RMT is wrong. As someone who ran a Diablo 2 guild for 5 years, I find it to be a watermark statement that people like me... Diablo 2 MEGAFANS are boycotting Diablo 3 over this one feature. If they made a non-RMT version, I would have preordered two CE versions. This should not be taken as a statement about Diablo 3. It is instead a statement about RMT.
Do you support Gold Farmers? Or, the company that makes the game?
As someone with the same opinion about Diablo 3's RMAH I can tell you that I do not support ANYONE who enables RMT in a game, including the developers themselves.
If that means having to avoid buying the game, regardless how good it is, then so be it. I am skipping Diablo 3 solely due to the addition of legitimate RMT in the game and I will be skipping GW2 is ArenaNet goes forwards with their blatant RMT plans.
I refuse to support companies that allow RMT with my money as it undermines the very reason I play RPGs in the first place: To earn in-game benefits throuhg in-game effort.
Originally posted by mrshroom89
If you cant beat them join them
When joining them jeopardazes the integrity of a product you expect people to pay for, no you don't.
RMT is wrong. As someone who ran a Diablo 2 guild for 5 years, I find it to be a watermark statement that people like me... Diablo 2 MEGAFANS are boycotting Diablo 3 over this one feature. If they made a non-RMT version, I would have preordered two CE versions. This should not be taken as a statement about Diablo 3. It is instead a statement about RMT.
Do you support Gold Farmers? Or, the company that makes the game?
As someone with the same opinion about Diablo 3's RMAH I can tell you that I do not support ANYONE who enables RMT in a game, including the developers themselves.
If that means having to avoid buying the game, regardless how good it is, then so be it. I am skipping Diablo 3 solely due to the addition of legitimate RMT in the game and I will be skipping GW2 is ArenaNet goes forwards with their blatant RMT plans.
I refuse to support companies that allow RMT with my money as it undermines the very reason I play RPGs in the first place: To earn in-game benefits throuhg in-game effort.
Originally posted by mrshroom89
If you cant beat them join them
When joining them jeopardazes the integrity of a product you expect people to pay for, no you don't.
While I enjoy making money through the auction house, you can sit in the corner and cry due to your misguided convictions!
While I enjoy making money through the auction house, you can sit in the corner and cry due to your misguided convictions!
And while you make 10 pennies an hour farming digital swords, I'll be enjoying making $20 at my job instead of wasting my time on a game with zero regard for it's integrity and respecting its customers.
It seems like 5 years ago, RMT was "evil" and everyone thought it was evil. It completely compromised the integrity of the game and turned it from a place where progression was earned into a place were progression was bought.
And the crazy thing is, if you would have made a thread on RMT 5 years ago, I'm reasonably certain everyone would be all gung-ho against it. I mean, people used to be so against RMT, that they would ostracize a player if they found out they were "ebayed."
Now though...everything's changed. All of a sudden, RMT is okay...and god do I hate it. It literally comprises the VERY CORE OF WHAT AN RPG IS, which is progression. The very point of an RPG (and especially and MMORPG) is to progress your character and gain power over time. WHen you can just buy that power...then what's the point? It's so ridiculous that people are okay with this.
And for everyone that think I'm just mad because people with money can buy their way to power and I won't "lord over them" anymore with my obscene time investments...I want to let you know that I NEVER spend that much time in MMORPGs compared to most people. I have only gotten max level ONCE, and that was in AoC, which I basically exploited a bug to do. I seriously don't care if people get ahead of me if they earn it...it's not a race.
No...my gripe is all about our games becoming something they were never meant to be. Your hero should become powerful because he fights, learns new techniques or spells, researches, adventures, whatever...he should NOT become more powerful because you paid $10. I mean, the idea of it is so ridiculous that it baffles my mind that people support this. I mean, can you imagine a Final Fantasy game where you can pay $10 to unlock "Meteor" at level 1 and then just pwn everything? That would be pretty stupid right? But it's really not that different from how MMORPGs with RMT work.
RMT is wrong. As someone who ran a Diablo 2 guild for 5 years, I find it to be a watermark statement that people like me... Diablo 2 MEGAFANS are boycotting Diablo 3 over this one feature. If they made a non-RMT version, I would have preordered two CE versions. This should not be taken as a statement about Diablo 3. It is instead a statement about RMT.
Do you support Gold Farmers? Or, the company that makes the game?
As someone with the same opinion about Diablo 3's RMAH I can tell you that I do not support ANYONE who enables RMT in a game, including the developers themselves.
If that means having to avoid buying the game, regardless how good it is, then so be it. I am skipping Diablo 3 solely due to the addition of legitimate RMT in the game and I will be skipping GW2 is ArenaNet goes forwards with their blatant RMT plans.
I refuse to support companies that allow RMT with my money as it undermines the very reason I play RPGs in the first place: To earn in-game benefits throuhg in-game effort.
Originally posted by mrshroom89
If you cant beat them join them
When joining them jeopardazes the integrity of a product you expect people to pay for, no you don't.
So as long as RMT doesn't exist then you are ok playing the game, regardless of what effect Gold Farmers has on the game.
RMT is wrong. As someone who ran a Diablo 2 guild for 5 years, I find it to be a watermark statement that people like me... Diablo 2 MEGAFANS are boycotting Diablo 3 over this one feature. If they made a non-RMT version, I would have preordered two CE versions. This should not be taken as a statement about Diablo 3. It is instead a statement about RMT.
Do you support Gold Farmers? Or, the company that makes the game?
As someone with the same opinion about Diablo 3's RMAH I can tell you that I do not support ANYONE who enables RMT in a game, including the developers themselves.
