Who cares? The game is doing something no studio has had the balls to do and it's turning out to be a fun ride. I don't need it to wash my clothes or teach me algebra.
taking all the features from warhammer-rift is revolutionary ?
didnt know that...well i guess its the gw2 fangirls way
That's not even what I said. If you're going to be incendiary towards me, at least argue with a point I actually posted. Oh too late, welcome to Block Land, home of the trolls.
Who cares? The game is doing something no studio has had the balls to do and it's turning out to be a fun ride. I don't need it to wash my clothes or teach me algebra.
taking all the features from warhammer-rift is revolutionary ?
didnt know that...well i guess its the gw2 fangirls way
Are you butt-hurt that one company was smart enough to do it and do it well?
even if it was an 100% copy of the game that cannot be named (wow)...as long as its fun to play and the gameplay feels fresh and exciting..i couldnt care even a tiny tiny bit
I have a lot of problems with overbranding and overlabelling things. After all, different things represent different things for each one of us. Hoverwer, it seems clear that Anet was very intentionally challenging some MMO tenets with some of the design decisions used in GW2.
I think they have a different vision on how to make and run a MMO. And, i must say I think their decisions are very, very sound. Now, let's see just how many people agree with them.
IMO GW2 is just over-reted and over-hyped. I bought pre-order, played beta and I didn't like it. It doesn't matter if it is revolutionary or not. At the end of the day is about whether ppl will play it or not. I know I don't like it and I regret spending 60 dollars or so on GW2.
What and how you wrote give signs that you are a lier.
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
Short Answer, NO
Long Answer? I don't think GW2 is as "revoluntionary" as most would like to think it is. I played GW1 day 1 of release for about 3months and then quit because I "completed the game" pretty much. Rolled about 3 more toons, finished them out completely, got everything I wanted nodded my head and quit. A good story, but low retention rate for GW1.
GW2? I've seen MANY elements of GW2 in many other games, and they brought it together in a way these previous games couldn't. Does that mean GW2 is "Revolutionary"? Absolutely not.
-Similarly, does that make GW2 a "Bad Game"? Aboslutely not, but it doesn't make it the next "WoW Killer".
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I have a lot of problems with overbranding and overlabelling things. After all, different things represent different things for each one of us. Hoverwer, it seems clear that Anet was very intentionally challenging some MMO tenets with some of the design decisions used in GW2.
I think they have a different vision on how to make and run a MMO. And, i must say I think their decisions are very, very sound. Now, let's see just how many people agree with them.
It seems like someone's working very hard to set up a "but they LIED" anti-marketing attack. Not quite sure why, but once the question about paradigms gets answered, we'll proceed on to the follow-up troll.
The key is the setup pedantic quibbling over terminology, pretty easy to find pedants hanging out on mmorpg.com.
Working way too hard for it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Like all things, only if the game succeeds will it really be as evolutionary, revolutionary and paradigm shifting as the Anet team wanted it to be.
The debate here shouldn't be about whether the game itself is/or isn't innovative, what will define it is the success it will/or not have at launch and afterwards, posts here have brought up that the game uses things from other games so it's not new---I disagree, for example both rift and warhammer online brought on their own version of "dynamic events" which I think both failed miserably because what both games brought about was a incomplete and broken system that quickly loses the players interest, so it's a failed version of something that lately every game seem to claim they have.
Bottomline is, for me it is possible to brand any game as being "innovative" and so on, as long as their version of the system be it something like the dynamic events or combat system...works in the truest sense of it. Any game can come up with features and brand them names but we cant all accept it as it is if they fail right at the start---is GW2 revolutionary and become a example to other games to follow? Nobody can say yes or no until we see how far this game can reach but having played beta, I can see that it at least has the potential to be that, it's been a long time since the beta of a game hasn't disappointed and lowered my overall hype for it
GW2 is not really evolutionary... but as I played it I thought many a time "Thats how they (the other companys) should have done it.... !!!"
You kinda contradict yourself here, old man (I'm an old fart too ).
The fact that the game made you think "Thats how they (the other companys) should have done it.... !!!" makes it evolutionary. Not revolutionary, but definitely evolutionary.
The point that makes GW2 revolutionary in my opinion is that the game manages to encourage players to play TOGETHER instead of fighting each over even when they are on the same side. No more loot drama, no more node ninjaing, no more kill stealing. In PvE, it's cooperation all the way, with everyone participating being rewarded for their effort. And for competition, you have two forms of PvP to play.
The only people who will not like that are the griefers - but who cares about those?
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Evolutionary: Of or relating to or produced by a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage
Revolutionary: Markedly new or introducing fundamental change
Pardigm Shift: a change in the basic assumptions within the ruling theory of science. (i.e. flat earth shifting to spherical earth, geocentric orbit changed to heliocentric orbit) This idea has also come to be used colloquially to mean changes that once implemented, do not allow for backtracking, since the new way of doing things is so much better that no one would want to do things the old way again. Think about having a camera, phone, and music player as one device compared to carrying around a camera, a phone, and a walkman separately...you could do this, but why would you?
