SWTOR delivered a story/lore driven experience that is front and center in a very similar way to TSW. TSW does it well, but it's not innovative. Actually, I would argue that TSW directly pulled from single player experiences presented by Bioware single player games (ME, DAO, ETC.) - heavy on cutscenes with a lot of atmospheric quality. Then SWTOR came out using a similar content delivery method and TSW followed suit.
I mentioned instances because I was saying that everything in TSW is directly related to the lore/story as it unfolds. Even the dungeons are placed in such a way that they integrate seamlessly into the story as you travel through it. They fit the setting and are closely connected to the zone they exist in.
I did not get the same feeling drom the SW:TOR dungeons. They felt disconnected from where I was in the story at that time.
I never claimed that TSW was innovative because it had a story or used cutscenes.
Are you saying it's innovative because dungeons are in the correct zones and connect to the story? WoW did exactly the same thing with... BC? Cataclysm? The story lead you straight into dungeons as you went along. The questing direction and stories were very good at giving the player a sense of direction and showing them what the instances were about before offering main "dungeon quests." Often times, the dungeons were not even a culmination of a zone's progress, but instead the dungeons ran along side the main story development.
That part of TSW is definitely not new or innovative. It's difficult to get a grasp on what you are talking about because you keep shifting it, but trying to cram this whole story/lore driven thing into the word "innovation" doesn't work for me at all.
On the topic of instances, the actual instances themselves are "innovative". I have not played every MMO in existance (only WoW/SWTOR/DCUO/Rift/AoC/AO/SWG) so someone correct me if I am wrong (as I am sure would happen anyway), but this is the first MMO I have seen where instances don't waste your time with 20+ min of trash for 3 min of boss encounters. In TSW, the instances are actually 25+ min of straight up boss encounters, well designed ones at that..
On the topic of instances, the actual instances themselves are "innovative". I have not layed ever MMO in existance (only WoW/SWTOR/DCUO/Rift/AoC/AO/SWG) so someone correct me if I am wrong (as I am sure would happen anyway), but this is the first MMO I have seen where instances don't waste your time with 20+ min of trash for 3 min of boss encounters. In TSW, the instances are actually 25+ min of straight up boss encounters, well designed ones at that..
That sounds awesome. I've been hearing so many good things about the dungeons tbh. I know that WoW raids started removing most of the trash from the raids. But zero trash must be nice.
On the topic of instances, the actual instances themselves are "innovative". I have not layed ever MMO in existance (only WoW/SWTOR/DCUO/Rift/AoC/AO/SWG) so someone correct me if I am wrong (as I am sure would happen anyway), but this is the first MMO I have seen where instances don't waste your time with 20+ min of trash for 3 min of boss encounters. In TSW, the instances are actually 25+ min of straight up boss encounters, well designed ones at that..
That sounds awesome. I've been hearing so many good things about the dungeons tbh. I know that WoW raids started removing most of the trash from the raids. But zero trash must be nice.
it's not zero trash.. but it is very limited amount from my experience so far.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
It is not the best mmorpg of the year, but it is the most innovative daredevil game of the 2012, which will pave way for future mmorpg. IMO. In fact archeage has similiar skill system that tsw has.
The days of spec into pure healing, tanking, or dps is gone. HYbrid i where its at. Freeedom to choose how you play is the new hotness.
Yeah as innovative as SWTOR...............I rember how people were amazed by the Storyline feature.
Just because it has a decent feature, that doesn't make it an innovative MMO.
In fact TSW is pretty generic, and IMO boring as hell.
There is no point in having a good Skill system if the combat is so pathetic.
On the topic of instances, the actual instances themselves are "innovative". I have not layed ever MMO in existance (only WoW/SWTOR/DCUO/Rift/AoC/AO/SWG) so someone correct me if I am wrong (as I am sure would happen anyway), but this is the first MMO I have seen where instances don't waste your time with 20+ min of trash for 3 min of boss encounters. In TSW, the instances are actually 25+ min of straight up boss encounters, well designed ones at that..
That sounds awesome. I've been hearing so many good things about the dungeons tbh. I know that WoW raids started removing most of the trash from the raids. But zero trash must be nice.
Its technically not "0" trash, but it ranges from 0 trash from boss to boss in some areas, to 2 trash mobs inbetween Boss pulls in others. And as a few people have already pointed out, the boss fights themselves are insanly epic, pretty akin to raid bosses of WoW/Rift/SWTOR, and I am not even talking TSW hardmodes yet.
It is not the best mmorpg of the year, but it is the most innovative daredevil game of the 2012, which will pave way for future mmorpg. IMO. In fact archeage has similiar skill system that tsw has.
The days of spec into pure healing, tanking, or dps is gone. HYbrid i where its at. Freeedom to choose how you play is the new hotness.
Yeah as innovative as SWTOR...............I rember how people were amazed by the Storyline feature.
Just because it has a decent feature, that doesn't make it an innovative MMO.
In fact TSW is pretty generic, and IMO boring as hell.
There is no point in having a good Skill system if the combat is so pathetic.
what's wrong with combat?
aside from the broken gear manager.....
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
It is not the best mmorpg of the year, but it is the most innovative daredevil game of the 2012, which will pave way for future mmorpg. IMO. In fact archeage has similiar skill system that tsw has.
The days of spec into pure healing, tanking, or dps is gone. HYbrid i where its at. Freeedom to choose how you play is the new hotness.
Yeah as innovative as SWTOR...............I rember how people were amazed by the Storyline feature.
Just because it has a decent feature, that doesn't make it an innovative MMO.
In fact TSW is pretty generic, and IMO boring as hell.
There is no point in having a good Skill system if the combat is so pathetic.
what's wrong with combat?