If that means having to avoid buying the game, regardless how good it is, then so be it. I am skipping Diablo 3 solely due to the addition of legitimate RMT in the game and I will be skipping GW2 is ArenaNet goes forwards with their blatant RMT plans.
I refuse to support companies that allow RMT with my money as it undermines the very reason I play RPGs in the first place: To earn in-game benefits throuhg in-game effort.
Originally posted by mrshroom89
If you cant beat them join them
When joining them jeopardazes the integrity of a product you expect people to pay for, no you don't.
So as long as RMT doesn't exist then you are ok playing the game, regardless of what effect Gold Farmers has on the game.
You pretty much support Gold Farmers.
Or he might hope that the publisher cracked down on RMT to ensure the integrity of the game they are selling, or that a little too simple.
Or he might hope that the publisher cracked down on RMT to ensure the integrity of the game they are selling, or that a little too simple.
Yet it has never been succesful yet. So lets be honest.
I am all for legalizing drugs, in fact it was widely proven prohibition was also a total failure, so anything that makes the black marketers life difficult, is win for me.
Still though, I won't be playing this game if they don't remove the lootbags and mystic keys crap. Talk about a slippery slope.
Or he might hope that the publisher cracked down on RMT to ensure the integrity of the game they are selling, or that a little too simple.
There comes a point where it doesn't make sense to spend lots of resources to combat RMT in a game. It is like the war on drugs; no matter how much money you throw at it, you can't stop it.
The alternative is to integrate it and make it so that the trade is regulated. For gamers, would mean less scams and hacks.
Or he might hope that the publisher cracked down on RMT to ensure the integrity of the game they are selling, or that a little too simple.
There comes a point where it doesn't make sense to spend lots of resources to combat RMT in a game. It is like the war on drugs; no matter how much money you throw at it, you can't stop it.
The alternative is to integrate it and make it so that the trade is regulated. For gamers, would mean less scams and hacks.
I do not care if people get scammed by RMTers, it might discourage people from using them. I hate the argument that RMT is wrong so it must be stopped but it's not wrong if the company does it, it's just greed, if they want to earn more money and break the integrity of the game then so be it but let's call a naked money grab a naked money grab, I will not support it.
Or he might hope that the publisher cracked down on RMT to ensure the integrity of the game they are selling, or that a little too simple.
There comes a point where it doesn't make sense to spend lots of resources to combat RMT in a game. It is like the war on drugs; no matter how much money you throw at it, you can't stop it.
The alternative is to integrate it and make it so that the trade is regulated. For gamers, would mean less scams and hacks.
I do not care if people get scammed by RMTers, it might discourage people from using them. I hate the argument that RMT is wrong so it must be stopped but it's not wrong if the company does it, it's just greed, if they want to earn more money and break the integrity of the game then so be it but let's call a naked money grab a naked money grab, I will not support it.
Yes and no, a company deciding to come up with a solution to deal with Gold farmers ruining in game econmy. I'd rather give my money to the company.
What you see as greed some of us see as some form of regulation.
Or he might hope that the publisher cracked down on RMT to ensure the integrity of the game they are selling, or that a little too simple.
There comes a point where it doesn't make sense to spend lots of resources to combat RMT in a game. It is like the war on drugs; no matter how much money you throw at it, you can't stop it.
The alternative is to integrate it and make it so that the trade is regulated. For gamers, would mean less scams and hacks.
I do not care if people get scammed by RMTers, it might discourage people from using them. I hate the argument that RMT is wrong so it must be stopped but it's not wrong if the company does it, it's just greed, if they want to earn more money and break the integrity of the game then so be it but let's call a naked money grab a naked money grab, I will not support it.
Yes and no, a company deciding to come up with a solution to deal with Gold farmers ruining in game econmy. I'd rather give my money to the company.
What you see as greed some of us see as some form of regulation.
Your stance would be acceptable if they had not been supportive of gold farming from day 1. They only ban them because they know the farmers will reopen new accounts.
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It is not nor will ever be ok with me, and that is ok because guess what GW2 fans, I am allowed to feel that way. ANET/NCSoft in my eyes are not any different the EA/Bioware in regards to maximizing profits, now we all know that is why they are in business. They want your money they could really give two craps about pre game support in the end they want your hard earned mony, the question you have to ask yourself is; Are you going to give it to them?
On top of it all they have balls to ask for a full price pre purchase to guarantee a spot in beta, I have never in my 12+ years of MMOs ever seen this done before. A $5 pre order maybe but full price to get into beta are you kidding me, then add the cash shop on top, yeah my spidey senses are tingeling something is not right here.
Drama Queen much?
Star Wars just required a full purchase in order to get in order to play earlier. Early access is normal for most games upon full purchase. What game is only doing htis for 5 bucks down? I'd love to see it.
Now, keep in mind we are not talking about a demo of the game, but a beta. MMOs dont have demos, single player games too, and i bet 99 dollars you're thinking of that.
Let's look at this logically. These guys have been toiling over a game for 5 years with no paycheck from it. They are trying thier best to not make this feel like every clone of an MMO being produced. They've done some amazing new technical stuff with graphics and load time. And yet, here you are, accusing them of somehow trying to take advantage of you because they ask you to buy the game before they give you access to the code. I believe you my friend are the one with the balls.
So are Big Macs...And when society as a whole adopts them as mainstream and consumes them daily in mass quantities, it creates a fat, lazy bloated unhealthy society who want to go buy more Big Macs rather then put in the time and effort to make a healthy meal.
You guys don't get it. It was accepted long ago that Gold Farmers ruined games.
If the government set up distribution centers where anyone could go and legally buy drugs , it would certainly hurt the drug dealers. But it would hurt society more.
