Is it me or GW2 PAY 2 WIN game?

seridan

Because people forgot plain english.... there aren't LOTS of definitions for P2W

Let's see what "win" is:

win (third-person singular simple present wins, present participle winning, simple past and past participle won)

1. (obsolete, transitive) To conquer, defeat.  [quotations ?]
2. (transitive) To triumph or achieve victory in (a game, a war, etc).
3. (transitive) To obtain (someone) by wooing.
4. (intransitive) To achieve victory.

   Who would win in a fight between an octopus and a dolphin?

5. (transitive) To obtain something that is wanted.

   The company hopes to win an order from the government worth over 5 million dollars.

6. (transitive) To cause a victory for someone.

   The success of the economic policies should win Mr. Smith the next elections.

   The policy success should win the elections for Mr. Smith.

1. You need something to defeat,conquer

2. What is victory in GW2

3. We aren't giving roses here

The only part that someone on this thread my "confuse" as Pay 2 Win is 5 "To obtain something that is wanted", but... "wanted" by WHO?

Now let's see what "advantage" is:

Noun

advantage (plural advantages)

1. Any condition, circumstance, opportunity or means, particularly favorable to success, or to any desired end.
2. Superiority; mastery; — used with of to specify its nature or with over to specify the other party.

   The enemy had the advantage of a more elevated position.

3. Superiority of state, or that which gives it; benefit; gain; profit; as, the advantage of a good constitution.
4. (tennis) The score where one player wins a point after deuce but needs the next too to carry the game.

We don't play tennis so 4. is out. The only one that appears to P2W is 2. You can't "win" if you don't have someone to "win over"

 

1. In order to see the CS this way we must first define "success" or "desrired end". What is success in GW2 and in MMORPGs in general? If by success you mean "getting better gear than the other guy" then the CS falls into this category, however I don't see it that way. Why? Because you can do everything in the game without buying any items on the AH. It's not like D3 that you cannot progress in Inferno without buying items and spending your money, that game requires buying items on AH (RM or gold) in order to progress because otherwise you can't PROGRESS. From what we've seen that won't be possible at all in GW2, you can clearly progress without having to resort to the AH.

If by "desired end" you mean getting to 80 faster then that's also not a valid argument, anyone who played the game knows that leveling faster will only make you skip content, there is NO GRINDING so any xp booster will only lead you to skip content, that's YOUR LOSS not YOUR WIN, it's as simple as that.

 

2. My question for this is, OVER WHO do you have an advantage? From the logic of some people on this thread a DLC for a single player game is also P2W because it gives better items who those who bought it. But is it an advantage over other players? Why do you care if someone has more level or better items than you? Can you still progress? YES. Are you still having fun? YES. Is it essential to have that gear to progress? NO. Then why do you even care if someone else has an "advantage" as you say? Why care? Are you like the little children at the kindergarden who envy their friends for having the newest toy? Is it because of a useless sense of pride "why does he have THAT and I can't have it?"

 

3. I already answered above for 3. as well.

 

The only way to say for sure the CS is P2W is if someone is actually "winning" SOMETHING by using it:

1. If in sPVP you could use your bought items/consumables to dominate, yes it would've been P2W in a way. - We all know how sPVP works so there is no "win".

2. If in PVE you couldn't PROGRESS without buying items on the AH then it would also be P2W. We know that you can progress without buying staff up to the current level, I don't believe we'll see a new D3 forming at the later levels.

3. If in PVE there was a serious grind and there were convenient items to skip it (xp boosters) then it would be P2W. - We all know that there is absolutely no grind in the game so xp boosters will "allow" you to skip content, if you are enjoying it, why skip it?

4. If there was Open PVP then there would've been some sort of P2W with those kids camping outside the noob zones killing people.

5. And finally WvWvW, do you honestly believe that level/gear advantage will be so important in a massive battle? Well I don't think so, in Warhammer Online or Lineage 2 (yes a Korean grinder) there was no gear advantage during the big fights, it was all about tactics, teamwork and having the largest zerg sometimes, we already know that a small team of good players, no matter their gear/level can win against a zerg. Gear/Level were second rate and they will be second rate in GW2 WvWvW as well.

Why cry over the CS when it is only giving convenience for those who want it? It doesn't AFFECT YOU if someone is buying items, it doesn't AFFECT YOU if someone levels faster.

TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by p_c_sousa

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by p_c_sousa

i just find hilarious how a game can be P2W before reach max lvl and than after reach max lvl sudenly is no longer P2W. must be a new kind of P2W definition.  

for some guys all games must be P2W since i can pay a friend to play extra hours for me ...... 