The MMO community seems to have issues with the use of these terms when discussing Guild Wars 2. I'm hoping that by defining the 3 terms that seem to be causing the issue, we can all come to agreement that Arenanet took evolutionary steps in the genre of MMORPG's, to introduce a revolutionary product, that should, if accepted by the MMO gaming community, create a paradigm shift.
First we have to agree on the supposition that an MMO will always be an MMO. That means the game exists within a given environment, with an overarching story, and that large numbers of people in the game play in such a way as to discover the overarching story through participation.
MMO's evolved over time and introduced some interesting, but problematic issues into the game type. When World of Warcraft hit the scene it was obvious that their game was evolutionary in it's smoothness and systems, borrowing from previous games and improving significantly upon the designs, which resulted in revolutionary gameplay. The pardigm shift Blizzard created, not obviously apparent, enshrined the toxic behaviors within the overall system that have become associated with MMO's. Reward systems (whether loot based, character based (leveling), or competitive based (PvP), have issues related to grind (the repetitive play of a particular feature to receive a particular reward), player griefing (in game play this can be considered anything anti-social and abusive), and/or 'theft' (this can be related to either fraudulent exploits of other people, stealing someones reward of time and/or effort invested (including kill stealing, Player Killing (PK'ers steal peoples time at a minimum) etc.), as well as real life hacking of accounts). Add to these problems, the overarching problem of game developers and publishers, building in any of the above within their game with the express purpose of maintaining monthly subscription fee and it should come as no surprise that the MMO playing field became more and more toxic to an increasing number of players over time.
All the GW2 development team did was ask, 'Why are people unhappy in these games?” and 'Is it possible to remove many of these issues, while providing a fun experience for all the various types of players in these types of games?' Thus GW1 was born. By using a model of highly instanced play areas and separated PvP, we, as players, saw a nice community being built around the lack of what many consider the reasons to play an MMORPG. As this experiment grew, Arenanet started looking at making a true MMORPG, with the same lack of toxic issues.
This brings us to the above questions. Yes, Arenanet did take many items from many games and include them into theirs. It's my suggestion that this is where evolution comes about. It's not necessary to reinvent a wheel, but it is better to make it out of rubber than wood.
The genius of this group of designers was a creation of a MMORPG game system WITH a planned goal of removing toxic play. Their realization, definition, and removal of what is toxic in current MMORPG's, while still creating a fun and challenging environment to play in for the vast MAJORITY of MMO players is Arenanet's revolutionary change.
Will this become the pardigm shift that everyone is waiting for? That will require a crystal ball at this moment. I don't have one of those. This is business. Business is run by profit margins. This could very well be a huge game changer in the genre of MMORPG's IF the sales of the release, subsequent expansions, and the cash shop, generate the profit levels of the monster MMO's of the past. This will create outright copying of the games design and we'll see gw2 clones everywhere. If it does 'alright', then further evolutions based on it are definitely going to occur, as companies strive for the success of past MMO's. If GW2 fails to capture a significant part of the market? It's just another footnote in the dearth of MMORPG companies that wish they had done something else. For many people, if this game does not become the 20'teens' version of WoW, the game will have failed in their eyes. I'm not amongst that crowd. However, I do think that for a game that is trying to bring originality back to a genre that has moved so far towards cookie cutter systems, I give them huge amounts of thanks (as well as $$$ for the CE!).
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
Without darkness there can be no light.
Without evil there can be no good.
In my opinion, by removing all what you refer to as "toxic" play, you remove interactions between players. Many gameplay styles, based on morality will get lost in the process of shielding the players from evil.
Instead of removing all "toxic" play, instead make it possible for the players to retaliate, through a good player justice system, where players can track down evil-doers, for instance.
I think they just took typical complaints made by players as a starting point. I mean, the past 8 years there have been made always the same complaints again and again and again:
-I do not want to do any "kill x of y"-quests anymore!
-If I accomplish heroic deeds, I want to see an effect in the world I am playing in!
-Raiding for items as THE no 1 endcontent sucks!
-I hate grinding, when do they make an MMO without grinding?
-I want to have fun with my friends, I do not want to be told, that I am useless, because my armor is too bad. I hate addons like gearscore and recount that always tell me, how bad I am. Are MMOs just about numbers?
-Mobs are stupidly standing around waiting to be killed, I want a more dynamic world, where mobs are dangerous, wander around and destroy things.
-I want failure! If we do not complete our quest, something very bad should happen!
-I want to explore a fantasy-world and enjoy adventures and not to make the same stupid quests again and again.
-PvE should encourage players to work together and not to seperate themselves from each other or even reward unsocial behaviour (kill-stealing, ninja-looting, etc.)!