So now instead of the RMT gold trading being limited to only those who have the balls to risk losing everything they worked for (Or paid for) Now the vast majority of players will be engaging in this.
Most of you have played both types of games with sanctioned RMT and games without it.
But how many of you had been playing a game for years that did not have it, suddenly implement it? And not the kind like in WoW but a real Item Shop with items that have in game effects.
I have. This is why I am so vocal. Right before my eyes, I watched how the cash shop impacted the economy. It seriously hurt peoples ability to go out and farm, it hurt people looking for groups, It hurt PVP.
The overall effect is it removes people from farming. That takes people out of all loops in the game.
Cash Shops launched from the start will have the similar effect, but instead of dragging the game down, they just prevent it from reaching it's potential.
Oh, you mean like alochol has hurt society? Or gambling? Or ciggerettes? or condoms (yeah they used to want to ban those too). Banning doesnt worked, hasn't worked in any society. It just creates a black market that encourages other crime. Legalized "sins" work. Some people die in drunk driving accidents, some people get cancerl, but the majority of us are still around, still safe and still growing. We actually can eat mcdonalds every day, and a good many people eat fast food on a regular and are in as good a shape as any. Society is only hurt if its theo nly game in town. If the only thing you had to drink was alochol, and the govt sold alochol, heck yeah it would ruin society. But you have options. You have choices. In guild wars you have choices you have options.
You don't have to worry about a game suddenly implenting it. Guild Wars 2 is being built and designed with it in mind. I'm not even sure what the point of your arguement is here. Yes, throwing something in something that doesnt belong or it wasn't designed for "can" produce failure. But, even then, there are success stories. LOTR, DND online etc. They've done it, and are still around and still have strong fanbases.
Why the heck are people so surprised by this. HOw else did they think the game would make money. They have said there'd be a cash shop from day 1. They have said from day 1 they are designing a cash shop that will not force the players to need anything, with optional things to enhance time and looks.
F'it. I tried to ignore this one... just couldn't resist.
When there are thousands of people exploiting bugs, dupes, and generally breaking a game why should I not break the RMT rule provided it saves me some time and increases my enjoyment of said game without the hamster wheel?
This argument is old and tired.
You won't change my opinion, I won't change your opinion. Moving on....
that's a good point you make. There is so much exploitation going in games it's not funny. In the end it's about having fun.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Or he might hope that the publisher cracked down on RMT to ensure the integrity of the game they are selling, or that a little too simple.
There comes a point where it doesn't make sense to spend lots of resources to combat RMT in a game. It is like the war on drugs; no matter how much money you throw at it, you can't stop it.
The alternative is to integrate it and make it so that the trade is regulated. For gamers, would mean less scams and hacks.
I do not care if people get scammed by RMTers, it might discourage people from using them. I hate the argument that RMT is wrong so it must be stopped but it's not wrong if the company does it, it's just greed, if they want to earn more money and break the integrity of the game then so be it but let's call a naked money grab a naked money grab, I will not support it.
Yes and no, a company deciding to come up with a solution to deal with Gold farmers ruining in game econmy. I'd rather give my money to the company.
What you see as greed some of us see as some form of regulation.
Your stance would be acceptable if they had not been supportive of gold farming from day 1. They only ban them because they know the farmers will reopen new accounts.
LOL, this shows how naive a lot of this "anti cashshop thinking is. Gold farmers use illegal methods of payment that will be consificated and drive other gamers away. NO company wants them. They ban IPs, but they piggy back off of other ones. That is why you see them pop up. The only way you can send gold farmers away is to make it unprofitable. If I know I can make 100 bucks an hour in Wow, and I'm only making 50 bucks an hour in guild wars cause i have to jump through more hoops, guess what I'm going to do. These gold farmers aren't trying to provide a service to the player, they are trying to make money.
It certainly isn't greed that their doing this. If they wanted to be greedy they could charge you money and have a cash shop and make you buy the game for twice the price. And I"m sure they'd rather not have to deal with the small percentage of people complaining. This is an effort to prevent the black market that is now being heavily looked at and investigated by world governments.
I could care less about RMT for gold. Just like I don't care about drug dealers. It's all the stuff that surrounds it. It's the credit card stealing, the ties to human trafficing, the links to unethical hacking. These are the problems and no game wants them associated with it. Guild Wars needs to have their own way to RMT simply to stay off the governments radar, and they've gone through painstaking methods to insure that no item is ever required (1 item should never = many hours or days of play) .
Time is a currency as much as money is. Regardless of whether you are paying for benefits, or spending a great deal of time farming those same benefits, you are still paying something.
Some people argue that a person's real world wealth should not effect their in game performance, that "skill" should be the defining factor in whether a player moves forward or not, and that "time" in place of skill is a fair trade. What I'd like to know is: how do these people account for time as a commodity? I mean... let's be realistic here. We're in an age where currency is an ambiguous term. You have monetary currencies like dollars and euros and pounds, but we now have services that ask for quite different types of payment from us more and more. Google famously offers its services for "free" in the traditional sense, but after little thought you realise that what Google offers is a service in return for a payment. Google allows you to use their services and in return you pay them in information.
What MMO developers do more and more is create games that compel players to spend more of their time in game. There are a wealth of mechanics that push players into an "all or nothing" type of game play. Daily quests are a good example of this, where players are told that by logging in every day for X amount of time to complete X amount of dailes, they will get benefits for doing so. "Spend your time in our games and we will reward you for it." This isn't developers creating enjoyable mechanics to get you to spend your time playing. These are developers creating mechancis that - psychologically - manipulate you into spending you time in game. The more time you are spending in World of Warcraft, the less time you are spending in other games, and the less likely you are to leave World of Warcraft for another game.