 

I doubt that paying a friend to play extra hours for you is a sanctioned "Pay To Win" method. From my experience games tend to have strict rules against RMT outside of those allowed by the company themselves. 

if  for some guys reach fast max lvl is P2W than pay a friend to play for you so can reach max lvl fast is P2W too and that is absurd. 

let amke the silly player A vs player B comparison:

player A and player B have only 2 hours to play for day. player A have money available to pay player C to play 2 hours day with is account. player B cant spend money with player C so player A will reach max lvl soon than player B.

for some this is P2W...sorry but this is just stupid

The problematic arises from whether or not we imply "Legit P2W" when we say "P2W". I've always thought it was implied, much like we at least refer to "videogames" when we say "games". Some even always refer to "MMORP Games" when they say "games" in this forum.

 

Assuming that the "P2W" includes "illegal P2W", why would your scenario be stupid?

TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by eyelolled

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by eyelolled

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by eyelolled

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

 

PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

 

A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

 

 

I think you've done a fine job of managing to say virtually nothing at all.  Are you a politician?

 

Would you mind clarifying what you feel that "winning" even is, so we can all understand what you are perceiving?

Assume Player A and Player B participate in a competition with certain winning conditions, then whoever reaches those winning conditions first, wins.

lol, thanks. Who would have guessed.

Now lets try the same question, but this time actually give me an answer, not just another generalization. 

You didn't specify which specific competition you are refering to. In general, there are many competitions in MMORPGs. In Guid Wars  2 we have: World vs World, Structured PvP,  market competitions, PvE competitions, Vanity competitions, etc. 

 

Now depending on personal opinion, people can consider certain competitions to be more important than other ones.

 

Once the competition is selected, one can analyze whether or not paying will significantely help one towards winning.

 

Reading this thread, it is evident that many consider the long-term World vs World competition to be of outmost importance. For a such competition, in which the grand majority of the players already reached max level and can afford to maximize their character without paying Real Life money, I don't think there is anything really that one can pay real money for that would give a significant advantage towards winning that specific competition.

 

Edit:

But, it is not unthinkable that other people consider other competitions to be of importance and then we have to do a seperate analysis of those competitions. Wealth competitions are for instance severely affected by real money. 

Vanity competitions?  Wealth competitions?

I'm sorry but I just can't feel that these sorts of competitions hold any merit at all.  I'm the type of person that feels that if you're unhappy because someone has a prettier hat then you in a videogame, you should turn off the computer and leave the house.

 

 

Why do PvP competitions hold any more merit? Doesn't is just come down to personal preference? 

jondifool

Another way to look at this is to ask if you can cheat to win!!

In a lot of games , you can easyly cheat to win. It just require you to buy gold from an illigal gold seller, and then trade it for max level gear. And your advantage is going to be enormous.

Can you do anything like that in GW2. NO - because there is no gear that is hard to get that provides huge advantages. 

So instead of whinning about P2W , wich at best allows players to save a little time while playing, maybe its better to appriciate that ArenaNet have removed Cheat to Win

Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by eyelolled

Vanity competitions?  Wealth competitions?

I'm sorry but I just can't feel that these sorts of competitions hold any merit at all.  I'm the type of person that feels that if you're unhappy because someone has a prettier hat then you in a videogame, you should turn off the computer and leave the house.

 

Why do PvP competitions hold any more merit? Doesn't is just come down to personal preference? 

Wealth competitions, vanity, PvP via PvE proxy, aren't sanctioned competitions by the developer, so one shouldn't expect them to be supported.

In fact Anet has stated that their PvE is purely cooperative environment.

PvP competitions might hold no merit for certain players, but they are sactioned by the developers so players will buy the game expecting to participate in them.

Ilaya

Originally posted by Sebber

Originally posted by negativf4kk

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Gem#Real_life_money_--.3E_in_game_money

Looks like P2W?

Yes you pay Arenanet 60 dollars and then you win, to have fun.....

NO it is not P2W, you don't win anything.

+1

Me thinks it is becoming "en vouge" to say P2W as soon as a Game has a shop, no matter what it does/has to offer. Is that all the no jobbers out there which panic around when seeing a ingame/item shop? Or all of us are so blind by now that we have to attack everything even when it would sell us only cloth?

 

I cant get that QQ about the GW2 Shop anymore....

TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by eyelolled

Vanity competitions?  Wealth competitions?

I'm sorry but I just can't feel that these sorts of competitions hold any merit at all.  I'm the type of person that feels that if you're unhappy because someone has a prettier hat then you in a videogame, you should turn off the computer and leave the house.

