Yeah of course you are leaving out the real meat of the D3 skill tree which is the skill runes.
They allow for a huge amount of customization of your build that isn't a linear path down a skill tree.
The poe one looks like a hot mess to me. Very minor customizations for the most part compared to radically altering how all of your skills work in D3 in a large variety of ways.
There are literally millions of possible builds in D3.
But hey, what do I know, you played beta to level 13 for two hours right? You must know everything about the game.
Again, the rune system is childishly simple and doesn't really allow for any customization. I was looking at them for awhile myself and thinking they were half decent until I went back and played Diablo 2. Then it struck me that Diablo 3 is a horribly dumbed down system meant for people who can't think for themselves.
Not to mention the day I got into POE beta, and actually had a chance to look & fiddle with the passive tree allowed me to fully understand how WRONG I was in thinking Diablo 3's system was meant for anything but 13yr olds my friend.
Also, there is closed beta that has tested the full game, and they've come back saying all of the above about how bad the system is. The funny part? They were saying it in POE's beta.
I stopped reading there. That is completely false. Have a nice day.
Good day then, because it's true. Go look @ the "runes" you're clinging to. Most of them are pathetically small effects that almost have no effect on your skills even with 5 different runes on them. You're almost no different than any other class of the same time unless you add a rune that COMPLETELY changes what a skill does, and then those are very few and far between.
WoW you really are the #1 PoE fan, you really cannot comprehend a system that is different from the norm can you?
But each to their own, the PoE skill system has been done to death, it looks complex but when you look at it you realise that 5 of those nodes are all +5% mana regen and could simply be comabined into a rank system reducing the size of that spider web by 80%.
#1 PoE fan? Why? Because I actually allowed myself to open my mouth in order to shoot down outright lies regarding PoE? How does this make me an "outright PoE fan"?!
No one has lied about PoE that I can see
No, I'm not, but I do consider POE a decent product...or at least I will when they release more than Act 1 or 2. The game heavily lacks in content, but then again it's still EARLY Beta.
I've not played PoE so I cannot comment on the game, the tree system is nothing special though.
Also, no actually they aren't "actually" +5% mana regen, and combining them into a "rank system" would dumb it down and completely restrict the freedom that you get from that spiderweb. Just because World of Warcraft's dumbed down system is popular doesn't make it correct, or better for that matter my friend.
How does using a rank system dumb it down? you have to take those 5 nodes to progress through the line, so if they are seperate nodes or 1 node with 5 ranks what is the difference?
Real Example;
b. are each +6 physical dmg with wands, if I want to get a. (via this route) I have to take all four regardless, so why not have 1 node with 4 ranks and for each rank increase dmg by 6? every other talent tree system has a rank system.
rank 1: +6
rank 2: +12
rank 3: +18
rank 4: +24
Your given the illusion of all these skills and choices but if you took a skill tree from any other game and expanded it to single nodes you'd be looking a huge ass spider web again.
They did that for point-spreading. Meaning that adding ALL of that into one node for ONE point would simply be too unbalanced. That actually was one giant node down there for +30% to wand damage right below the +50%, however they found out that almost every witch was popping that node regardless if they were speccing in wands or not.
Crying foul because of balance issues is simply silly expresso. What they did didn't demean the value of the passive tree whatsoever.
The amount of customization that the Passive "Web" allows is actually fairly impressive. It's actually kind of sad on my end that most people cannot appreciate it. However, the Passive tree is not 100% of POE's system. It's actually a small percentage (40%?) of the skill system overall meant to work in tandom. Concentrating on this passive tree alone does nothing but blind you from the rest.
However, I have done quite a bit of research into Diablo 3's skill & rune system. 6 active skills at any time usable, and 5 runes per active skill? I've seen most of those runes, and none of them have impressed me. Speaking from a mathmatical standpoint almost all of them are so small in effect it's not even funny.
When you add +33% of an effect to a SMALL static number it does nothing impressive but fool the user into thinking it's worth something because it's a big number. That is pretty much Diablo 3 in a nutshell for me bud.
You're forgetting that there are also slotted gems that can be "connected" through links in equipment to augment each other. Such as linking "chance to ignite" + "Fire Ball" + "Greater Projectiles" gems. The two on each end are "Support" gems that augment the center gem "Fire Ball". Granted they don't have to be in that configuration but you get my point.
Chance To Ignite increases chance of "burning" the target adding another 1/3 total damage that fireball does per tick.
Greater Projectiles multiplies the "projectiles" fired, but reduces damage by 50% @ level 1. Yea, that's right, gems actually level with you, but don't get hit by xp penalties for grouping or hunting weaker monsters.
The amount of customization between BOTH the gem AND combining the passive skill system is something to appreciate to be honest, and comparing POE to Diablo 3's skill system by ONLY looking at the skill tree is short sighted. That's what I was trying to get across.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I prefer Diablo III's system, I get a headache even just looking at PoE's talent system.
Also each customisation for D3 are skill changing factors, meaning they all change how the skill works, making it hit more targets, higher penetration, etc. Whereas PoE, while seemingly with more options, most are just increasing attribute values, say, 2% intelligence. My opinion is that, we already have an loot/equipment system that does that, why overlap it with a talent system when you can do something different with it?
But I guess in the end most hardcore players like whacking their brains out grinding each digits for min-max purposes, makes me remember this scene from The Big Bang Theory, where Sheldon complains about Window 7 compares to Window Vista, because it is Window 7 is much more user friendly, and he doesn't like that. In this case, we call this dumb down yeh?