You are spending your time on those games, in precisely the same way people who have money chose to spend their money on those games.
How, I ask, is it even vaguely fair or balances to say that one branch of progression - time based - is OK but another - money based - is not?
"More people have time, less people have money." So what? I work a lot less than most people, but this means I have the time to make progress in these games. There are those who do not have this luxury. There are people who work 40,50+ hours a week and do not have the time to commit to endlessly playing games. There are also those, like myself, who try to limit the amont of time they play. Why should those who don't have the time or don't want to spend the time be limited because there are those who quite greedily obsess over what is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS PROGRESSION IN A GAME?
And I think that's what it comes down to, personally. For the most part gamers are playing games and getting nothing out of it besides some enjoyment. You can't, unless you are in a world first guild or are a professional gamers, put your MMO accomplishments on a CV. You can't boast about it beyond the Internet. The achievement is meaningless and is no substitute for actual progression in the real world, where your accomplishments ARE important and ARE meaningful.
So really what does it matter if Joe Bloggs purchased an item or got a leveling boost for some money?
You all have grossely misplaced your egos, I'm afraid That's all. You're all being totally irrational about the affair.
RMT is fine. Perfectly fine. In its current form it is far from exploitative. Those of you that want to spend the time doing these things can spend the time doing them. Those of you who want to buy your way to the top can do that as well. It means absolutely nothing.
It seems like 5 years ago, RMT was "evil" and everyone thought it was evil. It completely compromised the integrity of the game and turned it from a place where progression was earned into a place were progression was bought.
And the crazy thing is, if you would have made a thread on RMT 5 years ago, I'm reasonably certain everyone would be all gung-ho against it. I mean, people used to be so against RMT, that they would ostracize a player if they found out they were "ebayed."
Now though...everything's changed. All of a sudden, RMT is okay...and god do I hate it. It literally comprises the VERY CORE OF WHAT AN RPG IS, which is progression. The very point of an RPG (and especially and MMORPG) is to progress your character and gain power over time. WHen you can just buy that power...then what's the point? It's so ridiculous that people are okay with this.
And for everyone that think I'm just mad because people with money can buy their way to power and I won't "lord over them" anymore with my obscene time investments...I want to let you know that I NEVER spend that much time in MMORPGs compared to most people. I have only gotten max level ONCE, and that was in AoC, which I basically exploited a bug to do. I seriously don't care if people get ahead of me if they earn it...it's not a race.
No...my gripe is all about our games becoming something they were never meant to be. Your hero should become powerful because he fights, learns new techniques or spells, researches, adventures, whatever...he should NOT become more powerful because you paid $10. I mean, the idea of it is so ridiculous that it baffles my mind that people support this. I mean, can you imagine a Final Fantasy game where you can pay $10 to unlock "Meteor" at level 1 and then just pwn everything? That would be pretty stupid right? But it's really not that different from how MMORPGs with RMT work.
Still makes me wonder if people even know what Guild WArs 2 is.
They've said, that equipment won't matter as much, it's not an equipment based game. The only use for money is to buy euqipment.
So equipment doesnt equal power that means money doesnt equal power.
So many have been brainwashed by the design of MMOs for years, you can't even see straight. The company has said day 1 that equipment will only provide small bonuses. If johnny die hard wants a 4 percent raise in damage and he's going to pay 20 bucks for it, he's still no more powerful than you, cause you can take out the same monster.
Stop confusing the business with the business model. RMT companies are what has always been fought against, not RMT. RMT companies use illegal methods to do their business. That's the big problem.
So are Big Macs...And when society as a whole adopts them as mainstream and consumes them daily in mass quantities, it creates a fat, lazy bloated unhealthy society who want to go buy more Big Macs rather then put in the time and effort to make a healthy meal.
You guys don't get it. It was accepted long ago that Gold Farmers ruined games.
If the government set up distribution centers where anyone could go and legally buy drugs , it would certainly hurt the drug dealers. But it would hurt society more.
So now instead of the RMT gold trading being limited to only those who have the balls to risk losing everything they worked for (Or paid for) Now the vast majority of players will be engaging in this.
Most of you have played both types of games with sanctioned RMT and games without it.
But how many of you had been playing a game for years that did not have it, suddenly implement it? And not the kind like in WoW but a real Item Shop with items that have in game effects.
I have. This is why I am so vocal. Right before my eyes, I watched how the cash shop impacted the economy. It seriously hurt peoples ability to go out and farm, it hurt people looking for groups, It hurt PVP.
The overall effect is it removes people from farming. That takes people out of all loops in the game.
Cash Shops launched from the start will have the similar effect, but instead of dragging the game down, they just prevent it from reaching it's potential.
Oh, you mean like alochol has hurt society? Or gambling? Or ciggerettes? or condoms (yeah they used to want to ban those too). Banning doesnt worked, hasn't worked in any society. It just creates a black market that encourages other crime. Legalized "sins" work. Some people die in drunk driving accidents, some people get cancerl, but the majority of us are still around, still safe and still growing. We actually can eat mcdonalds every day, and a good many people eat fast food on a regular and are in as good a shape as any. Society is only hurt if its theo nly game in town. If the only thing you had to drink was alochol, and the govt sold alochol, heck yeah it would ruin society. But you have options. You have choices. In guild wars you have choices you have options.
You don't have to worry about a game suddenly implenting it. Guild Wars 2 is being built and designed with it in mind. I'm not even sure what the point of your arguement is here. Yes, throwing something in something that doesnt belong or it wasn't designed for "can" produce failure. But, even then, there are success stories. LOTR, DND online etc. They've done it, and are still around and still have strong fanbases.