 

Why do PvP competitions hold any more merit? Doesn't is just come down to personal preference? 

Wealth competitions, vanity, PvP via PvE proxy, aren't sanctioned competitions by the developer, so one shouldn't expect them to be supported.

In fact Anet has stated that their PvE is purely cooperative environment.

PvP competitions might hold no merit for certain players, but they are sactioned by the developers so players will buy the game expecting to participate in them.

Are all wealth competitions really not sanctioned? Then why does the trading post work like it does? The trading post enables a massive wealth-related competition for acquiring different items, specially the rare ones.

 

Assume we have two people: a poorer A and wealthier B. Assume  they both want the same item through the trading post, but due to there being a lot of people like B or wealthier, the market price is more than A can afford but B can still afford it, then B has won the competition for obtaining that item through the trading post. 

Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by eyelolled

Vanity competitions?  Wealth competitions?

I'm sorry but I just can't feel that these sorts of competitions hold any merit at all.  I'm the type of person that feels that if you're unhappy because someone has a prettier hat then you in a videogame, you should turn off the computer and leave the house.

 

Why do PvP competitions hold any more merit? Doesn't is just come down to personal preference? 

Wealth competitions, vanity, PvP via PvE proxy, aren't sanctioned competitions by the developer, so one shouldn't expect them to be supported.

In fact Anet has stated that their PvE is purely cooperative environment.

PvP competitions might hold no merit for certain players, but they are sactioned by the developers so players will buy the game expecting to participate in them.

Are all wealth competitions really not sanctioned? Then why does the trading post work like it does? The trading post enables a massive wealth-related competition for acquiring different items, specially the rare ones.

 

Assume we have two people: a poorer A and wealthier B. Assume  they both want the same item through the trading post, but due to there being a lot of people like B or wealthier, the market price is more than A can afford but B can still afford it, then B has won the competition for obtaining that item through the trading post. 

Poorer and wealthier in game, real world, both?

The system only shuffles wealth, it doesn't create it.

 

TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by eyelolled

Vanity competitions?  Wealth competitions?

I'm sorry but I just can't feel that these sorts of competitions hold any merit at all.  I'm the type of person that feels that if you're unhappy because someone has a prettier hat then you in a videogame, you should turn off the computer and leave the house.

 

Why do PvP competitions hold any more merit? Doesn't is just come down to personal preference? 

Wealth competitions, vanity, PvP via PvE proxy, aren't sanctioned competitions by the developer, so one shouldn't expect them to be supported.

In fact Anet has stated that their PvE is purely cooperative environment.

PvP competitions might hold no merit for certain players, but they are sactioned by the developers so players will buy the game expecting to participate in them.

Are all wealth competitions really not sanctioned? Then why does the trading post work like it does? The trading post enables a massive wealth-related competition for acquiring different items, specially the rare ones.

 

Assume we have two people: a poorer A and wealthier B. Assume  they both want the same item through the trading post, but due to there being a lot of people like B or wealthier, the market price is more than A can afford but B can still afford it, then B has won the competition for obtaining that item through the trading post. 

Poorer and wealthier in game, real world, both?

The system only shuffles wealth, it doesn't create it.

So you agree that it is a developer sanctioned competition? 

Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by eyelolled

Vanity competitions?  Wealth competitions?

I'm sorry but I just can't feel that these sorts of competitions hold any merit at all.  I'm the type of person that feels that if you're unhappy because someone has a prettier hat then you in a videogame, you should turn off the computer and leave the house.

 

Why do PvP competitions hold any more merit? Doesn't is just come down to personal preference? 

Wealth competitions, vanity, PvP via PvE proxy, aren't sanctioned competitions by the developer, so one shouldn't expect them to be supported.

In fact Anet has stated that their PvE is purely cooperative environment.

PvP competitions might hold no merit for certain players, but they are sactioned by the developers so players will buy the game expecting to participate in them.

Are all wealth competitions really not sanctioned? Then why does the trading post work like it does? The trading post enables a massive wealth-related competition for acquiring different items, specially the rare ones.

 

Assume we have two people: a poorer A and wealthier B. Assume  they both want the same item through the trading post, but due to there being a lot of people like B or wealthier, the market price is more than A can afford but B can still afford it, then B has won the competition for obtaining that item through the trading post. 

Poorer and wealthier in game, real world, both?

The system only shuffles wealth, it doesn't create it.

So you agree that it is a developer sanctioned competition? 

What are the rules?

