Originally posted by FadedbombIsn't there a way to change this mentality?
For this to change, everyone of us would have to take responsibility, not only for our actions, but also for our inactions. Of course that can be hard work.When you see someone throwing out harassing statements, slurs, you would have to challenge them. When they claim it was all in good fun, you'd have to explain to them that this isn't really funny for the affected person. When they claim you are just too sensitive, you would have to explain that in fact they are too insensitive.You may or may not get backup from your guild mates, which is also dependent on who's on at that time. You may even find yourself in the minority if you are arguing against someone and their friends are on and providing backup against you.You could even make it - right at that time - worse for the target of the slur by prolonging the debate and bringing more attention to it. Maybe the target of the remark has developed a thick skin and isn't bothered by it, and might even take offense at you butting in.Maybe you have been the target of slurs and attacks yourself and just are glad it isn't you this time. It gets even more complicated if the behavior isn't overtly hostile or intended that way, like the case the OP brings up. (Assuming he wasn't using "mentally handicapped" just as an attack himself) Would you make the effort of trying to explain to a mentally handicapped person that their behavior is inappropriate? I have let sexist and homophobic slurs slide, telling myself, it's all in good fun, everybody knows it's just a friendly tease, it's just a one-off remark, it wasn't directed at me, no one is speaking up, so no one is taking offense, I'm not gonna make any waves over one off-color remark, I don't want to argue against that guy and all his buddies, it's their guild after all.I guess I'm not always a good person when I could be.
I legitimately meant a "HandiCapped" individual whos physical age is 19 but has a mental maturity of about 9. Again, not his fault, but it is the fault of those surrounding him to allow his behavior to go unchecked. Just because someone is mentally handicapped doesn't mean they're completely inept and learning from their actions, and if they are completely incapable of learning from their actions they shouldn't be in said guild to begin with. Just my 2cents
I think it is typical for a 13-16 year old boy that just discovered he is interested in women and falls in love with every girl or woman that talks to him for more than 10 seconds. And believes they must be intersted in him.A 19 YO behaving like that is a bit childish for his age. But perhaps because he is very unlucky trying to find a gf in real life. And, in that case, he might think about that every day. Perhaps most women ignore him. And if someone actually is nice to him he believes she is the love of his life...But often they will grow up and start to behave like adults eventually. Calling someone like that "handicapped" could be a bit to much, IMO.In a game with a lot of players that are 12-19 YO boys it is not easy to avoid them. Perhaps it is normal?
Age is not the best factor to consider here. I know plenty of people 30+ that still act very immature while on the internet, in vent, or in game. Without any serious repercussions relating to their behaviors, age does automatically exclude anyone.
Ttere can be exeptions. But if someone behaves like a 13 YO boy he probably is. If it really is a 13 YO he only needs to grow up. If he is 30 he needs professional help.
If the game is intended for 12 YO and up I think it makes sense to belive it is a young boy. Unless there is a specific reason to believe it could be a 30 YO with personality problems. Because they are not the norm...
All I can say it that you should not assume that the behavior indicates the age. This kind of assumption that is at the root of the discussion here; that a character gender does not prove the person on the other end is the same and in some cases might be pretending otherwise for security purposes and or nefarious reasons.
Most gamers are older rather than younger. There are plenty of studies to prove that. Fewer 25 to 35 year old players would play Pokemon, or Hello Kitty I imagine, but then we are not discussing specific games. When you log into your average adult oriented MMO, meaning one that is geared for 18 years old or more, I wager we can assume most of the population are that age. In the subscription genre alone, some form of payment is required and I gather that at least some parents are paying attention to what their kids a playing online.
Few games are geared for 18 YO or more. Perhaps AoC...but I think a lot of people playing it are younger anyway. The truth is..a 13 YO behaving like a 30 YO is not normal and a 30 YO behaving like a 13 YO is also not normal.
When people grow up there are certain stages and behaviours that are typical for each stage. If someone behaves in a way that is very typical for a 13-15 YO it would not make sense to think that person is 30.
Someone falling in love with every woman and believing every woman/girl that talks to him is interested is normally a young person that just discovered he is interested in women. And if most women ignore him he will certainly fall in love with girls that talk to him and are nice to him. He might stick like glue to a girl like that and refuse to give up. Even if she tells him she already have a boy friend and that she is not interested he will refuse to believe it. For a 13-15 YO that is not uncommon. You will expect him to get over it and that he will behave normally and like an adult when he gets older. But a 30 YO behaving like that is far from normal and needs help. The 30 YO could be dangerous...but the 13-15 YO probably is not.
And in a MMORPG it is OK for men to play a female character and for women to play a male character. It is a roleplaying game. There can be several totally harmless reasons why someone would think that is cool. Sometimes it is not at all related to any evil intentions or to a strange personality.
Originally posted by Hurvart Originally posted by chefdiabloOriginally posted by HurvartOriginally posted by chefdiabloOriginally posted by HurvartOriginally posted by FadedbombOriginally posted by ButeoRegalisOriginally posted by FadedbombIsn't there a way to change this mentality?