I think simple, elegant and potential to have vast possibilities is the key to be a great game, quality over quantity, just because you have more circles and icons doesn't mean you are better.
But who am I to tell hardcore players any different, I'm just a carebear enthusiast who is posting on the internet. Maybe we should all just stop complaining about things and positively criticise the good and bad of the game.
Again, another horrible attempt to deflect Diablo 3's horrible skill system with another misdirected over-the-top exageration.
The first THREE bubbles right off of the Witch are:
+40% Mana regen rate
+10% SPELL damage
+10 dex
+10 str
Each that lead down a different path in order to get to other bubble paths, or how about the +10% to radius of AOE skills? There's about 5 of those in the skill tree.
Or, how about the +45% to weapon elemental damage?
These are ALL a massive of larger passive skills. I could LITERALLY go on for hours about all the different builds you can do and not even touch a small fraction of what POE's skill system offers.
Might I also add that "+2%" int doesn't even exist in POE? How bad of an exaggeration is that...seriously!
I see you have read the first 4 lines of my post.
I never said PoE talent system is bad or inferior, I just said I prefer Diablo III system more. I simply said I don't like to see so many icons at once, it is a visual nightmare.
Do you know why I don't know the talents well off by heart? Because the graphic layout is terrible, why are there so many irrelevanent icons showing up on my screen when I only need to half 1/5 of it? Can't they just fade out? My opinion is that, I don't want to look at it.
As I said many times in the post (which evidently proven by your reply) this game will only appeal to the hardcore gamers enjoy whacking their brains out grinding each digits for min-max purposes.
You don't need a complex talent tree to have a complex game. In my opinion, this right now just over-complicate the game.
Oh gee, I have definitely offended a fanboy.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Look at my post history before beta - i note D3 as sure buy for me.
That was before ob
Fair call. It does seem that the die hard diablo 1/2 fans are really disappointed with D3. I never played the first 2 and am really enjoying D3 but then again I wasn't expecting anything except a polished game that is a bit different to what I've played before, which it is. I like how all the skills seem viable in D3 unlike most games where unless you use the cookie cutter your at a disadvantage.
Don't let what you read on these forums fool you, as someone that has played D1 and D2 a great deal (still playing D2); D3 is a very good game in fact its a very very good game...I love the direction they have taken the game. It allows people whom have never played the series before pick it up and enjoy their time with friends that has played the series...to be honest I would rather play the game then sit and do math on skill trees for hours. As a working adult i don't have time for that crap anymore...just let me play; and that is exactly what D3 lets you do.
BTW, the mulitplayer is pure greatness...so much fun in OB with my friends (whom had never played before and now will be buying the game)
Bear in mind PoE is just an indie game. They don't have a whole lot of resources. It's unlikely they'll be able to rework their whole mess of a skill tree and bring it up to par with Diablo 3.
Theres a way more complex part of the skill system ( Active with support twinking ) that is based on gems you find in the game and you socket the items with. Those gems will level up as you play giving you skills and several effects, damage types, etcetc.. its amazing.
No it isn't, most skills are bland and 90% of support gems are just flat damage decreases. PoE isn't a bad game but anyone trying to make out its anything more than picking the current best skill and flat passive mods is delutional.
Yeah of course you are leaving out the real meat of the D3 skill tree which is the skill runes.
They allow for a huge amount of customization of your build that isn't a linear path down a skill tree.
The poe one looks like a hot mess to me. Very minor customizations for the most part compared to radically altering how all of your skills work in D3 in a large variety of ways.
There are literally millions of possible builds in D3.
But hey, what do I know, you played beta to level 13 for two hours right? You must know everything about the game.
Here is the problem, you guys are comparing apples to oranges... The "tree" you guys are talking about in PoE is not even the equivalent of the runes in D3. there is NO equivalent in D3 to the passive skill tree.
The comparison you should be making is between the SKILL system in PoE which uses socketed gems(think materia from FF7) and the skill system in D3. You can put in any skill there(equivalent to active/secondary/defensive skills from D3) and then you can put support gems in any linked slot(equivalent to runes in D3, except that you can have multiples connected to a single skill, as long as you have the sockets to support it, and can handle whatever penalty there is from having multiple support gems on a single skill. i.e. increased mana cost).
So basically, PoE has a skill system which is at least as robust as D3, PLUS they have the passive tree which allows you to specialize your character towards a specific role(since with millions of combinations of skills and, essentially, every skill open to every class, there are no fixed roles), and contains significant passives which drastically alter the way your character plays permanently, if you take them.
That being said, having played both, D3 seemed much smoother, cleaner, and just an overall more enjoyable experience. I don't know if that is just cause I have run through all of PoE a million times, or if it it just that extra bit of oomph that blizzard puts in all of their games. I think that right now D3 has better graphics and smoother gameplay than PoE, but PoEs skill system spanks D3 hard... The question is, is a more limited skill system with fixed class skills really such a downside? Or is a much more robust skill system really such a benefit? I don't know. I do know that I would love to see the level of polish and fun in D3 with the skill system and passive tree from PoE.
Edit: PS. I will say that their lobby system in D3 compared to D2 sucks monkey balls... just saying.
I see quite a few people who consider the PoE passive star map a PITA. Those people would fall in the average to below-average IQ range. I dont mean it as an insult, but that is just the truth.
