If GW2 has 5million 1 players and wow 5 million it has effectively beaten wow but wow is far from "killed" with those numbers.
I'd consider wow "dead" when it's under 1 million subs not because 1 million is bad, its a very high sub number especially for a game that would be 8+ years old but completely based relative to what it has had and it can only really go down from there like a corpse slowly decaying.
What's interesting, if you consider it, is that they've never made this type of statement in the past. There must be an incredible amount of confidence in the game itself. I get the feeling, and maybe it's just me, that at some point in recent history someone at ArenaNet looked at the whole product, took a step back and said "Holy crap, we actually did it."
Ya. If you talk to them @ the conventions, or see some of the development vids, you get that sense too.
They have some really talented artists there, but I definitely think they all went through their own 'hmmm... will this actually work?' type moments. It's a really great feeling when that ambitious project is finally coming together, and you can see all those random pieces actually forming a cohesive whole.
I just hope they don't get too much flak for feeling proud of their work. It's kind of shitty, but I'm sure some people will (and have) label them as 'arrogant' because they are proud of their hard work.
Sad to see devs get caught up in their own hype machine. More successful than WoW?? Like financially? Cuz he's dreaming if that's what he means... Plus they had their chance against WoW and didn't even come close to it's success, now it's a victory 7 years later with a whole new game? Umm no.
I'm sure GW2 will be great fun, but these guys are starting to sound just like all the rest...
But there is no hype for GW2. Didn't you get the memo?
but WoW will always be there .. its an easy game.. and with pandas coming lil kids are gunna go crazy.. what little kid dosnt wanna make a monk panda named sad? however i do think alot of the older players will quit WoW for GW2 just bcuz most of em played the first one and who dosnt want WvW alot of good things happening in gw2 i cant wait to try it out the hardest part for me is chosin a class.. Ele or Necro.. :P
So what they want and will not settle for anything other than, is a WOW killer?
Mike O'Brien said just the opposite of that in a recent interview linked in another thread. So no, they are not thinking they will be the "WoW Killer." Only Blizzard can kill WoW.
I was referring to this.
Mike O'brien:
"We were number two to World of Warcraft with Guild Wars, now we want to beat them. We’ll be satisfied when Guild Wars 2 is the most successful MMO"
And how do they consider a non-sub-based game as being number two to the number one Sub based game?
That's stupid... How can GW be second to World of Warcraft when it's not a MMO? This is my point on why I don't trust Anet's marketing. Because they claimed that GW1 wasn't advertised as a MMORPG, but here they are doing it again and advertising it as a MMO by comparing it to MMO. VERY MISLEADING!!!
"The Most Successfull MMO" with their revnue model will mean either an abusive cash shop, or constant payed content updates, sorry but if you exclude china WoW has about 4-5M players which pay 15-13US a month(or more in EUUK heck even APAC areas), they had so fare 3 expansions which every one of them became one biggest selling titles of that year, they've been out of 7 years and had on many occasions over 1B dollars a year in revenue.
I dont think that GW2/Anet can do any thing to be considered the most successfull MMO to date, no matter how good they'll do. I dont think in terms of pure economic, cultural, and industry change any game atleast in the forseeable future could ever beat WoW.
O M G. People on this site will stir up shit using anything available. That was a perfectly lovely short article in FORBES. For where it was written for, it was light as air and tasted like candy. It's amazing that people can make such a huge issue of things that are so small. What company DOESN'T want to beat Blizzard? Anet is just doing something a little different and not trying to beat Blizzard by totally cloning WoW. Blizzard does WoW best. There is no reason to play a different WoW when it's already there to play.....
WILL Anet "beat" Blizzard? Seriously does anyone other than Anet care? I hope for their sake they do, but it's not going to dictate what game I play or change my spending habits or anything else. I'm going to play GW2 now because I gave Blizzard 6 years of my life. I'm ready for a change. I will probably even buy a few things in the item shop. (Oooooo.....I'm baaaad.) But this article doesn't move me in any way. I'm still wondering why the big deal is being made of it.
When the reference to "win it" was made .....I like many others feel that having more purchasers of the game than any other would be the measure(since GW2 does not have an ongoing subscription fee).
Where will these buyers come from ?