For this to change, everyone of us would have to take responsibility, not only for our actions, but also for our inactions. Of course that can be hard work.When you see someone throwing out harassing statements, slurs, you would have to challenge them. When they claim it was all in good fun, you'd have to explain to them that this isn't really funny for the affected person. When they claim you are just too sensitive, you would have to explain that in fact they are too insensitive.You may or may not get backup from your guild mates, which is also dependent on who's on at that time. You may even find yourself in the minority if you are arguing against someone and their friends are on and providing backup against you.You could even make it - right at that time - worse for the target of the slur by prolonging the debate and bringing more attention to it. Maybe the target of the remark has developed a thick skin and isn't bothered by it, and might even take offense at you butting in.Maybe you have been the target of slurs and attacks yourself and just are glad it isn't you this time. It gets even more complicated if the behavior isn't overtly hostile or intended that way, like the case the OP brings up. (Assuming he wasn't using "mentally handicapped" just as an attack himself) Would you make the effort of trying to explain to a mentally handicapped person that their behavior is inappropriate? I have let sexist and homophobic slurs slide, telling myself, it's all in good fun, everybody knows it's just a friendly tease, it's just a one-off remark, it wasn't directed at me, no one is speaking up, so no one is taking offense, I'm not gonna make any waves over one off-color remark, I don't want to argue against that guy and all his buddies, it's their guild after all.I guess I'm not always a good person when I could be.I legitimately meant a "HandiCapped" individual whos physical age is 19 but has a mental maturity of about 9. Again, not his fault, but it is the fault of those surrounding him to allow his behavior to go unchecked. Just because someone is mentally handicapped doesn't mean they're completely inept and learning from their actions, and if they are completely incapable of learning from their actions they shouldn't be in said guild to begin with. Just my 2cents I think it is typical for a 13-16 year old boy that just discovered he is interested in women and falls in love with every girl or woman that talks to him for more than 10 seconds. And believes they must be intersted in him.A 19 YO behaving like that is a bit childish for his age. But perhaps because he is very unlucky trying to find a gf in real life. And, in that case, he might think about that every day. Perhaps most women ignore him. And if someone actually is nice to him he believes she is the love of his life...But often they will grow up and start to behave like adults eventually. Calling someone like that "handicapped" could be a bit to much, IMO.In a game with a lot of players that are 12-19 YO boys it is not easy to avoid them. Perhaps it is normal?Age is not the best factor to consider here. I know plenty of people 30+ that still act very immature while on the internet, in vent, or in game. Without any serious repercussions relating to their behaviors, age does automatically exclude anyone.Ttere can be exeptions. But if someone behaves like a 13 YO boy he probably is. If it really is a 13 YO he only needs to grow up. If he is 30 he needs professional help.If the game is intended for 12 YO and up I think it makes sense to belive it is a young boy. Unless there is a specific reason to believe it could be a 30 YO with personality problems. Because they are not the norm...All I can say it that you should not assume that the behavior indicates the age. This kind of assumption that is at the root of the discussion here; that a character gender does not prove the person on the other end is the same and in some cases might be pretending otherwise for security purposes and or nefarious reasons. Most gamers are older rather than younger. There are plenty of studies to prove that. Fewer 25 to 35 year old players would play Pokemon, or Hello Kitty I imagine, but then we are not discussing specific games. When you log into your average adult oriented MMO, meaning one that is geared for 18 years old or more, I wager we can assume most of the population are that age. In the subscription genre alone, some form of payment is required and I gather that at least some parents are paying attention to what their kids a playing online.Few games are geared for 18 YO or more. Perhaps AoC...but I think a lot of people playing it are younger anyway. The truth is..a 13 YO behaving like a 30 YO is not normal and a 30 YO behaving like a 13 YO is also not normal.
When people grow up there are certain stages and behaviours that are typical for each stage. If someone behaves in a way that is very typical for a 13-15 YO it would not make sense to think that person is 30.
Someone falling in love with every woman and believing every woman/girl that talks to him is interested is normally a young person that just discovered he is interested in women. And if most women ignore him he will certainly fall in love with girls that talk to him and are nice to him. He might stick like glue to a girl like that and refuse to give up. Even if she tells him she already have a boy friend and that she is not interested he will refuse to believe it. For a 13-15 YO that is not uncommon. You will expect him to get over it and that he will behave normally and like an adult when he gets older. But a 30 YO behaving like that is far from normal and needs help. The 30 YO could be dangerous...but the 13-15 YO probably is not.
And in a MMORPG it is OK for men to play a female character and for women to play a male character. It is a roleplaying game. There can be several totally harmless reasons why someone would think that is cool. Sometimes it is not at all related to any evil intentions or to a strange personality.
I think we are talking about two slightly different things here. Falling in love with a woman online as an adolescent is a tragic maturity flaw if this happens much at all. On that we can agree. What I am mostly referring to is that men in general talk about women and to women in games with little to no respect. This is not the case for everyone of course, but if you read enough chat or were to witness the whispers that some characters get your view would broaden from discussing 13 year old kids to a larger range of ages.
