Having looked at the leaked current cash store items I am not happy. As not to break the rules of conduct I will not discuss them(google is your friend). I have 0 issue with cosmetic and account services but giving advanatages to those that pay over those that do not is a slippery slope for a cash shop.
The cash shop may be the undoing of this game for me if this is the direction they are going to take this game.
"...so it doesn’t really matter what is in the store, as it is also available for players who play and don’t want to spend additional money."
Wow, thats some serious "clarification" there.
I hope she didnt really realized what she said there, because if thats actually their stance on the cash shop now, then its f@acked up completely. They could put dungeon gear and all the best and rarest drops, crafting mats, practically EVERYTHING could be put in there and it "doesn't really matter" since people could buy it with gold indirectly.
It would cheapen the whole game.
How could they go out with a "clarificaton" that just makes everything more confusing?
I'll have to wait for some more (and BETTER) clarification on this.
did u miss the part where he says, "For arguments sake".
Besides, if they put dungeon gear in there, what would be the point of doing the dungeons, since u can buy it with gold ->Gem->shop
No they're not. Especially not in a game with a model like GW2s' of buying the software then no monthly fees.
Sure cash shops can BECOME bad - like with some games out there which have required purchase from them in order to progress - but they're not inherently bad.
It's not only about what they sell it's about how they sell. I'm fine with a cashshop as long as they keep it out of my everyday gaming experience. Which means I don't want constant reminders about it existing.
That's certainly a fair point and a reasonable position.
Everyone is focused on Pay-To-Win. It may not be that.
But what if it turns out to be that you have to Pay-More-Than-You-Thought-You-Would in order to get the full experience and content of the game?
THe Cash Shop doesn't have to be mandatory. But if it's just there naging at you becuse the game is designed ever so subtly different than it would have been had there not been a plan for it in the game.
Sure, you can go play the game how you want. But it's going to be noticeable without the Cash Shop.
Even if you never spend a dime, you will watch otheres that do. Your game is ever so slightly more frustrating than theirs. Just ever so slightly. Not really big enough to ruin the game for you.
But its just enough to keep that cash shop just scratching at the edge of your awareness while you play.
And that right there is where it gets ruined.
This.
It can be acceptable in a F2P game, but in a B2P? I wonder how many people will.
Having looked at the leaked current cash store items I am not happy. As not to break the rules of conduct I will not discuss them(google is your friend). I have 0 issue with cosmetic and account services but giving advanatages to those that pay over those that do not is a slippery slope for a cash shop.
The cash shop may be the undoing of this game for me if this is the direction they are going to take this game.
'Slippery slope' is a logical fallacy for a reason.
As for 'giving advantages,' it's very dependent on what you're defining as an advantage. If by 'advantages' you mean convenience items which allow people who buy them to do certain things faster, then that's a complete 'mneh.' If people want to buy something to make them level faster that's up to them, especially as PvP is all done at equivalent to level 80, without it really being an advantage over others.
Everyone is focused on Pay-To-Win. It may not be that.
But what if it turns out to be that you have to Pay-More-Than-You-Thought-You-Would in order to get the full experience and content of the game?
THe Cash Shop doesn't have to be mandatory. But if it's just there naging at you becuse the game is designed ever so subtly different than it would have been had there not been a plan for it in the game.
Sure, you can go play the game how you want. But it's going to be noticeable without the Cash Shop.
Even if you never spend a dime, you will watch otheres that do. Your game is ever so slightly more frustrating than theirs. Just ever so slightly. Not really big enough to ruin the game for you.
But its just enough to keep that cash shop just scratching at the edge of your awareness while you play.
And that right there is where it gets ruined.
This.
It can be acceptable in a F2P game, but in a B2P? I wonder how many people will.
Doesn't hold up. You can replace 'cash shop' with people being able to play for longer than you can and still end up with exactly the same argument; makes the conclusion flawed.
And to go from 'ever so slightly' to 'game is ruined' is a massive stretch.
Everyone is focused on Pay-To-Win. It may not be that.
But what if it turns out to be that you have to Pay-More-Than-You-Thought-You-Would in order to get the full experience and content of the game?