- existing mmog player base
-previous mmpog players who are not currently playing a game
- new players to mmog games
------------
My point GW2 success does not just have to come ONLY out of the hide of the existing gamer market ..and not just out of WOW.In fact there may well be a signifigant number of players who keep their WOW subscription AND purchase GW2.They may end up playing both ,one more than the other,or focus on just one
.Also note..Guild Wars 2 is at the BEGINNING of it's life cycle.....WOW and other current games in the market.....are not.
i'd hate to see you at a sporting event. cheering your team with such chants as "don't try too hard, you might hurt your leg!" or "it's okay to lose, we only came here for the hotdogs!"
striving for mediocre.
the problem is you assume that anyone offended (and is anyone really offended?) is that way and are also fans of GW2, maybe the people who have a problem with his comment aren't falling all over themselves about this game (raises hand).
and as I and a few others have pointed out to say that GW was number 2 to WOW only works while talking to industry outsiders like folks at forbes who may not be aware that Anet may be counting subs that weren't active etc.
i see no problem in what i wrote. yes, people seemed offended. angry. raging. purple-faced. mouse-totin'. keyboard-clickin'. and i didn't assume the angries were fans of gw2. they seemed the opposite. they seemed fans of wow. you're confusing me. did you read what i wrote?
you didn't, did you?
my point (and it's a very good point), is there's no need to be upset at the guy's comment that he wants to overtake wow. of course he does. every mmo dev wants that. they dream it. breathe it. in the heart of hearts, it's what they want. to get on top of wow and pump it hard while screaming, "who yer daddy now, huh? huh? HUH?"
that's what they want.
and so they should. it might explain why gw2 looks so good. with that kind of aggressive attitude, it's no wonder they're running about the ring with rolls of nickels in their gloves.
i don't think it only works to forbes. i think it's what's driven them from day one. they're patient about it, but you can see they're trying for something monumentally epic. and you only try this hard if you want to take the throne.
i hope they do it.
i really do.
because it means this game will, at last, be half as good as all the promises every mmo has made in the past 5 years (or more). it might be blissfully worth the price of the box and anything else they want to talk me into buying.
maybe even a tshirt.
in the meantime, here's a chant just for you: "i don't think it's great! i don't think it's bad! i just don't know what to think because i don't want to have an opinion on anything, even this chant i'm chanting, so please don't be offended and think i'm having an opinion when i'm not. am i right?"
*helpful* it's not the kind of chant you need to say out loud, so no one will know.
Interesting to see how the fan's react to this statement. It's been said again and again how "Anet doesn't give a damn about money" all over these forums, yet now it comes out the Anet wants to be the big guy. Does that change anyone's outlook of the game and/or company?
So what they want and will not settle for anything other than, is a WOW killer?
Mike O'Brien said just the opposite of that in a recent interview linked in another thread. So no, they are not thinking they will be the "WoW Killer." Only Blizzard can kill WoW.
I was referring to this.
Mike O'brien:
"We were number two to World of Warcraft with Guild Wars, now we want to beat them. Well be satisfied when Guild Wars 2 is the most successful MMO"
And how do they consider a non-sub-based game as being number two to the number one Sub based game?
That's stupid... How can GW be second to World of Warcraft when it's not a MMO? This is my point on why I don't trust Anet's marketing. Because they claimed that GW1 wasn't advertised as a MMORPG, but here they are doing it again and advertising it as a MMO by comparing it to MMO. VERY MISLEADING!!!
So what they want and will not settle for anything other than, is a WOW killer?
Mike O'Brien said just the opposite of that in a recent interview linked in another thread. So no, they are not thinking they will be the "WoW Killer." Only Blizzard can kill WoW.
I was referring to this.
Mike O'brien:
"We were number two to World of Warcraft with Guild Wars, now we want to beat them. We’ll be satisfied when Guild Wars 2 is the most successful MMO"
And how do they consider a non-sub-based game as being number two to the number one Sub based game?
That's stupid... How can GW be second to World of Warcraft when it's not a MMO? This is my point on why I don't trust Anet's marketing. Because they claimed that GW1 wasn't advertised as a MMORPG, but here they are doing it again and advertising it as a MMO by comparing it to MMO. VERY MISLEADING!!!
GW2 IS an MMO.
Learn to read!
Another point to make: since GW1 is universally considered NOT to be an MMO, wouldn't GW2 be their FIRST entry into the MMO world? Isn't there some unspoken rule of caution about over-hyping first MMOs made by companies?
I am not happy with the announcement, only because every developer that claimed they were going to ddethrone WoW has crashed and burned. Not that I don't think GW2 could be a good game, but saying you're a WoW-killer is like the kiss of death in the industry.
I am not happy with the announcement, only because every developer that claimed they were going to ddethrone WoW has crashed and burned. Not that I don't think GW2 could be a good game, but saying you're a WoW-killer is like the kiss of death in the industry.