As no one has pointed out in their "1% intelligence" (whatever the fuck that is since pure stats dont get a % boost on the passive options but come as flat numbers, just saying) arguments that in PoE you can Choose whether to allot 4 skill points to a 10 str+6% max hp+6% max hp+6% max hp node OR put those 4 points in a 10 str+10 dex+10 str+18% max hp node. You can pick and choose (min/max if thats what you call it) right down to the letter depending on which route you take to whichever main passive boost you are heading to. In that rough example, 4 points alone can be utilized to different effects by a marauder who is seeking to maximise his max hp limit while making best use of his points. I havent played D3, but tell me can you do this in D3? With 110odd passive points? Can D3 come even SLIGHTLY close to giving this many customisation opportunities?
And as that other guy has already said, these are ONLY the passive skills in PoE. There are actives ones here as well, damage skills, debuffs, buffs, buff auras and a mixture of the first 3 variants. Those can interract with the Passives and if that wasnt complex enough they can ALSO interact with Support skills to create a mind boggling number of skill variants. Sure most skills give atleast +3% boosts (not 1% like the misinformed people think; for every 1% boost you can show me I will show you a Dozen+ of 3% or 6% boosts) but add that all up and you could be looking at around +56% boost on damage of your most spammable skill OR 30% boost on a AOE skill OR a 32% damage boost on skill damage + 6% life leech OR +40% damage and chance to have projectiles pierce target OR...the possibilities are just endless and Im ONLY using damage as a source of argument leaving out passives that accommodate to buffs, armour, hp, mana, endurance-frenzy-power charges which by themselves are like micro passive trees with skills.
If you dont like PoE, then you dont like it. Same goes for D3, if you like it then others might not. But dont make bullshit statements like how the 2 games have similar skill trees or worse still that how PoE has a generic skill tree like every other game (saw someone say something along these lines). The passives in PoE alone blow most games out of the water. If that wasnt enough, the Active skills that have +Quality boost on them get a modified base stats and Im not even talking bout skill gem level here, AND they can be further augumented by ALL the the passives AND support gems AND item stats...Simple question, but can D3 do this with runes and skills and whatever you are using in your arguments?
The problem with games these days isnt that the average gamer is slightly slow and craves handholding, something that the WoW crowd is so known for. Just because it worked for WoW, Blizzard thinks its the winning formula in the gaming industry.
IMHO if any random developer made the game exactly like how D3 is right now but did not have the boon of being called Blizzard or calling its product Diablo 3, most of these people who are blindly defending this game would have raged on this product calling it a horrible D2 ripoff that charges $60 for a POS. Most people here are just defending the Diablo legacy and the Blizzard name even though the product is completely inferior in quality compared to its predecessor.
Yeah of course you are leaving out the real meat of the D3 skill tree which is the skill runes.
They allow for a huge amount of customization of your build that isn't a linear path down a skill tree.
The poe one looks like a hot mess to me. Very minor customizations for the most part compared to radically altering how all of your skills work in D3 in a large variety of ways.
There are literally millions of possible builds in D3.
But hey, what do I know, you played beta to level 13 for two hours right? You must know everything about the game.
Again, the rune system is childishly simple and doesn't really allow for any customization. I was looking at them for awhile myself and thinking they were half decent until I went back and played Diablo 2. Then it struck me that Diablo 3 is a horribly dumbed down system meant for people who can't think for themselves.
Not to mention the day I got into POE beta, and actually had a chance to look & fiddle with the passive tree allowed me to fully understand how WRONG I was in thinking Diablo 3's system was meant for anything but 13yr olds my friend.
Also, there is closed beta that has tested the full game, and they've come back saying all of the above about how bad the system is. The funny part? They were saying it in POE's beta.
I stopped reading there. That is completely false. Have a nice day.
Good day then, because it's true. Go look @ the "runes" you're clinging to. Most of them are pathetically small effects that almost have no effect on your skills even with 5 different runes on them. You're almost no different than any other class of the same time unless you add a rune that COMPLETELY changes what a skill does, and then those are very few and far between.
Obviously you haven't looked at many runes. There are those that leave the skill mostly intact but still drastically alter the playstyle behind it. Take ray of frost. One increases it's damage the longer it's on a single enemy, great for bosses. Another lowers it's arcane cost to 0 meaning you can use it forever. Another makes all enemies killed by it leave behind a patch of ice that deal damage, great for large groups of enemies and kiting. Another that just slows enemies more so you can do more damage before they get to you. Then of course sleet storm which makes a channeled bubble that damages all enemies that touch it, awesome for AOEing.
There are plenty of runes that alter the playstyle of a class. I find the rune system far superior to POE's gazillion passives that don't really alter your playstyle at all.
I don't care about skill trees. I care about how fun the game is with the skill choices available and the replay value. There were only a handful of viable and optimal builds per class in D2. POE is just a pimple on the rear end of D3.
I don't care about skill trees. I care about how fun the game is with the skill choices available and the replay value. There were only a handful of viable and optimal builds per class in D2. POE is just a pimple on the rear end of D3.
I don't get why everyone has a stick up their ass about "optimal builds." You know what I did when I played d2? I made leap attack polearm barbs and summoning druids. Hell, my level 24 fire Druid couldn't be Duriel solo in norm mode. I also don't get why people are bitching about difficulty. D2 was never about difficulty it was about creating a character, you know getting level ups so you could choose stats and skills? and then you went for whatever gear you thought was cool.