-The game should be about having fun from lvl 1 and not about reaching end-game as fast as possible and then getting epics.
-This is derivated from pen and paper! Where are the traps and the riddles?
-They should find a way to include roleplaying as a game-mechanic.
-I want interesting quests, where I have to do things apart from fighting, where I can make decicions, I want branching!
-I hate it, when I come back as a high-level and there are 20 wolves around me that I can all kill with one blow.
-Combat is dull, although I have 40 abilities, I'm just standing around hitting the same 3 buttons over and over again.
-This whole tanking-healing-spanking-thing is completely outdated and annoying. I do not want to play a healer, but waiting for one is awful. Is nobody out there who can invent something new?
-PvP has to be balanced, please no honor system and no itemization!
-Why does nobody make a 3-faction-PvP with castles, siege-weapons and all the cool stuff like in DAoC?
I have read such sentences hundreds of times and I have even posted some of these hundreds of times. And there were always the same answers:
-MMOs have always been like that and will always be.
-This is impossible, this is too expensive, they cannot do such things in an MMO.
-Casual noobs like you are the reason why MMOs are so bad today, shut up!
ArenaNet just used their rational minds to make a very logical conclusion:
If there are so many players, who complain about these things. Why don't we make exactly the game they want?
How easy!
And one can already see, how other companies are beginning to react.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
I think they just took typical complaints made by players as a starting point. I mean, the past 8 years there have been made always the same complaints again and again and again:
-I do not want to do any "kill x of y"-quests anymore!
-If I accomplish heroic deeds, I want to see an effect in the world I am playing in!
-Raiding for items as THE no 1 endcontent sucks!
-I hate grinding, when do they make an MMO without grinding?
-I want to have fun with my friends, I do not want to be told, that I am useless, because my armor is too bad. I hate addons like gearscore and recount that always tell me, how bad I am. Are MMOs just about numbers?
-Mobs are stupidly standing around waiting to be killed, I want a more dynamic world, where mobs are dangerous, wander around and destroy things.
-I want failure! If we do not complete our quest, something very bad should happen!
-I want to explore a fantasy-world and enjoy adventures and not to make the same stupid quests again and again.
-PvE should encourage players to work together and not to seperate themselves from each other or even reward unsocial behaviour (kill-stealing, ninja-looting, etc.)!
-The game should be about having fun from lvl 1 and not about reaching end-game as fast as possible and then getting epics.
-This is derivated from pen and paper! Where are the traps and the riddles?
-They should find a way to include roleplaying as a game-mechanic.
-I want interesting quests, where I have to do things apart from fighting, where I can make decicions, I want branching!
-I hate it, when I come back as a high-level and there are 20 wolves around me that I can all kill with one blow.
-Combat is dull, although I have 40 abilities, I'm just standing around hitting the same 3 buttons over and over again.
-This whole tanking-healing-spanking-thing is completely outdated and annoying. I do not want to play a healer, but waiting for one is awful. Is nobody out there who can invent something new?
-PvP has to be balanced, please no honor system and no itemization!
-Why does nobody make a 3-faction-PvP with castles, siege-weapons and all the cool stuff like in DAoC?
I have read such sentences hundreds of times and I have even posted some of these hundreds of times. And there were always the same answers:
-MMOs have always been like that and will always be.
-This is impossible, this is too expensive, they cannot do such things in an MMO.
-Casual noobs like you are the reason why MMOs are so bad today, shut up!
ArenaNet just used their rational minds to make a very logical conclusion:
If there are so many players, who complain about these things. Why don't we make exactly the game they want?
How easy!
And one can already see, how other companies are beginning to react.
Well said-this is why I'm looking forward to GW2 as many of the issues you have stated, I think GW2 addresses and has come up with a great game!
In my opinion, by removing all what you refer to as "toxic" play, you remove interactions between players. Many gameplay styles, based on morality will get lost in the process of shielding the players from evil.
Instead of removing all "toxic" play, instead make it possible for the players to retaliate, through a good player justice system, where players can track down evil-doers, for instance.
What can seem simple on paper is very complicated, if not impossible to do in a game. I have yet to see an even remotely good player justice system. In order to be able to retaliable, the game needs to be made full PvP, which introduces a whole new bunch of exploits, abuses and griefing possibilities, and this is not what GW2 is about. There are games which offer this on the market for those who enjoy that kind of stuff.
There are also many forms of griefing which can't be detected by a game engine. Resource ninjaing, kill stealing or even loot ninjaing are examples of that.
The best way for games which don't want to be FFA PvP, and therefore can't provide the appropriate retaliation tools, is to simply suppress those sources of grief, something GW2 did. And as I said, the only ones who won't like that are the griefers themself, but personally, I couldn't care less if those nuisances don't play this game, it will only make for a better community.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
What is the paradigm shift we are all waiting for?