Its not Tera, but it is pretty much exactly like every other popular themepark MMO out there...I guess thats a big detrament for some.
It is not the best mmorpg of the year, but it is the most innovative daredevil game of the 2012, which will pave way for future mmorpg. IMO. In fact archeage has similiar skill system that tsw has.
The days of spec into pure healing, tanking, or dps is gone. HYbrid i where its at. Freeedom to choose how you play is the new hotness.
Yeah as innovative as SWTOR...............I rember how people were amazed by the Storyline feature.
Just because it has a decent feature, that doesn't make it an innovative MMO.
In fact TSW is pretty generic, and IMO boring as hell.
There is no point in having a good Skill system if the combat is so pathetic.
what's wrong with combat?
Its not Tera, but it is pretty much exactly like every other popular themepark MMO out there...I guess thats a big detrament for some.
TERA combat isn't very fun imho.. just the extreme lack of options in the game I found it to be not interesting at all, mystic was only class I found semi interesting but overall the game is just shallow and extremely dull/reptative.. I think many never even bothered having multiple builds in TSW and doing the deck dance between fights to see how enjoyable this combat system really is.. oh well their loss I suppose. although for the OPs title I'd say no not the most innovative for the year sadly.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
SWTOR delivered a story/lore driven experience that is front and center in a very similar way to TSW. TSW does it well, but it's not innovative. Actually, I would argue that TSW directly pulled from single player experiences presented by Bioware single player games (ME, DAO, ETC.) - heavy on cutscenes with a lot of atmospheric quality. Then SWTOR came out using a similar content delivery method and TSW followed suit.
I mentioned instances because I was saying that everything in TSW is directly related to the lore/story as it unfolds. Even the dungeons are placed in such a way that they integrate seamlessly into the story as you travel through it. They fit the setting and are closely connected to the zone they exist in.
I did not get the same feeling drom the SW:TOR dungeons. They felt disconnected from where I was in the story at that time.
I never claimed that TSW was innovative because it had a story or used cutscenes.
Are you saying it's innovative because dungeons are in the correct zones and connect to the story? WoW did exactly the same thing with... BC? Cataclysm? The story lead you straight into dungeons as you went along. The questing direction and stories were very good at giving the player a sense of direction and showing them what the instances were about before offering main "dungeon quests." Often times, the dungeons were not even a culmination of a zone's progress, but instead the dungeons ran along side the main story development.
That part of TSW is definitely not new or innovative. It's difficult to get a grasp on what you are talking about because you keep shifting it, but trying to cram this whole story/lore driven thing into the word "innovation" doesn't work for me at all.
Yeah, "atmosphere" is way too subjective and too difficult to pin down. I considered adding "lore/story" as another point on my original list, but it's too difficult to define, because when people talk about the great atmosphere in TSW, it's mainly an emotional reaction to a whole range of things that are working together to create a certain "feeling". YMMV.
So 3 of my original points still stand:
The setting is innovative (modern day setting, occult/conspiracy theme)
The limited quest journal (with ability to "pause" a quest) is innovative
The investigation quests are innovative (strong case here for "never seen before" in respect of the quests that require you to visit fake websites, created specially for the game, to find answers)
Please note he said of this year.. so his points stick..
also
Have investigation missions like this been done in MMORPGs before? i cant think of any other MMORPG where i have had to translate morse code..
Also what modern AAA mmorpgs have there been ?
at the end of the day its a Themepark MMORPG so yeah its gonna be similar to other games..
Please note that the word innovation means one thing, it is being used for something OTHER than its meaning.
Or are we going to start digging through every MMO released this year and come up with wonderful lists like.
Hey, this game has cheese wheels to eat, others dont...its more innovative!
Because, basically...thats what you need to do to make TSW look innovative...change the meaning of the word. Hey I know! lets call TSW original also, it has black hair parted to the left on short males, no other game has done that this year either.
What the hell is this thread o_O. It's impressively stated one thing, then gone off on a wander without ever explaining the original point.
"TSW is the most innovative MMORPG of the year BECAUSE ______". (fill in the blanks)
I played 1 beta weekend, and personally I didn't see anything "innovative" in the gameplay.
- the clothing system is different, and decoupling 'power' from 'appearance' is a positive move (but one every MMO should be doing anyway).
- the setting is very well done, although that's not really innovative.
- the 'wheel' progression system really didn't do anything for me at all.
- the puzzle quests are interesting, although personally they are problematic in an MMO setting, and I don't see this as something another MMO could/should copy.
- the deeper storyline is something we've seen with SWTOR. Personally SWTOR was better at the story telling, but the setting in TSW gives it a definite edge.
- the combat is certainly not innovative.
----
That's not to say that TSW is a bad game, or that it won't be successful - but I didn't see much innovation.
So you posted 3 innovative desgins in this MMORPG and just dismissed them because A you didnt like them or B you think other MMORPGs should be doing it
Decoupling appearance and power is not innovative as it has been done in other MMOs before, perhaps not to the degree that TSW does it... but certainly in the same way. Vanity items, per chance? Eve, for example, has been discussing player appearance beyond stat-driven itemisation for MANY years now, and has presented a working example of this with WIS. Just because you can't see other player avatars (due to the lack of WiS) does not mean that it didn't happen there first. It did. So all TSW did was copy a concept presented most recently in Eve, that has been present in pretty much all MMOs since ever. That's not innovation.
