Well I don't have any feeling toward raids in general, but I do dislike the type of players that are obsessed with them and prefer anything that encourages them to go elsewhere to find gaming valhalla.
I wouldn't mind raids in the game for purely cosmetic rewards, but I don't think I'd take part in them. So if raiders really want that I'm not against it, but I really don't care for raiding at all. Would probably be a waste of resources for such a small group of people that would be interested in them.
Super mario... and a MMORPG clearly have a lot in common.
no no, I totally understand what you're saying. Unless a game offers some kind of power boost as you play the game, it is totally pointless. Why would anyone play a game other than to level up or get items that make you stronger?
Yeah games like Super smash brothers somehow got away with not adding those important things, but god forbid we let something like that happen to the MMO genre.
That is not what i am saying, you think you understand but you dont, allow me to clairify.
Guild wars in its current state is reading like a console adventure game meant to hold your attention for a week or two, not a traditional MMO designed to hold your attention for months. The highest replay value comes from PVP, if you are heavily into pvp on a MOBA level then guild wars sounds fantastic. Flat stats, flat damage, flat gear. Which is fine. Every warrior is equal, every elementalist is equal, every ranger is equal, etc. SO its all about player skill. Sort of like counter strike...
But from a PVE standpoint, it has very little replay value. Sure there are people who wont min doing a dynamic event 20 or 30 times because the story is fantastic, the event triggers are cool, or whatever whatever. But most i believe will do the event once or twice, at most 4 or 5 times. So if you do say every event once or twice, every dungeon once or twice, and do all the quests, what is left?
Farming out your costume.
Thats cool for some people but do you believe a large portion of the MMO playerbase is into creating a wardrobe? No what is going to happen is, people will pvp, google guides, find screen shots of all the costume sets offered throughout the world and hone in on that one dungeon that drops the armorset they like. And after they get that one armorset they will stop doing that dungeon. Dungeons are fun, the first few times, after that you are ding them to achieve something, get that piece of armor, or find that new weapon for finish that quest. If the loot doesnt matter, people willhave less reason over all to keep going.
I really wish we could do a test, lets determine if dungeons are about fun or loot. And here is how i would propose a dev team would do said test. They would chose a week long beta test, set up 3 dungeons, send random groups of 5 players into these dungeons.
In the first dungeon, there is a chest, it has the entire loot table of the dungeon. Players can pick and choose what they like, and then they are given a choice, will they do the dungeon, or will they go do something else now that they have gotten everything the dungeon has to offer before even killing the first mob.
In the second, there is no loot, nothing, not even gold. Just the dungeon and mobs, and players can experience the content.
And the final dungeon, is pretty old school, it has a loot table, all the bosses have varying drops, and if you collect them all together you get a set bonus of some sort. The drop rates are decent, and if all goes in your favor it would technically take you the entire week, running the dungeon at a minimum of 3 times per day to get the entire set.
I think it would be rather interesting to see which of those instances get played the most, which one of those instances would have the highest replay value.
Guild wars in its current state caters to the pvpers, which is great, if you are into pvp it will have high replay value. But if you are a pve player, i am going to say it right here, right now, it will only hold pve players for a month. Like TOR.
Items do not need to make you super strong, but they do need to give you that feeling that you are making progress. Even if it was values like, there are 5 teirs and each teir only gives you something as low as 2% more stats each teir. There needs to be an incentive. And costumes arent it.
Dont get me wrong, i am not bashing guild wars, i am just telling you what it is. I will play guild wars, i will max out my mesmer, engineer and warrior and i will pvp until i get bored. Sort of like how i play league of legends, i have over 2500 games played, i currenty play about 1 or 2 games a day before i stop for the day. Guild wars will play the same.
Hell illl probably play guild wars when whatever my main MMO is on maintenence after a while.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I dont even support the current paradigm of dungeons giving cosmetic gear. you have to be outside your mind to think id do a raid just for cosmetic gear.
Not sure where these weak breed of gamer came from that doesnt want to earn any items and honestly believes everyone should be equal at all times. But this cosmetic only gear shit in dungeons will not catch on, and honestly im not sure how long it will last in guild wars 2.
Sounds good on paper, but i honestly dont see a large majority of players farming dungeons for costumes... especially when there is an item mall in game which is no doubt sell costumes...