Why the heck are people so surprised by this. HOw else did they think the game would make money. They have said there'd be a cash shop from day 1. They have said from day 1 they are designing a cash shop that will not force the players to need anything, with optional things to enhance time and looks.
I
I keep hering "How do you think they will make money" because evidently the Ca$h $hop is the only way to keep the servers up for poor 'ol Anet.
For starters, the Hundreds of thoudands (millions?) of digital copies @ $60.00 should help. Since they do not have to pay printing cost, labor, shipping, Physical medium (DVD) or the wages of a chain of people from the distribution, to warehousing and then retail clerks... Why are prices not dropping as more and more digital sales are replacing Box sales?
Next, how do games like NVN "make money"? The Diamond Edition of NWN1 is like $13.00 NEW , has persistant online servers (and has had them since the begining ) with no cash shop- Worked so well they made a NVN 2 (also with online persistant World)- All with no monthly fee.
I also play multi-player games on the PSN for FREE. As often as I would like
I also have played a plethora of multiplayer online games which also were free from Civ 4 to Half-life...
You people bringing up Vice laws (like legal drugs) are so not understanding the complete difrences here (I am a member of NORML btw)- We protest against the prohibition of something far safer than the Legal alternatives (safer than asprin) and that a man or woman can have their door KICKED IN by thugs with GUNS who will drag them off to a cell... Beyond that, I dont know many (other than Hardcore Libertarians) who want "all drugs legal"... This is "Legalized cheating" and if folks were being imprisoned for buying Gold, I would try to reform these stupid laws.
People are not being jailed (or anything else) for Gold buying...In fact, the proof is, LEGAL GOLD is far more expensive that ILLEGAL GOLD (because greedy companie want their cut)
MY PROOF (sorry cannot link to Goldsellers)- EQ2 has a server will players can buy and selll gold/items for REAL MONEY. This is an official SOE EQ2 server (google it). Look at the prices for Gold (note SOE "taxes" the sale)- Now google "Buy Gold on X server) and BAM.... Almost 50% less... BUT (here is the catch) you can be BANNED if you buy Gold from an "outside" (read: NON TAXED) source.
So, by your philosophy, what happens when Gold Sellers undercut the in game (allowable) prices for items/gems/etc? Will Anet aggresivly pursue these outside forces? OR will they allow you to "shop around" for the best deal? ???? I know the answer.
-And finally, there is something called "Creeping incrimentalism" . All this support over RMT these last few years has allowed games to move towards a sub (or box sale) PLUS RMT... Real Money should never be mixed in with gaming... Period.
And as another brought up- Botting needs to be legal as well under the current line of reasoning.
-They wil keep pushing the envolope because YOU will keep defending them and using their Cash Shops.
It's not that I don't like RMT, it's that I don't understand it. Whats the point of having a game and then not playing it? Isn't the point of playing these games to try and create your own character, your own unique power set, your own wealth? Why would I buy someone elses level 50? I thought the fun part of the game was getting there yourself. I have fun in the lower levels, I have fun crafting my own stuff, I enjoy the challenge of trying to decide what to spend what little gold I may have on the things I really need. The only problem I have ever really had in an MMO is building a nerfed character. As for the RMT stuff, If you don't like playing the game maybe you should be spending your real money on something you really enjoy.
I know this is a little out of place "The only problem I have ever really had in an MMO is building a nerfed character ". But, damn, I hate when this happens.
Still makes me wonder if people even know what Guild WArs 2 is.
They've said, that equipment won't matter as much, it's not an equipment based game. The only use for money is to buy euqipment.
So equipment doesnt equal power that means money doesnt equal power.
So many have been brainwashed by the design of MMOs for years, you can't even see straight. The company has said day 1 that equipment will only provide small bonuses. If johnny die hard wants a 4 percent raise in damage and he's going to pay 20 bucks for it, he's still no more powerful than you, cause you can take out the same monster.
Stop confusing the business with the business model. RMT companies are what has always been fought against, not RMT. RMT companies use illegal methods to do their business. That's the big problem.
First of all, stop being so naive. ArenaNet themselves have told us that gear WILL matter, it just won't be the end-all be-all that it is in other games. In addition, gear properties such as stat distribution, set bonuses and weapon modifiers have been claimed by ArenaNet to be an essential part of your builds.
Secondly, your final sentence is simply not true. RMT itself was viewed as inherently unfair to the playerbase and that's why there was a blanket ban on it. Why else do you think player-to-player RMT (i.e. without third party sites being involved)was also banned?
If it was true that they only reason RMT was banned because of gold-selling companies then player-to-player RMT would have been allowed.
Originally posted by StoneRoses
So as long as RMT doesn't exist then you are ok playing the game, regardless of what effect Gold Farmers has on the game.
You pretty much support Gold Farmers.
Fail logic is fail.
If RMT doesn't exist in a game then neither do gold sellers. What you just said is equivalent to:
"So as long as cheating doesn't exist then you are ok playing the game, regardless of what effect cheaters have on the game"
Still makes me wonder if people even know what Guild WArs 2 is.
They've said, that equipment won't matter as much, it's not an equipment based game. The only use for money is to buy euqipment.
So equipment doesnt equal power that means money doesnt equal power.
So many have been brainwashed by the design of MMOs for years, you can't even see straight. The company has said day 1 that equipment will only provide small bonuses. If johnny die hard wants a 4 percent raise in damage and he's going to pay 20 bucks for it, he's still no more powerful than you, cause you can take out the same monster.
Stop confusing the business with the business model. RMT companies are what has always been fought against, not RMT. RMT companies use illegal methods to do their business. That's the big problem.