The "spec wheel" is nothing innovative either. If you are suggesting that the shallow presentation of mathematics as images counts for innovation, then every game that has ever deviated from the standard "click and pick" tree approach is innovative, which is clearly untrue. All Funcom did with TSW is take a skill system that is pretty much exactly the same as any other skill system, removed class boundaries, and that was that. They didn't however do anything remotely innovative with the ACTUAL system. The system itself still panders to the same boundaries as any other RPG system, and forces you into the same choices. All they've done by opening up the field like that is reduce the replayability of the game, as you can do all things on a single character, which is a large reason for the success of other titles in the MMO space. This is the only area that any TSW fan can claim innovation, and that claim is stretched thin...
Puzzle quests have been in other MMOs.
The Secret World does NOTHING innovative. It presents things in a new and interesting way, in the same way Conan did, but it doesn't actually innovate on the established formula. It panders to it, like every MMO has since WoW (excluding a few). The combat is absolutely and astonishingly terrible, the encounter design is the same encounter design I've seen 1000 times in 1000 other MMOs, the story and dialogue is trite, immature and poorly presented, and the game itself just looks like yet another grind of a "world on rails" without any redeeming qualities what so ever.
TSW, for me, typifies the current idea that an MMO is merely a single player game with people milling around each other. That's not what the genre was conceived as, and that's ultimately not where it's going to go. I'll put the last 10 years down to experimentation, but what's happening now should indicate where the genre is going. TSWs problem is it applies applies 2004 rules to a 2012 problem, just like SWTOR did.
The Questing System is every good. Its a new way to do quests/missions and it also makes since. No more of going back and forth to the same quest giving to get a quest that takes you right back to the same damn area. In Seret World every Main and Secondary quest is a Quest Line and Story. When Ever You pick up a quest you follow the quest through its story to the end. You even have the Option of doing all the quests in the game over if you want to for CP/EXP. Best system that i have seen yet. The Questing is very fun.. I went and tryed to play another game with the old questing system and i just could not take it anymore....
Ability Wheel
OMG the most fun I have ever had with just abilitys alone. You can do anything with any combination of abilitys.If you want to crit, pen, weaken, dot, hinder, summon manesfestation, turrents, drones, blade, hammer, claw, blood magic, element magic, chaos magic (melee magic), Assault Rifle, Pistols, Shotguns, and alot more.. All this in one game lol.. 10/10 for me
PVP
Persitant PVP, BattleGround, Instance pvp.. SO much fun. 3 Faction type pvp is so much fun. The zone is so big... Best pvp i have experienced so far in my 25yrs of gaming...
Graphics
Just beatiful, Stunning, and scary at the same time. The way this game used its lightning is great for a game like this. You can play this game on any system. DX9 10 11... great on all of them. The World looks really good. Graphics to me is very important. I spend alot of money on a graphics card so i can use it most of its processing power. Not to be used so only 1% of it is being used lol...
Instance's/Dungeon
So much fun and challenging at times. The Instance's are well made.
Doing missions that take you outside the box
When I first started playing There were a few missions that i could not solve. After reading throught the missions it told me that i would have to go out side of the box to get my clue's and/or answers. Well I had to go to Google and other places in the real world just to do some of the missions. That was so much fun. It works really well on a game that takes play in our time.... Thats oneof many things that i will always remember abou this game
Theres so much more but I wanna get back into the game and play.. See you guys later
So since most of this thread has been a bunch of qibbling over definitions and wording .. lets try a DIFFERENT SPIN
If you had to SELECT ONLY ONE MMORPG game released in 2012 that was the most innovative (even if you dont think it was all that innovative) which would it be.
What the hell is this thread o_O. It's impressively stated one thing, then gone off on a wander without ever explaining the original point.
"TSW is the most innovative MMORPG of the year BECAUSE ______". (fill in the blanks)
I played 1 beta weekend, and personally I didn't see anything "innovative" in the gameplay.
- the clothing system is different, and decoupling 'power' from 'appearance' is a positive move (but one every MMO should be doing anyway).
- the setting is very well done, although that's not really innovative.
- the 'wheel' progression system really didn't do anything for me at all.
- the puzzle quests are interesting, although personally they are problematic in an MMO setting, and I don't see this as something another MMO could/should copy.
- the deeper storyline is something we've seen with SWTOR. Personally SWTOR was better at the story telling, but the setting in TSW gives it a definite edge.
- the combat is certainly not innovative.
----
That's not to say that TSW is a bad game, or that it won't be successful - but I didn't see much innovation.
So you posted 3 innovative desgins in this MMORPG and just dismissed them because A you didnt like them or B you think other MMORPGs should be doing it
Decoupling appearance and power is not innovative as it has been done in other MMOs before, perhaps not to the degree that TSW does it... but certainly in the same way. Vanity items, per chance? Eve, for example, has been discussing player appearance beyond stat-driven itemisation for MANY years now, and has presented a working example of this with WIS. Just because you can't see other player avatars (due to the lack of WiS) does not mean that it didn't happen there first. It did. So all TSW did was copy a concept presented most recently in Eve, that has been present in pretty much all MMOs since ever. That's not innovation.
The "spec wheel" is nothing innovative either. If you are suggesting that the shallow presentation of mathematics as images counts for innovation, then every game that has ever deviated from the standard "click and pick" tree approach is innovative, which is clearly untrue. All Funcom did with TSW is take a skill system that is pretty much exactly the same as any other skill system, removed class boundaries, and that was that. They didn't however do anything remotely innovative with the ACTUAL system. The system itself still panders to the same boundaries as any other RPG system, and forces you into the same choices. All they've done by opening up the field like that is reduce the replayability of the game, as you can do all things on a single character, which is a large reason for the success of other titles in the MMO space. This is the only area that any TSW fan can claim innovation, and that claim is stretched thin...
Puzzle quests have been in other MMOs.