We like to win based on skill not gear scores. I think you might be the weak breed if you need uber gear to win. In UO when it started out gear was pretty much cosmetic. It all had to do with skill (and good internet connection).
So true it's not even funny.
So true in whos opinion? Id love to see this poll, the gear vs skill vs hybrid(skill/gear) chart and lets see which bracket is largest.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Nothing ArenaNet do is about separating community.
You're fooling yourself. As soon as you give rewards(titles, gear, cosmetics, pets etc), you give a tool that your community will use to seperate themselves. It happened in GW1. Nature of the beast.
Well then ArenaNet is fooling us all , because its their stated design philosofi for GW2. To avoid choices that separate the playerbase. As exsample Thats the reason there is only one kind of competitive PvP. It has also been their argument for why there is no raiding in the game. I belive thats what they want .Go Figure who is fooling who here.
Dungeons are fun, the first few times, after that you are ding them to achieve something, get that piece of armor, or find that new weapon for finish that quest. If the loot doesnt matter, people willhave less reason over all to keep going.
Ok... so I think I get what you're saying now. Dungeons are fun, the first few times. So games should add rewards to make you keep doing something when it is no longer fun? Gotcha.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
I like raiding with friends. We had a saying in my guild: "We get gear so we can raid, we do not raid to get gear." Of course we all liked epics, but we liked coordinating our efforts to clear a raid to show we could. I wouldn't mind if they introduced this in GW2. I don't think they will, but I'd do it if only for cosmetic or slighty better optimized gear (not BETTER gear, but gear with a more desireable stat distrubution), or a title, or whatever.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
We have dungeons for our instances, Why do we need more instances...We have what amounts to open world raids already.
This!
Raids are nothing more then a glorified epeen contest and do nothing to foster community. In fact the elitist attitudes that raiding brings to an MMO do everything to segment communities and are a devisive wedge that kills comraderie. Open world raiding such as the Elder Dragons in GW2 are the best source for fostering a massively cooperative environment.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
It depends on what the comparison is. If it's using precious development resources to create raids instead of interesting content, then no. If it's ArenaNet hiring additional developers to create the raids, and thinking they'll be paid for by additional sales due to raiders, then it's not the same sort of problem.
The other problem is, if the game added raids with cosmetic rewards, raiders would almost immediately start demanding loudly that the raids need to give game-breakingly unbalanced rewards, just like in every other raiding game. If ArenaNet caved to that, then we'd have a big problem on our hands. Guild Wars 2 has enough potential that I don't want to see it turned into just another awful raiding game.
So if it's not instead of other content, and we had some ironclad guarantee that the rewards would be purely cosmetic forever, then I wouldn't be against it. But getting that ironclad guarantee that the rewards will stay cosmetic is the problem. Guild Wars was designed from the start to not be about progression, but in Eye of the North, ArenaNet caved to people who wanted progression and wrecked much of the game's PVE content in the process. So I have zero confidence that they'd hold out against raiders' whining forever.
I dont even support the current paradigm of dungeons giving cosmetic gear. you have to be outside your mind to think id do a raid just for cosmetic gear.
Not sure where these weak breed of gamer came from that doesnt want to earn any items and honestly believes everyone should be equal at all times. But this cosmetic only gear shit in dungeons will not catch on, and honestly im not sure how long it will last in guild wars 2.
Sounds good on paper, but i honestly dont see a large majority of players farming dungeons for costumes... especially when there is an item mall in game which is no doubt sell costumes...
We like to win based on skill not gear scores. I think you might be the weak breed if you need uber gear to win. In UO when it started out gear was pretty much cosmetic. It all had to do with skill (and good internet connection).
So true it's not even funny.
So true in whos opinion? Id love to see this poll, the gear vs skill vs hybrid(skill/gear) chart and lets see which bracket is largest.
This is one of the main reasons why I choose other genres for PvP. In MMORPGs I mostly find those players that rather rely on gear or FOTM builds and group compositions rather than teamwork, strategy, and personal ability.
The draw I find, is this is one of the few genres (if not the only) where you can succeed in PvP without having twitch skills. Of course when you nullify that you'll find people complaining.
I dont even support the current paradigm of dungeons giving cosmetic gear. you have to be outside your mind to think id do a raid just for cosmetic gear.