I don't think they're actually saying they are going to de-throne wow. What I think they're saying or trying to communicate to the playerbase out there is that Anet's GW2 dev team is "in it to win it"; they are determined to work hard and do the very best they can do make GW2 as good as it can possibly be. By saying that they want to beat wow, is more of a statement of their ambtion and their goal to be the best mmo they possibly can than a claim of success prior to release. Just how I'm understanding it.
Another point to make: since GW1 is universally considered NOT to be an MMO, wouldn't GW2 be their FIRST entry into the MMO world? Isn't there some unspoken rule of caution about over-hyping first MMOs made by companies?
I think the problem was/is GW1 at the time did not fit into the MMO market nor the co-op market either. A co-op with MMO elements was how it was often described but also b2p. It was so much more then a co-op the community was and is something else. The live events and the guild sponsored events are something I will always remember personally as some of the best ever in any game. Not sure if there had ever been b2p's MMO'ish games on the market then either.
Interesting to see how the fan's react to this statement. It's been said again and again how "Anet doesn't give a damn about money" all over these forums, yet now it comes out the Anet wants to be the big guy. Does that change anyone's outlook of the game and/or company?
i'm happy for a gaming company to want to be the big guy. happy for them to want to make money. it means they'll be around longer than the guys working out of their basement for lols.
What if they had 5+ mill people playing in NA/EU/Oceanic and the asked everyone to pay = $5 a month for some credit in the shop and such?Wouldn't that pretty much put them at the top in the west?
Would you be willing to put out that $5 a month for this?
On the other hand maybe they're just going after box/digital sales of the game.
Great. Now you've made me paranoid. I certainly hope that GW2 doesn't get the traditional "dumbing down" treatment to make it more appealing to even MORE casual players. I think I would puke from being so emotionally upset by that. I watched that happen to my EQ2 over the years as it became more and more WoW-ized. It was so terribly sad. EQ2 is not at all the game it once was, but it did attract some WoW players finally, and....unfortunately.
I sincerely hope that ArenaNet is able to fulfill their dreams without compromising their vision.
Figured I'd respond here since that thread was locked.
I have the same hope, and I know exactly what you mean by the SOE WOW treatment. SWG is all I have to say about that. A-net has shown over the last few years they have a core vision different than just about all MMO dev houses, lets hope they stick to that and have confidence that vision alone can acheive such a goal.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Part of the reason so many MMORPGs have failed to retain a large subscriber base is because the developers have no desire to actually "beat" WoW. They're content with releasing a game that will hopefully appeal to a few hundred thousand WoW castoffs while continuing to milk off subscription fees with minimal content updates. I somehow doubt that when Blizzard designed World of Warcraft that they designed it with intentions of just being a game people played if they didn't like EQ.
WoW pretty much replaced EQ because it did everything EQ did 100x better. The developers completely redefined the genre rather than being content with releasing a slightly updated version of what had come before it.
Oh dear ... this can not end well. They invoked the curse of the WoW killer.
This is the mmorpg industry equivalent of accidentily spilling blood on a long forgotten, ancient indian burial site in the middle of a dark forest.
Everyone knows you should never do that!
V_V
"As for the World of Warcraft-killer slogan that has been bandied about in the press, O’Brien said “nothing is going to kill WoW other than WoW. "
So I wouldn't worry too much about the curse. It doesn't apply here when Mike clearly knows about it .
Stating that "nothing is going to kill WoW other than WoW" seems to contradict the "other" statement ... but yes, it is a powerful chant and used in the past to avert this ancient evil. But did Mike say it four times in quick succession while looking in a polished steel mirror? Everyone knows that is the only way it works ...
As discussed earlier on in this thread, "beating WoW" does not necessarily mean being a "WoW Killer". There is a HUGE difference. I am surprised you don't see it.
Like mentioned before, beating WoW can simply mean generating more sales and gaining greater popularity for GW2 in the months and years ahead than WoW. It is definately a possibility.
What won't happen is WoW dying completely because of GW2. WoW can survive and can still be called a success even if it loses 5m subs over the next years as it just means WoW still has 5m people subscribed per month which is still a staggering amount of subs lol.
Comments
Beating wow does not equal killing it,
If GW2 has 5million 1 players and wow 5 million it has effectively beaten wow but wow is far from "killed" with those numbers.
I'd consider wow "dead" when it's under 1 million subs not because 1 million is bad, its a very high sub number especially for a game that would be 8+ years old but completely based relative to what it has had and it can only really go down from there like a corpse slowly decaying.
Ya. If you talk to them @ the conventions, or see some of the development vids, you get that sense too.