During my experiment while playing a female character I had some condescending remarks made about how to play the game as well as some very negative remarks scripted as jokes but in some cases they could be considered to be insults. Along with some of this I also had a couple of innocent flirts. Whether you want to believe or not, adult men can be just as rude and insulting as any 13 year old. Being called names even while role playing a female character was still surprising painful.
I can't force a judgement on what you determine to be adult content of a game. I believe any game that has violence, blood, alcohol, and tobacco references to be adult themed content. If parents allow their children to play these games without paying any attention whatsoever that is their business. My children would however be reasonably supervised while playing online games adult themed or not.
Can we assume that any woman can make the decision to obsscure their identity even though they might, in the moment, feel comfortable dressnig in very short "shorts"?
No. I think that is quite an assumption.
Most girls who dress in very short "shorts" do so seeking attention. So to think they would avoid it online is odd.
I think you are dealing with two different personality types.
Try being stalked by some guy trying to find out who you are and where you live. Try getting threats of bodily harm because you don't want to scew them. Yeah try being a woman today. It is actually worse now that it was 10-15 years ago. Most of the younger generation have utterly no respect for women
Originally posted by Atlan99 Originally posted by SovrathCan we assume that any woman can make the decision to obsscure their identity even though they might, in the moment, feel comfortable dressnig in very short "shorts"?
No. I think that is quite an assumption.
Most girls who dress in very short "shorts" do so seeking attention. So to think they would avoid it online is odd.
I think you are dealing with two different personality types.
This is an interesting point. Running around with an avatar does not immediately change how the real life person feels.
If I am playing a male character and suddenly found my wardrobe choices were to be spandex with some sort of bulge in the front and bouncing buttocks I would quickly ditch that character and choose a female or another class that I am more comfortable playing. I am not surprised at all that women might feel the same way.
1st i dont think gender is relevant in mmorpg envoirement. Why should i care if the ppl i play online is a man, woman or whatever?
For me each one are a person with a personality, it can be nice, moron, polite, rude, friendly, agressive, etc. And this as nothing to do with gender.
When i meet someone in a mmo i never, ever ask his gender, i really dont care. Its a gamer like me, we play a game together, nothing more, so gender is really not important.
Its because the internet is anonymous, and the companies running these games take no real responsibility for the actions of the people playin the games.
These games need to be moderated. It is the only way to stop it. We used to police each other, but now that everything is a single player game with a chat box, there are very few reasons to care if you are kicked out of your guild.
Its far worse from what I can see than it ever has been, and it's only going to continue to get worse. No one is punished for anything anymore. IRL or In game. There are no consequences.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Online communities are communities nonetheless and you are bound to run into discrimination. It might even be more prominent in gaming communities because of the anonymity of players. I think that's the biggest factor behind females with male avatars. Still, it's not uncommon for females to enjoy playing male characters for much simpler reasons. I don't think girls playing guys or guys playing girls warrants any real concern. The discrimination of course will most likely always be an issue because that's just people's personality and short of banning every douchebag, I don't see a way to 'cure' that mmo disease.
#TeamVainlash Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...
Online communities are communities nonetheless and you are bound to run into discrimination. It might even be more prominent in gaming communities because of the anonymity of players. I think that's the biggest factor behind females with male avatars. Still, it's not uncommon for females to enjoy playing male characters for much simpler reasons. I don't think girls playing guys or guys playing girls warrants any real concern. The discrimination of course will most likely always be an issue because that's just people's personality and short of banning every douchebag, I don't see a way to 'cure' that mmo disease.
I read all your posts in David Duchovny's voice.... >.>
Online communities are communities nonetheless and you are bound to run into discrimination. It might even be more prominent in gaming communities because of the anonymity of players. I think that's the biggest factor behind females with male avatars. Still, it's not uncommon for females to enjoy playing male characters for much simpler reasons. I don't think girls playing guys or guys playing girls warrants any real concern. The discrimination of course will most likely always be an issue because that's just people's personality and short of banning every douchebag, I don't see a way to 'cure' that mmo disease.
I read all your posts in David Duchovny's voice.... >.>
That's funny because I write them in his voice....
#TeamVainlash Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...
I know several women who play online, and conceal their gender not out of fear, but out of annoyance. As one told me once, imagine the tedium of speaking on your mic only to be bombarded with the same stupid comments over and over and over. It's like having a last name that's easy to make 1st grade jokes about, every joke and every pun done to death. My friends are quite capable of defending themselves online without me needing to activate chivalry mode and be their verbal shield, they're just tired of having to do it. They don't log in to Team Fortress 2 to get in arguments or point out what bigotted idiots people are being, they log in to shoot people same as any of us.
It doesn't help that many well-meaning developers are conditioned to cater to the lowest denominator. I never thought I'd be a champion for such a concept, but many games do objectify women. And my female gamer friends have told me, it's hard to take a game seriously when the female characters strut around in chainmail bikinis and stilletto heels. It's as jarring to them as logging in to a reasonably realistic WW2 shooter to find all the GIs dressed like male strippers, digging in to their bannana hammocks for reloads for their M1 Garands. There are certainly cartoonish games around where ridiculous female characters make sense, but how many games include women with small breasts, bland faces, and non-hourglass figures? Many games have refreshingly fought this trend, but I think as long as it exists it will encourage people to associate anything female in a videogame with a very unfortunate stereotype.