Creslin321

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by eyelolled

Vanity competitions?  Wealth competitions? I'm sorry but I just can't feel that these sorts of competitions hold any merit at all.  I'm the type of person that feels that if you're unhappy because someone has a prettier hat then you in a videogame, you should turn off the computer and leave the house.  

Why do PvP competitions hold any more merit? Doesn't is just come down to personal preference? 

Wealth competitions, vanity, PvP via PvE proxy, aren't sanctioned competitions by the developer, so one shouldn't expect them to be supported.

In fact Anet has stated that their PvE is purely cooperative environment.

PvP competitions might hold no merit for certain players, but they are sactioned by the developers so players will buy the game expecting to participate in them.

Are all wealth competitions really not sanctioned? Then why does the trading post work like it does? The trading post enables a massive wealth-related competition for acquiring different items, specially the rare ones.

 

Assume we have two people: a poorer A and wealthier B. Assume  they both want the same item through the trading post, but due to there being a lot of people like B or wealthier, the market price is more than A can afford but B can still afford it, then B has won the competition for obtaining that item through the trading post. 

Poorer and wealthier in game, real world, both?

The system only shuffles wealth, it doesn't create it.

So you agree that it is a developer sanctioned competition? 

What are the rules?

 

You already know the rules, you live in them.

 

Why do ou think people in real life buy Mercedes cars or Versace suits? Our entire society is based on consumerism which encourages competition via acquistion. Do you really think a virtual world is going to be any different?

 

A huge driver behind people wanting to get really fancy armor or whatever in a game is simply to show off, and show everyone their accomplishment. And really, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just human nature.

 

But before legitimate RMT, you had to actually earn that stuff in the game to show it off. It was a mark of your accomplishments, and it meant something.

 

But with RMT, that stuff may have nothing to do with what you did in the game. You may have that stuff because your parents gave you $100...and I think that kind of defeats the point.

seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

But with RMT, that stuff may have nothing to do with what you did in the game. You may have that stuff because your parents gave you $100...and I think that kind of defeats the point.

Yeah but that's in no way Pay 2 Win. The OPs question has been answered a few thousand times already. Anything else is beside the point of P2W or not.

A new topic about RMT in general is needed, nothing about P2W

Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

But with RMT, that stuff may have nothing to do with what you did in the game. You may have that stuff because your parents gave you $100...and I think that kind of defeats the point.

Yeah but that's in no way Pay 2 Win. The OPs question has been answered a few thousand times already. Anything else is beside the point of P2W or not.

A new topic about RMT in general is needed, nothing about P2W

 

P2W, much like sandbox or themepark, is one of those terms that people define to suit their arguments, so I don't really like to use it.

 

But I will say that several people would view being successful and showing that success to society as "winning." In fact, successful people in society are often referred to as "winners."

seridan

I made this earlier, got no answers (it got buried to tons of posts, to everyone: stop quoting everyone above you, makes quotes HUGE and the topic hard to follow, just quote the latest post you are replying to and delete the rest):

Let's see what "win" is:

win (third-person singular simple present wins, present participle winning, simple past and past participle won)

1. (obsolete, transitive) To conquer, defeat.  [quotations ?]
2. (transitive) To triumph or achieve victory in (a game, a war, etc).
3. (transitive) To obtain (someone) by wooing.
4. (intransitive) To achieve victory.

   Who would win in a fight between an octopus and a dolphin?

5. (transitive) To obtain something that is wanted.

   The company hopes to win an order from the government worth over 5 million dollars.

6. (transitive) To cause a victory for someone.

   The success of the economic policies should win Mr. Smith the next elections.

   The policy success should win the elections for Mr. Smith.

1. You need something to defeat,conquer

2. What is victory in GW2

3. We aren't giving roses here

The only part that someone on this thread my "confuse" as Pay 2 Win is 5 "To obtain something that is wanted", but... "wanted" by WHO?

Now let's see what "advantage" is:

Noun

advantage (plural advantages)

1. Any condition, circumstance, opportunity or means, particularly favorable to success, or to any desired end.
2. Superiority; mastery; — used with of to specify its nature or with over to specify the other party.

   The enemy had the advantage of a more elevated position.

3. Superiority of state, or that which gives it; benefit; gain; profit; as, the advantage of a good constitution.
4. (tennis) The score where one player wins a point after deuce but needs the next too to carry the game.