They have some really talented artists there, but I definitely think they all went through their own 'hmmm... will this actually work?' type moments. It's a really great feeling when that ambitious project is finally coming together, and you can see all those random pieces actually forming a cohesive whole.
I just hope they don't get too much flak for feeling proud of their work. It's kind of shitty, but I'm sure some people will (and have) label them as 'arrogant' because they are proud of their hard work.
But there is no hype for GW2. Didn't you get the memo?
Please see EA for the best example of hype. They've engaged in some Torrific amounts of hype.
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
really? you don't think press beta's are used to drive hype?
I've got the straight edge.
I cant wait to play gw2 this weekend :P
but WoW will always be there .. its an easy game.. and with pandas coming lil kids are gunna go crazy.. what little kid dosnt wanna make a monk panda named sad? however i do think alot of the older players will quit WoW for GW2 just bcuz most of em played the first one and who dosnt want WvW alot of good things happening in gw2 i cant wait to try it out the hardest part for me is chosin a class.. Ele or Necro.. :P
GW2 IS an MMO.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
"The Most Successfull MMO" with their revnue model will mean either an abusive cash shop, or constant payed content updates, sorry but if you exclude china WoW has about 4-5M players which pay 15-13US a month(or more in EUUK heck even APAC areas), they had so fare 3 expansions which every one of them became one biggest selling titles of that year, they've been out of 7 years and had on many occasions over 1B dollars a year in revenue.
I dont think that GW2/Anet can do any thing to be considered the most successfull MMO to date, no matter how good they'll do. I dont think in terms of pure economic, cultural, and industry change any game atleast in the forseeable future could ever beat WoW.
O M G. People on this site will stir up shit using anything available. That was a perfectly lovely short article in FORBES. For where it was written for, it was light as air and tasted like candy. It's amazing that people can make such a huge issue of things that are so small. What company DOESN'T want to beat Blizzard? Anet is just doing something a little different and not trying to beat Blizzard by totally cloning WoW. Blizzard does WoW best. There is no reason to play a different WoW when it's already there to play.....
WILL Anet "beat" Blizzard? Seriously does anyone other than Anet care? I hope for their sake they do, but it's not going to dictate what game I play or change my spending habits or anything else. I'm going to play GW2 now because I gave Blizzard 6 years of my life. I'm ready for a change. I will probably even buy a few things in the item shop. (Oooooo.....I'm baaaad.) But this article doesn't move me in any way. I'm still wondering why the big deal is being made of it.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
When the reference to "win it" was made .....I like many others feel that having more purchasers of the game than any other would be the measure(since GW2 does not have an ongoing subscription fee).
Where will these buyers come from ?
- existing mmog player base
-previous mmpog players who are not currently playing a game
- new players to mmog games
------------
My point GW2 success does not just have to come ONLY out of the hide of the existing gamer market ..and not just out of WOW.In fact there may well be a signifigant number of players who keep their WOW subscription AND purchase GW2.They may end up playing both ,one more than the other,or focus on just one
.Also note..Guild Wars 2 is at the BEGINNING of it's life cycle.....WOW and other current games in the market.....are not.
i see no problem in what i wrote. yes, people seemed offended. angry. raging. purple-faced. mouse-totin'. keyboard-clickin'. and i didn't assume the angries were fans of gw2. they seemed the opposite. they seemed fans of wow. you're confusing me. did you read what i wrote?
you didn't, did you?
my point (and it's a very good point), is there's no need to be upset at the guy's comment that he wants to overtake wow. of course he does. every mmo dev wants that. they dream it. breathe it. in the heart of hearts, it's what they want. to get on top of wow and pump it hard while screaming, "who yer daddy now, huh? huh? HUH?"
that's what they want.
and so they should. it might explain why gw2 looks so good. with that kind of aggressive attitude, it's no wonder they're running about the ring with rolls of nickels in their gloves.
i don't think it only works to forbes. i think it's what's driven them from day one. they're patient about it, but you can see they're trying for something monumentally epic. and you only try this hard if you want to take the throne.
i hope they do it.
i really do.
because it means this game will, at last, be half as good as all the promises every mmo has made in the past 5 years (or more). it might be blissfully worth the price of the box and anything else they want to talk me into buying.
maybe even a tshirt.
in the meantime, here's a chant just for you: "i don't think it's great! i don't think it's bad! i just don't know what to think because i don't want to have an opinion on anything, even this chant i'm chanting, so please don't be offended and think i'm having an opinion when i'm not. am i right?"
*helpful* it's not the kind of chant you need to say out loud, so no one will know.
