The OP doesn't understand the difference between an FPS game and a game with PvP. He doesn't understand one game is persistant & the other has maps 64 players. i think you are the one that didn't understand the OP, while comparing the same aspect of both games, he finds that the player versus player modes, where 64player maps largely surpass this 8v8arena battles in these so called MMORPG, are far better in FPS games than in MMORPG PvP games.
Basically the OP's argument is moot, because he is unable to decern history, progeny, nor genra... he is also unable to decern game mechanics and scope of gameplay. So sad really, that we have to sit threw this while he learns his mistakes.
I wonder if the OP played Planetside 5 years ago... or BF2142 5 years ago and can understand the difference.
i don't really care about the difference of an MMORPG and an FPS. i want my PvP to be the best possible weather i play x or y game. i don't give a rat's ass about history progeny or genra (as you put it) i just want which ever game i chose to buy to have top notch gameplay. and not some half arsed semi finished turd on a plate wether FPS or MMORPG. there is no reason why an MMOFPS can't have MW3 mechanics.
and im sure that has nothing to do with history/progeny or genra.
You would be wrong.
There is a reason. It's called latency. We do not have the technology available to the public to have true FPS combat in our MMO's in a large scale. If we could, then we would have it.
Really, its like comparing apples to oranges. Lets face it, shooters are by far the easiest game to create in terms of game mechanics and the likes. Most of the 'hard' aspects are already usually handled by the game engine with physics and the likes. With everyone essencially to get every gun at will (not forced to certain classes) balancing is no where near the level MMos have due to being restrictive on those areas. It takes far less effort in shooters to add content then in MMOs.
The OP doesn't understand the difference between an FPS game and a game with PvP. He doesn't understand one game is persistant & the other has maps 64 players. i think you are the one that didn't understand the OP, while comparing the same aspect of both games, he finds that the player versus player modes, where 64player maps largely surpass this 8v8arena battles in these so called MMORPG, are far better in FPS games than in MMORPG PvP games.
Basically the OP's argument is moot, because he is unable to decern history, progeny, nor genra... he is also unable to decern game mechanics and scope of gameplay. So sad really, that we have to sit threw this while he learns his mistakes.
I wonder if the OP played Planetside 5 years ago... or BF2142 5 years ago and can understand the difference.
i don't really care about the difference of an MMORPG and an FPS. i want my PvP to be the best possible weather i play x or y game. i don't give a rat's ass about history progeny or genra (as you put it) i just want which ever game i chose to buy to have top notch gameplay. and not some half arsed semi finished turd on a plate wether FPS or MMORPG. there is no reason why an MMOFPS can't have MW3 mechanics.
and im sure that has nothing to do with history/progeny or genra.
You would be wrong.
There is a reason. It's called latency. We do not have the technology available to the public to have true FPS combat in our MMO's in a large scale. If we could, then we would have it.
Staple this to site's front page because its true.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
When mmorpgs is compared to fps - officially I am losing all hope.
Kinda sad when nearly all and kinda all AAA mmorpg's tunnel their gameplay into instances , open world into single player and thus change themself practically into lobby game like MW3 or other fps (rts , mobas ,etc).
No wonder people don't want to pay subs for game that plays like lobby multiplayer like CoD-MW , BF3 , CS ,etc
Well kinda reason I lost willingness to play current mmorpg's.
Seriously - why even bother if they play like normal single-multi game?
Oh and I am not refusing e-sport mmorpg's to anyone - well those guys that want gameplay like from RTS / FPS ,etc in mmorpg - you will have it in GW2. Competetive e-sport arenas.
It is not bad 'per se' - what IS bad that some people want ALL mmorpg's to be like that.
And devs do half-assed "hybrids" that are not good e-sport instanced pvp games and are not good virtual worlds games as well - instead to do some e-sport mmorpg's and some virtual world in gameplay sense mmorpg's.
Trying to merge two of them together resulted in WoW and wow-clones. no more thanks.
PvP in this genre is so futile especially now that every dev has gone gear and item crazy. It was a nightmare before but it's just shy of an impossibility now with all of the factors that must be considered.
We are here because we like MMORPGs, MW3 is not a mmorpg and never will be infact its everything the majority of MMORPG players dont want to see in a MMORPG..
Also how has pvp in fps game progressed ? its still basically 1 team against another, maybe capture the flag or some other nice little features like BF series has conquest and rush but its nothing super different from the likes of DOOM.
Dont get me wrong i love FPS games, well not MW3 as it sucks donkey balls but others.. its a different type of game is quick to pick up and have a blast with your mates i play lots of BF3 and really enjoy it but not in the same way i enjoy a good mmorpg..
Please if any MMORPG devs are even reading this dont take anything from fps games, well maybe the combat and graphics hehe
If you want good PVP mmorpg games check out Darkfall, Eve and mortal online but im thinknig those wont be to your taste as you actually have to spend time playing them.. it seems you just want things instantly and thats not what a MMORPG is about.
In GW2, you will be able to fire trebuchets out of visual range at the enemies, and will need spotters to help you zero in on the targets. How cool is that?
TF2 is much better example than MW3. It has several classes with different roles depending on their weapon loadout, several game modes, and it even has a hatconomy to make longterm gameplay more interesting through avatar customization and trading.
Also the reason people flock towards mw3 is because they want something simple to play, and often times enjoy instant gratification that comes from playing against players who enjoy simple games. Also you would need a 250 on 250 game to match the technical definition of MMO. Currently you only have 32 on 32, quite a ways off from the technical defintion.