We don't play tennis so 4. is out. The only one that appears to P2W is 2. You can't "win" if you don't have someone to "win over"

 

1. In order to see the CS this way we must first define "success" or "desrired end". What is success in GW2 and in MMORPGs in general? If by success you mean "getting better gear than the other guy" then the CS falls into this category, however I don't see it that way. Why? Because you can do everything in the game without buying any items on the AH. It's not like D3 that you cannot progress in Inferno without buying items and spending your money, that game requires buying items on AH (RM or gold) in order to progress because otherwise you can't PROGRESS. From what we've seen that won't be possible at all in GW2, you can clearly progress without having to resort to the AH.

If by "desired end" you mean getting to 80 faster then that's also not a valid argument, anyone who played the game knows that leveling faster will only make you skip content, there is NO GRINDING so any xp booster will only lead you to skip content, that's YOUR LOSS not YOUR WIN, it's as simple as that.

 

2. My question for this is, OVER WHO do you have an advantage? From the logic of some people on this thread a DLC for a single player game is also P2W because it gives better items who those who bought it. But is it an advantage over other players? Why do you care if someone has more level or better items than you? Can you still progress? YES. Are you still having fun? YES. Is it essential to have that gear to progress? NO. Then why do you even care if someone else has an "advantage" as you say? Why care? Are you like the little children at the kindergarden who envy their friends for having the newest toy? Is it because of a useless sense of pride "why does he have THAT and I can't have it?"

 

3. I already answered above for 3. as well.

 

The only way to say for sure the CS is P2W is if someone is actually "winning" SOMETHING by using it:

1. If in sPVP you could use your bought items/consumables to dominate, yes it would've been P2W in a way. - We all know how sPVP works so there is no "win".

2. If in PVE you couldn't PROGRESS without buying items on the AH then it would also be P2W. We know that you can progress without buying staff up to the current level, I don't believe we'll see a new D3 forming at the later levels.

3. If in PVE there was a serious grind and there were convenient items to skip it (xp boosters) then it would be P2W. - We all know that there is absolutely no grind in the game so xp boosters will "allow" you to skip content, if you are enjoying it, why skip it?

4. If there was Open PVP then there would've been some sort of P2W with those kids camping outside the noob zones killing people.

5. And finally WvWvW, do you honestly believe that level/gear advantage will be so important in a massive battle? Well I don't think so, in Warhammer Online or Lineage 2 (yes a Korean grinder) there was no gear advantage during the big fights, it was all about tactics, teamwork and having the largest zerg sometimes, we already know that a small team of good players, no matter their gear/level can win against a zerg. Gear/Level were second rate and they will be second rate in GW2 WvWvW as well.

Why cry over the CS when it is only giving convenience for those who want it? It doesn't AFFECT YOU if someone is buying items, it doesn't AFFECT YOU if someone levels faster.

botrytis

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

But with RMT, that stuff may have nothing to do with what you did in the game. You may have that stuff because your parents gave you $100...and I think that kind of defeats the point.

Yeah but that's in no way Pay 2 Win. The OPs question has been answered a few thousand times already. Anything else is beside the point of P2W or not.

A new topic about RMT in general is needed, nothing about P2W

 

P2W, much like sandbox or themepark, is one of those terms that people define to suit their arguments, so I don't really like to use it.

 

But I will say that several people would view being successful and showing that success to society as "winning." In fact, successful people in society are often referred to as "winners."

As in life, most successful people work hard and have the proper work ethic. The same can be said for this game, work hard and you will be successful. No amount of money will make you succeed in this game. If you think so, then go ahead and knock yourself out.

seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

 

But I will say that several people would view being successful and showing that success to society as "winning." In fact, successful people in society are often referred to as "winners."

By this logic, The Secret World which has a Cash Shop with ONLY pretty costumes is also P2W. Guild Wars 1 with a CS full of pretty costumes is also full of P2W, WoW as well with the mounts in the CS.

I don't see it as an "issue" against GW2 here, but instead an issue against RMT and Cash Shops in general, their very existance no matter what they have on offer.

vmoped

Originally posted by negativf4kk

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Gem#Real_life_money_--.3E_in_game_money

Looks like P2W?

First off your link is to a Wiki opinion peice.  Anyone can post there.  Good luck getting anyone doing serious research to use a wiki quote and expect to be taken seriously (ie: its a poor source).  Having played EVE and GW2 (both utilize a similar RMT model) I can assure you I failed to see any P2W scenarios.  Yea you can buy gems, sell them on the market, and use the money to buy what... siege weapons? Money has practically no impact on SPVP, and in WvW you can buy siege gear, but you still need supplies.  I have yet to see a siege lost due to overwelming siege equipment either.  In fact most of the time too much siege equipment is deployed and left to rot on the field.

