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ArenaNet is really generous o_o

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  • ariboersmaariboersma Member Posts: 1,802

    Guild Wars 1 - April 2005

    Factions - April 2006

    Nightfall - October 27th 2006

    Eye of the North - August 31 2007

     

    HOW do you get that there will be an expansion every 3-6 months?!?! Factions was a very small expansion and was mostly PVP so its understandable that the time between Factions and Nightfall were small... but a year between normal expansions isnt a huge deal >.< ...

    Stop the BS with posting that expansions will come so quickly and that is how they will make money.

    image

  • vojkan95vojkan95 Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by zephermarkus

    Originally posted by Serelisk


    Originally posted by Diminio

     

    So what your saying is there is no progression lol I really don;t get wtf u pvp for in guild wars 2 if not for gear what can u offer me that would make me wanna do pvp if it's not gear? I think alot of people are going to really displeased wiht the pvp side of things it' s being limited way to much so they can be lazy and not have to balance much. Also no raids so whats the point of gearing up in a  regular dungeon sorry but wihtout somesort of progression nobody is going to hang around long after max lvl. RThe reason they get away wiht no trinity is becasue there is no progression at max lvl or the content is super easy.

    you don't have fun while pvp ?? you pvp only for better gear ? OMG Fun is most important thing in games .  There are fps games that ppl play them with hours and not to get something but for fun ..  BUT in gw2 you are  getting rewards from pvp !

  • AvatarBladeAvatarBlade Member UncommonPosts: 757

    Originally posted by vojkan95

    Originally posted by zephermarkus


    Originally posted by Serelisk


    Originally posted by Diminio

     

    So what your saying is there is no progression lol I really don;t get wtf u pvp for in guild wars 2 if not for gear what can u offer me that would make me wanna do pvp if it's not gear? I think alot of people are going to really displeased wiht the pvp side of things it' s being limited way to much so they can be lazy and not have to balance much. Also no raids so whats the point of gearing up in a  regular dungeon sorry but wihtout somesort of progression nobody is going to hang around long after max lvl. RThe reason they get away wiht no trinity is becasue there is no progression at max lvl or the content is super easy.

    you don't have fun while pvp ?? you pvp only for better gear ? OMG Fun is most important thing in games .  There are fps games that ppl play them with hours and not to get something but for fun ..  BUT in gw2 you are  getting rewards from pvp !

    Well maybe for him, fun means getting better gear, that's one of his deffinitions for fun. To each his own.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    Originally posted by vojkan95

    Originally posted by zephermarkus

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    Originally posted by Diminio

     

    So what your saying is there is no progression lol I really don;t get wtf u pvp for in guild wars 2 if not for gear what can u offer me that would make me wanna do pvp if it's not gear? I think alot of people are going to really displeased wiht the pvp side of things it' s being limited way to much so they can be lazy and not have to balance much. Also no raids so whats the point of gearing up in a  regular dungeon sorry but wihtout somesort of progression nobody is going to hang around long after max lvl. RThe reason they get away wiht no trinity is becasue there is no progression at max lvl or the content is super easy.

    you don't have fun while pvp ?? you pvp only for better gear ? OMG Fun is most important thing in games .  There are fps games that ppl play them with hours and not to get something but for fun ..  BUT in gw2 you are  getting rewards from pvp !

     The fact that someone thinks there is no reason to do something without a carrot to chase just frames the problems with today's games and the culture they have created so well...

    Zepher's post reads like what I imagine a mouse inside a Skinner box would say if it learned how to talk.

    And Zepher, please don't take that personally.  It's just that I am very dismayed by how so many players seem to think that games are just a surrogate for the feeling of accomplishment that they aren't getting from other places.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    Originally posted by AvatarBlade

    Originally posted by vojkan95

    Originally posted by zephermarkus

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    Originally posted by Diminio

     

    So what your saying is there is no progression lol I really don;t get wtf u pvp for in guild wars 2 if not for gear what can u offer me that would make me wanna do pvp if it's not gear? I think alot of people are going to really displeased wiht the pvp side of things it' s being limited way to much so they can be lazy and not have to balance much. Also no raids so whats the point of gearing up in a  regular dungeon sorry but wihtout somesort of progression nobody is going to hang around long after max lvl. RThe reason they get away wiht no trinity is becasue there is no progression at max lvl or the content is super easy.

    you don't have fun while pvp ?? you pvp only for better gear ? OMG Fun is most important thing in games .  There are fps games that ppl play them with hours and not to get something but for fun ..  BUT in gw2 you are  getting rewards from pvp !