I liked Diablo 1 even more, just playing legit without duping on singleplayer was so interesting. What skills would I get? What quests? What uniques? What did that shrine do? And stat points rarely mattered beyond meeting item/skill requirements, but at least you could mold your character to fit the items and skills you were finding.
Is any of this in D3? I doubt it since they are too busy making guaranteed-fun cookie cutters that they call classes, but hey at least they'll be "optimal"
"I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob
Problem is that while it might still offer choice and freedom at later levels, the system simply doesn't show it. Skill trees are a brilliant, elegant design aspect. They works wonders in communicating the stuff you get to work towards and your progress gained.
Personally I like the fact that you don't have access to all skills at the end and get to swap them at a whim in other games: having important choices to make is what gives these games a sense of control. Please allow me to make mistakes
This is what was lacking in the stress test for me: I didn't feel like I had to make any important decision.
In fact there has been a lot of innovation in the hack & slash genre since D2 from other developers but D3 kind of chose to ignore that. Example:
I've installed Titan Quest + expansion again yesterday and that system is so much more intuitive. Giving people the option to pick two masteries (skill trees) to determine their class is awesome. Combined they make up for 81 class archetypes and in each skill tree there are choices to make (like the Hunting tree allowing for specialization towards spear and bow skills).
Brilliant design that; by taking a system that works (skill tree progress) and giving so many options and important choices to make, it feels like you, as a player, are at the helm.
Problem is that while it might still offer choice and freedom at later levels, the system simply doesn't show it. Skill trees are a brilliant, elegant design aspect. They works wonders in communicating the stuff you get to work towards and your progress gained.
Personally I like the fact that you don't have access to all skills at the end and get to swap them at a whim in other games: having important choices to make is what gives these games a sense of control. Please allow me to make mistakes
This is what was lacking in the stress test for me: I didn't feel like I had to make any important decision.
In fact there has been a lot of innovation in the hack & slash genre since D2 from other developers but D3 kind of chose to ignore that. Example:
I've installed Titan Quest + expansion again yesterday and that system is so much more intuitive. Giving people the option to pick two masteries (skill trees) to determine their class is awesome. Combined they make up for 81 class archetypes and in each skill tree there are choices to make (like the Hunting tree allowing for specialization towards spear and bow skills).
Brilliant design that; by taking a system that works (skill tree progress) and giving so many options and important choices to make, it feels like you, as a player, are at the helm.
I agree completely.
That, and when making certain skill decisions you got a nice "class-name". I used to try out stuff just to see what I'd be labeled as .
Unless you're looking for something a bit more permanent as in reroll your character because you put 2 many points into the wrong skill. Then ya D3 isn't that.
Yes. I want to be able to make mistakes because I'll have much more fun working out which way to go with my character that way. If there's ways to reset those mistakes they should be costly and something you'd want to avoid.
Titan quest does this to a certain extent: your choice of two masteries, statpoints spent in the character screen and points put in your base masteries to unlock higher tiers of skills in each mastery can't be reset in an unmodded game; only the points invested in actual skills are.
This way you still have freedom to swap builds but you can't start from scratch and reset "the foundation" of your character. This adds much more importance to the choices you make and an incentive to theorycraft and plan ahead to work towards synergies, etc. Just like in D2.
Having access to all abilities at max level and swapping them at a whim is not what I'd call "character development".
Unless you're looking for something a bit more permanent as in reroll your character because you put 2 many points into the wrong skill. Then ya D3 isn't that.
Yes. I want to be able to make mistakes because I'll have much more fun working out which way to go with my character that way. If there's ways to reset those mistakes they should be costly and something you'd want to avoid.
Titan quest does this to a certain extent: your choice of two masteries, statpoints spent in the character screen and points put in your base masteries to unlock higher tiers of skills in each mastery can't be reset in an unmodded game; only the points invested in actual skills are.
This way you still have freedom to swap builds but you can't start from scratch and reset "the foundation" of your character. This adds much more importance to the choices you make and an incentive to theorycraft and plan ahead to work towards synergies, etc. Just like in D2.
Having access to all abilities at max level and swapping them at a whim is not what I'd call "character development".
Never really said this was character development, infact i've stated similar things before.
Seems we can agree on something. I think this is the main issue most people are having with it.
You could make the spider web smaller. It would be similar to a skill tree that you have to put five points into to advance. The difference in the POE system is that you don't have to put five points into all five of those bubbles and most of those bubbles aren't all exactly the same. Plus, there are multiple different paths that you can take to get past those skills. In a typical skill tree that most games use, you cannot. You either spend five points or you don't get to progress down the path further. The fact that you could potentially make a marauder that is incredibly heavy INT that weilds a staff is what makes it so much better than D3's system in my opinion. Their progression system is almost sandboxish in effect. You can literally do anything that you want with that character, even if it doesn't make sense or is completely ineffective in the later stages of the game.
I actually like the graphics a lot better in POE.
It has the same itemization system as D3.
Skills are gained through gems and those skills are modified by linked support gems, a very interesting and cool spin on what we normally see from this genre.
Energy shields? D3 does not have this.
The art style is darker and grittier. Back are the days of dark dungeons and spine chilling environments. Warden's Quarter anyone?
POE took mana/rejuv/health potions and actually evolved them and made them better. D3 is just trying to remove them from the game.
POE designed the game to allow players to craft their own gear to a certain extent. D3 just added NPC crafting, copied and pasted from WoW. Called it revolutionary.