I'd like to challenge any Guild/Clan/Group that currently exist to openly discourage such behavior even if said members "don't know any better". Specifically, my younger sister currently plays WoW & has to deal with a mentally handicapped member who sticks to her like glue constantly, and gets physically upset on the guild ventrilo (thereby completely embarassing her) when she's not playing with said member. Seriously, I'm all for treating handicapped people with a little less restrictiveness, but that would anger me to the point of yelling should it ever occur in my current guild. If she had hidden her identity as a female it could have all been avoided, however she would have lost out of the ability to truly express herself for who she is thereby demeaning her experience as a whole....and that's the ENTIRE problem!
Am I simply rambling here because I'm a little loopy from Monday-Morning Work, or is anyone else feeling the same way :I?
TLDR;
I'm pissed off because the current paradigm is that it's ok for Woman to have to hide their identity while playing online simply because the need is there. Why the hell is it acceptable to allow situations that force this kind of preasure thereby spawning the need to begin with? I don't think it's ever ok for a situation to arrise that warrants being forced to hide who & what you are simply because others are ok with said situations happening. Isn't there a way to change this mentality?
ps: I've been around for awhile so I very well know that it's been this way for some time, but in my book that doesn't make it right seeing as how it's 2012 already!
I don't think female gamers have it much worse than the guys. No matter what gender you are, if you want to play MMOs while avoiding the asshats, you are going to have to be selective of the people you play with. There are lots of guilds that won't tolerate the kind of stuff you describe, I say let the immature jerk guilds be themselves and move on.
Also, I've had an experience similar to your sister's with an extremely overly attached guildmate, thats not just a problem women have and hiding her gender may not have changed anything. Sometimes just being polite and helpful to someone who maybe isn't used to it is enough. I don't know how you expect the guild to deal with that situation either, its really on her to decide if the problem is ruining her game experience and if so to do something about it, not really fair (IMO) to ask a GL to step into something like that.
I know several women who play online, and conceal their gender not out of fear, but out of annoyance. As one told me once, imagine the tedium of speaking on your mic only to be bombarded with the same stupid comments over and over and over. It's like having a last name that's easy to make 1st grade jokes about, every joke and every pun done to death. My friends are quite capable of defending themselves online without me needing to activate chivalry mode and be their verbal shield, they're just tired of having to do it. They don't log in to Team Fortress 2 to get in arguments or point out what bigotted idiots people are being, they log in to shoot people same as any of us.
It doesn't help that many well-meaning developers are conditioned to cater to the lowest denominator. I never thought I'd be a champion for such a concept, but many games do objectify women. And my female gamer friends have told me, it's hard to take a game seriously when the female characters strut around in chainmail bikinis and stilletto heels. It's as jarring to them as logging in to a reasonably realistic WW2 shooter to find all the GIs dressed like male strippers, digging in to their bannana hammocks for reloads for their M1 Garands. There are certainly cartoonish games around where ridiculous female characters make sense, but how many games include women with small breasts, bland faces, and non-hourglass figures? Many games have refreshingly fought this trend, but I think as long as it exists it will encourage people to associate anything female in a videogame with a very unfortunate stereotype.
It will only be a problem if they are forced to look like that in game. If there are other options everything is fine. You should be able to look anyway you want. Regardless if you are a man or a woman....
Male characters that are fit and muscular with a six pack are also objectyfied. Men that have small muscles or that are not very fit can feel really bad looking at them. Often he will feel that he is not good enough and that he needs to look like that to be accepted. Some start to starve themselves, some start to use drugs like steroids and some get obsessed and train much more than the body can endure. Some men die because of that.... For men its not only games. Ads, movies and TV-shows makes them think they need to look like that stereotype. You will see those muscular and fit guys everywhere in media. But few men really look like that. And its very painful to maintain that look also. Perfect strict diet, lots of training and sometimes drugs will be needed. Its not normal or very healthy for most ordinary men.
But as long as there are other options it will be OK if its possible to look like that in a game. If you are forced to look like a "perfect" man or woman it is a problem.
I know several women who play online, and conceal their gender not out of fear, but out of annoyance. As one told me once, imagine the tedium of speaking on your mic only to be bombarded with the same stupid comments over and over and over. It's like having a last name that's easy to make 1st grade jokes about, every joke and every pun done to death. My friends are quite capable of defending themselves online without me needing to activate chivalry mode and be their verbal shield, they're just tired of having to do it. They don't log in to Team Fortress 2 to get in arguments or point out what bigotted idiots people are being, they log in to shoot people same as any of us.
It doesn't help that many well-meaning developers are conditioned to cater to the lowest denominator. I never thought I'd be a champion for such a concept, but many games do objectify women. And my female gamer friends have told me, it's hard to take a game seriously when the female characters strut around in chainmail bikinis and stilletto heels. It's as jarring to them as logging in to a reasonably realistic WW2 shooter to find all the GIs dressed like male strippers, digging in to their bannana hammocks for reloads for their M1 Garands. There are certainly cartoonish games around where ridiculous female characters make sense, but how many games include women with small breasts, bland faces, and non-hourglass figures? Many games have refreshingly fought this trend, but I think as long as it exists it will encourage people to associate anything female in a videogame with a very unfortunate stereotype.