I thought it was the move away from quest based leveling and gear progression. Has GW2 succeeded in this?
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
That is not a revolutionary idea. This is a collection of buzzwords that every MMO has used since MMOs have been invented.
I think they just took typical complaints made by players as a starting point. I mean, the past 8 years there have been made always the same complaints again and again and again:
-I do not want to do any "kill x of y"-quests anymore!
-If I accomplish heroic deeds, I want to see an effect in the world I am playing in!
-Raiding for items as THE no 1 endcontent sucks!
-I hate grinding, when do they make an MMO without grinding?
-I want to have fun with my friends, I do not want to be told, that I am useless, because my armor is too bad. I hate addons like gearscore and recount that always tell me, how bad I am. Are MMOs just about numbers?
-Mobs are stupidly standing around waiting to be killed, I want a more dynamic world, where mobs are dangerous, wander around and destroy things.
-I want failure! If we do not complete our quest, something very bad should happen!
-I want to explore a fantasy-world and enjoy adventures and not to make the same stupid quests again and again.
-PvE should encourage players to work together and not to seperate themselves from each other or even reward unsocial behaviour (kill-stealing, ninja-looting, etc.)!
-The game should be about having fun from lvl 1 and not about reaching end-game as fast as possible and then getting epics.
-This is derivated from pen and paper! Where are the traps and the riddles?
-They should find a way to include roleplaying as a game-mechanic.
-I want interesting quests, where I have to do things apart from fighting, where I can make decicions, I want branching!
-I hate it, when I come back as a high-level and there are 20 wolves around me that I can all kill with one blow.
-Combat is dull, although I have 40 abilities, I'm just standing around hitting the same 3 buttons over and over again.
-This whole tanking-healing-spanking-thing is completely outdated and annoying. I do not want to play a healer, but waiting for one is awful. Is nobody out there who can invent something new?
-PvP has to be balanced, please no honor system and no itemization!
-Why does nobody make a 3-faction-PvP with castles, siege-weapons and all the cool stuff like in DAoC?
I have read such sentences hundreds of times and I have even posted some of these hundreds of times. And there were always the same answers:
-MMOs have always been like that and will always be.
-This is impossible, this is too expensive, they cannot do such things in an MMO.
-Casual noobs like you are the reason why MMOs are so bad today, shut up!
ArenaNet just used their rational minds to make a very logical conclusion:
If there are so many players, who complain about these things. Why don't we make exactly the game they want?
How easy!
And one can already see, how other companies are beginning to react.
Pretty much why MMOs then where not for me and some now.
So far after beta testing TSW,Tera, and GW2 I already know GW 2 will be my main, I'll wait on TSW, and cancelled Tera because the list you have matches with Tera except for combat and DAOC part but that hasn't came out yet, I might pick up depending on future changes.
Also all 3 games I listed, are good games, but I only buy things and try to ask myself(this mainly applies to MMOs) "Will I still be happy playing this type of MMO months and maybe years from now?" So far GW 2 is a yes.
I think ANET and Funcom(To an extent) changed the way you play MMOs, I after testing out the two even more, I think ANET nailed it as far as direction, no one is perfect, but I'm sure those that have beta tested and tried out many recent MMOs as well as very old ones, [can] agree, depending on who they are(some disagree just to disagree).
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Pretty much why MMOs then where not for me and some now.
So far after beta testing TSW,Tera, and GW2 I already know GW 2 will be my main, I'll wait on TSW, and cancelled Tera because the list you have matches with Tera except for combat and DAOC part but that hasn't came out yet, I might pick up depending on future changes.
Also all 3 games I listed, are good games, but I only buy things and try to ask myself(this mainly applies to MMOs) "Will I still be happy playing this type of MMO months and maybe years from now?" So far GW 2 is a yes.
I think ANET and Funcom(To an extent) changed the way you play MMOs, I after testing out the two even more, I think ANET nailed it as far as direction, no one is perfect, but I'm sure those that have beta tested and tried out many recent MMOs as well as very old ones, [can] agree, depending on who they are(some disagree just to disagree).
Agreed. GW2 is not perfect, but as for direction and overal gameplay experience, GW2 has nailed it. More than anything, what I'm hoping is that other dev companies learn from GW2 and that soon enough we can see more and more games similar to GW2.
OP, I basically agree with your post, but I think it's a bit vague. You basically say that GW2 is revolutionary because it seeks to resolve "toxic gameplay." Now, GW2 fans like myself are going to read this an immediately connect the dots as to what toxic gameplay actually is because they have followed the game and understand what it is trying to do.
But people who haven't followed the game much, aren't convinced, or are simply dead-set against it will simply see your post as "another crazed fanboi rant." So that said, I want to tell you all why GW2 is revolutionary for me and hopefully give you a better idea of why so many of us are excited.