My question to anyone who feels this is P2W with the RMT shop to tell me how?  Because your a winner in your pirate or cook outfit you bought?  The top hat now = win?  You bought a leveling boost that drop randomly as well so you gained a level faster which once again does not affect SPVP, and is quite meaningless in WvW?  The only real impacts of the RMT in GW2 are in PVE which is not competitive (except for those who pride themselves are reaching max level first,or achievement, etc... which is an external factor).

Cheers!

Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

I made this earlier, got no answers (it got buried to tons of posts, to everyone: stop quoting everyone above you, makes quotes HUGE and the topic hard to follow, just quote the latest post you are replying to and delete the rest): Let's see what "win" is: win (third-person singular simple present wins, present participle winning, simple past and past participle won) (obsolete, transitive) To conquer, defeat. ?[quotations ?] (transitive) To triumph or achieve victory in (a game, a war, etc). (transitive) To obtain (someone) by wooing. (intransitive) To achieve victory. Who would win in a fight between an octopus and a dolphin? (transitive) To obtain something that is wanted. The company hopes to win an order from the government worth over 5 million dollars. (transitive) To cause a victory for someone. The success of the economic policies should win Mr. Smith the next elections. The policy success should win the elections for Mr. Smith. 1. You need something to defeat,conquer 2. What is victory in GW2 3. We aren't giving roses here The only part that someone on this thread my "confuse" as Pay 2 Win is 5 "To obtain something that is wanted", but... "wanted" by WHO?Now let's see what "advantage" is: Nounadvantage (plural advantages) Any condition, circumstance, opportunity or means, particularly favorable to success, or to any desired end. Superiority; mastery; — used with of to specify its nature or with over to specify the other party. The enemy had the advantage of a more elevated position. Superiority of state, or that which gives it; benefit; gain; profit; as, the advantage of a good constitution. (tennis) The score where one player wins a point after deuce but needs the next too to carry the game. We don't play tennis so 4. is out. The only one that appears to P2W is 2. You can't "win" if you don't have someone to "win over"   1. In order to see the CS this way we must first define "success" or "desrired end". What is success in GW2 and in MMORPGs in general? If by success you mean "getting better gear than the other guy" then the CS falls into this category, however I don't see it that way. Why? Because you can do everything in the game without buying any items on the AH. It's not like D3 that you cannot progress in Inferno without buying items and spending your money, that game requires buying items on AH (RM or gold) in order to progress because otherwise you can't PROGRESS. From what we've seen that won't be possible at all in GW2, you can clearly progress without having to resort to the AH. If by "desired end" you mean getting to 80 faster then that's also not a valid argument, anyone who played the game knows that leveling faster will only make you skip content, there is NO GRINDING so any xp booster will only lead you to skip content, that's YOUR LOSS not YOUR WIN, it's as simple as that.   2. My question for this is, OVER WHO do you have an advantage? From the logic of some people on this thread a DLC for a single player game is also P2W because it gives better items who those who bought it. But is it an advantage over other players? Why do you care if someone has more level or better items than you? Can you still progress? YES. Are you still having fun? YES. Is it essential to have that gear to progress? NO. Then why do you even care if someone else has an "advantage" as you say? Why care? Are you like the little children at the kindergarden who envy their friends for having the newest toy? Is it because of a useless sense of pride "why does he have THAT and I can't have it?"   3. I already answered above for 3. as well.   The only way to say for sure the CS is P2W is if someone is actually "winning" SOMETHING by using it: 1. If in sPVP you could use your bought items/consumables to dominate, yes it would've been P2W in a way. - We all know how sPVP works so there is no "win". 2. If in PVE you couldn't PROGRESS without buying items on the AH then it would also be P2W. We know that you can progress without buying staff up to the current level, I don't believe we'll see a new D3 forming at the later levels. 3. If in PVE there was a serious grind and there were convenient items to skip it (xp boosters) then it would be P2W. - We all know that there is absolutely no grind in the game so xp boosters will "allow" you to skip content, if you are enjoying it, why skip it? 4. If there was Open PVP then there would've been some sort of P2W with those kids camping outside the noob zones killing people. 5. And finally WvWvW, do you honestly believe that level/gear advantage will be so important in a massive battle? Well I don't think so, in Warhammer Online or Lineage 2 (yes a Korean grinder) there was no gear advantage during the big fights, it was all about tactics, teamwork and having the largest zerg sometimes, we already know that a small team of good players, no matter their gear/level can win against a zerg. Gear/Level were second rate and they will be second rate in GW2 WvWvW as well. Why cry over the CS when it is only giving convenience for those who want it? It doesn't AFFECT YOU if someone is buying items, it doesn't AFFECT YOU if someone levels faster.