First of all, stop being so naive. ArenaNet themselves have told us that gear WILL matter, it just won't be the end-all be-all that it is in other games. In addition, gear properties such as stat distribution, set bonuses and weapon modifiers have been claimed by ArenaNet to be an essential part of your builds.
Secondly, your final sentence is simply not true. RMT itself was viewed as inherently unfair to the playerbase and that's why there was a blanket ban on it. Why else do you think player-to-player RMT (i.e. without third party sites being involved)was also banned?
If it was true that they only reason RMT was banned because of gold-selling companies then player-to-player RMT would have been allowed.
Originally posted by StoneRoses
So as long as RMT doesn't exist then you are ok playing the game, regardless of what effect Gold Farmers has on the game.
You pretty much support Gold Farmers.
Fail logic is fail.
If RMT doesn't exist in a game then neither do gold sellers. What you just said is equivalent to:
"So as long as cheating doesn't exist then you are ok playing the game, regardless of what effect cheaters have on the game"
RMT completely obliterates the immersiveness and integrety of the world people want to build or play in.
Let's get real, the publishers start selling gold themself because they want money. It have nothing to do with illegal RMT. They just try to find every excuse possible to justify them doing it.
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If you cant beat them join them
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What he said!
As someone with the same opinion about Diablo 3's RMAH I can tell you that I do not support ANYONE who enables RMT in a game, including the developers themselves.
If that means having to avoid buying the game, regardless how good it is, then so be it. I am skipping Diablo 3 solely due to the addition of legitimate RMT in the game and I will be skipping GW2 is ArenaNet goes forwards with their blatant RMT plans.
I refuse to support companies that allow RMT with my money as it undermines the very reason I play RPGs in the first place: To earn in-game benefits throuhg in-game effort.
When joining them jeopardazes the integrity of a product you expect people to pay for, no you don't.
While I enjoy making money through the auction house, you can sit in the corner and cry due to your misguided convictions!
And while you make 10 pennies an hour farming digital swords, I'll be enjoying making $20 at my job instead of wasting my time on a game with zero regard for it's integrity and respecting its customers.
OP, I totally agree with you.
It seems like 5 years ago, RMT was "evil" and everyone thought it was evil. It completely compromised the integrity of the game and turned it from a place where progression was earned into a place were progression was bought.
And the crazy thing is, if you would have made a thread on RMT 5 years ago, I'm reasonably certain everyone would be all gung-ho against it. I mean, people used to be so against RMT, that they would ostracize a player if they found out they were "ebayed."
Now though...everything's changed. All of a sudden, RMT is okay...and god do I hate it. It literally comprises the VERY CORE OF WHAT AN RPG IS, which is progression. The very point of an RPG (and especially and MMORPG) is to progress your character and gain power over time. WHen you can just buy that power...then what's the point? It's so ridiculous that people are okay with this.
And for everyone that think I'm just mad because people with money can buy their way to power and I won't "lord over them" anymore with my obscene time investments...I want to let you know that I NEVER spend that much time in MMORPGs compared to most people. I have only gotten max level ONCE, and that was in AoC, which I basically exploited a bug to do. I seriously don't care if people get ahead of me if they earn it...it's not a race.
No...my gripe is all about our games becoming something they were never meant to be. Your hero should become powerful because he fights, learns new techniques or spells, researches, adventures, whatever...he should NOT become more powerful because you paid $10. I mean, the idea of it is so ridiculous that it baffles my mind that people support this. I mean, can you imagine a Final Fantasy game where you can pay $10 to unlock "Meteor" at level 1 and then just pwn everything? That would be pretty stupid right? But it's really not that different from how MMORPGs with RMT work.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
So as long as RMT doesn't exist then you are ok playing the game, regardless of what effect Gold Farmers has on the game.
You pretty much support Gold Farmers.
Do you support Gold Farmers? Or, the company that makes the game?
As someone with the same opinion about Diablo 3's RMAH I can tell you that I do not support ANYONE who enables RMT in a game, including the developers themselves.
If that means having to avoid buying the game, regardless how good it is, then so be it. I am skipping Diablo 3 solely due to the addition of legitimate RMT in the game and I will be skipping GW2 is ArenaNet goes forwards with their blatant RMT plans.
I refuse to support companies that allow RMT with my money as it undermines the very reason I play RPGs in the first place: To earn in-game benefits throuhg in-game effort.
When joining them jeopardazes the integrity of a product you expect people to pay for, no you don't.
So as long as RMT doesn't exist then you are ok playing the game, regardless of what effect Gold Farmers has on the game.
You pretty much support Gold Farmers.
Or he might hope that the publisher cracked down on RMT to ensure the integrity of the game they are selling, or that a little too simple.Yet it has never been succesful yet. So lets be honest.
I am all for legalizing drugs, in fact it was widely proven prohibition was also a total failure, so anything that makes the black marketers life difficult, is win for me.
Still though, I won't be playing this game if they don't remove the lootbags and mystic keys crap. Talk about a slippery slope.
There comes a point where it doesn't make sense to spend lots of resources to combat RMT in a game. It is like the war on drugs; no matter how much money you throw at it, you can't stop it.
The alternative is to integrate it and make it so that the trade is regulated. For gamers, would mean less scams and hacks.
There comes a point where it doesn't make sense to spend lots of resources to combat RMT in a game. It is like the war on drugs; no matter how much money you throw at it, you can't stop it.
The alternative is to integrate it and make it so that the trade is regulated. For gamers, would mean less scams and hacks.