Just some clarifications for those that seem to have misinterpreted my post (some of you understood my point, some misinterpreted)
1) I think that it is a BAD thing that MMORPG PVP has basically devolved into a lobby game in over 90% of MMO's. I do not like this fact, and I do not wish for MMORPG PVP to be defined this way. But the reality is, at least 90% of PVP in MMORPG's these days (exception is EVE and a couple other niche games) are basically lobby instances. Relatively small lobby instances at that.
2) If MMORPG's really want to be lobby PVP games (which I don't want them to be), they better be ready to be compared to the traditional lobby PVP games which are FPS games. And, when you compare them feature to feature (I listed 9 features), the FPS genre is now equal to or superior in almost every way to lobby MMORPG PVP. FPS genre has actually advanced, however slowly, over the last few years while MMORPG PVP has gotten worse. Much worse.
3) And, within the FPS genre, I am not advocating that MW3 is the best. I used it as an extreme example since it is considered by many to be a shallow experience. But even this "shallow" game is a deeper PVP experience as compared to the typical instanced based MMORPG PVP, as I tried to illustrate. This is sad and pathetic, but true (in my opinion)
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
And now, expanding on my points, if MMORPG PVP developers really have gotten so utterly lazy and unimaginative that they have simplified MMORPG PVP into lobby instances, then they better at least provide an equally deep lobby experience to the modern FPS . The MMORPG PVP developer is so non-innovative and lazy (in my opinion) that they are in fact still light years from achieving the depth of some of the features in a modern FPS instance. In addition to my original 9 points:
1) Maps in modern FPS are both horizontal and vertical. You can have 3 even 4 different levels in the game where players ar above you and below you. Most MMORPG PVP instances are essentially on a 2D plane. STILL even after all these years they are on crappy 2D plane. Some have an illusion of height, like the original Doom FPS did in 1991, but are actually just 2D. Absolutelly pathetic.
2) Range in MW3 varies from melee range to short range to medium range to very very long range (even completely across the map). Most MMORPG's it is either melee range or medium range. Much more complex in an FPS.
3) Environmental surface materials in an FPS. Each material in the FPS environment has different properties that interact with your gameplay. Some are opaque and also completely stop bullets. Some are opaque but if you know someone is there, you can shoot bullets through the wall or ceiling and still kill them. Some are translucent (or have slits ln them to partially obscure vision) and some slow bullets down more or less. Some materials make louder footsteps than others. Some muffle your footstepts. MMORPG is completely inferior in this regard.
4) Gameplay changes dynamically based on certain environmental conditions in an FPS, way more complex than in an MMORPG. For instance, is the UAV/radar up or not for our team or the opponent team? If it is, you behave one way, if not, another. Is there death from the sky's roaming overhead in an FPS? If so, you better stay out of site. In an MMORPG, there really is nothing like that.
5) More maps and more gametypes in FPS. In an MMORPG there are usually less than 10 instanced maps over the entire life of the game. And each map usually supports a single game type. A modern FPS usually has at least 15 maps, with each map supporting many gametypes.
6) You can actually identify locations of people via their footsteps in an FPS, or via a glimpse through a bush or grass. And in general people don't become invisible they need to actually use the environment and move slowly to sneak up on people. MMORPG you just turn stealth on or off via a button rather than use your skill to sneak up.
7) Bodies have mass in an FPS. You can't just run through another player. Most MMORPG's still have the phantom avatar.
The more I think about it the more disgusted I am at the MMORPG developers when it comes to PVP. Not only are we getting the devolution into lobby's, they aren't even good lobby instances but superficial crap instances on par with an FPS game from around 1995. The ONLY thing better about PVP in an MMORPG these days are the skills you can choose are more diverse. Everything else: GARBAGE.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
The OP is arguing that pvp in most MMO's is shallow and stagnant. He is correct. FPS's do it better.
This is because MMO developers for the past decade or so have largely been ignoring the unique strength of MMO PvP which is the fact that it can take place in a virtual world and make a difference in terms of territory control etc.
Instead they've been making a goofy, watered down version of FPS gameplay desperately squeezed into an otherwise 'MMORPG' game. They aren't playing to the strengths of an MMO.
Hopefully games like Dominus, GW2 and Planetside 2 will re-establish what PvP can and should be.
The OP is arguing that pvp in most MMO's is shallow and stagnant. He is correct. FPS's do it better.
This is because MMO developers for the past decade or so have largely been ignoring the unique strength of MMO PvP which is the fact that it can take place in a virtual world and make a difference in terms of territory control etc.
Instead they've been making a goofy, watered down version of FPS gameplay desperately squeezed into an otherwise 'MMORPG' game. They aren't playing to the strengths of an MMO.
No shit.
People reminence about the piece of shit known as DAoC PvP or scream about how EvE Online PvP is amazing. I've got something to say: compared to BlazBlue, Street Fighter X Tekken, Counter-Strike, Modern Warfare, StarCraft 2 and many others, DAoC and EvE Online is utter shit. Both games has insane wait times required prior to engaging into a match. Even during my professional days playing DoTA, wait times would be around 10-15 minutes pre match to organize picks and bans. The shit that goes on EvE takes hours to organize.
MMO players won't learn though, they AREN'T competitive in a PvP sense way, they want time to be worth skill but skill to be worth absolutely nothing.
Yeah the standard themepark MMOs are trying to copy FPS style instant action games and this is a very very bad thing and the main reason i dont play Themepark MMOS but there are other reasons as well LOL
There are currently a few good options out there for proper MMORPG PVP..
There are still the old classics Ultima Online, Asherons Calls, Dark Age of Camelot.. I believe they are all still up and running with a semi decent population.
More recent ones are Eve, Darkfall and Mortal online they all are different from each other was well.