The Secret World does NOTHING innovative. It presents things in a new and interesting way, in the same way Conan did, but it doesn't actually innovate on the established formula. It panders to it, like every MMO has since WoW (excluding a few). The combat is absolutely and astonishingly terrible, the encounter design is the same encounter design I've seen 1000 times in 1000 other MMOs, the story and dialogue is trite, immature and poorly presented, and the game itself just looks like yet another grind of a "world on rails" without any redeeming qualities what so ever.
TSW, for me, typifies the current idea that an MMO is merely a single player game with people milling around each other. That's not what the genre was conceived as, and that's ultimately not where it's going to go. I'll put the last 10 years down to experimentation, but what's happening now should indicate where the genre is going. TSWs problem is it applies applies 2004 rules to a 2012 problem, just like SWTOR did.
It's a really, really, really boring game.
Funny, then I have been bored for hours straight every night since the game came out - guess our definitions of bored differ greatly !
while I "Sort of" Agree TSW at times feels more like a single player RPG, I have also been in areas and grouped up wiht people to finish tough quests, I just wish they did more to encourage the grouping part. While LFG systems are often looked upon wiht frowns, this game seems apt to support one.
And puzzles and immersing quests in an MMO like TSW, hmm guess I missed those in the dozens of MMOs I have played, perhaps you could share an example of such an mmo ?
and since people are great at critisism , what game in your opinion was the most innovative MMO of 2012 ?
So since most of this thread has been a bunch of qibbling over definitions and wording .. lets try a DIFFERENT SPIN
If you had to SELECT ONLY ONE MMORPG game released in 2012 that was the most innovative (even if you dont think it was all that innovative) which would it be.
In that context , so far I would have to say TSW
Tribes Ascend...because it actually has innovation.
See, what you did not change in your "spin" is the word innovation. innovatation is innovative, using ideas in other games is REHASHING.
So try this spin instead.
If you had to SELECT ONLY ONE MMORPG game released in 2012 that was the most REHASHED, which would it be?
It still wouldnt be TSW, it would be Diablo 3 which was a total rehash.
So...lets spin a little more.
If you had to SELECT ONLY ONE MMORPG game released in JULY of 2012, which would it be?
Ok...TSW wins that one. See, we can just keep spinning until TSW looks good, just like politics. spin baby spin.
Lets look at what innovation actually means shall we :-
The word innovation derives from the Latin word innovatus, which is the noun form of innovare "to renew or change," stemming from in—"into" + novus—"new". Diffusion of innovation research was first started in 1903 by seminal researcher Gabriel Tarde, who first plotted the S-shaped diffusion curve. Tarde (1903) defined the innovation-decision process as a series of steps that includes:[1]
First knowledge
Forming an attitude
A decision to adopt or reject
Implementation and use
Confirmation of the decision
This is what TSW have done they first took in previous knowledge of what worked what did not work. They then determined which aspects they wanted to keep and which they did not. They adapted exisiting technology and ideas and made them fit into their concept and this concept was then implemented.
The final stage of the confirmation of thier decision is down to us the playerbase. If we like this direction we will continue to play reinforcing the idea that this is a positive direction. The final proof of whether it is a true innovation however will be if future mmorps continue to build and improve this mmorpg model or if they still continue to buld off of the previous WOW model. Which is self was developed off of the EverQuest model.
So let's be honest here: TSW does nothing innovative beyond a small set of "niche" and "game specific" shallow alterations to the established formula.
I love the back-peddling from TSW fans right now...
"OK... so TSW isn't actually that innovative, but NAME ANOTHER MMO THAT IS EVEN CLOSE TO BEING AS INNOVATIVE IN 2012?"
OK... I will...
Star Wars The Old Republic:
For all of its faults, SWTOR introduced some innovation in the MMO genre that is set to be repeated by other developers.
The story mode in SWTOR is innovative in as much as it goes a way to bringing truly choice-driven story and character progression to MMOs like never before. Whilst we can argue about how far it went (or didn't go, as the case may be), It went X distance and introduced something that no other developer has succeeded in doing before.
Guild Wars 2:
Guild Wars 2 offers a cross-class, cross player combo system that I have yet to see emulated in another MMO. The Elementalist, for example, can set fire on the floor, and any Ranger who fires through that will enjoy Fire Arrows that benefit from additional elemental damage.
The shielding system is also pretty innovative, allowing matial classes to use Shields to not only block incoming projectiles and other attacks from hitting them, but also anyone behind them.
Let's not forget that the weapon system has a direct relation to the skills and abilities your class has, and the weapon you use defines your game play in a way no other MMO has achieved. In addition, weapons are environment specific in some instances (such as weapons that can ONLY be used underwater).
Class specific innovation, such as the ability for thieves to steal items and abilities based on the items equipped by the class they attack. Another example of this is the ability for Elementalists to "switch stance" with a staff equipped, altering the spells provided by that weapon to a huge degree.
Another facet of the weapon system is the "environmentally aware" weapon abilites, where abilities will change and alter their effects based on a number of crtieria, including time of day, location, surrounding environment, etc. A weapon for example that may heal you during the day may alter at night to leach life from enemies, as opposed to healing for a percentage of damage. (This is interesting, because we've yet to see this working... but it's set to become a facet of end game itemisation).
The ability to switch weapons in combat, allowing for ranged player to apply specific abilities that are then complimented (and sometimes directly effected) by the melee abilities they switch to using at close range.
Dynamic events are a huge step forward from the Public Quest system first introduced in Warhammer Online. Dynamic events have, in some instances, multiple different non-linear progressions based on the input of the players at the event. In one instance, for example, you may succeed in repelling an enemy force which gives you access to a small hub, and progresses on to attacking the enemy stronghold. In another outcome of the same quest, players may fail to defend the small hub and then have to fight to take the hub back (instead of attacking the stronghold). At end game, dynamic events become far more ellaborate, and require larger groups of players to complete.