THe Cash Shop doesn't have to be mandatory. But if it's just there naging at you becuse the game is designed ever so subtly different than it would have been had there not been a plan for it in the game.
Sure, you can go play the game how you want. But it's going to be noticeable without the Cash Shop.
Even if you never spend a dime, you will watch otheres that do. Your game is ever so slightly more frustrating than theirs. Just ever so slightly. Not really big enough to ruin the game for you.
But its just enough to keep that cash shop just scratching at the edge of your awareness while you play.
And that right there is where it gets ruined.
This.
It can be acceptable in a F2P game, but in a B2P? I wonder how many people will.
Doesn't hold up. You can replace 'cash shop' with people being able to play for longer than you can and still end up with exactly the same argument; makes the conclusion flawed.
And to go from 'ever so slightly' to 'game is ruined' is a massive stretch.
You might have a point. But it's not the same thinking "that guy plays a lot, has skills, has relations with other people in a guild, has commitment". To thinking, "that guy used his CC". It's very different and the second leaves me with a sad feeling for some reason.
Everyone is focused on Pay-To-Win. It may not be that.
But what if it turns out to be that you have to Pay-More-Than-You-Thought-You-Would in order to get the full experience and content of the game?
THe Cash Shop doesn't have to be mandatory. But if it's just there naging at you becuse the game is designed ever so subtly different than it would have been had there not been a plan for it in the game.
Sure, you can go play the game how you want. But it's going to be noticeable without the Cash Shop.
Even if you never spend a dime, you will watch otheres that do. Your game is ever so slightly more frustrating than theirs. Just ever so slightly. Not really big enough to ruin the game for you.
But its just enough to keep that cash shop just scratching at the edge of your awareness while you play.
And that right there is where it gets ruined.
This.
It can be acceptable in a F2P game, but in a B2P? I wonder how many people will.
Doesn't hold up. You can replace 'cash shop' with people being able to play for longer than you can and still end up with exactly the same argument; makes the conclusion flawed.
And to go from 'ever so slightly' to 'game is ruined' is a massive stretch.
People putting in time is different then people putting in credit cards. People who work for something are far more deserving of the rewards than people who just buy them
You negative nancies are worse than lawyers trying to split hairs. It's simple, anet has clarified multiple times that there will be no advantage. In plain English. You can go ahead and try to re-interpret it however you like, from information that you don't have. But it doesn't hold a candle to what anet has said more than once. Why not simply wait to judge if they are true to their word by seeing what is in the cash shop? Or are you really chomping at the bit hoping it is really bad? Pathetic, either way.
If only I haven't seen that very arguement before.
It's not an argument.
Unlike you, I dont use conjecture and pretend that I know what the items are that are in the cash shope, and that the items in the cash shop will imbalance the game. Double logical leap there.
I think that's a hypocrytical statement. Because that's exactly what you are doing. You are pretending to know what's in there and that it's all good. Where as I am being skeptical because I do not know what is in there.
There are plenty of games with cash shops, even WOW, that have no problems whatsoever. There are also games with cash shop systems like GW2 with no problems either.
So until you know what the details are, it's pointless to claim that you know.
I am speaking out because I don't know...You are the one claming to know and that it's all fine and dandy. It may not be.
Are you being daft?
0. I never claimed to know what was in the cash shop. I only claim to know the goal of the cash shop. Let's not be a jerk and have you pretend like Anet or myself have given any specifics about what gear is being sold in there; there is no information.
1. I know what Anet said about their intent for the cash shop. It is well documented more than once. There will be no advantage to players that spend more money.
2. I know what you claim, that the cash shop will imbalance the game. You are ASSUMING many things that you dont know. Name 3 things in the cash shop that you can purchase with gems. Be specific, and also prove that they will imbalance the game.
What's that? You have nothing to compare? Well then, you should stop arguing like you know what you are talking about.
I have never made an assumption. Not once. You aren't hearing what I am saying. It is because there are no specifics that I am concerned. You however did make the same assumption you accuse me of. You cannot say with all certainty with one sentence "There won't be any advantage in the cash shop" and in the next tell me "We have no idea what will be in the cash shop" and expect me to take you seriously. It doesn't work both ways.