Eve of course being sci fi and also tab targeting but there are some massive PVP battles in that and if you like space ships then this is what you want to play for space PVP
Darkfall this has some realy fast paced PVP combat for an MMORPG with fps style controls and speed, melee, archery, magic, cannons, boats, floating tank type things. On a good populated server the PVP battles are awesome fun if your PC can handle it. Darkfall has some issues thats for sure devs are just bad and hardly talk to the community, graphics are very dated, only 1 character build that most people use and thats a hybrid do all character, since the XP weekend nearly every has a maxed character so people starting out now will enver catch up.... also the big thing is Darkfall 2.0 is coming out at some point and that will mean a character wipe.
Mortal Online is a lot slower paced than darkfall and reminds me more of a monut and blade style combat system. Again the PVP in this can be great fun and it does not take you long to get your character up to a good enough lvl. MO has issues for sure just like other games but once you get passed the first few hours its actually a really fun game.
The three companeis behind these games are all basically indie companies and started out with very little money, CCP has made a shitload of cash tho and are now capable of funding a proper AAA title from scratch.. but this kind of leads to the main problem with the MMORPG industry everyone wants to make a fast buck and they all seem to thing the way to do that is copy WOW in every way possible. The industry needs soemone to fund a proper AAA PVP orientated MMORPG if the games I mentioned above had bigger backers from the start then they would have been a lot better..
The OP is arguing that pvp in most MMO's is shallow and stagnant. He is correct. FPS's do it better.
This is because MMO developers for the past decade or so have largely been ignoring the unique strength of MMO PvP which is the fact that it can take place in a virtual world and make a difference in terms of territory control etc.
Instead they've been making a goofy, watered down version of FPS gameplay desperately squeezed into an otherwise 'MMORPG' game. They aren't playing to the strengths of an MMO.
No shit.
People reminence about the piece of shit known as DAoC PvP or scream about how EvE Online PvP is amazing. I've got something to say: compared to BlazBlue, Street Fighter X Tekken, Counter-Strike, Modern Warfare, StarCraft 2 and many others, DAoC and EvE Online is utter shit. Both games has insane wait times required prior to engaging into a match. Even during my professional days playing DoTA, wait times would be around 10-15 minutes pre match to organize picks and bans. The shit that goes on EvE takes hours to organize.
MMO players won't learn though, they AREN'T competitive in a PvP sense way, they want time to be worth skill but skill to be worth absolutely nothing.
Thats because a MMORPG is not an instant gratification game, its a game your suppose to develop your character/guild/world over time... thats the idea behind it.. if we want instant action we play FPS games and other multiplayer games... it just seems that since wow went main stream it has brought in a ton of people who just want everything instantly and nearly ever MMORPG since wow has been a copy of it..
So yes there are some amazing MMORPGs out there with amazing PVP but you dont compare it to FPS PVP as they are different games.
And now, expanding on my points, if MMORPG PVP developers really have gotten so utterly lazy and unimaginative that they have simplified MMORPG PVP into lobby instances, then they better at least provide an equally deep lobby experience to the modern FPS . The MMORPG PVP developer is so non-innovative and lazy (in my opinion) that they are in fact still light years from achieving the depth of some of the features in a modern FPS instance. In addition to my original 9 points:
1) Maps in modern FPS are both horizontal and vertical. You can have 3 even 4 different levels in the game where players ar above you and below you. Most MMORPG PVP instances are essentially on a 2D plane. STILL even after all these years they are on crappy 2D plane. Some have an illusion of height, like the original Doom FPS did in 1991, but are actually just 2D. Absolutelly pathetic.
I never gave that much thought but it is an interesting point. You do see houses and towers that have multiple stories but they're usually tiny. Bottlenecking a group of players on a flight a stairs could be interesting or frustrating depending on how you look at it.
2) Range in MW3 varies from melee range to short range to medium range to very very long range (even completely across the map). Most MMORPG's it is either melee range or medium range. Much more complex in an FPS.
You have to careful with really long range sniping in mmorpg's. Eve is the only game that comes to mind that has it. There needs to be a way for melee to close the gap or that's the only tactic that would be used.
3) Environmental surface materials in an FPS. Each material in the FPS environment has different properties that interact with your gameplay. Some are opaque and also completely stop bullets. Some are opaque but if you know someone is there, you can shoot bullets through the wall or ceiling and still kill them. Some are translucent (or have slits ln them to partially obscure vision) and some slow bullets down more or less. Some materials make louder footsteps than others. Some muffle your footstepts. MMORPG is completely inferior in this regard.
That would require too much computing power to be implemented effectively. Imagine shooting through a wooded area and the server having to calculate hitting every twig and leaf between you and your target. Now multiply that by thousands of players.
4) Gameplay changes dynamically based on certain environmental conditions in an FPS, way more complex than in an MMORPG. For instance, is the UAV/radar up or not for our team or the opponent team? If it is, you behave one way, if not, another. Is there death from the sky's roaming overhead in an FPS? If so, you better stay out of site. In an MMORPG, there really is nothing like that.
Well most mmo's are fantasy settings so radar and UAV won't exist.
5) More maps and more gametypes in FPS. In an MMORPG there are usually less than 10 instanced maps over the entire life of the game. And each map usually supports a single game type. A modern FPS usually has at least 15 maps, with each map supporting many gametypes.
I don't like instanced PvP period (I play an mmo for a reason) so the number of maps is meaningless to me.
6) You can actually identify locations of people via their footsteps in an FPS, or via a glimpse through a bush or grass. And in general people don't become invisible they need to actually use the environment and move slowly to sneak up on people. MMORPG you just turn stealth on or off via a button rather than use your skill to sneak up.
