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Yay no dedicated healer!!!
TheTrueKing
Member Posts: 427
Hi yall!!
King here aka TheTrueKing. I'm typically excited about the fact that no specific race or profession is a dedicated healer! WHy is this such a big deal to me? Well the answer comes in the form of my specific experiences with SPECIFIC healers in games such as Allods / Rift and / LoTro. this is not generalising ALL healers just the ones I vaguely mention or those who do not do their jobs correctly as a dedicated healer.
YAY NO Dedicated Healers!!!! Everyone will need to learn and contribute all three rolls within a given battle, Healing, Controlling and Damaging!!! Does this mean that someone will not be needed to be a full support in dungeons? NO as Mike B. talked about in BFF Report just because there is not single profession locked into specific class does not mean it wont be needed. We will need individuals to focus on support / heals but the rolls will change more interactively throughout combat.
The Following is me explaining a specific HEALER bad experience:
My latest experience with Healers was in RIFT when we relied on healers for raids. My first guild in RIFT was significantly being held back and restricted in Raid content because "Ranked Members" of the guild had crappy computers which couldn't handle loads during big battles as well as the individual wanted the easiest roll possible. They still had a difficult time realising when to not stand in the circle that caused damage... These people would put their characters face in a corner and just spam heals not able to pay attention to anything else and refused to do anything else.
They were over opiniated and bored but yet the "healer" position is all they would play and refused any other position.
These types of people made us need more healers to cover for their inadiquate skills / and computers which removed needed DPS / Tanks to fill those spots. In turn since these individuals selfishly entitled themselves to be in every raid they were allowed first pick at gear meaning the actual good gear went to a worthless player first rather then someone else which would have benefited the raid more so.
A specific explination about a specific healer who affected a specific guild:
In this case it limited that guild because of the leader feeling obligated to allow that person to keep that roll beacuse they literally couldn't play anything else and felt self entitled to make the entire guild suffer for their inabiility to refuse those people into raids when they didn't deserve to be there in the first place.. GW2 will weed these types out hopefully with this no dedicated healer class no easy mode class with limited mobility or limited needed actions in a party setting.
A specific group of us leaving a specific guild to experience a different guild with good healers:
Now a small group of us desired to see what the difference would be if we weren't hindered by this type of attitude and we joined a different guild with compitent healers... With good healers we needed less of them to do the job that wasn't possible with the previous guilds healers... Healers were required for any dungeon run and good healers made it a smooth ride for even PUG groups but bad ones forced upon everyone made for a unpleasent experience.
The previous guild couldn't complete a dungeon with max raid with bad healers yet the guild which put deserving healers in the raid could complete raid content with even less then full groups 15/20. (When I say deserving I mean capable computer and being able to realise that standing in circles of damage will kill you also not having to put your characters face into a corner and hope to gad nothing attacks you or that your party members don't go to far out of your range because you wont move.)
This made the raiding experience incredibly enjoyable because the healers did their jobs!!! YAY HEALERS!!! *****
The following in CONTEXT to the above examples with SPECIFIC HEALERS:
Now back to why am I so excited about no dedicated healer? It doesn't allow for the "hold my hind and carry me thru the game" type of player to leech thru the game and be a burden to everyone else arround them because they are to lazy to put any effort into their game play. It also doesn't force others who are good at doing the job to be stuck doing a job that typically is boring compared to all other jobs.
You no longer have to tolerate the "self entitled" person, Healer, Tank, DPS, who feels they deserve to be there without any merit IE do their job. You are going to be allowed to pick who you want to play with instead of stuck with the person you wouldn't spend 1 minute with in real life.
I have had some great experiences with dedicated healers but to not acknowledge that there have been horrible experiences with healers is foolish my personal experiences as I mentioned above make me happy that GW2 doesn't allow for this to happen.
This new system is going to make everybody in your group accountable for their actions. Therefor this will make the bad experience I describe less likely to happen.
Everyone at some point in a battle will play all rolls of healing, taking agro, controlling, and damaging. Not making any one person focus just on one specific job. This will cause what I feel 1 of 2 things to happen. People will either 1 get the hang of the multiple rolls their character can play along with the dodging skills and this player will absolutely love this game or 2 the people that made me hate dedicated healers to begin with will be weeded out and they can return to the face roll on keyboard easy mode games as mentioned above... NO more fighting for leadership in a party between tanks and healers "no I should be leader cause I'm tank" or "No I'm leader because without my heals we don't do anything" blah blah blah
Guild Wars 2 is going to be a game changer, I can't wait to start the adventure!!!
Comments
I have a strange feeling there is about to be some forum pvp going on soon.
Oh and I do agree.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
well, yea I pretty much agree. Problems you mentioned exists in all mmos with holy trninity system and it was, imho, the biggest problem in mmo design. Arenanet decided to remove that problem by kicking out the healer and tanking from the trinity, and replacing it with supporting, action combat and making all classes to be able to all roles (and by roles I mean support, dps and cc.