POE doesn't have a RMT auction house, instead, they have instanced lobby hubs. You can talk to anyone and everyone playing the game, not just the handful of players in your game.
Now, I'm not a D3 hater. it's more polished when it comes to UI. It should be too, considering the money and manpower involved. It's an already established IP with a significant amount of lore, which gives it the edge in story as well. Though, considering the financials involved and the development process involved, Grinding Gear Games, in my opinion, has a better game in potential. They won't win in terms of profit, but I really think they will show that a small, talented dev group can do things that even the biggest gaming companies can't.
I will play both PoE and D3 (already have tried both in Beta). D3 is mainly getting bought by me because school will be out and the other games I want to play are still a month+ away (I almost pre-ordered Tera I am so bored, it was pretty decent). Those games being TSW, GW2 and PoE. I am pretty sure I will not be playing D3 a few months after release, just because I feel the customization is lacking. The runes just dont do it for me. I read the choices and at least 3 of them are pretty awful on almost every ability. Classes will be pigeon-holed into a certain playstyle a few months down the road when people realize the optimal abilities and combination of those abilities.
I hope I am proven wrong and D3 offers massive choices, but I just don't see it happening. I feel D3 offers the illusion of choice.
POE doesn't have a RMT auction house, instead, they have instanced lobby hubs. You can talk to anyone and everyone playing the game, not just the handful of players in your game.
Question:
For a "free online-only action role-playing game", I'm pretty sure they will have a RMT Cash Shop at least.
so yeah, not many people realise that I think.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Yeah of course you are leaving out the real meat of the D3 skill tree which is the skill runes.
They allow for a huge amount of customization of your build that isn't a linear path down a skill tree.
The poe one looks like a hot mess to me. Very minor customizations for the most part compared to radically altering how all of your skills work in D3 in a large variety of ways.
There are literally millions of possible builds in D3.
But hey, what do I know, you played beta to level 13 for two hours right? You must know everything about the game.
Here is the problem, you guys are comparing apples to oranges... The "tree" you guys are talking about in PoE is not even the equivalent of the runes in D3. there is NO equivalent in D3 to the passive skill tree.
The comparison you should be making is between the SKILL system in PoE which uses socketed gems(think materia from FF7) and the skill system in D3. You can put in any skill there(equivalent to active/secondary/defensive skills from D3) and then you can put support gems in any linked slot(equivalent to runes in D3, except that you can have multiples connected to a single skill, as long as you have the sockets to support it, and can handle whatever penalty there is from having multiple support gems on a single skill. i.e. increased mana cost).
So basically, PoE has a skill system which is at least as robust as D3, PLUS they have the passive tree which allows you to specialize your character towards a specific role(since with millions of combinations of skills and, essentially, every skill open to every class, there are no fixed roles), and contains significant passives which drastically alter the way your character plays permanently, if you take them.
That being said, having played both, D3 seemed much smoother, cleaner, and just an overall more enjoyable experience. I don't know if that is just cause I have run through all of PoE a million times, or if it it just that extra bit of oomph that blizzard puts in all of their games. I think that right now D3 has better graphics and smoother gameplay than PoE, but PoEs skill system spanks D3 hard... The question is, is a more limited skill system with fixed class skills really such a downside? Or is a much more robust skill system really such a benefit? I don't know. I do know that I would love to see the level of polish and fun in D3 with the skill system and passive tree from PoE.
Edit: PS. I will say that their lobby system in D3 compared to D2 sucks monkey balls... just saying.
Great post . Probably the least biased thing I've seen written on this controversial subject. I agree with just about everything.
It's more or less irrevocably clear that PoE's progression system is far more varied - I don't even see how that can be argued considering anyone can go and research it for themselves. On the other hand though, like you said, D3 is very smooth, clean, and despite how disappointed I am with it in general, I have to admit that the combat "felt right". Naturally, PoE is a bit choppier and slower paced, but I still greatly prefer the art style of it to D3.
All in all, both games have their pros and cons, but the choice isn't a difficult one for me. I like depth and at least some freedom of choice, so if I had to choose, it would be PoE hands down.
Problem is that while it might still offer choice and freedom at later levels, the system simply doesn't show it. Skill trees are a brilliant, elegant design aspect. They works wonders in communicating the stuff you get to work towards and your progress gained.
Personally I like the fact that you don't have access to all skills at the end and get to swap them at a whim in other games: having important choices to make is what gives these games a sense of control. Please allow me to make mistakes
This is what was lacking in the stress test for me: I didn't feel like I had to make any important decision.
In fact there has been a lot of innovation in the hack & slash genre since D2 from other developers but D3 kind of chose to ignore that. Example:
I've installed Titan Quest + expansion again yesterday and that system is so much more intuitive. Giving people the option to pick two masteries (skill trees) to determine their class is awesome. Combined they make up for 81 class archetypes and in each skill tree there are choices to make (like the Hunting tree allowing for specialization towards spear and bow skills).
Brilliant design that; by taking a system that works (skill tree progress) and giving so many options and important choices to make, it feels like you, as a player, are at the helm.
Ha, glad to see I wasn't the only one who decided to get Titan Quest going again after this. If the D3 beta did anything, it got me itching for a good ARPG again, and Titan Quest is certainly one of the best (imo).
I've got a Templar build already planned out - looking forward to testing it
Funny post Lobo. I am a fan of both of these games, but you compare a passive skill tree in a game that most definitely lacks active skills as a positive over an active skill tree in a game that has a ridiculous amount of active skills with amazing affects/sounds and variety which points out the greatest flaw in PoE in my opinion.