I'd love to see sound effects used as something other than fluff. Many players turn off the sound and listen to music while playing. Also now that voice comms are becoming more and more common it would be balancing act.
7) Bodies have mass in an FPS. You can't just run through another player. Most MMORPG's still have the phantom avatar.
Again depending on how it's implemented. Can you push people out of the way? I'm just thinking about somebody who wants to cause problems parking his character on a narrow bridge or hallway blocking everybody from passing. In a FFA PvP game you just kill him, in a PvE game or consenual PvP game you're stuck.
The more I think about it the more disgusted I am at the MMORPG developers when it comes to PVP. Not only are we getting the devolution into lobby's, they aren't even good lobby instances but superficial crap instances on par with an FPS game from around 1995. The ONLY thing better about PVP in an MMORPG these days are the skills you can choose are more diverse. Everything else: GARBAGE.
I want to bring the "massive" back into MMORPG's. Five man instanced dungeons, four man arenas, ten man raids, that is not massive, that is tiny.
Note: I am not a fan of the FPS genre so it's influence on rpg's really annoys me. I don't want headshots, mini games or the ADHD kids it brings with it.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
The OP is arguing that pvp in most MMO's is shallow and stagnant. He is correct. FPS's do it better.
This is because MMO developers for the past decade or so have largely been ignoring the unique strength of MMO PvP which is the fact that it can take place in a virtual world and make a difference in terms of territory control etc.
Instead they've been making a goofy, watered down version of FPS gameplay desperately squeezed into an otherwise 'MMORPG' game. They aren't playing to the strengths of an MMO.
No shit.
People reminence about the piece of shit known as DAoC PvP or scream about how EvE Online PvP is amazing. I've got something to say: compared to BlazBlue, Street Fighter X Tekken, Counter-Strike, Modern Warfare, StarCraft 2 and many others, DAoC and EvE Online is utter shit. Both games has insane wait times required prior to engaging into a match. Even during my professional days playing DoTA, wait times would be around 10-15 minutes pre match to organize picks and bans. The shit that goes on EvE takes hours to organize.
MMO players won't learn though, they AREN'T competitive in a PvP sense way, they want time to be worth skill but skill to be worth absolutely nothing.
Try organizing a fleet of 100 people. Make sure you have wing commands and boosters. Assign scouts to check the surrounding systems. Be sure you have a proper number of fast tackle, heavy tackle, bubbles, close range dps, medium range dps, logistics, webbers, ecm, cyno ships with cap ships standing by, etc, etc. Pick out your primary, secondary and tertiary target callers.
Sorry if this takes too long for your taste but some games you don't just run mindlessly into battle pretending you're Rambo. Some of us like the planning that goes into these battles.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Thats because a MMORPG is not an instant gratification game, its a game your suppose to develop your character/guild/world over time... thats the idea behind it.. if we want instant action we play FPS games and other multiplayer games... it just seems that since wow went main stream it has brought in a ton of people who just want everything instantly and nearly ever MMORPG since wow has been a copy of it..
So yes there are some amazing MMORPGs out there with amazing PVP but you dont compare it to FPS PVP as they are different games.
There is nothing MMO "supposed" to be. It is what it is and the direction is driven by player desires.
And i disagree that MMO instance pvp cannot compare to FPS pvp. In fact, FPS is heavy on trigger skill but not on strategic skill, unlike fantasy based, multiple class combat mechanics of MMORPG's instance pvp.
I want to bring the "massive" back into MMORPG's. Five man instanced dungeons, four man arenas, ten man raids, that is not massive, that is tiny.
Note: I am not a fan of the FPS genre so it's influence on rpg's really annoys me. I don't want headshots, mini games or the ADHD kids it brings with it.
I would much rather do a 10 men raid than a 100 one. It is much easier to get and coordinate 10 people than 100 and the additional 90 people do not really add to the fun for me.
I'm gonna get flamed hard on this one I'm sure, but if you break it down MW3 pretty much outdoes most standard MMO's out there regarding PVP, even if you use the typical definition of what makes a game an MMO.
Except that MW3 isn't an MMO or even MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER in any stretch of the imagination. So your point is invalid and any argument made after this ridiculous quoted post is void. As far as getting flamed, I sure hope you expected it, with an asinine statement like that.
And now, expanding on my points, if MMORPG PVP developers really have gotten so utterly lazy and unimaginative that they have simplified MMORPG PVP into lobby instances, then they better at least provide an equally deep lobby experience to the modern FPS . The MMORPG PVP developer is so non-innovative and lazy (in my opinion) that they are in fact still light years from achieving the depth of some of the features in a modern FPS instance. In addition to my original 9 points:
1) Maps in modern FPS are both horizontal and vertical. You can have 3 even 4 different levels in the game where players ar above you and below you. Most MMORPG PVP instances are essentially on a 2D plane. STILL even after all these years they are on crappy 2D plane. Some have an illusion of height, like the original Doom FPS did in 1991, but are actually just 2D. Absolutelly pathetic.
I never gave that much thought but it is an interesting point. You do see houses and towers that have multiple stories but they're usually tiny. Bottlenecking a group of players on a flight a stairs could be interesting or frustrating depending on how you look at it.
Yes, additional tactics come into play with 3D as opposed to purely open 2D maps.
2) Range in MW3 varies from melee range to short range to medium range to very very long range (even completely across the map). Most MMORPG's it is either melee range or medium range. Much more complex in an FPS.
You have to careful with really long range sniping in mmorpg's. Eve is the only game that comes to mind that has it. There needs to be a way for melee to close the gap or that's the only tactic that would be used.