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If you think an enviornment in which, "I don't NEED any thing form any other player", because my self heal is the most powerfull will lead to more quality grouping.......
Ya, I got nothing.
It seems to be one of those " If I have to explain, you don't understand" things.
As I see it the real probalem there wasn´t the dedicated healer but the fact that things were so simple that you actually could complete the raids with some useless players. That is really a difficulty issue.
Still, if I was a officer those people would be kicked in an instant. The whole idea is that everyone should contribute to the guild and that lag thing sounds like a bad excuse for plain sucking at playing.
I think having no dedicated healer will feel fresh but no game can keep players who suck and leech on others away. In GW2 they will at least get worse rewards when they stand and being useless in the DEs but it wont keep them away.
Reality Check +1
What we seen from vids will groups like that wipe fast as well. Heck, almost all the vids are in story mode (easy mode) and everyone not working as a group seems to wipe anyways. Imagine to play like that in exploration mode. *Evil grin*
Killing anyone not working together might seems harch but it works... In DEs they might still be be like that though.
Yep, but these players actually were in successful raids. They wont comlpete a single dungeon like that at least in GW2.
Of course that might not stop them from trying creating many horrible PUGs.
What's with the recent resurgence of the "DOWN WITH THE HOLY TRINITY!" movement I've been seeing lately? I thought this was already known, yet so many of these threads & discussions have been popping up this week (today in particular).
Anyway I'll say this... I enjoyed healing in Rift. Especially healing during 5-man dungeons, because I could make it more challenging for myself by using a more difficult to use spec and making sure no one's throwing out support heals (no Bards for me). Well I guess I was one of the good healers, that made content more easy for the rest of the group.
But yeah, like I've said elsewhere, sure I've enjoy healing but that's because Holy Trinity combat, as a whole, is boring as f**k and playing a healer meant there was more to do & be aware of (especially when you have idiot DPS'ers in the group, who can't stay out of the poop). Glad ArenaNet are bringing a new take on group combat and maybe players will finally learn not to stand in the poop.
/wishful thinking
So the person keeping the entire group alive has no merit? What?
well the comparison wasn't to point out good and bad healers as much as to point out that Healers were needed and being forced to use them caused two different experiences. One being horrible because leaders and other officers didn't do their job and remove the useless players but felt the need to keep friendships and allow these useless players to be in the raid.
The two sides to take from this is Dedicated healing = one profession that only focuses healing can be a very very bad thing even if a good player is forced to be a dedicated healer I have found that more so that good player would rather be doing a different job but is stuck with being a full healer.
The above mentioned bad healer raid group did not complete raid content.
Nobody said that you rely ONLY on your own heals and that makes other party member heals useless or un needed.
infact its quite opposite, combined with your dodging mechanic and AOE healing / Buffs / Controls EVERYONE will need to contribute to the "Health Pool" of everyone in the party and you specifically are more accountable for your specific health pool rather then just putting your tanks face in the chest of the mob and swinging blindly in hopes your healers don't let you die.
Dodge + Heal + Buffs + Controls + Damaging as a ENTIRE GROUP and as Individual mechanic is how it will work and it will be awesome when done correctly compared to the current MMO system.
When that person who is supposed to focus on keeping the entire group alive has to face his / her character in a corner and can't avoid circles of death and can't move to heal anyone no they don't have merit and they are worthless in a raid. And the simple fact that just because they were an officer in the guild they felt they deserved the right to be there which punished EVERYONE involved... no they do not have merit to be there especially since them being there caused 19 other people to suffer.
my main topic could have easily been YAY No dedicated professions!!!
but it was easier for me to specifcally make a point with healers because of personal experience.
the main point is that nobody is going to be carried everyone will have an active roll in all parts Control, Damage, Healing, Dodging!!
I've been with groups that had bad tanks, and others with bad damage and non of them were as bad as having the above mentioned bad self entitled healers in which the leaders did nothing to improve the situation and in fact by not doing anything made many many players leave for better playing experiences. ^_^
I've gotta say, this problem of bad players ruining the experience for the rest will still be in GW2.
I can already say with a fair amount of confidence, that we will all probably have at least one experience, where we group with people trying to play like the holy trinity, and completely failing because of it. Not looking forward to that. However, I could also say that there will be a higher chance in DEs that we will have enough skilled players to balance that out. The real problem will be when PUGing PvP or dungeons. It will really be a crap-shoot as to if you have a good or a bad player on your team, and how much of a difference that will mean to the group.
I would also say that there will probably be a fair amount of players who quit the game because they are playing it wrong, and instead of realizing this just assume that the game is either too difficult or 'stupid'.