Ever since WoW came out, playing any MMORPG has consisted of several annoying "constants" that no one seemed to care to fix:
1. Having to have an NPC tell you where to go. Because if you explore the world and kill 10 gnolls within being told to do so...you will not be rewarded and you will just have to do it again. I can't tell you how much I hate this. It absolutely KILLS exploration.
2. Dreading the appearance of another player. Because all another player means is less quest objectives for me. I seriously hated the fact that I was playing an MMORPG and yet desperately wanted to be alone almost the entire time I was questing.
3. Having to jog back and forth between quest hubs. Seriously, this is terrible. It may not seem like a big deal to have to walk back to a quest hub to turn in...but when you consider that you need to do it over and over and over again...it becomes seriously annoying. It's literally just a waste of time.
4. The world revolves around me. There may be other players in the game, but they don't really matter when it comes to my experience. If Billy Bob needs a boulder moved...it ain't moving until I do it. It doesn't matter if 100 players have already moved that boulder. Billy Bob won't acknowledge that it has been moved until I personally move it.
5. PvP imbalanced by design. Nearly every battle I fight in battlegrounds is highly imbalanced. Either I am higher level/geared and I have a huge advantage, or the other guy is. This turns battlegrounds into just another way to get exp that you can't really take seriously.
---------
GW2 quite literally resolves ALL of those issues. Playing it has completely spoiled me for other MMORPGs.
For example, I recently played TERA for a few days and I enjoyed the combat, but the freaking quest-hub system just killed it for me. After GW2, I literally can't go back to that crap. It's just so terrible to me.
And that is why GW2 is revolutionary and paradigm shifting for me. It has literally made it so I can't go back to other MMORPGs...and I don't know how much more "revolutionary" you can get than that.
GW2 quite literally resolves ALL of those issues. Playing it has completely spoiled me for other MMORPGs.
For example, I recently played TERA for a few days and I enjoyed the combat, but the freaking quest-hub system just killed it for me. After GW2, I literally can't go back to that crap. It's just so terrible to me.
And that is why GW2 is revolutionary and paradigm shifting for me. It has literally made it so I can't go back to other MMORPGs...and I don't know how much more "revolutionary" you can get than that.
You couldn't be more right Creslin321. The exact same thing has happened to me. After playing the first BWE my wife and I could not go back to wow or any other mmorpg. I tried TERA, and though I enjoyed the combat system (for the most part), their quest system did me under.
I can honestly say that GW2 has ruined all other mmos (in the market right now) for me.
Evolutionary: Of or relating to or produced by a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage
Revolutionary: Markedly new or introducing fundamental change
Pardigm Shift: a change in the basic assumptions within the ruling theory of science. (i.e. flat earth shifting to spherical earth, geocentric orbit changed to heliocentric orbit) This idea has also come to be used colloquially to mean changes that once implemented, do not allow for backtracking, since the new way of doing things is so much better that no one would want to do things the old way again. Think about having a camera, phone, and music player as one device compared to carrying around a camera, a phone, and a walkman separately...you could do this, but why would you?
People do. Individual functions on multipurpose devices are frequently inferior to specialized devices. My apologies for touching on this as it is not really relevant to your point, but a different analogy might serve you better.
The MMO community seems to have issues with the use of these terms when discussing Guild Wars 2. I'm hoping that by defining the 3 terms that seem to be causing the issue, we can all come to agreement that Arenanet took evolutionary steps in the genre of MMORPG's, to introduce a revolutionary product, that should, if accepted by the MMO gaming community, create a paradigm shift.
First we have to agree on the supposition that an MMO will always be an MMO. That means the game exists within a given environment, with an overarching story, and that large numbers of people in the game play in such a way as to discover the overarching story through participation.
MMO's evolved over time and introduced some interesting, but problematic issues into the game type. When World of Warcraft hit the scene it was obvious that their game was evolutionary in it's smoothness and systems, borrowing from previous games and improving significantly upon the designs, which resulted in revolutionary gameplay. The pardigm shift Blizzard created, not obviously apparent, enshrined the toxic behaviors within the overall system that have become associated with MMO's. Reward systems (whether loot based, character based (leveling), or competitive based (PvP), have issues related to grind (the repetitive play of a particular feature to receive a particular reward), player griefing (in game play this can be considered anything anti-social and abusive), and/or 'theft' (this can be related to either fraudulent exploits of other people, stealing someones reward of time and/or effort invested (including kill stealing, Player Killing (PK'ers steal peoples time at a minimum) etc.), as well as real life hacking of accounts). Add to these problems, the overarching problem of game developers and publishers, building in any of the above within their game with the express purpose of maintaining monthly subscription fee and it should come as no surprise that the MMO playing field became more and more toxic to an increasing number of players over time.