It creates a balancing problem that the FPS genre has been fine tuning for years now, and it is possible to balance this. MW3 for instance mid-range assault rifles are most prominent but sniping and shotgunning is perfectly viable on many maps. You also choose your skills based on your style (you can choose skills that make you harder to be sniped for instance). This concept is possible in an MMORPG as well just needs some developer imagination.
3) Environmental surface materials in an FPS. Each material in the FPS environment has different properties that interact with your gameplay. Some are opaque and also completely stop bullets. Some are opaque but if you know someone is there, you can shoot bullets through the wall or ceiling and still kill them. Some are translucent (or have slits ln them to partially obscure vision) and some slow bullets down more or less. Some materials make louder footsteps than others. Some muffle your footstepts. MMORPG is completely inferior in this regard.
That would require too much computing power to be implemented effectively. Imagine shooting through a wooded area and the server having to calculate hitting every twig and leaf between you and your target. Now multiply that by thousands of players.
Yeah but MMORGP's don't even do this in their little 8 X 8 or 12 X 12 instances. And there are ways to push off computation to clients for some of these calculations. Balancing client versus server computation is part of what they need to do, while eliminating hacking as well of course. It is not an unsolvable problem, but MMORPG developers are technically very lazy for issues like this in my opinion.
4) Gameplay changes dynamically based on certain environmental conditions in an FPS, way more complex than in an MMORPG. For instance, is the UAV/radar up or not for our team or the opponent team? If it is, you behave one way, if not, another. Is there death from the sky's roaming overhead in an FPS? If so, you better stay out of site. In an MMORPG, there really is nothing like that.
Well most mmo's are fantasy settings so radar and UAV won't exist.
No UAV won't exist but an equivalent could such as "clairvoyance" being cast that allows the entire team to know where everybody is. And for death from above it doesn't have to be helicopter it could be a dragon for instance. I'm not saying they need to copy so superficially, but I'm just giving examples of how more advanced these things are in an modern FPS.
5) More maps and more gametypes in FPS. In an MMORPG there are usually less than 10 instanced maps over the entire life of the game. And each map usually supports a single game type. A modern FPS usually has at least 15 maps, with each map supporting many gametypes.
I don't like instanced PvP period (I play an mmo for a reason) so the number of maps is meaningless to me.
100% agree that in an MMORPG instanced PVP is lazy and doesn't really fit the genre. My point was just that, if MMORPG developers insist on being so unimaginative and lazy that all they can do is instance PVP, they should at least do a better job of it...
6) You can actually identify locations of people via their footsteps in an FPS, or via a glimpse through a bush or grass. And in general people don't become invisible they need to actually use the environment and move slowly to sneak up on people. MMORPG you just turn stealth on or off via a button rather than use your skill to sneak up.
I'd love to see sound effects used as something other than fluff. Many players turn off the sound and listen to music while playing. Also now that voice comms are becoming more and more common it would be balancing act.
Sound is a huge part of the enjoyment of an FPS. Hearing a battle across the map, or hearing footsteps behind you, or sneaking slowly so you don't make noise, all plays heavily into the tactics.
7) Bodies have mass in an FPS. You can't just run through another player. Most MMORPG's still have the phantom avatar.
Again depending on how it's implemented. Can you push people out of the way? I'm just thinking about somebody who wants to cause problems parking his character on a narrow bridge or hallway blocking everybody from passing. In a FFA PvP game you just kill him, in a PvE game or consenual PvP game you're stuck.
There are problems to solve for the developer yes, but what do they do? Just choose to do the laziest solution where nobody has any real mass. MMORPG PVP developers are just lazy.
The more I think about it the more disgusted I am at the MMORPG developers when it comes to PVP. Not only are we getting the devolution into lobby's, they aren't even good lobby instances but superficial crap instances on par with an FPS game from around 1995. The ONLY thing better about PVP in an MMORPG these days are the skills you can choose are more diverse. Everything else: GARBAGE.
I want to bring the "massive" back into MMORPG's. Five man instanced dungeons, four man arenas, ten man raids, that is not massive, that is tiny.
Note: I am not a fan of the FPS genre so it's influence on rpg's really annoys me. I don't want headshots, mini games or the ADHD kids it brings with it.
Responses in red. And yes, I too want the massive back into MMORPGs. My posts are just pointing out the insult to injury of not only is the MMORPG PVP not massive, it is not even very good for what it is trying to do which is instanced PVP.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Well, this thread is certainly a good joke... just shows where the modern generation has gone. Modern Warfare? Compared to an MMO? Hey, if you want to speak about "best MMO PVP", how about a look at Planetside? Just my two cents, it has everything you wrote in your post, and more, except for a singleplayer/coop campaign of course.
What was the maximum player limit of MW 3 again? 32? Even ArmA 2 is closer to MMO, considering that it allows was it 128+ players in PvP with a completely dynamic island, and of course score keeping, traits and levels and all can be implemented easily (If anyone would even consider coding such crap into a milsim, that is.)
I'm gonna get flamed hard on this one I'm sure, but if you break it down MW3 pretty much outdoes most standard MMO's out there regarding PVP, even if you use the typical definition of what makes a game an MMO.
Except that MW3 isn't an MMO or even MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER in any stretch of the imagination. So your point is invalid and any argument made after this ridiculous quoted post is void. As far as getting flamed, I sure hope you expected it, with an asinine statement like that.
I wish I could be this closed-minded. The world would be so much simpler.
He was explaining how when MMO pvp is instanced and similar to a multi-player FPS, it becomes a worse version of a multi-player FPS. I for one think he's right.
I love how most of the replies are based on what people imagine he's saying rather than what he's actually saying.