Guild Wars 2 world design is, without a doubt, the most stunning and impressive world design not just in the MMO genre, but in the gaming industry as a whole. The only other franchise that comes close to matching the sheer scale and scope of Guild Wars 2 is The Elder Scrolls. Cities are actual cities in size, the game world is actually huge and the designers and developers have gone to great lengths to deliver a truly organic environment, where transitions from one type of environment to another are natural progressions (rather than the "invisible lines" or loading screen we're used to in other games). Not only this, but the game has been seeded with a truly impressive number of NPCs, a simply addition that goes further than any other MMO in making the game world feel truly inhabited.
There are plenty more things on the list of things GW2 does for the MMO genre, but those are perhaps my favourites.
TERA:
Combat system. That's all that needs to be said, really.
Eve:
As far as technical innovation, the procedural time dilation system they implemented was perhaps the most innovative thing out of an MMO developer this year.
Guild Wars 2 world design is, without a doubt, the most stunning and impressive world design not just in the MMO genre, but in the gaming industry as a whole. The only other franchise that comes close to matching the sheer scale and scope of Guild Wars 2 is The Elder Scrolls. Cities are actual cities in size, the game world is actually huge and the designers and developers have gone to great lengths to deliver a truly organic environment, where transitions from one type of environment to another are natural progressions (rather than the "invisible lines" or loading screen we're used to in other games). Not only this, but the game has been seeded with a truly impressive number of NPCs, a simply addition that goes further than any other MMO in making the game world feel truly inhabited.
.
If you like stylised graphics, then GW2 may be "the one" for you.
However, I prefer realistic graphics, so TSW gets my vote in the graphics department without a shadow of a doubt. GW2 can't touch TSW on graphics and atmosphere, the only 2 contenders I would remotely consider would be AoC and Vanguard.
Cities may be large in GW2, but afaik they're not part of the "normal" game world. You have to zone-in to cities, don't you ?
A smooth progression from terrain in one area to another is not innovative in the least. It has been done before.
Having non-static NPC's in the world is not innovative, it has been done before. Perhaps having a "a lot more" could be considered innovative. Kind of.
(I won't critique your suggestions on combat mechanics, don't have enough personal experience of playing themeparks in the last few years. However, I have seen screenshots and playthroughs for most of them, so I can express an opinion on graphics and world features).
(I won't critique your suggestions on combat mechanics, don't have enough personal experience of playing themeparks in the last few years. However, I have seen screenshots and playthroughs for most of them, so I can express an opinion on graphics and world features).
[mod edit]
Guild Wars 2 is a themepark like TSW is a themepark. I've played both. TSW is more of a themepark "game on rails" than Guild Wars 2, by a long... long... long way.
The point you are missing,[mod edit], is that Guild Wars 2 does it's game world and world design on a scale I have yet to see emulated in another MMO. MMOs were envisioned as online worlds for players to explore, and this is something that no developer - including Funcom - has managed to transition into the "age of themeparks". ArenaNet has gone a huge ways to bridging the gap, offering a similar crop of content to the typical "quest and progress" systems in existing MMOs (you know... like the one that drives you through EVERYTHING you do in TSW), and a more open sandbox for you to explore at your own pace.
TSW is JUST a typical MMO, and that will be reflected by the huge churn rate and lack of player retention you'll see reported in 3 months time.
So let's be honest here: TSW does nothing innovative beyond a small set of "niche" and "game specific" shallow alterations to the established formula.
I love the back-peddling from TSW fans right now...
"OK... so TSW isn't actually that innovative, but NAME ANOTHER MMO THAT IS EVEN CLOSE TO BEING AS INNOVATIVE IN 2012?"
OK... I will...
Star Wars The Old Republic:
For all of its faults, SWTOR introduced some innovation in the MMO genre that is set to be repeated by other developers.
The story mode in SWTOR is innovative in as much as it goes a way to bringing truly choice-driven story and character progression to MMOs like never before. Whilst we can argue about how far it went (or didn't go, as the case may be), It went X distance and introduced something that no other developer has succeeded in doing before.
Guild Wars 2:
Guild Wars 2 offers a cross-class, cross player combo system that I have yet to see emulated in another MMO. The Elementalist, for example, can set fire on the floor, and any Ranger who fires through that will enjoy Fire Arrows that benefit from additional elemental damage.
The shielding system is also pretty innovative, allowing matial classes to use Shields to not only block incoming projectiles and other attacks from hitting them, but also anyone behind them.
Let's not forget that the weapon system has a direct relation to the skills and abilities your class has, and the weapon you use defines your game play in a way no other MMO has achieved. In addition, weapons are environment specific in some instances (such as weapons that can ONLY be used underwater).
Class specific innovation, such as the ability for thieves to steal items and abilities based on the items equipped by the class they attack. Another example of this is the ability for Elementalists to "switch stance" with a staff equipped, altering the spells provided by that weapon to a huge degree.
Another facet of the weapon system is the "environmentally aware" weapon abilites, where abilities will change and alter their effects based on a number of crtieria, including time of day, location, surrounding environment, etc. A weapon for example that may heal you during the day may alter at night to leach life from enemies, as opposed to healing for a percentage of damage. (This is interesting, because we've yet to see this working... but it's set to become a facet of end game itemisation).
The ability to switch weapons in combat, allowing for ranged player to apply specific abilities that are then complimented (and sometimes directly effected) by the melee abilities they switch to using at close range.