It will only be a problem if they are forced to look like that in game. If there are other options everything is fine. You should be able to look anyway you want. Regardless if you are a man or a woman....
Male characters that are fit and muscular with a six pack are also objectyfied. Men that have small muscles or that are not very fit can feel really bad looking at them. Often he will feel that he is not good enough and that he needs to look like that to be accepted. Some start to starve themselves, some start to use drugs like steroids and some get obsessed and train much more than the body can endure. Some men die because of that.... For men its not only games. Ads, movies and TV-shows makes them think they need to look like that stereotype. You will see those muscular and fit guys everywhere in media. But few men really look like that. And its very painful to maintain that look also. Perfect strict diet, lots of training and sometimes drugs will be needed. Its not normal or very healthy for most ordinary men.
But as long as there are other options it will be OK if its possible to look like that in a game. If you are forced to look like a "perfect" man or woman it is a problem.
I wouldn't exactly compare the relation between male players/male characters and female players/female characters, because they are perceived very differently. Even if the male player has some discomfort with muscular characters, muscular (or at least well fit) male characters can be perceived as a "goal" and in a realm where you must play as a strong character, playing as a muscular character is more fitting. Where as Female Characters are often portrayed as borderline sluts which, while pleasing to certain males' eyes, may not exactly please female players because looking like a hypersexualized 14 years old isn't exactly a "goal" shared by many. That, and bikini chainmails + stilleto heels doesn't offer much in terms of protection.
Why the hell is it acceptable to allow situations that force this kind of preasure thereby spawning the need to begin with? I don't think it's ever ok for a situation to arrise that warrants being forced to hide who & what you are simply because others are ok with said situations happening. Isn't there a way to change this mentality?
I really dislike the logic involved with "why are these situation allowed?" You really need to be asking "can this be forbidden?" or less strictly "should this be forbidden?" When you actually think about what it takes to forbid these siuations in a free form environment like Vent. Then you come up with some of the answers that have already been given like finding a mature group to play with etc. But using a passive verb like allowed implies that there is someone to blame that isn't the direct perpatrator. It just sounds false.
"I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob
I look for two clauses: " 18+" and "no drama" when joining guilds. As one would expect, I've never encountered the OP's type of situation. Females were respected and treated nearly as equal as males (let's face it, they're still a novelty in some games).
I don't want to get into the age debate, but emotional maturity is key across the board. Some people are just damaged, or plain underdeveloped.
The only thing that is key to me when looking for a new guild is the "no drama". Everything else is either irrelivant or is just a different way to state the "no drama" clause.
in responce to the OP:
I treat everyone I meet online, whether it be in a forum or in game, with respect. In all honesty, I could care less if the person I'm in a party is "really a girl" or not. I tend to play female charactors myself, not because I'm looking to get free handouts from some lonely/horny guy. But because if I'm going to be looking at pixels for hours, they should be cute pixels. XD I've avoided games that have gender locked classes for that reason alone. Almost all the male characters in games (generally) tend to be super macho, muscle bound, knuckel draggers and the female characters (again, generally) tend to be huge breasted, skimpy clothes wearing, over sexualized. If you want to change how people think about the sexes then first: change these repellant steriotypes. Don't play games that use these models. If fewer people play games with those steriotypes, fewer will be produced. Doing that alone wont change how people think and react to each other, but it's a start...
I've never felt the need to hide my identity, but I've never gotten deeply involved in an MMO before. My female friends that have, have a lot of horror stories and do tend to hide that they're female just to ignore the creepy PMs. More importantly, though, it's the rampant misogyny the gaming community often expresses that keeps female gamers from "coming out of the closet". Not harassment on the personal level but feeling like we are completely unwelcome in a community we have every right to be a part of and influence.
(BTW, Guys, flirting with someone online the moment you find out they're female just ain't cool, it's weird and it's creepy.)
If I have any word of advice it's just to remember that we're a quiet but growing minority and we're just as hardcore gamers as you. The gaming industry is in a lot of financial trouble right now, so maybe scaring away big bucks for the industry isn't the smartest idea the gaming community has ever cooked up.
Huge kudos to OP, hope the trend will be towards continued better treatment of women in MMORPGs. There's a lot more of us than you realize.
find a good long-term guild with like-minded individuals and stick with them! communities are much more tolerable when you give up on the "game community" and focus on your "guild community." none of the women i game with hide their gender and none of them express issues with it!
it can be tough finding a good gaming community to match your individual needs, but there are a lot of good groups out there and in time i feel anyone can do so if they actively try! doing so alleviates so much of the stress in dealing with online communities.