The OP is arguing that pvp in most MMO's is shallow and stagnant. He is correct. FPS's do it better.
This is because MMO developers for the past decade or so have largely been ignoring the unique strength of MMO PvP which is the fact that it can take place in a virtual world and make a difference in terms of territory control etc.
Instead they've been making a goofy, watered down version of FPS gameplay desperately squeezed into an otherwise 'MMORPG' game. They aren't playing to the strengths of an MMO.
No shit.
People reminence about the piece of shit known as DAoC PvP or scream about how EvE Online PvP is amazing. I've got something to say: compared to BlazBlue, Street Fighter X Tekken, Counter-Strike, Modern Warfare, StarCraft 2 and many others, DAoC and EvE Online is utter shit. Both games has insane wait times required prior to engaging into a match. Even during my professional days playing DoTA, wait times would be around 10-15 minutes pre match to organize picks and bans. The shit that goes on EvE takes hours to organize.
MMO players won't learn though, they AREN'T competitive in a PvP sense way, they want time to be worth skill but skill to be worth absolutely nothing.
Try organizing a fleet of 100 people. Make sure you have wing commands and boosters. Assign scouts to check the surrounding systems. Be sure you have a proper number of fast tackle, heavy tackle, bubbles, close range dps, medium range dps, logistics, webbers, ecm, cyno ships with cap ships standing by, etc, etc. Pick out your primary, secondary and tertiary target callers.
Sorry if this takes too long for your taste but some games you don't just run mindlessly into battle pretending you're Rambo. Some of us like the planning that goes into these battles.
I agree, and how about the political pvp that goes on in EVE, not to be found in a FPS. The political stuff - corp spies, etc is always good.
The OP is arguing that pvp in most MMO's is shallow and stagnant. He is correct. FPS's do it better.
This is because MMO developers for the past decade or so have largely been ignoring the unique strength of MMO PvP which is the fact that it can take place in a virtual world and make a difference in terms of territory control etc.
Instead they've been making a goofy, watered down version of FPS gameplay desperately squeezed into an otherwise 'MMORPG' game. They aren't playing to the strengths of an MMO.
No shit.
People reminence about the piece of shit known as DAoC PvP or scream about how EvE Online PvP is amazing. I've got something to say: compared to BlazBlue, Street Fighter X Tekken, Counter-Strike, Modern Warfare, StarCraft 2 and many others, DAoC and EvE Online is utter shit. Both games has insane wait times required prior to engaging into a match. Even during my professional days playing DoTA, wait times would be around 10-15 minutes pre match to organize picks and bans. The shit that goes on EvE takes hours to organize.
MMO players won't learn though, they AREN'T competitive in a PvP sense way, they want time to be worth skill but skill to be worth absolutely nothing.
Try organizing a fleet of 100 people. Make sure you have wing commands and boosters. Assign scouts to check the surrounding systems. Be sure you have a proper number of fast tackle, heavy tackle, bubbles, close range dps, medium range dps, logistics, webbers, ecm, cyno ships with cap ships standing by, etc, etc. Pick out your primary, secondary and tertiary target callers.
Sorry if this takes too long for your taste but some games you don't just run mindlessly into battle pretending you're Rambo. Some of us like the planning that goes into these battles.
I agree, and how about the political pvp that goes on in EVE, not to be found in a FPS. The political stuff - corp spies, etc is always good.
Yeah, that shit exists in pure PvP games, it's called drama.
And @ whoever said FPS/fighters/RTS are instant gratification; it doesn't take a day to get good at a FPS game...unless you buy some skill lol (hax)
Comments
You would be wrong.
There is a reason. It's called latency. We do not have the technology available to the public to have true FPS combat in our MMO's in a large scale. If we could, then we would have it.
How to do good PvP:
1.) Make a point and click adventure
2.) Add guns and let players shoot other players.
3.) You just got best pvp game.
Really, its like comparing apples to oranges. Lets face it, shooters are by far the easiest game to create in terms of game mechanics and the likes. Most of the 'hard' aspects are already usually handled by the game engine with physics and the likes. With everyone essencially to get every gun at will (not forced to certain classes) balancing is no where near the level MMos have due to being restrictive on those areas. It takes far less effort in shooters to add content then in MMOs.
Staple this to site's front page because its true.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
When mmorpgs is compared to fps - officially I am losing all hope.
Kinda sad when nearly all and kinda all AAA mmorpg's tunnel their gameplay into instances , open world into single player and thus change themself practically into lobby game like MW3 or other fps (rts , mobas ,etc).
No wonder people don't want to pay subs for game that plays like lobby multiplayer like CoD-MW , BF3 , CS ,etc
Well kinda reason I lost willingness to play current mmorpg's.
Seriously - why even bother if they play like normal single-multi game?
Oh and I am not refusing e-sport mmorpg's to anyone - well those guys that want gameplay like from RTS / FPS ,etc in mmorpg - you will have it in GW2. Competetive e-sport arenas.
It is not bad 'per se' - what IS bad that some people want ALL mmorpg's to be like that.
And devs do half-assed "hybrids" that are not good e-sport instanced pvp games and are not good virtual worlds games as well - instead to do some e-sport mmorpg's and some virtual world in gameplay sense mmorpg's.
Trying to merge two of them together resulted in WoW and wow-clones. no more thanks.
PvP in this genre is so futile especially now that every dev has gone gear and item crazy. It was a nightmare before but it's just shy of an impossibility now with all of the factors that must be considered.
We are here because we like MMORPGs, MW3 is not a mmorpg and never will be infact its everything the majority of MMORPG players dont want to see in a MMORPG..