I do love the PoE tree, but the best thing about it is the ability to customize your char regardless of class in unique ways and builds, but this post does not express that in any way.
D3 has 96 billion skill combinations with a plethora of active skills so it doesn't lack as much customization as people are thinking.
Anyways, both great games. I hope PoE chooses the right cash shop model and can finish their game and keep it going.
Comments
They did that for point-spreading. Meaning that adding ALL of that into one node for ONE point would simply be too unbalanced. That actually was one giant node down there for +30% to wand damage right below the +50%, however they found out that almost every witch was popping that node regardless if they were speccing in wands or not.
Crying foul because of balance issues is simply silly expresso. What they did didn't demean the value of the passive tree whatsoever.
The amount of customization that the Passive "Web" allows is actually fairly impressive. It's actually kind of sad on my end that most people cannot appreciate it. However, the Passive tree is not 100% of POE's system. It's actually a small percentage (40%?) of the skill system overall meant to work in tandom. Concentrating on this passive tree alone does nothing but blind you from the rest.
However, I have done quite a bit of research into Diablo 3's skill & rune system. 6 active skills at any time usable, and 5 runes per active skill? I've seen most of those runes, and none of them have impressed me. Speaking from a mathmatical standpoint almost all of them are so small in effect it's not even funny.
When you add +33% of an effect to a SMALL static number it does nothing impressive but fool the user into thinking it's worth something because it's a big number. That is pretty much Diablo 3 in a nutshell for me bud.
You're forgetting that there are also slotted gems that can be "connected" through links in equipment to augment each other. Such as linking "chance to ignite" + "Fire Ball" + "Greater Projectiles" gems. The two on each end are "Support" gems that augment the center gem "Fire Ball". Granted they don't have to be in that configuration but you get my point.
Chance To Ignite increases chance of "burning" the target adding another 1/3 total damage that fireball does per tick.
Greater Projectiles multiplies the "projectiles" fired, but reduces damage by 50% @ level 1. Yea, that's right, gems actually level with you, but don't get hit by xp penalties for grouping or hunting weaker monsters.
The amount of customization between BOTH the gem AND combining the passive skill system is something to appreciate to be honest, and comparing POE to Diablo 3's skill system by ONLY looking at the skill tree is short sighted. That's what I was trying to get across.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
It all seems useless to me in a game you can run through holding a tree branch while naked.
A lot of us did the same thing in Diablo 2 & 1
. Albeit, in Diablo 1 it sometimes was a child's peg-leg LOL!
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I see you have read the first 4 lines of my post.
I never said PoE talent system is bad or inferior, I just said I prefer Diablo III system more. I simply said I don't like to see so many icons at once, it is a visual nightmare.
Do you know why I don't know the talents well off by heart? Because the graphic layout is terrible, why are there so many irrelevanent icons showing up on my screen when I only need to half 1/5 of it? Can't they just fade out? My opinion is that, I don't want to look at it.
As I said many times in the post (which evidently proven by your reply) this game will only appeal to the hardcore gamers enjoy whacking their brains out grinding each digits for min-max purposes.
You don't need a complex talent tree to have a complex game. In my opinion, this right now just over-complicate the game.
Oh gee, I have definitely offended a fanboy.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Don't let what you read on these forums fool you, as someone that has played D1 and D2 a great deal (still playing D2); D3 is a very good game in fact its a very very good game...I love the direction they have taken the game. It allows people whom have never played the series before pick it up and enjoy their time with friends that has played the series...to be honest I would rather play the game then sit and do math on skill trees for hours. As a working adult i don't have time for that crap anymore...just let me play; and that is exactly what D3 lets you do.
BTW, the mulitplayer is pure greatness...so much fun in OB with my friends (whom had never played before and now will be buying the game)
Bear in mind PoE is just an indie game. They don't have a whole lot of resources. It's unlikely they'll be able to rework their whole mess of a skill tree and bring it up to par with Diablo 3.
No it isn't, most skills are bland and 90% of support gems are just flat damage decreases. PoE isn't a bad game but anyone trying to make out its anything more than picking the current best skill and flat passive mods is delutional.
Here is the problem, you guys are comparing apples to oranges... The "tree" you guys are talking about in PoE is not even the equivalent of the runes in D3. there is NO equivalent in D3 to the passive skill tree.
The comparison you should be making is between the SKILL system in PoE which uses socketed gems(think materia from FF7) and the skill system in D3. You can put in any skill there(equivalent to active/secondary/defensive skills from D3) and then you can put support gems in any linked slot(equivalent to runes in D3, except that you can have multiples connected to a single skill, as long as you have the sockets to support it, and can handle whatever penalty there is from having multiple support gems on a single skill. i.e. increased mana cost).
So basically, PoE has a skill system which is at least as robust as D3, PLUS they have the passive tree which allows you to specialize your character towards a specific role(since with millions of combinations of skills and, essentially, every skill open to every class, there are no fixed roles), and contains significant passives which drastically alter the way your character plays permanently, if you take them.
That being said, having played both, D3 seemed much smoother, cleaner, and just an overall more enjoyable experience. I don't know if that is just cause I have run through all of PoE a million times, or if it it just that extra bit of oomph that blizzard puts in all of their games. I think that right now D3 has better graphics and smoother gameplay than PoE, but PoEs skill system spanks D3 hard... The question is, is a more limited skill system with fixed class skills really such a downside? Or is a much more robust skill system really such a benefit? I don't know. I do know that I would love to see the level of polish and fun in D3 with the skill system and passive tree from PoE.