Originally posted by Trionicus Here in FL there are a million Megan Fox's (pre surgery) running around in the shortest shorts ever. They don't seem to mind the attention or any other problems that might accompany skimpy clothing. So I don't see why they would hide their gender online for any sexually related harassment. And IRL report and block have serious delay issues. Another thing is that females are not respected as group leaders and their opinions about tactics are quickly dismissed by male gamers. Could be that remaining relevant and respected in that way is a primary and legit concern.
Come to think of it, I've never once met a female Raid Leader. The hell :I?
I've had 4 in my 14 years of mmo playing, I also play with several females. NONE of them "hide" their identity / gender, most people just don't believe them when they are honest about it.
I find this topic to be distasteful, though you seem to be on the side that women shouldn't NEED to hide their identity you are making a lot of generalizations and you have a lot of opinions that are simply personal and not true for everyone.
Why the hell is it acceptable to allow situations that force this kind of preasure thereby spawning the need to begin with? I don't think it's ever ok for a situation to arrise that warrants being forced to hide who & what you are simply because others are ok with said situations happening. Isn't there a way to change this mentality?
I really dislike the logic involved with "why are these situation allowed?" You really need to be asking "can this be forbidden?" or less strictly "should this be forbidden?" When you actually think about what it takes to forbid these siuations in a free form environment like Vent. Then you come up with some of the answers that have already been given like finding a mature group to play with etc. But using a passive verb like allowed implies that there is someone to blame that isn't the direct perpatrator. It just sounds false.
My god this is one of the only things i have seen written in this thread that actually shows any brainpower involved. Thank you so god damn much for this. All i see is everyone clucking about who is to blame or how thier personal experience is x or y. And of course calls for censorship (which is the most disturbing aspect). The only other people worthy of any respect on this thread have been those basically saying "Who cares? Ive learned to deal with other humans who i dont care for by not putting up with thier BS."
On another somewhat related note: You women complaining about how guys treat you with no respect. Guess what? Most guys dont treat each other with much respect. You think your a special case because your harrased over being an object of sexual desire or demeaned due to your physical aesthetic limitations? The grass is no greener on the other side. The only reason that men arent as affected by taunts about how they look is because most of us are aware that we kind of look like garbage in the first place and have long ago accepted it. And besides, you women will sleep with hideous guys anyway, so it doesnt really matter how we look so much. In fact we are often harrassed by both men and women over our inability to attract women (whether its the case or not) and yet i dont hear alot from guys asking for censorship on the matter.
You want to hit a guy where it hurts? Just call him creepy. Surprisingly it has a pretty big impact for being so tame. Women will sleep with ugly, or a jerk (alot of you prefer jerks), or idiots. But women dont usually sleep with creepy and most guys know this.
Why the hell is it acceptable to allow situations that force this kind of preasure thereby spawning the need to begin with? I don't think it's ever ok for a situation to arrise that warrants being forced to hide who & what you are simply because others are ok with said situations happening. Isn't there a way to change this mentality?
I really dislike the logic involved with "why are these situation allowed?" You really need to be asking "can this be forbidden?" or less strictly "should this be forbidden?" When you actually think about what it takes to forbid these siuations in a free form environment like Vent. Then you come up with some of the answers that have already been given like finding a mature group to play with etc. But using a passive verb like allowed implies that there is someone to blame that isn't the direct perpatrator. It just sounds false.
My god this is one of the only things i have seen written in this thread that actually shows any brainpower involved. Thank you so god damn much for this. All i see is everyone clucking about who is to blame or how thier personal experience is x or y. And of course calls for censorship (which is the most disturbing aspect). The only other people worthy of any respect on this thread have been those basically saying "Who cares? Ive learned to deal with other humans who i dont care for by not putting up with thier BS."
On another somewhat related note: You women complaining about how guys treat you with no respect. Guess what? Most guys dont treat each other with much respect. You think your a special case because your harrased over being an object of sexual desire or demeaned due to your physical aesthetic limitations? The grass is no greener on the other side. The only reason that men arent as affected by taunts about how they look is because most of us are aware that we kind of look like garbage in the first place and have long ago accepted it. And besides, you women will sleep with hideous guys anyway, so it doesnt really matter how we look so much. In fact we are often harrassed by both men and women over our inability to attract women (whether its the case or not) and yet i dont hear alot from guys asking for censorship on the matter.
You want to hit a guy where it hurts? Just call him creepy. Surprisingly it has a pretty big impact for being so tame. Women will sleep with ugly, or a jerk (alot of you prefer jerks), or idiots. But women dont usually sleep with creepy and most guys know this.
You're kind of creepy.
Honestly you're generalizing. A lot of the talk here has NOT been in support of censorship. Yeah, in a lot of cases female gamers just need to toughen up. But you also see a lot of vitriol and misogyny and "you aren't welcome here", racism, homophobia, etc.
It's not moral, and it shouldn't be considered acceptable. That's not the same as saying it should be censored. I think we can all agree that sexism/racism/homophobia are *bad*.
Honestly you're generalizing. A lot of the talk here has NOT been in support of censorship. Yeah, in a lot of cases female gamers just need to toughen up. But you also see a lot of vitriol and misogyny and "you aren't welcome here", racism, homophobia, etc.