If you want to live in paranoia and never trust the developer, even though they have stated multiple times what I am saying, that is your perrogative. You can indead say you don't know what is being sold in the cash shop and also that the developers will make a shop that doesnt give a disadvantage.
And No, ANet didn't say they wouldn't put advantages in the cash shop. they only said it's not their philosophy.....Big difference. Sounds like semantics, but those are the exact slick loopholes corporate PR people love to use. If it sounds like I am stretching it, I'll be happy to show you that exact same sentiment stated by a certain game director from another Sub Fee based game that introduced a fully fledged cash shop. And then see those words "We will not sell power" and "Our focus is on Social and cosmetic items" twisted and how it lead to a total P2W set up. Experience is a bitch of a teacher aint it? But see, you don't have it....yet. You haven't been burned this way....yet. That's why you still believe what you read on the Internet.
Ah, the lawyer in you trying to splice "what they really said". You really need to read up on the article again, you are making it say what you want it to, not what they say.
3 things? Before I go and list the 3 things in the cash shop, I'd like you to paste my previous quotes where I discussed 3 specific items you seem bent on accusing me of where I am assuming I know what's in the shop. Then I'll be happy to explain why I think those specific item I stated in previous posts are bad. And besides, Theoretically, it could only take one item to wreck a game. However, since you brought it up......Tell me why buying gold with real money is good for a game. Oh and by the way. All the other games that had their economies trashed didn't have that gold spawn from nothing either. Someone had to earn it....all of it. No game I know of was different....That's why its called gold FARMING. and not gold spawning. So the excuse that it's ok because some player already earned it, is a lame cover up and makes me even more suspiscious.
The reality is that even you you list those things, you havent looked at what is available in those same categories in-game. And that is the point.
Blind person is blind though. Keep thinking that Anet are liars, but you are the paranoid one. You can let your worry that Anet is lying run rampant, but everything you have said is unfounded and based on pure emotion and fear. There is no fact in it.
gotta say, i didn't think anything could dampen my spirits about this game, but the fairly obvious tie between the cardassian lockboxes and the in store keys is deeply unsettling to me. i have always hated those random chests in games that can only be opened with a special key. if the store key isn't just a souped up version (maybe more uses) of a regular key, or if it isn't incredibly cheap to buy store keys with gold to gems, i am am going to be... i don't know. i know we'll only be able to see the conversion rate in game, but this developement is making me question whether i really want to prepurchase. (yes, i hate those chests that much. with the burning fires of a thousand dying suns).
this says nothing about how much they'll encourage you anyway, even if the encouragement isn't a disadvantage. i know that maybe i'm being paranoid, and i would love it if someone was able to put my fears to rest, but things seem to have gotten a little hairy over the past 24 hours.
1. The press people in the beta didn't need a cash-shop to enjoy it.
2. The press people in the beta have said that levelling up goes really quickly.
3. ArenaNet have told us that past about level 10, every level takes the same amount of time (and thus quicker than levelling up in most games).
You can have a game that progresses fast and have XP scrolls for people who want to go even faster. Look at Champions Online, that does it. My only point of confusion is the same as Champions Online - I don't see the draw to buy them. Maybe they're something that just won't see many sales, like in CO, with other, more relevant items rising up to the surface.
This is why I initially didn't believe they were in there. Not because I'm against them, but because--like CO--they're kind of pointless.
Runes of Magic and Perfect World had cash shop exactly like this at launch except those games were free yet they still made you waste insane amounts of time grinding money so you can buy cash shop currency if you wanted to afford any of these essential cash shop items. What exactly am I paying 60$ for when it's obvious their cash shop will be bringing them more than enough revenue since they're selling such overpowered items? It's obvious Resurrection Orbs will be required by players for grouping in dungeons. I'm not sure I want to buy this game anymore.
Runes of Magic and Perfect World had cash shop exactly like this at launch except those games were free yet they still made you waste insane amounts of time grinding money so you can buy cash shop currency if you wanted to afford any of these essential cash shop items. Why exactly am I paying 60$ for when it's obvious their cash shop will be bringing them more than enough revenue since they're selling such overpowered items? It's obvious Resurrection Orbs will be required by players for grouping in dungeons. I'm not sure I want to buy this game anymore.
