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You lost me at Hero Engine
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So, you interpret "comfortable" as "plain and boring." I don't. I think if you take the quote in context they are simply saying that many of the controls are where you would expect them. Kinda like having a steering wheel and a brake pedal. Let's continue the car analogy: When I buy a new A8 (TESO) I still want it to have similar controls as my neighbor's VW Jetta (WoW.)
They've already confirmed that they combat and abilities work quite differently than WOW, and most other MMOs. Let's see the gameplay vids at E3 next week, then we can talk more specifically.
Except Zenimax isnt making an Audi A8:TESO even though thats what alot of people were hoping. They are making a Ford Focus:TESO and every one at the autoshow went.."Aww Man!...Lame!"
Its not the car itself. Its the Model and Style they are attaching to the Make
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Well, you've clearly reached a different conclusion than I have, based on the facts. Let's take this conversation up again after E3. I'll concede that there's a chance you are right, but I don't think so.
Seriously, everyone in this thread get a fucking clue, you come in here defending an engine with no successes in the mmo realm, attached to one of the biggest RPG IP's in exsistance. Then turn around and because they arent using the engine they originally stated they were using act like its not an issue anymore.
It doesnt change the fact that this game has graphics (Sorry they look like TOR so even if they arent using hero engine it defiently had an influence) look nothing like any other elder scrolls game and are not in the vein of the series at all.
What people fail to realize is that as a consumer you dont buy a product with a contract on it, that you can sign and get your money back if it sucks. Your buying it under the assumption that you trust the IP or the brand name your buying from. Why do people purchase coke products over generic brands that have the basic same flavor? Because of aname they trust, they undersrand there is consistency in a brand name.
What ESO is doing is undermining the idea of consistency for a quick money grab. And im sorry even if they arent using the full hero engine it defiently has affected the outcome of this game, they still "Lost me at hero engine" as they stated originally, even if they only took a basis from it, its a terrible start and will only lead to the inevitable terrible finish this game will have.
So all in all (And then im saying peace out), they started using the hero engine (Which again has no proof of it being a good engine ANYWHERE, literally ANYWHERE that you can look for it) and people came in defending it because they wanted this game to be good so they could fill some strange void or just because they wanted to look different or progressive. Your following the majority if your following TOR, no matter what ill never play this game, ever. And it sucks because like all the other hardcore ES fans, we didnt want something different, we DESERVED something different, because we bought into the IP and its consistency of being an open ended (Not even saying sandbox so people can misconstrew anything) believable universe that lets the player decide his own story. And those saying that couldnt have translated into a modern MMO, again get your head out of your own ass, it wont translate in modern times because this another typical dev making another typical game for the majortiy to make money.
SWG was an open ended game where you the player made the adventure, and yes ESO SHOULD have been similar to SWG rather than similar to DAOC or TOR because then it would have help up consistently with the IP we all have grown to love and respect. Im sorry if your the person who only liked Elder Scrolls for the Background and the races, theres more to the series than that, and us fans that brought it to where it is today deserve better.
Try and beat that shit!
They are not making a TES single player series game, they are making TESO read what the devs are making and if you don't like it don't buy it. What game play videos or any proof for that matter are you looking at that the game looks like TOR?
Beat you.
It seems like you have an axe to grind, bud. Have you watched any interviews? I have no idea what you're really on about. Your mad that people assumed they were using Hero Engine and now they aren't? Huh?
I think you are the person who needs a clue. Game engine =/= gameplay. Its a tool, its how people use it that matters. There are brilliant games out there with quite mediocre graphics, and the bottom line is that the Hero engine is capable of quite a lot more than was delivered in SWTOR.
They deliberately kept the graphics low to minimise performance hits on lower end computers, because everyone rages if they cant put their graphics up to the maximum settings in a MMO. Even if the game could run flawlessly on a balanced setting they refuse to because they feel that the game should run flawlessly at maximum settings on their outdated systems. Judging by the pictures I have seen from ESO they are probably doing the same thing. I mean why wouldnt you? It was the strategy of the most successful MMO ever and it worked. There were better MMOs out there that fell to the wayside because they had high performance requirements.
Then you come back to raging about what ESO should be like, which once again you are missing the point, has nothing to do with the graphics engine. I cant even count the number of terrible games that used the Unreal engine, most of them not even coming close the the graphics quality of the game that it was created for.
People here arent saying that the game is going to be amazingly brilliant, they are saying you should base your judgement on something less misguided than the graphics engine. Perhaps actually wait until some decent information is released? If you dont like the graphics, fine. But its not the engine, its the artists / programmers fault. Guild Wars 2 is using a pretty outdated engine (a modified GW1 engine), and does not have the sheer performance of games like TERA, but the world they have crafted is amazing with the limited resources that they have.