Not sure where these weak breed of gamer came from that doesnt want to earn any items and honestly believes everyone should be equal at all times. But this cosmetic only gear shit in dungeons will not catch on, and honestly im not sure how long it will last in guild wars 2.
Sounds good on paper, but i honestly dont see a large majority of players farming dungeons for costumes... especially when there is an item mall in game which is no doubt sell costumes...
Really?
Then why do people put so much effort into looking different? Why do people complain about armour models. Appearance is very important to gamers.
People want to look different, sure. How many people do you think want to run a 5 hour instance purely for a cosmetic item?
Poll your friends if they are gamers, dont tell them anything else, ask them if they would do a raid, knowing the only items youd get are fluff. It wont make you stronger, wont make you faster, wont make you better in any way shape or form, it is just for looks, like an emote, or a cute pet or dyes, Ask them if they would raid for dyes. Only dyes, nothing else.
Ohhh me me, I know this answer.
When statistics say that less then 10% of a playerbase participates in end-game raiding in a gear progression based MMO you quickly come to the realization that raiding in any form is a niche endeavor. Anet knows this and that is why end-game instanced based raiding is not included in GW2.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
It depends on what the comparison is. If it's using precious development resources to create raids instead of interesting content, then no. If it's ArenaNet hiring additional developers to create the raids, and thinking they'll be paid for by additional sales due to raiders, then it's not the same sort of problem.
The other problem is, if the game added raids with cosmetic rewards, raiders would almost immediately start demanding loudly that the raids need to give game-breakingly unbalanced rewards, just like in every other raiding game. If ArenaNet caved to that, then we'd have a big problem on our hands. Guild Wars 2 has enough potential that I don't want to see it turned into just another awful raiding game.
So if it's not instead of other content, and we had some ironclad guarantee that the rewards would be purely cosmetic forever, then I wouldn't be against it. But getting that ironclad guarantee that the rewards will stay cosmetic is the problem. Guild Wars was designed from the start to not be about progression, but in Eye of the North, ArenaNet caved to people who wanted progression and wrecked much of the game's PVE content in the process. So I have zero confidence that they'd hold out against raiders' whining forever.
I think you make some good points. I imagine if you put in raids you'd invariably create a caste system that may quickly spin out of control, ending with the introduction of raid finder and all that crap, creating watered-down content anyway.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Not sure where these weak breed of gamer came from that doesnt want to earn any items and honestly believes everyone should be equal at all times. But this cosmetic only gear shit in dungeons will not catch on, and honestly im not sure how long it will last in guild wars 2.
What I don't get is where the people come from who don't like doing any content in a game, but will do it for the sake of rewards that don't exist outside the game.
You could argue that weapons and armors are all cosmetic in GW1, too. Some weapons are better than others, but getting one that is max is pretty cheap. Getting one that is max with a weapon skin that those who farm it have decreed to be rare can be very, very expensive, though.
That it's all cosmetic is one of the big selling points of GW1. You don't have to spend all of your time grinding something stupid. You can skip the grinding and just play the game. And maybe even have fun. Or if you don't like the game, then at least you didn't have to spend a month on grinding stupid things to figure that out.
People want to look different, sure. How many people do you think want to run a 5 hour instance purely for a cosmetic item?
Poll your friends if they are gamers, dont tell them anything else, ask them if they would do a raid, knowing the only items youd get are fluff. It wont make you stronger, wont make you faster, wont make you better in any way shape or form, it is just for looks, like an emote, or a cute pet or dyes, Ask them if they would raid for dyes. Only dyes, nothing else.
People who enjoy raiding for its own sake would still do the raids even if the rewards are only cosmetic.
The unstated assumption behind your post, which few care to contradict, is that no one actually likes raiding. That's not an argument for making raid rewards cosmetic or not. That's an argument that raiding shouldn't be part of any game, ever. Which might not be the argument that you intended to make.
Dungeons are fun, the first few times, after that you are ding them to achieve something, get that piece of armor, or find that new weapon for finish that quest. If the loot doesnt matter, people willhave less reason over all to keep going.
Ok... so I think I get what you're saying now. Dungeons are fun, the first few times. So games should add rewards to make you keep doing something when it is no longer fun? Gotcha.
Im saying it would get boring if it had no purpose beyond fun.