Interesting to see how the fan's react to this statement. It's been said again and again how "Anet doesn't give a damn about money" all over these forums, yet now it comes out the Anet wants to be the big guy. Does that change anyone's outlook of the game and/or company?
Mike O'Brien said just the opposite of that in a recent interview linked in another thread. So no, they are not thinking they will be the "WoW Killer." Only Blizzard can kill WoW.
I was referring to this.
Mike O'brien:
"We were number two to World of Warcraft with Guild Wars, now we want to beat them. Well be satisfied when Guild Wars 2 is the most successful MMO"
And how do they consider a non-sub-based game as being number two to the number one Sub based game?
That's stupid... How can GW be second to World of Warcraft when it's not a MMO? This is my point on why I don't trust Anet's marketing. Because they claimed that GW1 wasn't advertised as a MMORPG, but here they are doing it again and advertising it as a MMO by comparing it to MMO. VERY MISLEADING!!!GW2 IS an MMO.
Learn to read!Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Another point to make: since GW1 is universally considered NOT to be an MMO, wouldn't GW2 be their FIRST entry into the MMO world? Isn't there some unspoken rule of caution about over-hyping first MMOs made by companies?
I am not happy with the announcement, only because every developer that claimed they were going to ddethrone WoW has crashed and burned. Not that I don't think GW2 could be a good game, but saying you're a WoW-killer is like the kiss of death in the industry.
I don't think they're actually saying they are going to de-throne wow. What I think they're saying or trying to communicate to the playerbase out there is that Anet's GW2 dev team is "in it to win it"; they are determined to work hard and do the very best they can do make GW2 as good as it can possibly be. By saying that they want to beat wow, is more of a statement of their ambtion and their goal to be the best mmo they possibly can than a claim of success prior to release. Just how I'm understanding it.
I think the problem was/is GW1 at the time did not fit into the MMO market nor the co-op market either. A co-op with MMO elements was how it was often described but also b2p. It was so much more then a co-op the community was and is something else. The live events and the guild sponsored events are something I will always remember personally as some of the best ever in any game. Not sure if there had ever been b2p's MMO'ish games on the market then either.
the poster formerly known as melangel :P
i'm happy for a gaming company to want to be the big guy. happy for them to want to make money. it means they'll be around longer than the guys working out of their basement for lols.
What if they had 5+ mill people playing in NA/EU/Oceanic and the asked everyone to pay = $5 a month for some credit in the shop and such?Wouldn't that pretty much put them at the top in the west?
Would you be willing to put out that $5 a month for this?
On the other hand maybe they're just going after box/digital sales of the game.
Interesting.
Originally posted by Just1opinion
Great. Now you've made me paranoid. I certainly hope that GW2 doesn't get the traditional "dumbing down" treatment to make it more appealing to even MORE casual players. I think I would puke from being so emotionally upset by that. I watched that happen to my EQ2 over the years as it became more and more WoW-ized. It was so terribly sad. EQ2 is not at all the game it once was, but it did attract some WoW players finally, and....unfortunately.
I sincerely hope that ArenaNet is able to fulfill their dreams without compromising their vision.
============================================================================
Figured I'd respond here since that thread was locked.
I have the same hope, and I know exactly what you mean by the SOE WOW treatment. SWG is all I have to say about that. A-net has shown over the last few years they have a core vision different than just about all MMO dev houses, lets hope they stick to that and have confidence that vision alone can acheive such a goal.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Can't wait for the NDA to lift and people can come back to reality.
Part of the reason so many MMORPGs have failed to retain a large subscriber base is because the developers have no desire to actually "beat" WoW. They're content with releasing a game that will hopefully appeal to a few hundred thousand WoW castoffs while continuing to milk off subscription fees with minimal content updates. I somehow doubt that when Blizzard designed World of Warcraft that they designed it with intentions of just being a game people played if they didn't like EQ.
WoW pretty much replaced EQ because it did everything EQ did 100x better. The developers completely redefined the genre rather than being content with releasing a slightly updated version of what had come before it.
Can't wait untill the NDA has lifted and I can go to other game forms and say "You pay $15 a month for that piece of crap ?"
As discussed earlier on in this thread, "beating WoW" does not necessarily mean being a "WoW Killer". There is a HUGE difference. I am surprised you don't see it.
Like mentioned before, beating WoW can simply mean generating more sales and gaining greater popularity for GW2 in the months and years ahead than WoW. It is definately a possibility.
What won't happen is WoW dying completely because of GW2. WoW can survive and can still be called a success even if it loses 5m subs over the next years as it just means WoW still has 5m people subscribed per month which is still a staggering amount of subs lol.
Looking forward to EQL and EQN.