 

This is just a very long example of defining P2W to suit your arguments .

 

"Winning" is defined by how any player chooses to compete. And that competition can be defined in many different ways.

 

For example, I would bet that a lot of players define "winning" or success in a game to be based on who has the coolest gear or the flashiest accessory (mount) or whatever. While others may define winning as strictly meaning defeating other players in direct PvP competition.

 

Once again, GW2 is or is not "P2W" based on the player's individual definition of winning, and that's why I'm not a huge fan of arguing about whether it is P2W or not.

Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321
  But I will say that several people would view being successful and showing that success to society as "winning." In fact, successful people in society are often referred to as "winners."

By this logic, The Secret World which has a Cash Shop with ONLY pretty costumes is also P2W. Guild Wars 1 with a CS full of pretty costumes is also full of P2W, WoW as well with the mounts in the CS.

I don't see it as an "issue" against GW2 here, but instead an issue against RMT and Cash Shops in general, their very existance no matter what they have on offer.

 

To some folks...yep I bet the TSW cash shop would be P2W. To me, it isn't, but that's not saying that it isn't for everyone.

 

The only issue I personally have with the GW2 cash shop is that you can buy in game gold (and thus anything in the AH). But really, that doesn't even bother me much. I'm really just arguing against people who are acting like the GW2 cash shop will have no effect on the game whatsoever ,

seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

 

But I will say that several people would view being successful and showing that success to society as "winning." In fact, successful people in society are often referred to as "winners."

By this logic, The Secret World which has a Cash Shop with ONLY pretty costumes is also P2W. Guild Wars 1 with a CS full of pretty costumes is also full of P2W, WoW as well with the mounts in the CS.

I don't see it as an "issue" against GW2 here, but instead an issue against RMT and Cash Shops in general, their very existance no matter what they have on offer.

 

To some folks...yep I bet the TSW cash shop would be P2W. To me, it isn't, but that's not saying that it isn't for everyone.

 

The only issue I personally have with the GW2 cash shop is that you can buy in game gold (and thus anything in the AH). But really, that doesn't even bother me much. I'm really just arguing against people who are acting like the GW2 cash shop will have no effect on the game whatsoever ,

OK I can understand that. But still it doesn't have anything to do with a thread asking if GW2 is P2W or not. It's safe to assume what "kind of P2W" the poster was asking about, or even what kind of meaning lots of people give to "P2W", and seeing all the false info around this thread, like the cs is the end of the world, it was only natural for this conversation to get out of hand.

/thread?

Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by eyelolled

Vanity competitions?  Wealth competitions?

I'm sorry but I just can't feel that these sorts of competitions hold any merit at all.  I'm the type of person that feels that if you're unhappy because someone has a prettier hat then you in a videogame, you should turn off the computer and leave the house.

 

Why do PvP competitions hold any more merit? Doesn't is just come down to personal preference? 

Wealth competitions, vanity, PvP via PvE proxy, aren't sanctioned competitions by the developer, so one shouldn't expect them to be supported.

In fact Anet has stated that their PvE is purely cooperative environment.

PvP competitions might hold no merit for certain players, but they are sactioned by the developers so players will buy the game expecting to participate in them.

Are all wealth competitions really not sanctioned? Then why does the trading post work like it does? The trading post enables a massive wealth-related competition for acquiring different items, specially the rare ones.

 

Assume we have two people: a poorer A and wealthier B. Assume  they both want the same item through the trading post, but due to there being a lot of people like B or wealthier, the market price is more than A can afford but B can still afford it, then B has won the competition for obtaining that item through the trading post. 

Poorer and wealthier in game, real world, both?

The system only shuffles wealth, it doesn't create it.

So you agree that it is a developer sanctioned competition? 

What are the rules?

 

You already know the rules, you live in them.

 

Why do ou think people in real life buy Mercedes cars or Versace suits? Our entire society is based on consumerism which encourages competition via acquistion. Do you really think a virtual world is going to be any different?

 

A huge driver behind people wanting to get really fancy armor or whatever in a game is simply to show off, and show everyone their accomplishment. And really, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just human nature.

 

But before legitimate RMT, you had to actually earn that stuff in the game to show it off. It was a mark of your accomplishments, and it meant something.

 

But with RMT, that stuff may have nothing to do with what you did in the game. You may have that stuff because your parents gave you $100...and I think that kind of defeats the point.

And having the ability to play 8+ hours a day is hard work?

That is the problem with PvE as a competition - most of it is directly related with ability to spend time.

GW2 PvP via PvE is destroyed by gem<->gold.