For instance, i just beat uncharted 3, it was fun. I then played it again on Hard mode. Now i am done with it, im not going to keep playing it over and over again just because it is fun.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
People want to look different, sure. How many people do you think want to run a 5 hour instance purely for a cosmetic item?
Poll your friends if they are gamers, dont tell them anything else, ask them if they would do a raid, knowing the only items youd get are fluff. It wont make you stronger, wont make you faster, wont make you better in any way shape or form, it is just for looks, like an emote, or a cute pet or dyes, Ask them if they would raid for dyes. Only dyes, nothing else.
People who enjoy raiding for its own sake would still do the raids even if the rewards are only cosmetic.
The unstated assumption behind your post, which few care to contradict, is that no one actually likes raiding. That's not an argument for making raid rewards cosmetic or not. That's an argument that raiding shouldn't be part of any game, ever. Which might not be the argument that you intended to make.
I am not making any arguement to add raids into guild wars. My arugement is, i woulnt raid in guild wars if gear progression wasnt there as an incentive. Raiding for cosmetic items woudlnt even be remotely appealing.
Like i have said, ill be playing guild wars for what it is, a good pvp game. but its pve is pretty weak interms of replayability.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I am not making any arguement to add raids into guild wars. My arugement is, i woulnt raid in guild wars if gear progression wasnt there as an incentive. Raiding for cosmetic items woudlnt even be remotely appealing.
That's exactly the point. If raiding isn't fun and only done for gear progression then it has no place in a game meant for enjoyment rather than work.
I dont even support the current paradigm of dungeons giving cosmetic gear. you have to be outside your mind to think id do a raid just for cosmetic gear.
Not sure where these weak breed of gamer came from that doesnt want to earn any items and honestly believes everyone should be equal at all times. But this cosmetic only gear shit in dungeons will not catch on, and honestly im not sure how long it will last in guild wars 2.
Sounds good on paper, but i honestly dont see a large majority of players farming dungeons for costumes... especially when there is an item mall in game which is no doubt sell costumes...
We like to win based on skill not gear scores. I think you might be the weak breed if you need uber gear to win. In UO when it started out gear was pretty much cosmetic. It all had to do with skill (and good internet connection).
So true it's not even funny.
So true in whos opinion? Id love to see this poll, the gear vs skill vs hybrid(skill/gear) chart and lets see which bracket is largest.
This is one of the main reasons why I choose other genres for PvP. In MMORPGs I mostly find those players that rather rely on gear or FOTM builds and group compositions rather than teamwork, strategy, and personal ability.
The draw I find, is this is one of the few genres (if not the only) where you can succeed in PvP without having twitch skills. Of course when you nullify that you'll find people complaining.
I play fps games that are hybrids, like battlefield and other games.
That's where skill and gear actually work the best.
MMOs I've never played because gear out balanced skill well most MMOs.
Tera is some what of a Hybrid, my only issue for [me] is the aniation pauses, that are least a huge impact for me but it's a huge step up and I do like their take, because you got dodging and what not.
Guild Wars 2 has that except you won't always be able rely on your gear, you'll be having to focus on your skills if you face someone else of your level. That's in WvWvW.
In the Esport part, I like that because you can get upgrades and certaint things, like added on precision, cosmectics, and what not.
But if I where to call someone weak because they wish to be equal in terms of stats, the only one who is being the punk ass would be myself, because obviousely I don't really think I'm skilled.
If people died in a few hits like fps games then it'd be a different story. I don't think a lot of fps games make your health stronger, least I know Battlefield doesn't I do dislike the p2w thing they got going on though.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
But from a PVE standpoint, it has very little replay value. Sure there are people who wont min doing a dynamic event 20 or 30 times because the story is fantastic, the event triggers are cool, or whatever whatever. But most i believe will do the event once or twice, at most 4 or 5 times. So if you do say every event once or twice, every dungeon once or twice, and do all the quests, what is left?
Farming out your costume.
Why then are there people who played GW1 for years while doing little to no PVP?
Could it be that there are people who like doing PVE content but don't like grinding? That was a major part of the target audience for GW1, and will be so again for GW2. With the heavy focus on grinding in a large fraction of MMORPGs, I'd argue that it's a large but underserved niche.