Edit: PS. I will say that their lobby system in D3 compared to D2 sucks monkey balls... just saying.
I see quite a few people who consider the PoE passive star map a PITA. Those people would fall in the average to below-average IQ range. I dont mean it as an insult, but that is just the truth.
As no one has pointed out in their "1% intelligence" (whatever the fuck that is since pure stats dont get a % boost on the passive options but come as flat numbers, just saying) arguments that in PoE you can Choose whether to allot 4 skill points to a 10 str+6% max hp+6% max hp+6% max hp node OR put those 4 points in a 10 str+10 dex+10 str+18% max hp node. You can pick and choose (min/max if thats what you call it) right down to the letter depending on which route you take to whichever main passive boost you are heading to. In that rough example, 4 points alone can be utilized to different effects by a marauder who is seeking to maximise his max hp limit while making best use of his points. I havent played D3, but tell me can you do this in D3? With 110odd passive points? Can D3 come even SLIGHTLY close to giving this many customisation opportunities?
And as that other guy has already said, these are ONLY the passive skills in PoE. There are actives ones here as well, damage skills, debuffs, buffs, buff auras and a mixture of the first 3 variants. Those can interract with the Passives and if that wasnt complex enough they can ALSO interact with Support skills to create a mind boggling number of skill variants. Sure most skills give atleast +3% boosts (not 1% like the misinformed people think; for every 1% boost you can show me I will show you a Dozen+ of 3% or 6% boosts) but add that all up and you could be looking at around +56% boost on damage of your most spammable skill OR 30% boost on a AOE skill OR a 32% damage boost on skill damage + 6% life leech OR +40% damage and chance to have projectiles pierce target OR...the possibilities are just endless and Im ONLY using damage as a source of argument leaving out passives that accommodate to buffs, armour, hp, mana, endurance-frenzy-power charges which by themselves are like micro passive trees with skills.
If you dont like PoE, then you dont like it. Same goes for D3, if you like it then others might not. But dont make bullshit statements like how the 2 games have similar skill trees or worse still that how PoE has a generic skill tree like every other game (saw someone say something along these lines). The passives in PoE alone blow most games out of the water. If that wasnt enough, the Active skills that have +Quality boost on them get a modified base stats and Im not even talking bout skill gem level here, AND they can be further augumented by ALL the the passives AND support gems AND item stats...Simple question, but can D3 do this with runes and skills and whatever you are using in your arguments?
The problem with games these days isnt that the average gamer is slightly slow and craves handholding, something that the WoW crowd is so known for. Just because it worked for WoW, Blizzard thinks its the winning formula in the gaming industry.
IMHO if any random developer made the game exactly like how D3 is right now but did not have the boon of being called Blizzard or calling its product Diablo 3, most of these people who are blindly defending this game would have raged on this product calling it a horrible D2 ripoff that charges $60 for a POS. Most people here are just defending the Diablo legacy and the Blizzard name even though the product is completely inferior in quality compared to its predecessor.
Obviously you haven't looked at many runes. There are those that leave the skill mostly intact but still drastically alter the playstyle behind it. Take ray of frost. One increases it's damage the longer it's on a single enemy, great for bosses. Another lowers it's arcane cost to 0 meaning you can use it forever. Another makes all enemies killed by it leave behind a patch of ice that deal damage, great for large groups of enemies and kiting. Another that just slows enemies more so you can do more damage before they get to you. Then of course sleet storm which makes a channeled bubble that damages all enemies that touch it, awesome for AOEing.
There are plenty of runes that alter the playstyle of a class. I find the rune system far superior to POE's gazillion passives that don't really alter your playstyle at all.
I don't care about skill trees. I care about how fun the game is with the skill choices available and the replay value. There were only a handful of viable and optimal builds per class in D2. POE is just a pimple on the rear end of D3.
I don't get why everyone has a stick up their ass about "optimal builds." You know what I did when I played d2? I made leap attack polearm barbs and summoning druids. Hell, my level 24 fire Druid couldn't be Duriel solo in norm mode. I also don't get why people are bitching about difficulty. D2 was never about difficulty it was about creating a character, you know getting level ups so you could choose stats and skills? and then you went for whatever gear you thought was cool.
I liked Diablo 1 even more, just playing legit without duping on singleplayer was so interesting. What skills would I get? What quests? What uniques? What did that shrine do? And stat points rarely mattered beyond meeting item/skill requirements, but at least you could mold your character to fit the items and skills you were finding.
Is any of this in D3? I doubt it since they are too busy making guaranteed-fun cookie cutters that they call classes, but hey at least they'll be "optimal"
"I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob
PoE hands down
Problem is that while it might still offer choice and freedom at later levels, the system simply doesn't show it. Skill trees are a brilliant, elegant design aspect. They works wonders in communicating the stuff you get to work towards and your progress gained.
Personally I like the fact that you don't have access to all skills at the end and get to swap them at a whim in other games: having important choices to make is what gives these games a sense of control. Please allow me to make mistakes
This is what was lacking in the stress test for me: I didn't feel like I had to make any important decision.
In fact there has been a lot of innovation in the hack & slash genre since D2 from other developers but D3 kind of chose to ignore that. Example:
I've installed Titan Quest + expansion again yesterday and that system is so much more intuitive. Giving people the option to pick two masteries (skill trees) to determine their class is awesome. Combined they make up for 81 class archetypes and in each skill tree there are choices to make (like the Hunting tree allowing for specialization towards spear and bow skills).