Its a poor tool to use! Seriously, show me a game that has used the engine effectively? You keep saying SWTOR didnt use it to its full potential and that could be true, but where are all the other games being released on it if its so damn good???
Its says on the Hero Engine page they have had MMO's developed in 15 months on the hero engine because its so user friendly....so where are the games??? O yeah, either in a permanently haulted development or TOR or Cancelled after launch, did anyone even read the other posts that showed the bunch of games that failed on this engine?
So when they originally announced they were using the hero engine for ESO (and no it wasnt speculation, Gameinformer the company that released the first information/screens of the game even said they were using the hero engine and then later retracted it) it made me extremely skeptical and lost my initial confidence for the game right off the bat because guess what?
ITS THE FUCKIN ELDER SCROLLS! Its basically the holy grail of nerd RPG's and then they say they are using the same engine as lets see again who do we have... TOR (A complte failure) and heroes journey (the game the engine was made for that still hasnt seen the light of day aside from a video of a fat guy running through the jungle).
ESO will bomb, with or without the hero engine. Because its uninspired and unoriginal, even if its not using the hero engine, its using fations, voice acting, 100% solo story, no player housing...Which really doesnt make any sense seeing as how TOR had player housing in the form of ships and its been a consistent staple of the Elder Scrolls games!
Ill leave you with this since you love the damn hero engine so much.
(Again the game made specifically for the engine)
Not released yet, but The Repopulation is looking damn good.
After seeing what Bioware did, I didnt have much faith in HE at all. Then Ive been watching what A&B is doing with it.
Night and Day!
I think its really more the skill, inginuity and dedication of the Developers over what game engine is used.
I mean, a good musician will still be just as good on a cheap instrument, but a unskilled player will suck even on the best instrument in the world.
Bioware took an alpha build of HE, and didnt care about any updates or support. "We are Bioware. We know what we are doing dont you worry." Slapped a standard Themepark model on a bunch of expensive VO work and called it SWTOR.
A&B is using the latest updated version with full support and HE Dev input. It shows.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
I agree. Most of what Pyrate has had to say on these boards I have agreed with but disagree here. The Hero engine has a ton of potential and unless you're some sort of engine expert that can truly review these things after testing them to their full potential....then sorry don't think you can accurately criticize them. Now that being said, I can't sit here either and say it's the end all be all of engines but I can say that based upon what I've seen it's a decent engine...and granted there have been some that tried to use the engine like someone trying to drive a ferrari spyder as their first car out on the autobahn or ride a hayabusa as their first bike. But that doesn't mean you diss the car or the bike...diss the person or people trying to use it inadequately.
Is it? Then I assume you would not mind to share specifics about what is so wrong with the engine, wouldn't you?
[mod edit]
"The hero engine is a good engine because I have faith in it."
Thats all your saying dude, the hero engine has never once proved itself to be a good engine, even everyone defending the damn engine says how bad SWTOR was, but wait! The devs dumbed down the game so thats not a good example. So if the only proof you have of it being a good engine is TOR thats cool man, but dont try and tell me I cant doubt the engine is any good when the only game actually made on it was a half-assed single player story driven mmo that flopped huge.
I would also like to comment that Bioware had a 100+mill budget AND the hero engine, so if thats the only good that a AAA company like bioware could do with the engine im sure indie devs are going to have a harder time. Look at the content of SWTOR, theres barely anything content wise past voice-overs, theres no 100's or thousands of hours of gameplay in it. And even the systems they made were half-assed. So again, we have one half-assed game and thats all on the pro-hero engine side.
Of course they are going to say their engines the shit, they want to make money, just like the ESO devs, just like the TOR devs. How about developers just start being original thats all Im asking. Actually im asking for them to grow a pair and try to think outside the box, and the hero engine is just another step inside the box. The only game that looks out of the norm or going against the grain is The Repopulation, but until the day that game comes out and is actually worth playing im not buying into the hero engine. I think ive explained my position very well, and I really dont even care about the hero engine, its just wierd how die hard people are to defend an engine with so few positive reviews.
Lets make this clear, the engine does not make the game, the developers do. An engine may have limitations or drawbacks (they all do) but part of what makes a good developer a good developer is its ability to create a fun, awesome game within those limitations. Any fail that may be part of SWtOR is not a result of the engine, its a result of the developers. Hero Engine is very capable, very flexible and very robust. I have no idea why everyone is correlating SWtORs failures with the Hero Engine...
So far the developers are trying to make yet ANOTHER story-driven MMO that is, in their own words, akin to SWTOR.
I have no interest whatsoever until we get hands on with TESO in the form of a BETA or a sneak-peak weekend event.