The primary advantage of the "buy to play" business model has nothing to do with what you pay. Rather, it's that the game designers don't feel intense pressure to take desperate measures to keep you playing longer. If they have a month worth of content for you to play, then you can play through it in a month and quit. They don't have to make you spend a year grinding to get access to the last of the content, in order to make you pay a subscription fee more times.
Is it really such a bad thing for a game to let you get all of the fun that you would have had over the course of a year if there were a lot more grinding, but compressed into a single month? Does that make the game of less value to buy? I'd say it makes the game worth more.
And without having to spend most of your time grinding, you might just find that it's interesting to create an alt and play through everything again with a different class. And then another. And another. And then... oh wait, I think I just answered my question from the start of the post.
I don't personally "support" raids at ALL. Open world large scale fights with bosses and dragons and whatnot, sure, 100 people even, whatever, that's fine. Raids in the World of Warcraft definition......no. For that matter, raids in ANY MMO's definition.....no. I like the idea behind what GW2 is doing with small group VERY challenging dungeons. The different modes satisfy my idea of a good substitute for raiding and all the petty squabbles that raiding consisted of. Bad grammar I know....sue me.
I just don't think every single game has to have the same mechanics as previous games. What do we need raiding in EVERY game for? Nothing, really. So it's okay to have ONE game that doesn't have raiding, isn't it? I think when people realize how rock hard those dungeons are on explorable mode, they will realize that they are DOING raiding, just with five people, and they're being more challenged than they were in previous games. We'll see......
Comments
Well I don't have any feeling toward raids in general, but I do dislike the type of players that are obsessed with them and prefer anything that encourages them to go elsewhere to find gaming valhalla.
PvP usually doesn't count as raids, even large-scale PvP.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
PvP usually doesn't count as raids, even large-scale PvP.
Then I hate to be communing with the hivemind but maybe GW2 isn't for that person.I wouldn't mind raids in the game for purely cosmetic rewards, but I don't think I'd take part in them. So if raiders really want that I'm not against it, but I really don't care for raiding at all. Would probably be a waste of resources for such a small group of people that would be interested in them.
I won't miss the absence of raids.
I wouldn't support raids, period.
I hope A.Net never tries to institute raiding in GW; it's a terrible style of gameplay. Let it stay with the WoW clones.
I'd rather developer time be spent on things which are actually fun.
That is not what i am saying, you think you understand but you dont, allow me to clairify.
Guild wars in its current state is reading like a console adventure game meant to hold your attention for a week or two, not a traditional MMO designed to hold your attention for months. The highest replay value comes from PVP, if you are heavily into pvp on a MOBA level then guild wars sounds fantastic. Flat stats, flat damage, flat gear. Which is fine. Every warrior is equal, every elementalist is equal, every ranger is equal, etc. SO its all about player skill. Sort of like counter strike...
But from a PVE standpoint, it has very little replay value. Sure there are people who wont min doing a dynamic event 20 or 30 times because the story is fantastic, the event triggers are cool, or whatever whatever. But most i believe will do the event once or twice, at most 4 or 5 times. So if you do say every event once or twice, every dungeon once or twice, and do all the quests, what is left?
Farming out your costume.
Thats cool for some people but do you believe a large portion of the MMO playerbase is into creating a wardrobe? No what is going to happen is, people will pvp, google guides, find screen shots of all the costume sets offered throughout the world and hone in on that one dungeon that drops the armorset they like. And after they get that one armorset they will stop doing that dungeon. Dungeons are fun, the first few times, after that you are ding them to achieve something, get that piece of armor, or find that new weapon for finish that quest. If the loot doesnt matter, people willhave less reason over all to keep going.
I really wish we could do a test, lets determine if dungeons are about fun or loot. And here is how i would propose a dev team would do said test. They would chose a week long beta test, set up 3 dungeons, send random groups of 5 players into these dungeons.
In the first dungeon, there is a chest, it has the entire loot table of the dungeon. Players can pick and choose what they like, and then they are given a choice, will they do the dungeon, or will they go do something else now that they have gotten everything the dungeon has to offer before even killing the first mob.
In the second, there is no loot, nothing, not even gold. Just the dungeon and mobs, and players can experience the content.
And the final dungeon, is pretty old school, it has a loot table, all the bosses have varying drops, and if you collect them all together you get a set bonus of some sort. The drop rates are decent, and if all goes in your favor it would technically take you the entire week, running the dungeon at a minimum of 3 times per day to get the entire set.