You should definately wait until the game is out for a few months to make a decision to play or not. Why waste your money on a game when you already have questions about integrity of the devs.
The game will still be there for you if you change your mind...or perhaps another game will catch your fancy.
People were saying all day yesterday that the game is not Pay 2 Win because the best gear etc could only be obtained using karma.....
$$ --> Gems --> Karma Boost = Pay 2 Win
A couple things on this:
Karma doesn't purchase you "the best gear," it gets you "unique" gear. People keep forgetting that all max gear is, at it's base, equal. I'm also really sick of the pay 2 win phrase being used for everything. The pve in this game is a cooperative, community style and there's nothing to win. Structured pvp sets all stats equal regardless of level, Worlds there's a power cap at max. It has not been said that karma boosts of varying effectiveness nor any of the others are not available to attain ingame.
People were saying all day yesterday that the game is not Pay 2 Win because the best gear etc could only be obtained using karma.....
$$ --> Gems --> Karma Boost = Pay 2 Win
Pay to win WHAT!
Just explain us WHAT one would win?
Seriously I'm starting to get pissed over this in the meantime.
Why? Because its sickening to see so many people being totally lazy to read anything on information before they reply in a topic or even start a topic.
Instead they immediately think "HEY! I found something negative hooray! I'm the saviour of everyone now let me open their eyes!" and then jump right into it claiming stupid things like that.
GW2 has the same option GW1 had and that is creating a PVP character and jump immediately into the action with everything available for the class you choose in your inventory!
That's for people that don't wanna bother with PVE or don't wanna involve their PvE characters in pvp till they reach max level or because they want to try various classes in pvp without going through all the PvE first.
He starts the game, creates a pvp character (sylvari warrior), jumps into action.
Did he need the item shop? Did he need any extra items to do that? Did he pay to win anything?
NOPE!
Is it for you or the other guys that are whining in these threads 24/7 THAT gamebreaking if someone that can play like 1-2 hours in a weekend buys a xp or gold boost?
Why not let such people be able to be equal or have fun aswell?
It doesnt matter if they level faster or slower than you anyway cause it doesn't gives them ANY advantage towards you at all.
Karma items are UNTRADEABLE! How many times do they have to tell us that so you people can notice?
It doesnt matter if one with boost got a karma item earlier than you!
Unless of course you are jealous that he might have a shinier looking armor in this nice blue colors while you have a green or yellow one?
Really don't know whats the problem you people have here.
Time saving items are GOOD for people with less time to play.
These types of items are rather unessecary for people that have lots of time in their hands and can play daily or for many hours cause the experience line is not as curvy as it is in traditional mmos and EVERYONE involved in a dynamic event is getting its own rewards.
Please drop the traditional mmo type of thinking and look as also experience the difference first.
All the people that were in the betas or at the gamescoms here in germany didnt needed a item shop to have fun or to progress in the game either. Even those that started from scratch.
People were saying all day yesterday that the game is not Pay 2 Win because the best gear etc could only be obtained using karma.....
$$ --> Gems --> Karma Boost = Pay 2 Win
you mean pay to get slightly better gear 20% faster? not terribly scary.
EDIT: spelling
Right okay.
What % is unacceptable? Please let me know what line they can't cross with you.
instant. if you can buy the rewards immediately, then i have a problem. and only then really if the gear is much better. keep in mind that i do mind that they're selling boosts. it's just not much of a deal for me since i'm not a hyper competitive gamer.
Originally posted by feena750 Everyone who reads that already knows that Arenanet said they won't sell items that give an advantage like the uber sword of pwnage. The only people who will blow it out of proportion are those who dislike cash shops altogether and want to yell about it while fully knowing what was meant by the statement.
1) O'Brien left the door open for anything that isn't an 'unfair advantage'. Like a potion that gives just a 5% IAS/IMS for say, 30 minutes. 2) You can always get all stuff with in-game gold, so basically everything is 'fair'. 3) In competitve PvP, and high end PvE, such boosts will become a 'must use', and therefore, 'must bring'.