I do not care if people get scammed by RMTers, it might discourage people from using them. I hate the argument that RMT is wrong so it must be stopped but it's not wrong if the company does it, it's just greed, if they want to earn more money and break the integrity of the game then so be it but let's call a naked money grab a naked money grab, I will not support it.Yes and no, a company deciding to come up with a solution to deal with Gold farmers ruining in game econmy. I'd rather give my money to the company.
What you see as greed some of us see as some form of regulation.
Your stance would be acceptable if they had not been supportive of gold farming from day 1. They only ban them because they know the farmers will reopen new accounts.
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Drama Queen much?
Star Wars just required a full purchase in order to get in order to play earlier. Early access is normal for most games upon full purchase. What game is only doing htis for 5 bucks down? I'd love to see it.
Now, keep in mind we are not talking about a demo of the game, but a beta. MMOs dont have demos, single player games too, and i bet 99 dollars you're thinking of that.
Let's look at this logically. These guys have been toiling over a game for 5 years with no paycheck from it. They are trying thier best to not make this feel like every clone of an MMO being produced. They've done some amazing new technical stuff with graphics and load time. And yet, here you are, accusing them of somehow trying to take advantage of you because they ask you to buy the game before they give you access to the code. I believe you my friend are the one with the balls.
Oh, you mean like alochol has hurt society? Or gambling? Or ciggerettes? or condoms (yeah they used to want to ban those too). Banning doesnt worked, hasn't worked in any society. It just creates a black market that encourages other crime. Legalized "sins" work. Some people die in drunk driving accidents, some people get cancerl, but the majority of us are still around, still safe and still growing. We actually can eat mcdonalds every day, and a good many people eat fast food on a regular and are in as good a shape as any. Society is only hurt if its theo nly game in town. If the only thing you had to drink was alochol, and the govt sold alochol, heck yeah it would ruin society. But you have options. You have choices. In guild wars you have choices you have options.
You don't have to worry about a game suddenly implenting it. Guild Wars 2 is being built and designed with it in mind. I'm not even sure what the point of your arguement is here. Yes, throwing something in something that doesnt belong or it wasn't designed for "can" produce failure. But, even then, there are success stories. LOTR, DND online etc. They've done it, and are still around and still have strong fanbases.
Why the heck are people so surprised by this. HOw else did they think the game would make money. They have said there'd be a cash shop from day 1. They have said from day 1 they are designing a cash shop that will not force the players to need anything, with optional things to enhance time and looks.
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that's a good point you make. There is so much exploitation going in games it's not funny. In the end it's about having fun.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
LOL, this shows how naive a lot of this "anti cashshop thinking is. Gold farmers use illegal methods of payment that will be consificated and drive other gamers away. NO company wants them. They ban IPs, but they piggy back off of other ones. That is why you see them pop up. The only way you can send gold farmers away is to make it unprofitable. If I know I can make 100 bucks an hour in Wow, and I'm only making 50 bucks an hour in guild wars cause i have to jump through more hoops, guess what I'm going to do. These gold farmers aren't trying to provide a service to the player, they are trying to make money.
It certainly isn't greed that their doing this. If they wanted to be greedy they could charge you money and have a cash shop and make you buy the game for twice the price. And I"m sure they'd rather not have to deal with the small percentage of people complaining. This is an effort to prevent the black market that is now being heavily looked at and investigated by world governments.
I could care less about RMT for gold. Just like I don't care about drug dealers. It's all the stuff that surrounds it. It's the credit card stealing, the ties to human trafficing, the links to unethical hacking. These are the problems and no game wants them associated with it. Guild Wars needs to have their own way to RMT simply to stay off the governments radar, and they've gone through painstaking methods to insure that no item is ever required (1 item should never = many hours or days of play) .
Time is a currency as much as money is. Regardless of whether you are paying for benefits, or spending a great deal of time farming those same benefits, you are still paying something.
Some people argue that a person's real world wealth should not effect their in game performance, that "skill" should be the defining factor in whether a player moves forward or not, and that "time" in place of skill is a fair trade. What I'd like to know is: how do these people account for time as a commodity? I mean... let's be realistic here. We're in an age where currency is an ambiguous term. You have monetary currencies like dollars and euros and pounds, but we now have services that ask for quite different types of payment from us more and more. Google famously offers its services for "free" in the traditional sense, but after little thought you realise that what Google offers is a service in return for a payment. Google allows you to use their services and in return you pay them in information.
What MMO developers do more and more is create games that compel players to spend more of their time in game. There are a wealth of mechanics that push players into an "all or nothing" type of game play. Daily quests are a good example of this, where players are told that by logging in every day for X amount of time to complete X amount of dailes, they will get benefits for doing so. "Spend your time in our games and we will reward you for it." This isn't developers creating enjoyable mechanics to get you to spend your time playing. These are developers creating mechancis that - psychologically - manipulate you into spending you time in game. The more time you are spending in World of Warcraft, the less time you are spending in other games, and the less likely you are to leave World of Warcraft for another game.
You are spending your time on those games, in precisely the same way people who have money chose to spend their money on those games.
How, I ask, is it even vaguely fair or balances to say that one branch of progression - time based - is OK but another - money based - is not?
"More people have time, less people have money." So what? I work a lot less than most people, but this means I have the time to make progress in these games. There are those who do not have this luxury. There are people who work 40,50+ hours a week and do not have the time to commit to endlessly playing games. There are also those, like myself, who try to limit the amont of time they play. Why should those who don't have the time or don't want to spend the time be limited because there are those who quite greedily obsess over what is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS PROGRESSION IN A GAME?
