I never seen more than just under 200 in fleet so that's my guess about 200 or so per phase which really sucks.. really takes the overall MMO feeling out of the game I think its an engine issue though which is even worse since it's not something they will probably ever change.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
You realize that from those 80$ they might get 40$ net, right? Maybe even less. So it's not 160$ millions right there, rather 80$ million. And from the 15$ milion the first month you can substract a lot from costs, because you must know they said with 1M players they would me making a profit "but nothing worth writing home about". So i don't think they made even 1M at all but let's be generous and consider that they recoverd 80M + 1M total. Still 219$ million to go if you believe the 300$ million figure. 100$ million if you believe a 180M figure, etc.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
They might raise the number later.. Games usually gets more optimized as time go and as people gets better computers with more ram for that matter.
if there are even enough people around then to make it worth raising.. the other week in was questing with my sith sorc in Balmorra on prime time(Saturday Night 9PM EST) with a "heavy" server load and never saw more than 30 people on the planet.. seems pretty low for a booming new MMO
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
That's actually 500k subs that they were talking about, making a profit but nothing worth writing home about. The 300 million dollars is just too insanely ridiculous to believe when all other AAA MMO's had budgets of 40-60 million dollars, reality check
They also mentioned something like 40% came from their Origin stores iirc, so that means that almost the full 60 dollars of those sales is net revenues.As for operational costs, those are often a lot less than the 15 dollars a month, else games like GW couldn't have catered to hundreds of thousands of players each month without falling back on subs.
Just including some additional info :-)
They might raise the number later.. Games usually gets more optimized as time go and as people gets better computers with more ram for that matter.
if there are even enough people around then to make it worth raising.. the other week in was questing with my sith sorc in Balmorra on prime time(Saturday Night 9PM EST) with a "heavy" server load and never saw more than 30 people on the planet.. seems pretty low for a booming new MMO
If it says 'heavy', then that server has 2000+ players in total that are ingame at that moment, both factions counted. But, TOR is also a lot larger than other MMO's, so with all the planets, stations, player ships and dungeons/warzones, I can imagine that the playerbase is more spread out. Try to do a regular Who search (special tab) whenever you're curious enough next time to find out where players from your side are hanging out, it also showed me what level ranges had most players and such.I like this game a lot . So many people give it a bad rep but I ask my self the question . When I log in do I enjoy my time in game ? Yes . Do I enjoy the content of the game ? Yes . Do I see my self playing the game long term ? I think so (unless they break it somehow).
The amount of sales don't matter to me at all . Why ? Because I am in a large guild that keeps growing with 100's of active members that I enjoy playing this game with . If the game goes belly up and they shut down the servers because there are not enough people to play the game I will play something else .
Sometimes I think all the whining pissing an moaning about the game is from the same ten people with multiple accounts that got their SWTOR accounts banned from some lame reason (that is probably their fault) and now has to rage rage rabble rabble about the game.
In the end it comes down to this
I like the game , My guild , I like the flash points and I will tolerate the pvp until they fix it. As always with mmos if I play something I like better I will go play that . Its not this hugh OMFG this game is the crappiest game ever thing I'll just quietly log off unsubscribe and get a new sub to the new game i like better .
These forums have been getting worse with each new game that is released . Do you guys not realize that 90 % of mmo gamers don't realy care about what a few people blowing stink from their butts have to say about the game they want to play
anyways after 6 months of reading BS about SWTOR I thought I would finally add my two cents .
Don't people have any idea on other cost than development?
Umm, 80$ per copy? Not realy, EA and BW aren't getting anything even near that. Things to consider up to 23% or more VAT depending on location, margin of retailer, wholesaler in some cases ,transport, manufacturing, license, is it gross revenue or profit, and other expences. No, you can't count whole price to EA and development...
15$ what about VAT 15% for EU and then the cost of running servers: hardware, electricity and service. Then there is customer service, billing and other costs...
It's not very straight forward to calculate without inside knowledge of MMO-bussiness...