Originally posted by Lucioon
And since all Armor and Weapons are equal in strength, You can spent 100 dollars getting them and play for 1 hour, I can play 5 hours and buy the exact same items.
I doubt that there will be (enough) people who'll pay $1 for the amount of gold you'd get from a 3 minute stroll through the jungle. I think the rates will put you on a 2 hour farm to get a $1 equivalent in gems, or whatever the cash-shop currency will be. It's not ANet that will set these rates.
Comments
Having looked at the leaked current cash store items I am not happy. As not to break the rules of conduct I will not discuss them(google is your friend). I have 0 issue with cosmetic and account services but giving advanatages to those that pay over those that do not is a slippery slope for a cash shop.
The cash shop may be the undoing of this game for me if this is the direction they are going to take this game.
did u miss the part where he says, "For arguments sake".
Besides, if they put dungeon gear in there, what would be the point of doing the dungeons, since u can buy it with gold ->Gem->shop
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
That's certainly a fair point and a reasonable position.
This.
It can be acceptable in a F2P game, but in a B2P? I wonder how many people will.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
'Slippery slope' is a logical fallacy for a reason.
As for 'giving advantages,' it's very dependent on what you're defining as an advantage. If by 'advantages' you mean convenience items which allow people who buy them to do certain things faster, then that's a complete 'mneh.' If people want to buy something to make them level faster that's up to them, especially as PvP is all done at equivalent to level 80, without it really being an advantage over others.
Doesn't hold up. You can replace 'cash shop' with people being able to play for longer than you can and still end up with exactly the same argument; makes the conclusion flawed.
And to go from 'ever so slightly' to 'game is ruined' is a massive stretch.
You might have a point. But it's not the same thinking "that guy plays a lot, has skills, has relations with other people in a guild, has commitment". To thinking, "that guy used his CC". It's very different and the second leaves me with a sad feeling for some reason.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
any other mmo people wouldve been screaming P2Win, but its Guild Wars 2, so its ok. Tsk tsk tsk
This debate has gone on for every MMO that has gone f2p.
People putting in time is different then people putting in credit cards. People who work for something are far more deserving of the rewards than people who just buy them
I told you anet will eventually use this system to justify putting in dlc.
A year from now or roughly whenever DLCs are announced, people will be shocked and act like they had no way of seeing it coming.
Some of us saw this from a mile away.
Now they can just say "well if you want to get dlc's u can always grind gold".
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
gotta say, i didn't think anything could dampen my spirits about this game, but the fairly obvious tie between the cardassian lockboxes and the in store keys is deeply unsettling to me. i have always hated those random chests in games that can only be opened with a special key. if the store key isn't just a souped up version (maybe more uses) of a regular key, or if it isn't incredibly cheap to buy store keys with gold to gems, i am am going to be... i don't know. i know we'll only be able to see the conversion rate in game, but this developement is making me question whether i really want to prepurchase. (yes, i hate those chests that much. with the burning fires of a thousand dying suns).
EDIT: "... our core philosophy--of not requiring you to spend additional money to play the game and not making the game difficult or painful to play in order to encourage you to buy things from the store--still stands"
this says nothing about how much they'll encourage you anyway, even if the encouragement isn't a disadvantage. i know that maybe i'm being paranoid, and i would love it if someone was able to put my fears to rest, but things seem to have gotten a little hairy over the past 24 hours.
[mod edit - do not post leaks]
1. The press people in the beta didn't need a cash-shop to enjoy it.
2. The press people in the beta have said that levelling up goes really quickly.
3. ArenaNet have told us that past about level 10, every level takes the same amount of time (and thus quicker than levelling up in most games).
You can have a game that progresses fast and have XP scrolls for people who want to go even faster. Look at Champions Online, that does it. My only point of confusion is the same as Champions Online - I don't see the draw to buy them. Maybe they're something that just won't see many sales, like in CO, with other, more relevant items rising up to the surface.
This is why I initially didn't believe they were in there. Not because I'm against them, but because--like CO--they're kind of pointless.