I'm also not alone in this sentiment
.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
You're actually making a mistake. I woudn't write the Hero engine off just yet. If you do the research, you will find out that Bioware purchased the Hero engine before the Hero engine developers even wanted to sell it. The engine was still in an Alpha stage at that point. The makers of the hero engine insisted that the engine wasn't finished and bioware basically said "ya ya, we've got a bunch of engineers who are going to make heavy changes anyways, so its ok".
It got so bad that the guys who made the hero engine actually issued a press statement detailing this so that they didnt get associated with SWTOR's shittiness. I'll hafta go find the actual article, but, it may not be as bad as you think.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Actually i just found this:
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/25/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-isn-39-t-using-heroengine.aspx?PageIndex=4
You licensed HeroEngine a long time ago. What role did the Hero Engine play in the development of ESO?
We started ZeniMax Online from scratch, with no employees and no technology. We had to build everything ourselves. It takes a long time to write game engines, especially MMO engines, which are inherently more complicated than typical single-player ones. So, we decided to license the HeroEngine to give us a headstart. It was a useful tool for us to use to prototype areas and game design concepts, and it provided us the ability to get art into the game that was visible, so we could work on the game’s art style. Our plan is for ESO to be a world class MMO, with the most advanced social features found in any MMO to date – so while we were prototyping the game on HeroEngine, we were simultaneously developing our own client, server, and messaging layer that were specifically designed with ESO in mind. Think of HeroEngine as a whiteboard for us – a great tool to get some ideas in the game and start looking at them while the production engine was in development.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Ya... ya... ya....
Every thread criticizing the HERO engine, then populates with some "in the know" developer/engineer-types that tell us how our opinion is just wrong.
OK. Fine.. maybe it is... maybe HERO engine is wonderful. But until most of us gamers actually see a product using the HERO engins that doesn't suck... we're not going to believe you. And you know that... and no amount of "well you just don't understand..." is going to matter.
Save your breath.
Sounds good to me. They are "building" on the engine, as they said above. It was that or construct from scratch, which we all should know is ridiculously time consuming and costly.
The hero engine is capable of displaying everything needed to make a realistic high res environment. The backend is irrelevant as far as capabilities and communications go because that is all custom coded with whatever protocols/methods the programmers choose.
The problem lies with the type of developer that would choose a pre made engine to save money.
Realistic textures/bump maps/lighting/physics/weather/environment/sounds take an incredible amount of time and money to get right. A company looking to save $$$ on an engine such as Hero likely doesn't have the interest in a realistic environment, or dosen't have the funding to produce it.
Bethesda has a tremendous amount of work invested in the TES games and much of the modeling/textures from TESIV/TESV can be used by the hero engine. So the use of HE might be a benefit graphically if Bethesda lets Zenimax use the resources already developed for TES.
HE can make a seamless environment using multiple servers. the engine isn't responsible for the small spaces in TOR, nor is it responsible for the clowny star wars GFX. Bioware could have used much better textures and bump mapping. Blame Bioware for the playstation era gfx.
Lag is caused by a badly designed network backend. Again blame Bioware for underestimating the traffic or necessary processing requirements. There clearly wasn't enough network virtualization work done to make sure there are no bottlenecks.
It all boils down to weather or not Zenimax continued updating the Hero engine after development started.
I can't be bothered to go through 20 posts so if this is mentioned fair enough but the game i'm backing on Kickstarter uses Hero and it's not a theme park it's possibly the biggest sandbox in terms of features attempted yet, so if u want to see what Hero can do with talented devs and support from Idea Fabrik then check out The Repopulation official forums or join in the kickstarter thread on these forums.
Just noticed your post why not check out the The Repopulation forums,i think u will get a pleasant suprise as we have the best game developed in conjunction with Hero devs and the kickstarter is doing very well as well.
They're actually not using the Hero engine at all, they simply licensed in the beginning so they could start setting up zones, areas, art assets, etc, and transfer those to their own engine once they're done:
What were your project’s needs that drove your decisions as to which pieces of tech to use?
When you’re creating something this big and complex, writing your own engine makes debugging and new feature creation far easier. Also, our plan is to have ESO run on just about any PC or Mac – laptops included – that have been bought in the last five years. Of course the better your computer’s graphics capability, the better the game looks, but we want to be sure that just about anyone can play the game and have a great time exploring Tamriel. Because of this, we needed to write our engine to be versatile enough to add or cut back on graphical features based on the user’s hardware. To do this, we had to write our own renderer with our own shaders.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
So many empty words just to say: "I am not familiar with game engines, programming or software development in any way, shape or form and cannot provide Hero engine specifics you asked"...
One more time, as it seems some people still don't get it:
They are NOT using the Hero Engine.
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/25/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-isn-39-t-using-heroengine.aspx