It's not moral, and it shouldn't be considered acceptable. That's not the same as saying it should be censored. I think we can all agree that sexism/racism/homophobia are *bad*.
Any attempt at 'gamers are mature' argument is shot down by this simple kickstarter.
The amount of hate she got is just beyond mind-boggling. There were lots of people that donated because of the trolls and the media attention that generated so not ALL gamers are 'bad'.
I honestly can't imagine how brave someone has to be to go through what she has and still go ahead with the project.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I find that I hide my identity online not because of harassment reasons but simply because it lets me get into the roleplaying aspect more. I actually consider myself to have three different aspects. In Character, Out of Character, and Real Life.
I do everything I can to keep the three separate. My Out of Character sometimes will be the same gender and sometimes won't. My In character is the same way. My characters though I generally set up to look as close to my ideal as the games will allow and even my gear tends to go in that direction (though obviously I want to be well geared, if I have a choice between two roughly equal gears, I'm going to take the one that I like better).
That doesn't mean I'll wear skimpy clothing either. If anything, I prefer more clothing on my characters, but at the same time, I like non-restrictive appearing clothing. Which generally ends up with knee high socks, a pair of pants and long sleeved clothing.
Oddly, I like my female characters to look fairly masculine and my male characters to look fairly feminine...
But again, it isn't about harrassment, it is personal preference. I think every person differs though. I'm more of a serious gamer. A hardcore gamer and a casual player will almost certainly have a different opinion on the matter. Hardcore gamers would probably just consider harassment as part of playing online. I know I used to think that way when I was one. A casual player would probably consider harassment a much bigger issue.
As long males see women as sex objects and also not as equals you will always have this behavior by majority of males young or mature in RL or online im affraid, thats at moment a fact of live.
Unless we change the whole tradition and culture we will keep seeing this for next couple of hundred years we humans are still very child like race not matured enough give it time and hopefully we solve this MAJOR problem MEN vs WOMEN that there EQUAL.
It will prolly take another couple of hundred years before women are truely equal to men. Women themslefs are also to blame but thats another discussion not relevant here right now.
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Comments
Few games are geared for 18 YO or more. Perhaps AoC...but I think a lot of people playing it are younger anyway. The truth is..a 13 YO behaving like a 30 YO is not normal and a 30 YO behaving like a 13 YO is also not normal.
When people grow up there are certain stages and behaviours that are typical for each stage. If someone behaves in a way that is very typical for a 13-15 YO it would not make sense to think that person is 30.
Someone falling in love with every woman and believing every woman/girl that talks to him is interested is normally a young person that just discovered he is interested in women. And if most women ignore him he will certainly fall in love with girls that talk to him and are nice to him. He might stick like glue to a girl like that and refuse to give up. Even if she tells him she already have a boy friend and that she is not interested he will refuse to believe it. For a 13-15 YO that is not uncommon. You will expect him to get over it and that he will behave normally and like an adult when he gets older. But a 30 YO behaving like that is far from normal and needs help. The 30 YO could be dangerous...but the 13-15 YO probably is not.
And in a MMORPG it is OK for men to play a female character and for women to play a male character. It is a roleplaying game. There can be several totally harmless reasons why someone would think that is cool. Sometimes it is not at all related to any evil intentions or to a strange personality.
I legitimately meant a "HandiCapped" individual whos physical age is 19 but has a mental maturity of about 9. Again, not his fault, but it is the fault of those surrounding him to allow his behavior to go unchecked. Just because someone is mentally handicapped doesn't mean they're completely inept and learning from their actions, and if they are completely incapable of learning from their actions they shouldn't be in said guild to begin with. Just my 2cents
I think it is typical for a 13-16 year old boy that just discovered he is interested in women and falls in love with every girl or woman that talks to him for more than 10 seconds. And believes they must be intersted in him. A 19 YO behaving like that is a bit childish for his age. But perhaps because he is very unlucky trying to find a gf in real life. And, in that case, he might think about that every day. Perhaps most women ignore him. And if someone actually is nice to him he believes she is the love of his life...But often they will grow up and start to behave like adults eventually. Calling someone like that "handicapped" could be a bit to much, IMO. In a game with a lot of players that are 12-19 YO boys it is not easy to avoid them. Perhaps it is normal?
Age is not the best factor to consider here. I know plenty of people 30+ that still act very immature while on the internet, in vent, or in game. Without any serious repercussions relating to their behaviors, age does automatically exclude anyone.
Ttere can be exeptions. But if someone behaves like a 13 YO boy he probably is. If it really is a 13 YO he only needs to grow up. If he is 30 he needs professional help. If the game is intended for 12 YO and up I think it makes sense to belive it is a young boy. Unless there is a specific reason to believe it could be a 30 YO with personality problems. Because they are not the norm...
All I can say it that you should not assume that the behavior indicates the age. This kind of assumption that is at the root of the discussion here; that a character gender does not prove the person on the other end is the same and in some cases might be pretending otherwise for security purposes and or nefarious reasons. Most gamers are older rather than younger. There are plenty of studies to prove that. Fewer 25 to 35 year old players would play Pokemon, or Hello Kitty I imagine, but then we are not discussing specific games. When you log into your average adult oriented MMO, meaning one that is geared for 18 years old or more, I wager we can assume most of the population are that age. In the subscription genre alone, some form of payment is required and I gather that at least some parents are paying attention to what their kids a playing online.