All that aside, I think you are missing the real benefits to foregoing having a dedicated healer in the group. For one, forming groups in this game should be less painful, as you can complete the content regardless of your group setup (it may be more difficult with 4 elementalists, but it can be done). And secondly, because the focus of the game isn't on tanking / repairing damage and dealing damage, you can bet you will have far more dynamic combat.
Bad players who are unwilling to make any effort to improve or unable for whatever reason will be the vast majority in any mainstream MMO unfortunately. Arenanet will probably have to cater to them, I just hope they can cater to good players aswell with different difficulty settings etc.
Honestly in most newer mmos as a healer I've also done utility, dps, and cc so I'm not real sure where everyone gets the notion that you had dedicated healers lately. Most games allowed for much more than that now a days assuming you specced for it and used the abilities. Very rarely did I have to simply focus on healing unless the shit hit the fan in pulls, players obliterate ccs, or you're facing one of those awesome bosses with damage spikes out of this world.
Anywho, since I've always done tanking and healing it will be nice to go back to more of a focus on dps as well in addition to using other tactics. Will be nice.
Does make me wonder what some players are going to do now since they can't blame their death on the tank or healer. Sooo sowwy ;_;
Wow OP, your rationale towards those that did heal in those other games is rather questionable to put it nicely. I'm sure with that attitude you must have been wonderful to be in a group with.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
You made it sound like you were refering to healers as a whole. Seems to me like you had a bad experience with a healer during a raid and now you're just taking it out on ALL healers.
GW2 gets rid of "stand in one spot spamming attacks and rely on someone else to keep me alive" style of game play. In doing so, group content and encounters are no longer designed to accomodate "Tank, spank and heal", but can be much more dynamic and a lot less predictable.
It's not that the new paradigm doesn't require people to work together. It's that it requires people to actively work together and properly adapt to an evolving tactical situation, rather than just following a static routine that requires little thought and much repetition.
A number of players are going to discover they aren't very good at cooperative, on the fly game play. Even more are going to be frustrated to find that their old tactics just don't work with this game. People willing to think, work and learn will eventually find group content in GW2 very rewarding. Others will blame the game for being too hard and will go back to playing WoW or some other status quo title; or just limit themselves to the more forgiving world PVE environment.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
This made no specific point at any specific rationale? the fact that an officer ruined everyones game play and leaders chose to do nothing about it because that officer forced everyone to tolerate their inadiquate playing? or the fact that when we were part of a group with good healers it made things incredibly easier?
What attitude?? or are you just pulling argument out of your ass to start something out of nothing?
maybe you didn't understand my rational at all? or even my reasoning but I assure you I'm a hoot to raid / game with and those who join my groups usually have the time of their lifes.. On the other hand I'm incredibly intolerant of self centered / self entitled people who don't care about ruining other peoples experiences and refuse to do anything about it.
I gave specific experiences and did not roll EVERY healer into those rolls.. no need to have needless argument just for the sake of arguing something because it simply can be argued. are there other healers? yes. can you argue the point about other professions? yes does it matter in context to this? not really but what ever.
actually if you read it in context I described two different yet connected experiences and the bad experience being specific healers and not once did I clump EVERY healer into any category. But its difficult to read in context for most people especially when its a wall o text.
Like Tazlor said already your OP was pretty much across the board not about specifics. Regardless your intention that is how it read to me and I somehow doubt I'm the only one.
Jesus, you sure are defensive.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
my OP was 1 explination of bad experience with specific healers, 2 explination of good experience with good healers, 3 explination of why I'm happy nobody is forced into a solo roll.
Most good players I dealt with didn't like being stuck in a only healing roll, even though they were good at it. So bad all around bad when done with bad players, Good players made the bad look worse annnnnd Good players usually wanted to do other jobs from time to time. now put that in context with GW2 and everyone is happy
nobody forced to only be a healer, tank, dps for entire fight.
Ok, well, to a healer your post reads like this:
Why we shouldn't have dedicated healers
1. Healers have crappy computers
2. Healers are universally allowed to suck by guild officers
3. Healers refuse to contribute anything but heals
4. Healers are over opinionated
5. Good healers make it too easy
6. Bad healers make it too hard
7. Healers are 'hold my hand' type players
Now do you see why your rationale is questionable?
This is bias, prejudice and insulting to some of us who love playing a dedicated healer class. You actually didn't define anything about what makes the 'class' un-needed, instead you listed a whole series of things bashing the type of person who chooses to play a healer. This isn't a list of healer problems. It is a list of your prejudices.
And you absolutely did roll all healers into one category. You consistanly and repeatedly refer to 'healers' being a certain way, not 'this one guy in my guild'. And even if that's what you meant, does this make sense? "Because of this one guy, I am glad all healers are gone".
But maybe you are entitled to a game with no dedicated healers. I mean, sure, you are ruining the experience for the 10% to 20% of the mmo population who choose this class, but at least you can have the experience you want.
Me? I'm fairly intolerent of self-entitled people who don't care about ruining other peoples experiences.