    Well maybe for him, fun means getting better gear, that's one of his deffinitions for fun. To each his own.

     Maybe that's true.  And you know, I love progressing too, but progression can't be the entire reason you play a game...that's called work.

    The way he wrote his post makes it seem like progression is the only reason he would ever PvP.  He says:

    So what your saying is there is no progression lol I really don;t get wtf u pvp for in guild wars 2 if not for gear what can u offer me that would make me wanna do pvp if it's not gear?

    It's like, if he's not getting gear for PvPing, then well there is no point to PvPing at all.  But this is MISSING the entire point of even playing a game.  Playing a game should be about fun.  If you're not having fun, you shouldn't be playing.  If you just see a game as a treadmill to run on in order to earn virtual "treats," then I really think you're playing it wrong.

    To put this into perspective...

    Getting treats for doing well at playing a game of football is fun.  Because football itself is fun, and the reward just adds to that fun by giving you something to strive for (like a trophy).

    Getting treats for running on a hamster wheel for 2 hours is NOT fun, because running on a hamster wheel sucks!  That's the point, rewards can be great, but if the only reason you are playing is for the reward, then there is something seriously wrong.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • ShobShob Member Posts: 21

    Well, let`s see. No end game content, no raids, no gear progression, no mounts, no group mechanics, 4 character slots, limited character customization... 

    That`s lot less content than in other MMOs. No doubt such content will be available, but for money. You want more dungeons? Buy our new xpac! You want dyes to customize your armor? Visit our shop!

  • SanHorSanHor Member UncommonPosts: 336

    How can you discuss how much content this game has when its not even out yet?

  • AvatarBladeAvatarBlade Member UncommonPosts: 757

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by AvatarBlade


    Originally posted by vojkan95


    Originally posted by zephermarkus


    Originally posted by Serelisk


    Originally posted by Diminio

     

    So what your saying is there is no progression lol I really don;t get wtf u pvp for in guild wars 2 if not for gear what can u offer me that would make me wanna do pvp if it's not gear? I think alot of people are going to really displeased wiht the pvp side of things it' s being limited way to much so they can be lazy and not have to balance much. Also no raids so whats the point of gearing up in a  regular dungeon sorry but wihtout somesort of progression nobody is going to hang around long after max lvl. RThe reason they get away wiht no trinity is becasue there is no progression at max lvl or the content is super easy.

    you don't have fun while pvp ?? you pvp only for better gear ? OMG Fun is most important thing in games .  There are fps games that ppl play them with hours and not to get something but for fun ..  BUT in gw2 you are  getting rewards from pvp !

    Well maybe for him, fun means getting better gear, that's one of his deffinitions for fun. To each his own.

     Maybe that's true.  And you know, I love progressing too, but progression can't be the entire reason you play a game...that's called work.

    The way he wrote his post makes it seem like progression is the only reason he would ever PvP.  He says:

    So what your saying is there is no progression lol I really don;t get wtf u pvp for in guild wars 2 if not for gear what can u offer me that would make me wanna do pvp if it's not gear?

    It's like, if he's not getting gear for PvPing, then well there is no point to PvPing at all.  But this is MISSING the entire point of even playing a game.  Playing a game should be about fun.  If you're not having fun, you shouldn't be playing.  If you just see a game as a treadmill to run on in order to earn virtual "treats," then I really think you're playing it wrong.

    To put this into perspective...

    Getting treats for doing well at playing a game of football is fun.  Because football itself is fun, and the reward just adds to that fun by giving you something to strive for (like a trophy).

    Getting treats for running on a hamster wheel for 2 hours is NOT fun, because running on a hamster wheel sucks!  That's the point, rewards can be great, but if the only reason you are playing is for the reward, then there is something seriously wrong.