Brilliant design that; by taking a system that works (skill tree progress) and giving so many options and important choices to make, it feels like you, as a player, are at the helm.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I agree completely.
That, and when making certain skill decisions you got a nice "class-name". I used to try out stuff just to see what I'd be labeled as
.
Yes. I want to be able to make mistakes because I'll have much more fun working out which way to go with my character that way. If there's ways to reset those mistakes they should be costly and something you'd want to avoid.
Titan quest does this to a certain extent: your choice of two masteries, statpoints spent in the character screen and points put in your base masteries to unlock higher tiers of skills in each mastery can't be reset in an unmodded game; only the points invested in actual skills are.
This way you still have freedom to swap builds but you can't start from scratch and reset "the foundation" of your character. This adds much more importance to the choices you make and an incentive to theorycraft and plan ahead to work towards synergies, etc. Just like in D2.
Having access to all abilities at max level and swapping them at a whim is not what I'd call "character development".
My brand new bloggity blog.
My brand new bloggity blog.
You could make the spider web smaller. It would be similar to a skill tree that you have to put five points into to advance. The difference in the POE system is that you don't have to put five points into all five of those bubbles and most of those bubbles aren't all exactly the same. Plus, there are multiple different paths that you can take to get past those skills. In a typical skill tree that most games use, you cannot. You either spend five points or you don't get to progress down the path further. The fact that you could potentially make a marauder that is incredibly heavy INT that weilds a staff is what makes it so much better than D3's system in my opinion. Their progression system is almost sandboxish in effect. You can literally do anything that you want with that character, even if it doesn't make sense or is completely ineffective in the later stages of the game.
I actually like the graphics a lot better in POE.
It has the same itemization system as D3.
Skills are gained through gems and those skills are modified by linked support gems, a very interesting and cool spin on what we normally see from this genre.
Energy shields? D3 does not have this.
The art style is darker and grittier. Back are the days of dark dungeons and spine chilling environments. Warden's Quarter anyone?
POE took mana/rejuv/health potions and actually evolved them and made them better. D3 is just trying to remove them from the game.
POE designed the game to allow players to craft their own gear to a certain extent. D3 just added NPC crafting, copied and pasted from WoW. Called it revolutionary.
POE doesn't have a RMT auction house, instead, they have instanced lobby hubs. You can talk to anyone and everyone playing the game, not just the handful of players in your game.
Now, I'm not a D3 hater. it's more polished when it comes to UI. It should be too, considering the money and manpower involved. It's an already established IP with a significant amount of lore, which gives it the edge in story as well. Though, considering the financials involved and the development process involved, Grinding Gear Games, in my opinion, has a better game in potential. They won't win in terms of profit, but I really think they will show that a small, talented dev group can do things that even the biggest gaming companies can't.
I'll be playing both.
I will play both PoE and D3 (already have tried both in Beta). D3 is mainly getting bought by me because school will be out and the other games I want to play are still a month+ away (I almost pre-ordered Tera I am so bored, it was pretty decent). Those games being TSW, GW2 and PoE. I am pretty sure I will not be playing D3 a few months after release, just because I feel the customization is lacking. The runes just dont do it for me. I read the choices and at least 3 of them are pretty awful on almost every ability. Classes will be pigeon-holed into a certain playstyle a few months down the road when people realize the optimal abilities and combination of those abilities.
I hope I am proven wrong and D3 offers massive choices, but I just don't see it happening. I feel D3 offers the illusion of choice.
Question:
For a "free online-only action role-playing game", I'm pretty sure they will have a RMT Cash Shop at least.
so yeah, not many people realise that I think.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
what is D3 ?
I read through 4-5 pages, I notice No one mentioned the PoE's 'Passive web Skill tree' is... FFX's
I actually remember that being the WORST skill system in FF's history by most fan's and reviewers
Great post
. Probably the least biased thing I've seen written on this controversial subject. I agree with just about everything.
It's more or less irrevocably clear that PoE's progression system is far more varied - I don't even see how that can be argued considering anyone can go and research it for themselves. On the other hand though, like you said, D3 is very smooth, clean, and despite how disappointed I am with it in general, I have to admit that the combat "felt right". Naturally, PoE is a bit choppier and slower paced, but I still greatly prefer the art style of it to D3.
All in all, both games have their pros and cons, but the choice isn't a difficult one for me. I like depth and at least some freedom of choice, so if I had to choose, it would be PoE hands down.
Ha, glad to see I wasn't the only one who decided to get Titan Quest going again after this. If the D3 beta did anything, it got me itching for a good ARPG again, and Titan Quest is certainly one of the best (imo).
I've got a Templar build already planned out - looking forward to testing it
Funny post Lobo. I am a fan of both of these games, but you compare a passive skill tree in a game that most definitely lacks active skills as a positive over an active skill tree in a game that has a ridiculous amount of active skills with amazing affects/sounds and variety which points out the greatest flaw in PoE in my opinion.
I do love the PoE tree, but the best thing about it is the ability to customize your char regardless of class in unique ways and builds, but this post does not express that in any way.
D3 has 96 billion skill combinations with a plethora of active skills so it doesn't lack as much customization as people are thinking.
Anyways, both great games. I hope PoE chooses the right cash shop model and can finish their game and keep it going.