Dynamic events are a huge step forward from the Public Quest system first introduced in Warhammer Online. Dynamic events have, in some instances, multiple different non-linear progressions based on the input of the players at the event. In one instance, for example, you may succeed in repelling an enemy force which gives you access to a small hub, and progresses on to attacking the enemy stronghold. In another outcome of the same quest, players may fail to defend the small hub and then have to fight to take the hub back (instead of attacking the stronghold). At end game, dynamic events become far more ellaborate, and require larger groups of players to complete.
Guild Wars 2 world design is, without a doubt, the most stunning and impressive world design not just in the MMO genre, but in the gaming industry as a whole. The only other franchise that comes close to matching the sheer scale and scope of Guild Wars 2 is The Elder Scrolls. Cities are actual cities in size, the game world is actually huge and the designers and developers have gone to great lengths to deliver a truly organic environment, where transitions from one type of environment to another are natural progressions (rather than the "invisible lines" or loading screen we're used to in other games). Not only this, but the game has been seeded with a truly impressive number of NPCs, a simply addition that goes further than any other MMO in making the game world feel truly inhabited.
There are plenty more things on the list of things GW2 does for the MMO genre, but those are perhaps my favourites.
TERA:
Combat system. That's all that needs to be said, really.
Eve:
As far as technical innovation, the procedural time dilation system they implemented was perhaps the most innovative thing out of an MMO developer this year.
This is how a GW2 dev used the word when talking about DEs.
"Are events an entirely brand-new system people have never seen before? No, they are not. They are our attempt to innovate on traditional concepts and elevate them to something different than what people have experienced before, while keeping alive enough of the old so that people feel comfortable with the system."
"Are events an entirely brand-new system people have never seen before? No, they are not. They are our attempt to innovate on traditional concepts and elevate them to something different than what people have experienced before, while keeping alive enough of the old so that people feel comfortable with the system."
And this is how I open my comments on the DEs:
"Dynamic events are a huge step forward from the Public Quest system first introduced in Warhammer Online. "
So, basically, nothing new. Only new spins on old mechanics, like TSW.
For example, what we've been discussing is investigation missions aren't innnovative because puzzle quests aren't new. So, an evolved PQ isn't innovative.
Another, TERA's combat? Really? Action combat is defenatly not new.
Another, GW2's world design. How is it innovative in any shape or form? It's just a world. If you like the desig, cool, i like it too, but it's not innovative.
If those are your defenition os innovative, then yes, TSW is the most "new" mmo of the year.
Comments
On the topic of instances, the actual instances themselves are "innovative". I have not played every MMO in existance (only WoW/SWTOR/DCUO/Rift/AoC/AO/SWG) so someone correct me if I am wrong (as I am sure would happen anyway), but this is the first MMO I have seen where instances don't waste your time with 20+ min of trash for 3 min of boss encounters. In TSW, the instances are actually 25+ min of straight up boss encounters, well designed ones at that..
That sounds awesome. I've been hearing so many good things about the dungeons tbh. I know that WoW raids started removing most of the trash from the raids. But zero trash must be nice.
it's not zero trash.. but it is very limited amount from my experience so far.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Yeah as innovative as SWTOR...............I rember how people were amazed by the Storyline feature.
Just because it has a decent feature, that doesn't make it an innovative MMO.
In fact TSW is pretty generic, and IMO boring as hell.
There is no point in having a good Skill system if the combat is so pathetic.
Its technically not "0" trash, but it ranges from 0 trash from boss to boss in some areas, to 2 trash mobs inbetween Boss pulls in others. And as a few people have already pointed out, the boss fights themselves are insanly epic, pretty akin to raid bosses of WoW/Rift/SWTOR, and I am not even talking TSW hardmodes yet.
what's wrong with combat?
aside from the broken gear manager.....
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Its not Tera, but it is pretty much exactly like every other popular themepark MMO out there...I guess thats a big detrament for some.
TERA combat isn't very fun imho.. just the extreme lack of options in the game I found it to be not interesting at all, mystic was only class I found semi interesting but overall the game is just shallow and extremely dull/reptative.. I think many never even bothered having multiple builds in TSW and doing the deck dance between fights to see how enjoyable this combat system really is.. oh well their loss I suppose. although for the OPs title I'd say no not the most innovative for the year sadly.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
"Your own opinion matters more." most innovative mmorpg of the year.
Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games
Yeah, "atmosphere" is way too subjective and too difficult to pin down. I considered adding "lore/story" as another point on my original list, but it's too difficult to define, because when people talk about the great atmosphere in TSW, it's mainly an emotional reaction to a whole range of things that are working together to create a certain "feeling". YMMV.
So 3 of my original points still stand:
Please note that the word innovation means one thing, it is being used for something OTHER than its meaning.
Or are we going to start digging through every MMO released this year and come up with wonderful lists like.
Hey, this game has cheese wheels to eat, others dont...its more innovative!
Because, basically...thats what you need to do to make TSW look innovative...change the meaning of the word. Hey I know! lets call TSW original also, it has black hair parted to the left on short males, no other game has done that this year either.
Decoupling appearance and power is not innovative as it has been done in other MMOs before, perhaps not to the degree that TSW does it... but certainly in the same way. Vanity items, per chance? Eve, for example, has been discussing player appearance beyond stat-driven itemisation for MANY years now, and has presented a working example of this with WIS. Just because you can't see other player avatars (due to the lack of WiS) does not mean that it didn't happen there first. It did. So all TSW did was copy a concept presented most recently in Eve, that has been present in pretty much all MMOs since ever. That's not innovation.