Also how has pvp in fps game progressed ? its still basically 1 team against another, maybe capture the flag or some other nice little features like BF series has conquest and rush but its nothing super different from the likes of DOOM.
Dont get me wrong i love FPS games, well not MW3 as it sucks donkey balls but others.. its a different type of game is quick to pick up and have a blast with your mates i play lots of BF3 and really enjoy it but not in the same way i enjoy a good mmorpg..
Please if any MMORPG devs are even reading this dont take anything from fps games, well maybe the combat and graphics hehe
If you want good PVP mmorpg games check out Darkfall, Eve and mortal online but im thinknig those wont be to your taste as you actually have to spend time playing them.. it seems you just want things instantly and thats not what a MMORPG is about.
In GW2, you will be able to fire trebuchets out of visual range at the enemies, and will need spotters to help you zero in on the targets. How cool is that?
Oderint, dum metuant.
TF2 is much better example than MW3. It has several classes with different roles depending on their weapon loadout, several game modes, and it even has a hatconomy to make longterm gameplay more interesting through avatar customization and trading.
Two words, Spawn points.
/thread
Also the reason people flock towards mw3 is because they want something simple to play, and often times enjoy instant gratification that comes from playing against players who enjoy simple games. Also you would need a 250 on 250 game to match the technical definition of MMO. Currently you only have 32 on 32, quite a ways off from the technical defintion.
Just some clarifications for those that seem to have misinterpreted my post (some of you understood my point, some misinterpreted)
1) I think that it is a BAD thing that MMORPG PVP has basically devolved into a lobby game in over 90% of MMO's. I do not like this fact, and I do not wish for MMORPG PVP to be defined this way. But the reality is, at least 90% of PVP in MMORPG's these days (exception is EVE and a couple other niche games) are basically lobby instances. Relatively small lobby instances at that.
2) If MMORPG's really want to be lobby PVP games (which I don't want them to be), they better be ready to be compared to the traditional lobby PVP games which are FPS games. And, when you compare them feature to feature (I listed 9 features), the FPS genre is now equal to or superior in almost every way to lobby MMORPG PVP. FPS genre has actually advanced, however slowly, over the last few years while MMORPG PVP has gotten worse. Much worse.
3) And, within the FPS genre, I am not advocating that MW3 is the best. I used it as an extreme example since it is considered by many to be a shallow experience. But even this "shallow" game is a deeper PVP experience as compared to the typical instanced based MMORPG PVP, as I tried to illustrate. This is sad and pathetic, but true (in my opinion)
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
And now, expanding on my points, if MMORPG PVP developers really have gotten so utterly lazy and unimaginative that they have simplified MMORPG PVP into lobby instances, then they better at least provide an equally deep lobby experience to the modern FPS . The MMORPG PVP developer is so non-innovative and lazy (in my opinion) that they are in fact still light years from achieving the depth of some of the features in a modern FPS instance. In addition to my original 9 points:
1) Maps in modern FPS are both horizontal and vertical. You can have 3 even 4 different levels in the game where players ar above you and below you. Most MMORPG PVP instances are essentially on a 2D plane. STILL even after all these years they are on crappy 2D plane. Some have an illusion of height, like the original Doom FPS did in 1991, but are actually just 2D. Absolutelly pathetic.
2) Range in MW3 varies from melee range to short range to medium range to very very long range (even completely across the map). Most MMORPG's it is either melee range or medium range. Much more complex in an FPS.
3) Environmental surface materials in an FPS. Each material in the FPS environment has different properties that interact with your gameplay. Some are opaque and also completely stop bullets. Some are opaque but if you know someone is there, you can shoot bullets through the wall or ceiling and still kill them. Some are translucent (or have slits ln them to partially obscure vision) and some slow bullets down more or less. Some materials make louder footsteps than others. Some muffle your footstepts. MMORPG is completely inferior in this regard.
4) Gameplay changes dynamically based on certain environmental conditions in an FPS, way more complex than in an MMORPG. For instance, is the UAV/radar up or not for our team or the opponent team? If it is, you behave one way, if not, another. Is there death from the sky's roaming overhead in an FPS? If so, you better stay out of site. In an MMORPG, there really is nothing like that.
5) More maps and more gametypes in FPS. In an MMORPG there are usually less than 10 instanced maps over the entire life of the game. And each map usually supports a single game type. A modern FPS usually has at least 15 maps, with each map supporting many gametypes.
6) You can actually identify locations of people via their footsteps in an FPS, or via a glimpse through a bush or grass. And in general people don't become invisible they need to actually use the environment and move slowly to sneak up on people. MMORPG you just turn stealth on or off via a button rather than use your skill to sneak up.
7) Bodies have mass in an FPS. You can't just run through another player. Most MMORPG's still have the phantom avatar.
The more I think about it the more disgusted I am at the MMORPG developers when it comes to PVP. Not only are we getting the devolution into lobby's, they aren't even good lobby instances but superficial crap instances on par with an FPS game from around 1995. The ONLY thing better about PVP in an MMORPG these days are the skills you can choose are more diverse. Everything else: GARBAGE.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
The OP is arguing that pvp in most MMO's is shallow and stagnant. He is correct. FPS's do it better.
This is because MMO developers for the past decade or so have largely been ignoring the unique strength of MMO PvP which is the fact that it can take place in a virtual world and make a difference in terms of territory control etc.
Instead they've been making a goofy, watered down version of FPS gameplay desperately squeezed into an otherwise 'MMORPG' game. They aren't playing to the strengths of an MMO.
Hopefully games like Dominus, GW2 and Planetside 2 will re-establish what PvP can and should be.
No shit.