    Well if you don't enjoy the activity and only do it for the gear/reward, don't know why you would do it. Maybe I do, but that's not a healthy way to approach things. I took it like, doing an activity you like, but also getting gear as a reward for it, while not getting a reward makes, for him, the activity somewhat less enjoyable, not that the only purpose for it is the gear. It's nice to get an extra little reward for an activity you also enjoy doing, like getting a weapon that is a bit better or with different attributes while playing BF3, for example. Might as well not do it, if you're just doing it for the reward, instead of doing it for fun while also getting an extra for it.

  • vojkan95vojkan95 Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by fiontar

    First off, I doubt there will be expansions every three months. You can't fully test an expansion in three months, let alone design and test it in three months! They managed almost yearly with GW and I'm sure they will have a similar goal this time around.

     

    they can't do expansions every three months because they aren't robots :D  they will be too busy playing the game cus its awsome :P 

  • VoiidiinVoiidiin Member Posts: 817

    Originally posted by Diminio

    Expansions will be out every 3-4 months to offset the subscription lost.

    It will work out the same as a subscription way if you want to keep up with the game and stay competative. 

    So rather than take your money by subs they will get if from expansions.

    Looking forward to it though, eyes wide open.

     

     

     

     

    While you are 100% correct in yer statement, one thing that is very important here... If ANet does have a 3-4 month expansion schedule you are not just paying to continue to play the game, you are paying for increased content every 3-4 months, something most AAA P2P subscription based games cant even boast.

     

     

    Lolipops !

  • andre369andre369 Member UncommonPosts: 970

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    It may seem generous, and Anet does look like they actually care about their game and their fans, however the reason why they put in so much stuff for such a price is eventually because they expect that will earn them a lot of money.

    The difference between Anet and other companies is that they want to make a good game for US, not just to make money. Offcourse they will make a lot of money on this one, but imagine the costs of having around 400 dev's employed for 5 years before even getting any money in. 

    If you look how passionate they are about their game it's pretty clear that they are not doing it for the money. 

  • SereliskSerelisk Member Posts: 836

    Originally posted by andre369

    The difference between Anet and other companies is that they want to make a good game for US, not just to make money. Offcourse they will make a lot of money on this one, but imagine the costs of having around 400 dev's employed for 5 years before even getting any money in. 

    If you look how passionate they are about their game it's pretty clear that they are not doing it for the money. 

    It's actually only about 270 developers, but you're right. They are very passionate.

  • RequiamerRequiamer Member Posts: 2,034

    Or maybe other developer/investor are super cheap?

  • NMStudioNMStudio Member Posts: 376

    Originally posted by andre369

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    It may seem generous, and Anet does look like they actually care about their game and their fans, however the reason why they put in so much stuff for such a price is eventually because they expect that will earn them a lot of money.

    The difference between Anet and other companies is that they want to make a good game for US, not just to make money. Offcourse they will make a lot of money on this one, but imagine the costs of having around 400 dev's employed for 5 years before even getting any money in. 

    If you look how passionate they are about their game it's pretty clear that they are not doing it for the money. 

    Seriously?  And this wasn't meant as a joke?

    NCSoft (ArenaNet is nothing but a division within NCSoft) exists for one purpose: Making money.  They want to make a game that will make them money.  They are designing a game that will get you to buy lots of shit from their cash shop, so they can still call themselves B2P.  They are no more passionate than any other dev team, you're just misguided by the obvious fanboism.

    image

  • SereliskSerelisk Member Posts: 836

    Yes, NCSoft and ArenaNet are out to make money. When I made the OP, I didn't literally mean these people were completely noble, selfless, and would make ArenaNet a non-profit game development organization if they could. It's just that the new business model they've taken since the first game is a hell of a lot less assholish about how they plan to get money from the consumer.

    The only things it seems they're really planning to stick in the cash shop are character slots, extra storage space, aesthetic stuffs and content. Content so you can enjoy more of their awesome product. And you don't need to buy this content if you don't want to because you'll never fall out of competetiveness.