I think it would be rather interesting to see which of those instances get played the most, which one of those instances would have the highest replay value.
Guild wars in its current state caters to the pvpers, which is great, if you are into pvp it will have high replay value. But if you are a pve player, i am going to say it right here, right now, it will only hold pve players for a month. Like TOR.
Items do not need to make you super strong, but they do need to give you that feeling that you are making progress. Even if it was values like, there are 5 teirs and each teir only gives you something as low as 2% more stats each teir. There needs to be an incentive. And costumes arent it.
Dont get me wrong, i am not bashing guild wars, i am just telling you what it is. I will play guild wars, i will max out my mesmer, engineer and warrior and i will pvp until i get bored. Sort of like how i play league of legends, i have over 2500 games played, i currenty play about 1 or 2 games a day before i stop for the day. Guild wars will play the same.
Hell illl probably play guild wars when whatever my main MMO is on maintenence after a while.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
So true in whos opinion? Id love to see this poll, the gear vs skill vs hybrid(skill/gear) chart and lets see which bracket is largest.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Well then ArenaNet is fooling us all , because its their stated design philosofi for GW2. To avoid choices that separate the playerbase. As exsample Thats the reason there is only one kind of competitive PvP. It has also been their argument for why there is no raiding in the game. I belive thats what they want .Go Figure who is fooling who here.
Ok... so I think I get what you're saying now. Dungeons are fun, the first few times. So games should add rewards to make you keep doing something when it is no longer fun? Gotcha.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
I guess it wouldn´t hurt to have them , more stuff to the game but it isn´t that necessary, but if people want raids maybe arenanet can make them :P
I like raiding with friends. We had a saying in my guild: "We get gear so we can raid, we do not raid to get gear." Of course we all liked epics, but we liked coordinating our efforts to clear a raid to show we could. I wouldn't mind if they introduced this in GW2. I don't think they will, but I'd do it if only for cosmetic or slighty better optimized gear (not BETTER gear, but gear with a more desireable stat distrubution), or a title, or whatever.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
This!
Raids are nothing more then a glorified epeen contest and do nothing to foster community. In fact the elitist attitudes that raiding brings to an MMO do everything to segment communities and are a devisive wedge that kills comraderie. Open world raiding such as the Elder Dragons in GW2 are the best source for fostering a massively cooperative environment.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
It depends on what the comparison is. If it's using precious development resources to create raids instead of interesting content, then no. If it's ArenaNet hiring additional developers to create the raids, and thinking they'll be paid for by additional sales due to raiders, then it's not the same sort of problem.
The other problem is, if the game added raids with cosmetic rewards, raiders would almost immediately start demanding loudly that the raids need to give game-breakingly unbalanced rewards, just like in every other raiding game. If ArenaNet caved to that, then we'd have a big problem on our hands. Guild Wars 2 has enough potential that I don't want to see it turned into just another awful raiding game.
So if it's not instead of other content, and we had some ironclad guarantee that the rewards would be purely cosmetic forever, then I wouldn't be against it. But getting that ironclad guarantee that the rewards will stay cosmetic is the problem. Guild Wars was designed from the start to not be about progression, but in Eye of the North, ArenaNet caved to people who wanted progression and wrecked much of the game's PVE content in the process. So I have zero confidence that they'd hold out against raiders' whining forever.
This is one of the main reasons why I choose other genres for PvP. In MMORPGs I mostly find those players that rather rely on gear or FOTM builds and group compositions rather than teamwork, strategy, and personal ability.
The draw I find, is this is one of the few genres (if not the only) where you can succeed in PvP without having twitch skills. Of course when you nullify that you'll find people complaining.
Ohhh me me, I know this answer.
When statistics say that less then 10% of a playerbase participates in end-game raiding in a gear progression based MMO you quickly come to the realization that raiding in any form is a niche endeavor. Anet knows this and that is why end-game instanced based raiding is not included in GW2.
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I think you make some good points. I imagine if you put in raids you'd invariably create a caste system that may quickly spin out of control, ending with the introduction of raid finder and all that crap, creating watered-down content anyway.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
What I don't get is where the people come from who don't like doing any content in a game, but will do it for the sake of rewards that don't exist outside the game.