All the GW2 development team did was ask, 'Why are people unhappy in these games?” and 'Is it possible to remove many of these issues, while providing a fun experience for all the various types of players in these types of games?' Thus GW1 was born. By using a model of highly instanced play areas and separated PvP, we, as players, saw a nice community being built around the lack of what many consider the reasons to play an MMORPG. As this experiment grew, Arenanet started looking at making a true MMORPG, with the same lack of toxic issues.
This brings us to the above questions. Yes, Arenanet did take many items from many games and include them into theirs. It's my suggestion that this is where evolution comes about. It's not necessary to reinvent a wheel, but it is better to make it out of rubber than wood.
Agreed. GW2's development is incrementally evolutionary in nature.
The genius of this group of designers was a creation of a MMORPG game system WITH a planned goal of removing toxic play. Their realization, definition, and removal of what is toxic in current MMORPG's, while still creating a fun and challenging environment to play in for the vast MAJORITY of MMO players is Arenanet's revolutionary change.
I am sorry but this is pure hyperbole.
First, I would hesitate to say that having a (perhaps admirable) goal equates to genius. My goal is world peace, I have developed a new recipe for brownies to facilitate my goal. This means I am a genius ? Now, if I had, through insight beyond the scope of lesser minds, determined that the root of all war was a lack of sufficiently delicious brownies, and had developed and implemented the perfect plan for mass producing and delivering these war-destroying treats, resulting in world peace...then it might be safe to call me a genius. Until we actually see the final results of A-Nets efforts, it might be just a little presumptuous to call them genius.
Second, exactly what percentage of MMO players comprise your, "vast majority ?" Also keep in mind that what you call, "toxic," others might call, "fun."
I am afraid that I disagree with your position that this is revolutionary. Making an MMO more fun for some portion of the MMO player base by tweaking some of the common systems of the genre is admirable. I was very impressed. But that is not revolutionary.
Will this become the pardigm shift that everyone is waiting for? That will require a crystal ball at this moment. I don't have one of those. This is business. Business is run by profit margins. This could very well be a huge game changer in the genre of MMORPG's IF the sales of the release, subsequent expansions, and the cash shop, generate the profit levels of the monster MMO's of the past. This will create outright copying of the games design and we'll see gw2 clones everywhere. If it does 'alright', then further evolutions based on it are definitely going to occur, as companies strive for the success of past MMO's. If GW2 fails to capture a significant part of the market? It's just another footnote in the dearth of MMORPG companies that wish they had done something else. For many people, if this game does not become the 20'teens' version of WoW, the game will have failed in their eyes. I'm not amongst that crowd. However, I do think that for a game that is trying to bring originality back to a genre that has moved so far towards cookie cutter systems, I give them huge amounts of thanks (as well as $$$ for the CE!).
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
ANet's evolutionary idea was to provide those who are not satisfied with many current MMO's with an alternative in which some of the points of dissatisfaction are alleviated to one degree or another.
To date I have not seen any indication that GW2 is supposed to be healthier than any other MMO or that there is a real expectation that it will be more profitable than other MMOs.
Thank you for the read, but, as much as I am a huge fan of ANet and am very much looking forward to GW2, I can not agree with many of your statements.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Comments
That's not even what I said. If you're going to be incendiary towards me, at least argue with a point I actually posted. Oh too late, welcome to Block Land, home of the trolls.
Are you butt-hurt that one company was smart enough to do it and do it well?
This is not a game.
even if it was an 100% copy of the game that cannot be named (wow)...as long as its fun to play and the gameplay feels fresh and exciting..i couldnt care even a tiny tiny bit
https://ashesofcreation.com/r/Y4U3PQCASUPJ5SED
I have a lot of problems with overbranding and overlabelling things. After all, different things represent different things for each one of us. Hoverwer, it seems clear that Anet was very intentionally challenging some MMO tenets with some of the design decisions used in GW2.
I think they have a different vision on how to make and run a MMO. And, i must say I think their decisions are very, very sound. Now, let's see just how many people agree with them.
What and how you wrote give signs that you are a lier.
GW2 is going to be a great game. That being said, there is nothing overly revolutionary or innovative about any of it.
Short Answer, NO
Long Answer? I don't think GW2 is as "revoluntionary" as most would like to think it is. I played GW1 day 1 of release for about 3months and then quit because I "completed the game" pretty much. Rolled about 3 more toons, finished them out completely, got everything I wanted nodded my head and quit. A good story, but low retention rate for GW1.
GW2? I've seen MANY elements of GW2 in many other games, and they brought it together in a way these previous games couldn't. Does that mean GW2 is "Revolutionary"? Absolutely not.
-Similarly, does that make GW2 a "Bad Game"? Aboslutely not, but it doesn't make it the next "WoW Killer".
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
It seems like someone's working very hard to set up a "but they LIED" anti-marketing attack. Not quite sure why, but once the question about paradigms gets answered, we'll proceed on to the follow-up troll.
The key is the setup pedantic quibbling over terminology, pretty easy to find pedants hanging out on mmorpg.com.