The "spec wheel" is nothing innovative either. If you are suggesting that the shallow presentation of mathematics as images counts for innovation, then every game that has ever deviated from the standard "click and pick" tree approach is innovative, which is clearly untrue. All Funcom did with TSW is take a skill system that is pretty much exactly the same as any other skill system, removed class boundaries, and that was that. They didn't however do anything remotely innovative with the ACTUAL system. The system itself still panders to the same boundaries as any other RPG system, and forces you into the same choices. All they've done by opening up the field like that is reduce the replayability of the game, as you can do all things on a single character, which is a large reason for the success of other titles in the MMO space. This is the only area that any TSW fan can claim innovation, and that claim is stretched thin...
Puzzle quests have been in other MMOs.
The Secret World does NOTHING innovative. It presents things in a new and interesting way, in the same way Conan did, but it doesn't actually innovate on the established formula. It panders to it, like every MMO has since WoW (excluding a few). The combat is absolutely and astonishingly terrible, the encounter design is the same encounter design I've seen 1000 times in 1000 other MMOs, the story and dialogue is trite, immature and poorly presented, and the game itself just looks like yet another grind of a "world on rails" without any redeeming qualities what so ever.
TSW, for me, typifies the current idea that an MMO is merely a single player game with people milling around each other. That's not what the genre was conceived as, and that's ultimately not where it's going to go. I'll put the last 10 years down to experimentation, but what's happening now should indicate where the genre is going. TSWs problem is it applies applies 2004 rules to a 2012 problem, just like SWTOR did.
It's a really, really, really boring game.
Best game of the year for me.. Why?
Questing
The Questing System is every good. Its a new way to do quests/missions and it also makes since. No more of going back and forth to the same quest giving to get a quest that takes you right back to the same damn area. In Seret World every Main and Secondary quest is a Quest Line and Story. When Ever You pick up a quest you follow the quest through its story to the end. You even have the Option of doing all the quests in the game over if you want to for CP/EXP. Best system that i have seen yet. The Questing is very fun.. I went and tryed to play another game with the old questing system and i just could not take it anymore....
Ability Wheel
OMG the most fun I have ever had with just abilitys alone. You can do anything with any combination of abilitys.If you want to crit, pen, weaken, dot, hinder, summon manesfestation, turrents, drones, blade, hammer, claw, blood magic, element magic, chaos magic (melee magic), Assault Rifle, Pistols, Shotguns, and alot more.. All this in one game lol.. 10/10 for me
PVP
Persitant PVP, BattleGround, Instance pvp.. SO much fun. 3 Faction type pvp is so much fun. The zone is so big... Best pvp i have experienced so far in my 25yrs of gaming...
Graphics
Just beatiful, Stunning, and scary at the same time. The way this game used its lightning is great for a game like this. You can play this game on any system. DX9 10 11... great on all of them. The World looks really good. Graphics to me is very important. I spend alot of money on a graphics card so i can use it most of its processing power. Not to be used so only 1% of it is being used lol...
Instance's/Dungeon
So much fun and challenging at times. The Instance's are well made.
Doing missions that take you outside the box
When I first started playing There were a few missions that i could not solve. After reading throught the missions it told me that i would have to go out side of the box to get my clue's and/or answers. Well I had to go to Google and other places in the real world just to do some of the missions. That was so much fun. It works really well on a game that takes play in our time.... Thats oneof many things that i will always remember abou this game
Theres so much more but I wanna get back into the game and play.. See you guys later
Yeah, GOTY absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt.
The game is stunning. Funcom done good.
So since most of this thread has been a bunch of qibbling over definitions and wording .. lets try a DIFFERENT SPIN
If you had to SELECT ONLY ONE MMORPG game released in 2012 that was the most innovative (even if you dont think it was all that innovative) which would it be.
In that context , so far I would have to say TSW
Funny, then I have been bored for hours straight every night since the game came out - guess our definitions of bored differ greatly !
while I "Sort of" Agree TSW at times feels more like a single player RPG, I have also been in areas and grouped up wiht people to finish tough quests, I just wish they did more to encourage the grouping part. While LFG systems are often looked upon wiht frowns, this game seems apt to support one.
And puzzles and immersing quests in an MMO like TSW, hmm guess I missed those in the dozens of MMOs I have played, perhaps you could share an example of such an mmo ?
and since people are great at critisism , what game in your opinion was the most innovative MMO of 2012 ?
Tribes Ascend...because it actually has innovation.
See, what you did not change in your "spin" is the word innovation. innovatation is innovative, using ideas in other games is REHASHING.
So try this spin instead.
If you had to SELECT ONLY ONE MMORPG game released in 2012 that was the most REHASHED, which would it be?
It still wouldnt be TSW, it would be Diablo 3 which was a total rehash.
So...lets spin a little more.
If you had to SELECT ONLY ONE MMORPG game released in JULY of 2012, which would it be?
Ok...TSW wins that one. See, we can just keep spinning until TSW looks good, just like politics. spin baby spin.
Lets look at what innovation actually means shall we :-
The word innovation derives from the Latin word innovatus, which is the noun form of innovare "to renew or change," stemming from in—"into" + novus—"new". Diffusion of innovation research was first started in 1903 by seminal researcher Gabriel Tarde, who first plotted the S-shaped diffusion curve. Tarde (1903) defined the innovation-decision process as a series of steps that includes:[1]
So let's be honest here: TSW does nothing innovative beyond a small set of "niche" and "game specific" shallow alterations to the established formula.
I love the back-peddling from TSW fans right now...
"OK... so TSW isn't actually that innovative, but NAME ANOTHER MMO THAT IS EVEN CLOSE TO BEING AS INNOVATIVE IN 2012?"
OK... I will...
Star Wars The Old Republic:
For all of its faults, SWTOR introduced some innovation in the MMO genre that is set to be repeated by other developers.