...Seriously? I really hope they get rid of those items for obvious reasons. [mod edit]
Runes of Magic and Perfect World had cash shop exactly like this at launch except those games were free yet they still made you waste insane amounts of time grinding money so you can buy cash shop currency if you wanted to afford any of these essential cash shop items. What exactly am I paying 60$ for when it's obvious their cash shop will be bringing them more than enough revenue since they're selling such overpowered items? It's obvious Resurrection Orbs will be required by players for grouping in dungeons. I'm not sure I want to buy this game anymore.
You should definately wait until the game is out for a few months to make a decision to play or not. Why waste your money on a game when you already have questions about integrity of the devs.
The game will still be there for you if you change your mind...or perhaps another game will catch your fancy.
You have the control and power of choice.
People were saying all day yesterday that the game is not Pay 2 Win because the best gear etc could only be obtained using karma.....
$$ --> Gems --> Karma Boost = Pay 2 Win
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
you mean pay to get slightly better gear 20% faster? not terribly scary.
EDIT: spelling
A couple things on this:
Karma doesn't purchase you "the best gear," it gets you "unique" gear. People keep forgetting that all max gear is, at it's base, equal. I'm also really sick of the pay 2 win phrase being used for everything. The pve in this game is a cooperative, community style and there's nothing to win. Structured pvp sets all stats equal regardless of level, Worlds there's a power cap at max. It has not been said that karma boosts of varying effectiveness nor any of the others are not available to attain ingame.
Right okay.
What % is unacceptable? Please let me know what line they can't cross with you.
Pay to win WHAT!
Just explain us WHAT one would win?
Seriously I'm starting to get pissed over this in the meantime.
Why? Because its sickening to see so many people being totally lazy to read anything on information before they reply in a topic or even start a topic.
Instead they immediately think "HEY! I found something negative hooray! I'm the saviour of everyone now let me open their eyes!" and then jump right into it claiming stupid things like that.
GW2 has the same option GW1 had and that is creating a PVP character and jump immediately into the action with everything available for the class you choose in your inventory!
That's for people that don't wanna bother with PVE or don't wanna involve their PvE characters in pvp till they reach max level or because they want to try various classes in pvp without going through all the PvE first.
Proof?
Here you have it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-TFPFnZ3o8
He starts the game, creates a pvp character (sylvari warrior), jumps into action.
Did he need the item shop? Did he need any extra items to do that? Did he pay to win anything?
NOPE!
Is it for you or the other guys that are whining in these threads 24/7 THAT gamebreaking if someone that can play like 1-2 hours in a weekend buys a xp or gold boost?
Why not let such people be able to be equal or have fun aswell?
It doesnt matter if they level faster or slower than you anyway cause it doesn't gives them ANY advantage towards you at all.
Karma items are UNTRADEABLE! How many times do they have to tell us that so you people can notice?
It doesnt matter if one with boost got a karma item earlier than you!
Unless of course you are jealous that he might have a shinier looking armor in this nice blue colors while you have a green or yellow one?
Really don't know whats the problem you people have here.
Once again: http://www.arena.net/blog/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2
Time saving items are GOOD for people with less time to play.
These types of items are rather unessecary for people that have lots of time in their hands and can play daily or for many hours cause the experience line is not as curvy as it is in traditional mmos and EVERYONE involved in a dynamic event is getting its own rewards.
Please drop the traditional mmo type of thinking and look as also experience the difference first.
All the people that were in the betas or at the gamescoms here in germany didnt needed a item shop to have fun or to progress in the game either. Even those that started from scratch.
instant. if you can buy the rewards immediately, then i have a problem. and only then really if the gear is much better. keep in mind that i do mind that they're selling boosts. it's just not much of a deal for me since i'm not a hyper competitive gamer.
1) O'Brien left the door open for anything that isn't an 'unfair advantage'. Like a potion that gives just a 5% IAS/IMS for say, 30 minutes.
I doubt that there will be (enough) people who'll pay $1 for the amount of gold you'd get from a 3 minute stroll through the jungle. I think the rates will put you on a 2 hour farm to get a $1 equivalent in gems, or whatever the cash-shop currency will be. It's not ANet that will set these rates.2) You can always get all stuff with in-game gold, so basically everything is 'fair'.
3) In competitve PvP, and high end PvE, such boosts will become a 'must use', and therefore, 'must bring'.