    I do not see the problem in this, unless ArenaNet's going to pull a 180, gate off large portions of the 4 things I listed in the OP, and charge players out the ass just so they can enjoy their game.

    In the long term, the expectation in that Guild Wars 2 will have a ton of active players who love the game and are willing to play large sums of money for any of the completely optional fluff items in the cash shop as well as more awesome content down the line.

  • cali59cali59 Member Posts: 1,634

    Originally posted by NMStudio

    Originally posted by andre369

    Originally posted by Diovidius

    It may seem generous, and Anet does look like they actually care about their game and their fans, however the reason why they put in so much stuff for such a price is eventually because they expect that will earn them a lot of money.

    The difference between Anet and other companies is that they want to make a good game for US, not just to make money. Offcourse they will make a lot of money on this one, but imagine the costs of having around 400 dev's employed for 5 years before even getting any money in. 

    If you look how passionate they are about their game it's pretty clear that they are not doing it for the money. 

    Seriously?  And this wasn't meant as a joke?

    NCSoft (ArenaNet is nothing but a division within NCSoft) exists for one purpose: Making money.  They want to make a game that will make them money.  They are designing a game that will get you to buy lots of shit from their cash shop, so they can still call themselves B2P.  They are no more passionate than any other dev team, you're just misguided by the obvious fanboism.

     I totally believe NCSoft is only interested in making money.  However, I believe that they believe that putting out a quality product is the best way to do that.  GW2 being B2P and actually meeting expectations (instead of disappointing people) leads to a loyal fanbase who are much more inclined to tell their friends about the game and purchase expansions and cash shop items down the road.

    To serve this end I think they've hired passionate game designers at ArenaNet (supposedly its salaries are on the low end), the kind of people who work on their own time to redesign the sylvari and code up the April Fool's Day events.

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

  • ComfyChairComfyChair Member Posts: 758

    Originally posted by cali59

    Originally posted by NMStudio


    Originally posted by andre369


    Originally posted by Diovidius

    It may seem generous, and Anet does look like they actually care about their game and their fans, however the reason why they put in so much stuff for such a price is eventually because they expect that will earn them a lot of money.

    The difference between Anet and other companies is that they want to make a good game for US, not just to make money. Offcourse they will make a lot of money on this one, but imagine the costs of having around 400 dev's employed for 5 years before even getting any money in. 

    If you look how passionate they are about their game it's pretty clear that they are not doing it for the money. 

    Seriously?  And this wasn't meant as a joke?

    NCSoft (ArenaNet is nothing but a division within NCSoft) exists for one purpose: Making money.  They want to make a game that will make them money.  They are designing a game that will get you to buy lots of shit from their cash shop, so they can still call themselves B2P.  They are no more passionate than any other dev team, you're just misguided by the obvious fanboism.

     I totally believe NCSoft is only interested in making money.  However, I believe that they believe that putting out a quality product is the best way to do that.  GW2 being B2P and actually meeting expectations (instead of disappointing people) leads to a loyal fanbase who are much more inclined to tell their friends about the game and purchase expansions and cash shop items down the road.

    To serve this end I think they've hired passionate game designers at ArenaNet (supposedly its salaries are on the low end), the kind of people who work on their own time to redesign the sylvari and code up the April Fool's Day events.

    Yup, it's what people don't seem to realise, NCSoft want to make serious money in the MMO market. How do they do that? hire amazingly dedicated people to make an amazing game. Alternatively they could clone WoW, buy a popular IP, slap on some mundance feature like all quest notes are voiced, charge a sub to milk those in love with the IP and call it a day.

    Seriously, anyone who's played GW2 who thinks Arenanet themselves are after the money is talking out of their arse. Maybe they've confused 'Arenanet' with 'Bioware'. I know that A and B are close to each other in the alphabet after all.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Member UncommonPosts: 2,773
    Originally posted by ComfyChair


    Originally posted by cali59


    Originally posted by NMStudio



    Originally posted by andre369



    Originally posted by Diovidius


    It may seem generous, and Anet does look like they actually care about their game and their fans, however the reason why they put in so much stuff for such a price is eventually because they expect that will earn them a lot of money.