And I think that's what it comes down to, personally. For the most part gamers are playing games and getting nothing out of it besides some enjoyment. You can't, unless you are in a world first guild or are a professional gamers, put your MMO accomplishments on a CV. You can't boast about it beyond the Internet. The achievement is meaningless and is no substitute for actual progression in the real world, where your accomplishments ARE important and ARE meaningful.
So really what does it matter if Joe Bloggs purchased an item or got a leveling boost for some money?
You all have grossely misplaced your egos, I'm afraid
That's all. You're all being totally irrational about the affair.
RMT is fine. Perfectly fine. In its current form it is far from exploitative. Those of you that want to spend the time doing these things can spend the time doing them. Those of you who want to buy your way to the top can do that as well. It means absolutely nothing.
Still makes me wonder if people even know what Guild WArs 2 is.
They've said, that equipment won't matter as much, it's not an equipment based game. The only use for money is to buy euqipment.
So equipment doesnt equal power that means money doesnt equal power.
So many have been brainwashed by the design of MMOs for years, you can't even see straight. The company has said day 1 that equipment will only provide small bonuses. If johnny die hard wants a 4 percent raise in damage and he's going to pay 20 bucks for it, he's still no more powerful than you, cause you can take out the same monster.
Stop confusing the business with the business model. RMT companies are what has always been fought against, not RMT. RMT companies use illegal methods to do their business. That's the big problem.
I keep hering "How do you think they will make money" because evidently the Ca$h $hop is the only way to keep the servers up for poor 'ol Anet.
For starters, the Hundreds of thoudands (millions?) of digital copies @ $60.00 should help. Since they do not have to pay printing cost, labor, shipping, Physical medium (DVD) or the wages of a chain of people from the distribution, to warehousing and then retail clerks... Why are prices not dropping as more and more digital sales are replacing Box sales?
Next, how do games like NVN "make money"? The Diamond Edition of NWN1 is like $13.00 NEW , has persistant online servers (and has had them since the begining ) with no cash shop- Worked so well they made a NVN 2 (also with online persistant World)- All with no monthly fee.
I also play multi-player games on the PSN for FREE. As often as I would like
I also have played a plethora of multiplayer online games which also were free from Civ 4 to Half-life...
You people bringing up Vice laws (like legal drugs) are so not understanding the complete difrences here (I am a member of NORML btw)- We protest against the prohibition of something far safer than the Legal alternatives (safer than asprin) and that a man or woman can have their door KICKED IN by thugs with GUNS who will drag them off to a cell... Beyond that, I dont know many (other than Hardcore Libertarians) who want "all drugs legal"... This is "Legalized cheating" and if folks were being imprisoned for buying Gold, I would try to reform these stupid laws.
People are not being jailed (or anything else) for Gold buying...In fact, the proof is, LEGAL GOLD is far more expensive that ILLEGAL GOLD (because greedy companie want their cut)
MY PROOF (sorry cannot link to Goldsellers)- EQ2 has a server will players can buy and selll gold/items for REAL MONEY. This is an official SOE EQ2 server (google it). Look at the prices for Gold (note SOE "taxes" the sale)- Now google "Buy Gold on X server) and BAM.... Almost 50% less... BUT (here is the catch) you can be BANNED if you buy Gold from an "outside" (read: NON TAXED) source.
So, by your philosophy, what happens when Gold Sellers undercut the in game (allowable) prices for items/gems/etc? Will Anet aggresivly pursue these outside forces? OR will they allow you to "shop around" for the best deal? ???? I know the answer.
-And finally, there is something called "Creeping incrimentalism" . All this support over RMT these last few years has allowed games to move towards a sub (or box sale) PLUS RMT... Real Money should never be mixed in with gaming... Period.
And as another brought up- Botting needs to be legal as well under the current line of reasoning.
-They wil keep pushing the envolope because YOU will keep defending them and using their Cash Shops.
It's not that I don't like RMT, it's that I don't understand it. Whats the point of having a game and then not playing it? Isn't the point of playing these games to try and create your own character, your own unique power set, your own wealth? Why would I buy someone elses level 50? I thought the fun part of the game was getting there yourself. I have fun in the lower levels, I have fun crafting my own stuff, I enjoy the challenge of trying to decide what to spend what little gold I may have on the things I really need. The only problem I have ever really had in an MMO is building a nerfed character. As for the RMT stuff, If you don't like playing the game maybe you should be spending your real money on something you really enjoy.
I know this is a little out of place "The only problem I have ever really had in an MMO is building a nerfed character ". But, damn, I hate when this happens.
First of all, stop being so naive. ArenaNet themselves have told us that gear WILL matter, it just won't be the end-all be-all that it is in other games. In addition, gear properties such as stat distribution, set bonuses and weapon modifiers have been claimed by ArenaNet to be an essential part of your builds.
Secondly, your final sentence is simply not true. RMT itself was viewed as inherently unfair to the playerbase and that's why there was a blanket ban on it. Why else do you think player-to-player RMT (i.e. without third party sites being involved)was also banned?
If it was true that they only reason RMT was banned because of gold-selling companies then player-to-player RMT would have been allowed.
Fail logic is fail.
If RMT doesn't exist in a game then neither do gold sellers. What you just said is equivalent to:
"So as long as cheating doesn't exist then you are ok playing the game, regardless of what effect cheaters have on the game"
RMT completely obliterates the immersiveness and integrety of the world people want to build or play in.
I would just like to add this:
If you are a follower of GW2 and believe legitimizing RMT is wrong, please express your opinion over at http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/mike-o-brien-microtransactions-in-t32104.html. The only way we can let the developers know that we are not okay with RMT is by voicing our opinions!
Let's get real, the publishers start selling gold themself because they want money. It have nothing to do with illegal RMT. They just try to find every excuse possible to justify them doing it.