The story mode in SWTOR is innovative in as much as it goes a way to bringing truly choice-driven story and character progression to MMOs like never before. Whilst we can argue about how far it went (or didn't go, as the case may be), It went X distance and introduced something that no other developer has succeeded in doing before.
Guild Wars 2:
Guild Wars 2 offers a cross-class, cross player combo system that I have yet to see emulated in another MMO. The Elementalist, for example, can set fire on the floor, and any Ranger who fires through that will enjoy Fire Arrows that benefit from additional elemental damage.
The shielding system is also pretty innovative, allowing matial classes to use Shields to not only block incoming projectiles and other attacks from hitting them, but also anyone behind them.
Let's not forget that the weapon system has a direct relation to the skills and abilities your class has, and the weapon you use defines your game play in a way no other MMO has achieved. In addition, weapons are environment specific in some instances (such as weapons that can ONLY be used underwater).
Class specific innovation, such as the ability for thieves to steal items and abilities based on the items equipped by the class they attack. Another example of this is the ability for Elementalists to "switch stance" with a staff equipped, altering the spells provided by that weapon to a huge degree.
Another facet of the weapon system is the "environmentally aware" weapon abilites, where abilities will change and alter their effects based on a number of crtieria, including time of day, location, surrounding environment, etc. A weapon for example that may heal you during the day may alter at night to leach life from enemies, as opposed to healing for a percentage of damage. (This is interesting, because we've yet to see this working... but it's set to become a facet of end game itemisation).
The ability to switch weapons in combat, allowing for ranged player to apply specific abilities that are then complimented (and sometimes directly effected) by the melee abilities they switch to using at close range.
Dynamic events are a huge step forward from the Public Quest system first introduced in Warhammer Online. Dynamic events have, in some instances, multiple different non-linear progressions based on the input of the players at the event. In one instance, for example, you may succeed in repelling an enemy force which gives you access to a small hub, and progresses on to attacking the enemy stronghold. In another outcome of the same quest, players may fail to defend the small hub and then have to fight to take the hub back (instead of attacking the stronghold). At end game, dynamic events become far more ellaborate, and require larger groups of players to complete.
Guild Wars 2 world design is, without a doubt, the most stunning and impressive world design not just in the MMO genre, but in the gaming industry as a whole. The only other franchise that comes close to matching the sheer scale and scope of Guild Wars 2 is The Elder Scrolls. Cities are actual cities in size, the game world is actually huge and the designers and developers have gone to great lengths to deliver a truly organic environment, where transitions from one type of environment to another are natural progressions (rather than the "invisible lines" or loading screen we're used to in other games). Not only this, but the game has been seeded with a truly impressive number of NPCs, a simply addition that goes further than any other MMO in making the game world feel truly inhabited.
There are plenty more things on the list of things GW2 does for the MMO genre, but those are perhaps my favourites.
TERA:
Combat system. That's all that needs to be said, really.
Eve:
As far as technical innovation, the procedural time dilation system they implemented was perhaps the most innovative thing out of an MMO developer this year.
If you like stylised graphics, then GW2 may be "the one" for you.
However, I prefer realistic graphics, so TSW gets my vote in the graphics department without a shadow of a doubt. GW2 can't touch TSW on graphics and atmosphere, the only 2 contenders I would remotely consider would be AoC and Vanguard.
Cities may be large in GW2, but afaik they're not part of the "normal" game world. You have to zone-in to cities, don't you ?
A smooth progression from terrain in one area to another is not innovative in the least. It has been done before.
Having non-static NPC's in the world is not innovative, it has been done before. Perhaps having a "a lot more" could be considered innovative. Kind of.
(I won't critique your suggestions on combat mechanics, don't have enough personal experience of playing themeparks in the last few years. However, I have seen screenshots and playthroughs for most of them, so I can express an opinion on graphics and world features).
[mod edit]
Guild Wars 2 is a themepark like TSW is a themepark. I've played both. TSW is more of a themepark "game on rails" than Guild Wars 2, by a long... long... long way.
The point you are missing,[mod edit], is that Guild Wars 2 does it's game world and world design on a scale I have yet to see emulated in another MMO. MMOs were envisioned as online worlds for players to explore, and this is something that no developer - including Funcom - has managed to transition into the "age of themeparks". ArenaNet has gone a huge ways to bridging the gap, offering a similar crop of content to the typical "quest and progress" systems in existing MMOs (you know... like the one that drives you through EVERYTHING you do in TSW), and a more open sandbox for you to explore at your own pace.
TSW is JUST a typical MMO, and that will be reflected by the huge churn rate and lack of player retention you'll see reported in 3 months time.
And I WILL be here to say "I told you so".
This is how a GW2 dev used the word when talking about DEs.
"Are events an entirely brand-new system people have never seen before? No, they are not. They are our attempt to innovate on traditional concepts and elevate them to something different than what people have experienced before, while keeping alive enough of the old so that people feel comfortable with the system."
And you forgot "In my opinion"
And this is how I open my comments on the DEs:
"Dynamic events are a huge step forward from the Public Quest system first introduced in Warhammer Online. "
SEE WHAT I DID THERE?
So, basically, nothing new. Only new spins on old mechanics, like TSW.
For example, what we've been discussing is investigation missions aren't innnovative because puzzle quests aren't new. So, an evolved PQ isn't innovative.
Another, TERA's combat? Really? Action combat is defenatly not new.
Another, GW2's world design. How is it innovative in any shape or form? It's just a world. If you like the desig, cool, i like it too, but it's not innovative.
If those are your defenition os innovative, then yes, TSW is the most "new" mmo of the year.
True Rift and Trion Worlds did a great job of introducing DEs to the MMO community didn't they?