    The difference between Anet and other companies is that they want to make a good game for US, not just to make money. Offcourse they will make a lot of money on this one, but imagine the costs of having around 400 dev's employed for 5 years before even getting any money in. 

    If you look how passionate they are about their game it's pretty clear that they are not doing it for the money. 

    Seriously?  And this wasn't meant as a joke?

    NCSoft (ArenaNet is nothing but a division within NCSoft) exists for one purpose: Making money.  They want to make a game that will make them money.  They are designing a game that will get you to buy lots of shit from their cash shop, so they can still call themselves B2P.  They are no more passionate than any other dev team, you're just misguided by the obvious fanboism.

     I totally believe NCSoft is only interested in making money.  However, I believe that they believe that putting out a quality product is the best way to do that.  GW2 being B2P and actually meeting expectations (instead of disappointing people) leads to a loyal fanbase who are much more inclined to tell their friends about the game and purchase expansions and cash shop items down the road.

    To serve this end I think they've hired passionate game designers at ArenaNet (supposedly its salaries are on the low end), the kind of people who work on their own time to redesign the sylvari and code up the April Fool's Day events.

    Yup, it's what people don't seem to realise, NCSoft want to make serious money in the MMO market. How do they do that? hire amazingly dedicated people to make an amazing game. Alternatively they could clone WoW, buy a popular IP, slap on some mundance feature like all quest notes are voiced, charge a sub to milk those in love with the IP and call it a day.

    Seriously, anyone who's played GW2 who thinks Arenanet themselves are after the money is talking out of their arse. Maybe they've confused 'Arenanet' with 'Bioware'. I know that A and B are close to each other in the alphabet after all.

     

    Lol I can't or haven't seen anyone who has played at last years events think other wise maybe at 2010 but 2011 was a big difference and is really what you could say an actual alpha due to the changes. But yea when you play and look at everything you can tell ANET isn't trying to bullshit. I mean shit look at their cities alone or let's go a little lower the tutorial itself lol. It's so ridiculous and obvious how much they are putting effort into the game. They literally could have if they wanted to, keep the world static and have quest hubs and what not. They taking risks lol.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • LittlebombLittlebomb Member Posts: 152

    i think you're underestimating the b2p model.

     

    I don't even play League of Legends that much but I've still dropped tons of cash on skins and champions.

    If they have cool armor, pets, cosmetics....etc, I will be spending money.

    I mean people spend tons of money on skins for LOL and your champion is 1 inch tall.......hahahah.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722

    @OP

    because the game has so many goodies and content it doesnt mean there has to be monthly fees. ANET will hopefully prove that monthly fees are not necessary when you can have a good for the price of the box (plus expansions).

    They are not allergic to money, they just dont believe subscriptions are the way to go, and i support that.

    Subscription = greed





  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722

    Originally posted by Diminio

    Expansions will be out every 3-4 months to offset the subscription lost.

    It will work out the same as a subscription way if you want to keep up with the game and stay competative. 

    So rather than take your money by subs they will get if from expansions.

    Looking forward to it though, eyes wide open.

     

     

    i prefer this way a million times over subscriptions, because i can play whenever i want and stop playing whenever i want without the rest of my sub days being wasted. If ANET pull this off ill never pay a sub again in my entire life.





  • evictonevicton Member Posts: 398

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by Diminio

    Expansions will be out every 3-4 months to offset the subscription lost.

    It will work out the same as a subscription way if you want to keep up with the game and stay competative. 

    So rather than take your money by subs they will get if from expansions.

    Looking forward to it though, eyes wide open.

     

     

    i prefer this way a million times over subscriptions, because i can play whenever i want and stop playing whenever i want without the rest of my sub days being wasted. If ANET pull this off ill never pay a sub again in my entire life.

    Well thats certainly a pro to the b2p model it is also a con. I've never subbed to rift but if I decided to I would instantly have axcess to all the content they have released since the game has launched without spending a penny more. Now say I decide to wait a year for Gw2. To get axcess to all the content I would normally get buy paying 15 bucks, I may have to buy anywhere from 2-4 expansions. It always gets me when people say well if your bored you can wait a few months and come back and pay nothing, if your comming back to see new content and that content costs money how is that possible.