Working way too hard for it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I am in the beta.
I have played a lot of mmo´s (yes I am an old fart)
GW2 is not really evolutionary... but as I played it I thought many a time "Thats how they (the other companys) should have done it.... !!!"
GW2 is the first MMO in a long long time that gripped me like Royce Gracie in his prime
It mata leoned me from start to the end of the first beta...
See you ingame
Yes.
Like all things, only if the game succeeds will it really be as evolutionary, revolutionary and paradigm shifting as the Anet team wanted it to be.
The debate here shouldn't be about whether the game itself is/or isn't innovative, what will define it is the success it will/or not have at launch and afterwards, posts here have brought up that the game uses things from other games so it's not new---I disagree, for example both rift and warhammer online brought on their own version of "dynamic events" which I think both failed miserably because what both games brought about was a incomplete and broken system that quickly loses the players interest, so it's a failed version of something that lately every game seem to claim they have.
Bottomline is, for me it is possible to brand any game as being "innovative" and so on, as long as their version of the system be it something like the dynamic events or combat system...works in the truest sense of it. Any game can come up with features and brand them names but we cant all accept it as it is if they fail right at the start---is GW2 revolutionary and become a example to other games to follow? Nobody can say yes or no until we see how far this game can reach but having played beta, I can see that it at least has the potential to be that, it's been a long time since the beta of a game hasn't disappointed and lowered my overall hype for it
I would wait till the game is released before you herald it as the next coming of christ :
You kinda contradict yourself here, old man (I'm an old fart too
).
The fact that the game made you think "Thats how they (the other companys) should have done it.... !!!" makes it evolutionary. Not revolutionary, but definitely evolutionary.
The point that makes GW2 revolutionary in my opinion is that the game manages to encourage players to play TOGETHER instead of fighting each over even when they are on the same side. No more loot drama, no more node ninjaing, no more kill stealing. In PvE, it's cooperation all the way, with everyone participating being rewarded for their effort. And for competition, you have two forms of PvP to play.
The only people who will not like that are the griefers - but who cares about those?
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Without darkness there can be no light.
Without evil there can be no good.
In my opinion, by removing all what you refer to as "toxic" play, you remove interactions between players. Many gameplay styles, based on morality will get lost in the process of shielding the players from evil.
Instead of removing all "toxic" play, instead make it possible for the players to retaliate, through a good player justice system, where players can track down evil-doers, for instance.
Very interesting thread.
I think they just took typical complaints made by players as a starting point. I mean, the past 8 years there have been made always the same complaints again and again and again:
-I do not want to do any "kill x of y"-quests anymore!
-If I accomplish heroic deeds, I want to see an effect in the world I am playing in!
-Raiding for items as THE no 1 endcontent sucks!
-I hate grinding, when do they make an MMO without grinding?
-I want to have fun with my friends, I do not want to be told, that I am useless, because my armor is too bad. I hate addons like gearscore and recount that always tell me, how bad I am. Are MMOs just about numbers?
-Mobs are stupidly standing around waiting to be killed, I want a more dynamic world, where mobs are dangerous, wander around and destroy things.
-I want failure! If we do not complete our quest, something very bad should happen!
-I want to explore a fantasy-world and enjoy adventures and not to make the same stupid quests again and again.
-PvE should encourage players to work together and not to seperate themselves from each other or even reward unsocial behaviour (kill-stealing, ninja-looting, etc.)!
-The game should be about having fun from lvl 1 and not about reaching end-game as fast as possible and then getting epics.
-This is derivated from pen and paper! Where are the traps and the riddles?
-They should find a way to include roleplaying as a game-mechanic.
-I want interesting quests, where I have to do things apart from fighting, where I can make decicions, I want branching!
-I hate it, when I come back as a high-level and there are 20 wolves around me that I can all kill with one blow.
-Combat is dull, although I have 40 abilities, I'm just standing around hitting the same 3 buttons over and over again.
-This whole tanking-healing-spanking-thing is completely outdated and annoying. I do not want to play a healer, but waiting for one is awful. Is nobody out there who can invent something new?
-PvP has to be balanced, please no honor system and no itemization!
-Why does nobody make a 3-faction-PvP with castles, siege-weapons and all the cool stuff like in DAoC?
I have read such sentences hundreds of times and I have even posted some of these hundreds of times. And there were always the same answers:
-MMOs have always been like that and will always be.
-This is impossible, this is too expensive, they cannot do such things in an MMO.
-Casual noobs like you are the reason why MMOs are so bad today, shut up!
ArenaNet just used their rational minds to make a very logical conclusion:
If there are so many players, who complain about these things. Why don't we make exactly the game they want?
How easy!
And one can already see, how other companies are beginning to react.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
Well said-this is why I'm looking forward to GW2 as many of the issues you have stated, I think GW2 addresses and has come up with a great game!