You could argue that weapons and armors are all cosmetic in GW1, too. Some weapons are better than others, but getting one that is max is pretty cheap. Getting one that is max with a weapon skin that those who farm it have decreed to be rare can be very, very expensive, though.
That it's all cosmetic is one of the big selling points of GW1. You don't have to spend all of your time grinding something stupid. You can skip the grinding and just play the game. And maybe even have fun. Or if you don't like the game, then at least you didn't have to spend a month on grinding stupid things to figure that out.
People who enjoy raiding for its own sake would still do the raids even if the rewards are only cosmetic.
The unstated assumption behind your post, which few care to contradict, is that no one actually likes raiding. That's not an argument for making raid rewards cosmetic or not. That's an argument that raiding shouldn't be part of any game, ever. Which might not be the argument that you intended to make.
Im saying it would get boring if it had no purpose beyond fun.
For instance, i just beat uncharted 3, it was fun. I then played it again on Hard mode. Now i am done with it, im not going to keep playing it over and over again just because it is fun.
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I am not making any arguement to add raids into guild wars. My arugement is, i woulnt raid in guild wars if gear progression wasnt there as an incentive. Raiding for cosmetic items woudlnt even be remotely appealing.
Like i have said, ill be playing guild wars for what it is, a good pvp game. but its pve is pretty weak interms of replayability.
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That's exactly the point. If raiding isn't fun and only done for gear progression then it has no place in a game meant for enjoyment rather than work.
I play fps games that are hybrids, like battlefield and other games.
That's where skill and gear actually work the best.
MMOs I've never played because gear out balanced skill well most MMOs.
Tera is some what of a Hybrid, my only issue for [me] is the aniation pauses, that are least a huge impact for me but it's a huge step up and I do like their take, because you got dodging and what not.
Guild Wars 2 has that except you won't always be able rely on your gear, you'll be having to focus on your skills if you face someone else of your level. That's in WvWvW.
In the Esport part, I like that because you can get upgrades and certaint things, like added on precision, cosmectics, and what not.
But if I where to call someone weak because they wish to be equal in terms of stats, the only one who is being the punk ass would be myself, because obviousely I don't really think I'm skilled.
If people died in a few hits like fps games then it'd be a different story. I don't think a lot of fps games make your health stronger, least I know Battlefield doesn't I do dislike the p2w thing they got going on though.
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Why then are there people who played GW1 for years while doing little to no PVP?
Could it be that there are people who like doing PVE content but don't like grinding? That was a major part of the target audience for GW1, and will be so again for GW2. With the heavy focus on grinding in a large fraction of MMORPGs, I'd argue that it's a large but underserved niche.
The primary advantage of the "buy to play" business model has nothing to do with what you pay. Rather, it's that the game designers don't feel intense pressure to take desperate measures to keep you playing longer. If they have a month worth of content for you to play, then you can play through it in a month and quit. They don't have to make you spend a year grinding to get access to the last of the content, in order to make you pay a subscription fee more times.
Is it really such a bad thing for a game to let you get all of the fun that you would have had over the course of a year if there were a lot more grinding, but compressed into a single month? Does that make the game of less value to buy? I'd say it makes the game worth more.
And without having to spend most of your time grinding, you might just find that it's interesting to create an alt and play through everything again with a different class. And then another. And another. And then... oh wait, I think I just answered my question from the start of the post.
I don't personally "support" raids at ALL. Open world large scale fights with bosses and dragons and whatnot, sure, 100 people even, whatever, that's fine. Raids in the World of Warcraft definition......no. For that matter, raids in ANY MMO's definition.....no. I like the idea behind what GW2 is doing with small group VERY challenging dungeons. The different modes satisfy my idea of a good substitute for raiding and all the petty squabbles that raiding consisted of. Bad grammar I know....sue me.
I just don't think every single game has to have the same mechanics as previous games. What do we need raiding in EVERY game for? Nothing, really. So it's okay to have ONE game that doesn't have raiding, isn't it? I think when people realize how rock hard those dungeons are on explorable mode, they will realize that they are DOING raiding, just with five people, and they're being more challenged than they were in previous games. We'll see......
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I voted noq (no hahaha), mostly because I think it would be an annoying clusterfuck due to the GW2 game mechanics.
If they could make raiding both fun and challenging, then sure, why not. But with the way combat works in GW2 I don't see that happening.