People reminence about the piece of shit known as DAoC PvP or scream about how EvE Online PvP is amazing. I've got something to say: compared to BlazBlue, Street Fighter X Tekken, Counter-Strike, Modern Warfare, StarCraft 2 and many others, DAoC and EvE Online is utter shit. Both games has insane wait times required prior to engaging into a match. Even during my professional days playing DoTA, wait times would be around 10-15 minutes pre match to organize picks and bans. The shit that goes on EvE takes hours to organize.
MMO players won't learn though, they AREN'T competitive in a PvP sense way, they want time to be worth skill but skill to be worth absolutely nothing.
OK i got the OP a bit wrong i guess...
Yeah the standard themepark MMOs are trying to copy FPS style instant action games and this is a very very bad thing and the main reason i dont play Themepark MMOS but there are other reasons as well LOL
There are currently a few good options out there for proper MMORPG PVP..
There are still the old classics Ultima Online, Asherons Calls, Dark Age of Camelot.. I believe they are all still up and running with a semi decent population.
More recent ones are Eve, Darkfall and Mortal online they all are different from each other was well.
Eve of course being sci fi and also tab targeting but there are some massive PVP battles in that and if you like space ships then this is what you want to play for space PVP
Darkfall this has some realy fast paced PVP combat for an MMORPG with fps style controls and speed, melee, archery, magic, cannons, boats, floating tank type things. On a good populated server the PVP battles are awesome fun if your PC can handle it. Darkfall has some issues thats for sure devs are just bad and hardly talk to the community, graphics are very dated, only 1 character build that most people use and thats a hybrid do all character, since the XP weekend nearly every has a maxed character so people starting out now will enver catch up.... also the big thing is Darkfall 2.0 is coming out at some point and that will mean a character wipe.
Mortal Online is a lot slower paced than darkfall and reminds me more of a monut and blade style combat system. Again the PVP in this can be great fun and it does not take you long to get your character up to a good enough lvl. MO has issues for sure just like other games but once you get passed the first few hours its actually a really fun game.
The three companeis behind these games are all basically indie companies and started out with very little money, CCP has made a shitload of cash tho and are now capable of funding a proper AAA title from scratch.. but this kind of leads to the main problem with the MMORPG industry everyone wants to make a fast buck and they all seem to thing the way to do that is copy WOW in every way possible. The industry needs soemone to fund a proper AAA PVP orientated MMORPG if the games I mentioned above had bigger backers from the start then they would have been a lot better..
Thats because a MMORPG is not an instant gratification game, its a game your suppose to develop your character/guild/world over time... thats the idea behind it.. if we want instant action we play FPS games and other multiplayer games... it just seems that since wow went main stream it has brought in a ton of people who just want everything instantly and nearly ever MMORPG since wow has been a copy of it..
So yes there are some amazing MMORPGs out there with amazing PVP but you dont compare it to FPS PVP as they are different games.
I want to bring the "massive" back into MMORPG's. Five man instanced dungeons, four man arenas, ten man raids, that is not massive, that is tiny.
Note: I am not a fan of the FPS genre so it's influence on rpg's really annoys me. I don't want headshots, mini games or the ADHD kids it brings with it.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Try organizing a fleet of 100 people. Make sure you have wing commands and boosters. Assign scouts to check the surrounding systems. Be sure you have a proper number of fast tackle, heavy tackle, bubbles, close range dps, medium range dps, logistics, webbers, ecm, cyno ships with cap ships standing by, etc, etc. Pick out your primary, secondary and tertiary target callers.
Sorry if this takes too long for your taste but some games you don't just run mindlessly into battle pretending you're Rambo. Some of us like the planning that goes into these battles.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
There is nothing MMO "supposed" to be. It is what it is and the direction is driven by player desires.
And i disagree that MMO instance pvp cannot compare to FPS pvp. In fact, FPS is heavy on trigger skill but not on strategic skill, unlike fantasy based, multiple class combat mechanics of MMORPG's instance pvp.
I would much rather do a 10 men raid than a 100 one. It is much easier to get and coordinate 10 people than 100 and the additional 90 people do not really add to the fun for me.
Except that MW3 isn't an MMO or even MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER in any stretch of the imagination. So your point is invalid and any argument made after this ridiculous quoted post is void. As far as getting flamed, I sure hope you expected it, with an asinine statement like that.
Responses in red. And yes, I too want the massive back into MMORPGs. My posts are just pointing out the insult to injury of not only is the MMORPG PVP not massive, it is not even very good for what it is trying to do which is instanced PVP.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Well, this thread is certainly a good joke... just shows where the modern generation has gone. Modern Warfare? Compared to an MMO? Hey, if you want to speak about "best MMO PVP", how about a look at Planetside? Just my two cents, it has everything you wrote in your post, and more, except for a singleplayer/coop campaign of course.
What was the maximum player limit of MW 3 again? 32? Even ArmA 2 is closer to MMO, considering that it allows was it 128+ players in PvP with a completely dynamic island, and of course score keeping, traits and levels and all can be implemented easily (If anyone would even consider coding such crap into a milsim, that is.)
We?re all dead, just say it.
I wish I could be this closed-minded. The world would be so much simpler.
He was explaining how when MMO pvp is instanced and similar to a multi-player FPS, it becomes a worse version of a multi-player FPS. I for one think he's right.
I love how most of the replies are based on what people imagine he's saying rather than what he's actually saying.
I agree, and how about the political pvp that goes on in EVE, not to be found in a FPS. The political stuff - corp spies, etc is always good.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Yeah, that shit exists in pure PvP games, it's called drama.
And @ whoever said FPS/fighters/RTS are instant gratification; it doesn't take a day to get good at a FPS game...unless you buy some skill lol (hax)