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Member CommonPosts: 2,898

    Judging from the OP it seems that you guys have been without a serious MMO in so long that you take the slightest things and blow them out of proportion.

    Meaning, all those things in GW2, enough to be their own game? Maybe by WoW clone standards. WoW, and its clones, are notoriously singularly focused and small scale. WoW doesn't even have housing. In the MMO hayday, these kind of features you'd expect to see in EVERY MMO launch.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722

    Originally posted by evicton

    Originally posted by rojo6934


     

    i prefer this way a million times over subscriptions, because i can play whenever i want and stop playing whenever i want without the rest of my sub days being wasted. If ANET pull this off ill never pay a sub again in my entire life.

    Well thats certainly a pro to the b2p model it is also a con. I've never subbed to rift but if I decided to I would instantly have axcess to all the content they have released since the game has launched without spending a penny more. Now say I decide to wait a year for Gw2. To get axcess to all the content I would normally get buy paying 15 bucks, I may have to buy anywhere from 2-4 expansions. It always gets me when people say well if your bored you can wait a few months and come back and pay nothing, if your comming back to see new content and that content costs money how is that possible.

    well if you look at WoW, you still have to buy every expansion full priced for more content.. Rift has no expansions yet, they keep adding stuff to the game bit if they add an expack they would charge for it.. GW2 will charge for expacks too and still have no monthly fees. Thats where i see the greed from developers.

    You mentioned you get all content buy paying only 15 bucks and in GW2 you would have to wait a year to get all content. Thats not 100% true. GW2 will launch complete (otherwise they would not wait until finished to launch). Expansions bring new content to GW2 the same way expansion brings new content to WoW or other sub based mmos.

    In my opinion the subscriptions here in the west dug too deep into people's mind that we think it is really necessary in order to have good results. We are wrong, and ANET is commited to prove it with GW2

    :D





  • evictonevicton Member Posts: 398

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by evicton


    Originally posted by rojo6934


     

    i prefer this way a million times over subscriptions, because i can play whenever i want and stop playing whenever i want without the rest of my sub days being wasted. If ANET pull this off ill never pay a sub again in my entire life.

    Well thats certainly a pro to the b2p model it is also a con. I've never subbed to rift but if I decided to I would instantly have axcess to all the content they have released since the game has launched without spending a penny more. Now say I decide to wait a year for Gw2. To get axcess to all the content I would normally get buy paying 15 bucks, I may have to buy anywhere from 2-4 expansions. It always gets me when people say well if your bored you can wait a few months and come back and pay nothing, if your comming back to see new content and that content costs money how is that possible.

    well if you look at WoW, you still have to buy every expansion full priced for more content.. Rift has no expansions yet, they keep adding stuff to the game bit if they add an expack they would charge for it.. GW2 will charge for expacks too and still have no monthly fees. Thats where i see the greed from developers.

    You mentioned you get all content buy paying only 15 bucks and in GW2 you would have to wait a year to get all content. Thats not 100% true. GW2 will launch complete (otherwise they would not wait until finished to launch). Expansions bring new content to GW2 the same way expansion brings new content to WoW or other sub based mmos.

    In my opinion the subscriptions here in the west dug too deep into people's mind that we think it is really necessary in order to have good results. We are wrong, and ANET is commited to prove it with GW2

    :D

    You miss understood me I said if I decided to wait a year then purchased the game the possibilty of buying 2-4 expansions to get all the content for the game is still there regardless of how much content is in when they release a game.

    Using wow as an example I never purchased cata, quit after wotlk. But if I had, by now there has been how many content releases since that xpac?  and I would have axcess to them. Or look at tor, next month it will have its second major content patch. Under a b2p plan anyone who buys the box say in april would have to pay for the box, then purchase the content updates. Under a p2p plan its box and a sub.

    When its all said in done if you want to have axcess to everything the game offers your most likely not going to save money one way or another, but for late adopters its a much bigger invest to get everything the game offers.

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