What can seem simple on paper is very complicated, if not impossible to do in a game. I have yet to see an even remotely good player justice system. In order to be able to retaliable, the game needs to be made full PvP, which introduces a whole new bunch of exploits, abuses and griefing possibilities, and this is not what GW2 is about. There are games which offer this on the market for those who enjoy that kind of stuff.
There are also many forms of griefing which can't be detected by a game engine. Resource ninjaing, kill stealing or even loot ninjaing are examples of that.
The best way for games which don't want to be FFA PvP, and therefore can't provide the appropriate retaliation tools, is to simply suppress those sources of grief, something GW2 did. And as I said, the only ones who won't like that are the griefers themself, but personally, I couldn't care less if those nuisances don't play this game, it will only make for a better community.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
What specific aspects are evolutionary?
What specfic features are revolutionary?
What is the paradigm shift we are all waiting for?
I thought it was the move away from quest based leveling and gear progression. Has GW2 succeeded in this?
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
That is not a revolutionary idea. This is a collection of buzzwords that every MMO has used since MMOs have been invented.
Pretty much why MMOs then where not for me and some now.
So far after beta testing TSW,Tera, and GW2 I already know GW 2 will be my main, I'll wait on TSW, and cancelled Tera because the list you have matches with Tera except for combat and DAOC part but that hasn't came out yet, I might pick up depending on future changes.
Also all 3 games I listed, are good games, but I only buy things and try to ask myself(this mainly applies to MMOs) "Will I still be happy playing this type of MMO months and maybe years from now?" So far GW 2 is a yes.
I think ANET and Funcom(To an extent) changed the way you play MMOs, I after testing out the two even more, I think ANET nailed it as far as direction, no one is perfect, but I'm sure those that have beta tested and tried out many recent MMOs as well as very old ones, [can] agree, depending on who they are(some disagree just to disagree).
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
It's more of an experience factor than listening to the crowd imo.
Just like tera
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Agreed. GW2 is not perfect, but as for direction and overal gameplay experience, GW2 has nailed it. More than anything, what I'm hoping is that other dev companies learn from GW2 and that soon enough we can see more and more games similar to GW2.
OP, I basically agree with your post, but I think it's a bit vague. You basically say that GW2 is revolutionary because it seeks to resolve "toxic gameplay." Now, GW2 fans like myself are going to read this an immediately connect the dots as to what toxic gameplay actually is because they have followed the game and understand what it is trying to do.
But people who haven't followed the game much, aren't convinced, or are simply dead-set against it will simply see your post as "another crazed fanboi rant." So that said, I want to tell you all why GW2 is revolutionary for me and hopefully give you a better idea of why so many of us are excited.
Ever since WoW came out, playing any MMORPG has consisted of several annoying "constants" that no one seemed to care to fix:
1. Having to have an NPC tell you where to go. Because if you explore the world and kill 10 gnolls within being told to do so...you will not be rewarded and you will just have to do it again. I can't tell you how much I hate this. It absolutely KILLS exploration.
2. Dreading the appearance of another player. Because all another player means is less quest objectives for me. I seriously hated the fact that I was playing an MMORPG and yet desperately wanted to be alone almost the entire time I was questing.
3. Having to jog back and forth between quest hubs. Seriously, this is terrible. It may not seem like a big deal to have to walk back to a quest hub to turn in...but when you consider that you need to do it over and over and over again...it becomes seriously annoying. It's literally just a waste of time.
4. The world revolves around me. There may be other players in the game, but they don't really matter when it comes to my experience. If Billy Bob needs a boulder moved...it ain't moving until I do it. It doesn't matter if 100 players have already moved that boulder. Billy Bob won't acknowledge that it has been moved until I personally move it.
5. PvP imbalanced by design. Nearly every battle I fight in battlegrounds is highly imbalanced. Either I am higher level/geared and I have a huge advantage, or the other guy is. This turns battlegrounds into just another way to get exp that you can't really take seriously.
---------
GW2 quite literally resolves ALL of those issues. Playing it has completely spoiled me for other MMORPGs.
For example, I recently played TERA for a few days and I enjoyed the combat, but the freaking quest-hub system just killed it for me. After GW2, I literally can't go back to that crap. It's just so terrible to me.
And that is why GW2 is revolutionary and paradigm shifting for me. It has literally made it so I can't go back to other MMORPGs...and I don't know how much more "revolutionary" you can get than that.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
You couldn't be more right Creslin321. The exact same thing has happened to me. After playing the first BWE my wife and I could not go back to wow or any other mmorpg. I tried TERA, and though I enjoyed the combat system (for the most part), their quest system did me under.
I can honestly say that GW2 has ruined all other mmos (in the market right now) for me.
Thank you for the read, but, as much as I am a huge fan of ANet and am very much looking forward to GW2, I can not agree with many of your statements.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.