For me that is great, allowing people to use whatever items they fancy.

Zoyita

Noun

advantage (plural advantages)

1. Any condition, circumstance, opportunity or means, particularly favorable to success, or to any desired end.
2. Superiority; mastery; — used with of to specify its nature or with over to specify the other party.

   The enemy had the advantage of a more elevated position.

   The enemy had the advantage of a more elevated position.

3. Superiority of state, or that which gives it; benefit; gain; profit; as, the advantage of a good constitution.

 

win (third-person singular simple present wins, present participle winning, simple past and past participle won)

1. (obsolete, transitive) To conquer, defeat.  [quotations ?]
2. (transitive) To triumph or achieve victory in (a game, a war, etc).
3. (transitive) To obtain (someone) by wooing.
4. (intransitive) To achieve victory.

   Who would win in a fight between an octopus and a dolphin?     <---------------

5. (transitive) To obtain something that is wanted.

   The company hopes to win an order from the government worth over 5 million dollars.

6. (transitive) To cause a victory for someone.

   The success of the economic policies should win Mr. Smith the next elections.

   The policy success should win the elections for Mr. Smith.

 

Selling Fashions that doesnt have any stats...  why you guys compare fashion styles with p2w? now if the fashion have 5% chance to bleed, or +10 paralyze resist is other topic.. refer better to boost but forget about the fashion thats not the topic on this thread.

I wouldnt call "small advantage as P2W neither" (just because the advantage is not big or is irrelevant to some people with other perspectives) but how to call it? just advantages then? Advantage that you can buy in the cash shop with real money. Also whats your first goal in game? (Goals is your first Win on your list) My first win will be having 3 Gold to give to my Guild Leader so he can be commander, wont give all the 3 Gold but also i need gold to keep repairing and repairing, how long will it take me to get 3 gold? took me 2 beta weekends without exchanging gems for gold, when i learned i got the 3 gold with a click, without exchanging the gems took me 2 betas and i could only make 20 silver no lies.

Yes you can make better gold if you sell items in the trade, but i learned that the hardway, not all people are in guilds with 20 active old GW1 players to teach you the way it goes around on things. I was a fresh new player NEW not a GW1 person and i saw a lot of competition  and i saw myself what having money can do, no money doesnt give any advantage what money can do in GW? Did you watch the video of the golems? all that people exchanged their gems but you know what? you just gonna find something else to say and step into what im saying, but if you want to be competitive in this game you cant be like:

"oh who cares if this people have more than this and thatn that i dont care ill be a carebear in dungeon all day so who cares about WvW" - thats just a looser way of thinking... you have to be ahead prepared and aiming for the best and when someone have an advantage it have it, and someone can be better than you for having more lvls (elite skills) and for having better gears and items, yes we will all get there someone in 2-3 days some others in weeks <--- if that makes you feel better but i wish game is fair if theres exp boost would be to the whole server and not something you have to buy.

 

Oh BTW im not saying is a P2W game - IM NOT SAYING THAT! - but yeah you can buy advantage in the store that yes!

Justsomenoob

Peronally I plan on spending thousands of dollars in RL money to gain a serious fashion advantage.

 

How could anyone deal with me in pvp?

 

'he's got the green armor!  NO WAIT HE'S SWITCHING TO THE BLUE SHOES, OH GOD HE WENT BACK TO THE PURPLE SHOES RETREAT RETREAT"

Zoyita

Nobody is complaining about the fashions, only trolls mention fashions when talking about P2W.

I personally wish theres ton of fashions me myself will buy them.

Adalwulff

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

 

But I will say that several people would view being successful and showing that success to society as "winning." In fact, successful people in society are often referred to as "winners."

By this logic, The Secret World which has a Cash Shop with ONLY pretty costumes is also P2W. Guild Wars 1 with a CS full of pretty costumes is also full of P2W, WoW as well with the mounts in the CS.

I don't see it as an "issue" against GW2 here, but instead an issue against RMT and Cash Shops in general, their very existance no matter what they have on offer.

 

To some folks...yep I bet the TSW cash shop would be P2W. To me, it isn't, but that's not saying that it isn't for everyone.

 

The only issue I personally have with the GW2 cash shop is that you can buy in game gold (and thus anything in the AH). But really, that doesn't even bother me much. I'm really just arguing against people who are acting like the GW2 cash shop will have no effect on the game whatsoever ,

 

Thats because its not effecting the game or the players, something you seem a little bias about. You lost credibility when you said the CS in TSW is not P2W but GW2s shop is?

Ive seen both and there are clearly more advantages to buy in TSW that GW2.