Few games are geared for 18 YO or more. Perhaps AoC...but I think a lot of people playing it are younger anyway. The truth is..a 13 YO behaving like a 30 YO is not normal and a 30 YO behaving like a 13 YO is also not normal.
When people grow up there are certain stages and behaviours that are typical for each stage. If someone behaves in a way that is very typical for a 13-15 YO it would not make sense to think that person is 30.
Someone falling in love with every woman and believing every woman/girl that talks to him is interested is normally a young person that just discovered he is interested in women. And if most women ignore him he will certainly fall in love with girls that talk to him and are nice to him. He might stick like glue to a girl like that and refuse to give up. Even if she tells him she already have a boy friend and that she is not interested he will refuse to believe it. For a 13-15 YO that is not uncommon. You will expect him to get over it and that he will behave normally and like an adult when he gets older. But a 30 YO behaving like that is far from normal and needs help. The 30 YO could be dangerous...but the 13-15 YO probably is not.
And in a MMORPG it is OK for men to play a female character and for women to play a male character. It is a roleplaying game. There can be several totally harmless reasons why someone would think that is cool. Sometimes it is not at all related to any evil intentions or to a strange personality.
I think we are talking about two slightly different things here. Falling in love with a woman online as an adolescent is a tragic maturity flaw if this happens much at all. On that we can agree. What I am mostly referring to is that men in general talk about women and to women in games with little to no respect. This is not the case for everyone of course, but if you read enough chat or were to witness the whispers that some characters get your view would broaden from discussing 13 year old kids to a larger range of ages.
During my experiment while playing a female character I had some condescending remarks made about how to play the game as well as some very negative remarks scripted as jokes but in some cases they could be considered to be insults. Along with some of this I also had a couple of innocent flirts. Whether you want to believe or not, adult men can be just as rude and insulting as any 13 year old. Being called names even while role playing a female character was still surprising painful.
I can't force a judgement on what you determine to be adult content of a game. I believe any game that has violence, blood, alcohol, and tobacco references to be adult themed content. If parents allow their children to play these games without paying any attention whatsoever that is their business. My children would however be reasonably supervised while playing online games adult themed or not.
No. I think that is quite an assumption.
Most girls who dress in very short "shorts" do so seeking attention. So to think they would avoid it online is odd.
I think you are dealing with two different personality types.
Try being stalked by some guy trying to find out who you are and where you live. Try getting threats of bodily harm because you don't want to scew them. Yeah try being a woman today. It is actually worse now that it was 10-15 years ago. Most of the younger generation have utterly no respect for women
Most girls who dress in very short "shorts" do so seeking attention. So to think they would avoid it online is odd.
I think you are dealing with two different personality types.
This is an interesting point. Running around with an avatar does not immediately change how the real life person feels.
If I am playing a male character and suddenly found my wardrobe choices were to be spandex with some sort of bulge in the front and bouncing buttocks I would quickly ditch that character and choose a female or another class that I am more comfortable playing. I am not surprised at all that women might feel the same way.
This. Gender is not important.
Its because the internet is anonymous, and the companies running these games take no real responsibility for the actions of the people playin the games.
These games need to be moderated. It is the only way to stop it. We used to police each other, but now that everything is a single player game with a chat box, there are very few reasons to care if you are kicked out of your guild.
Its far worse from what I can see than it ever has been, and it's only going to continue to get worse. No one is punished for anything anymore. IRL or In game. There are no consequences.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Online communities are communities nonetheless and you are bound to run into discrimination. It might even be more prominent in gaming communities because of the anonymity of players. I think that's the biggest factor behind females with male avatars. Still, it's not uncommon for females to enjoy playing male characters for much simpler reasons. I don't think girls playing guys or guys playing girls warrants any real concern. The discrimination of course will most likely always be an issue because that's just people's personality and short of banning every douchebag, I don't see a way to 'cure' that mmo disease.
#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...
I read all your posts in David Duchovny's voice.... >.>
My theme song.
That's funny because I write them in his voice....
#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...
I know several women who play online, and conceal their gender not out of fear, but out of annoyance. As one told me once, imagine the tedium of speaking on your mic only to be bombarded with the same stupid comments over and over and over. It's like having a last name that's easy to make 1st grade jokes about, every joke and every pun done to death. My friends are quite capable of defending themselves online without me needing to activate chivalry mode and be their verbal shield, they're just tired of having to do it. They don't log in to Team Fortress 2 to get in arguments or point out what bigotted idiots people are being, they log in to shoot people same as any of us.
It doesn't help that many well-meaning developers are conditioned to cater to the lowest denominator. I never thought I'd be a champion for such a concept, but many games do objectify women. And my female gamer friends have told me, it's hard to take a game seriously when the female characters strut around in chainmail bikinis and stilletto heels. It's as jarring to them as logging in to a reasonably realistic WW2 shooter to find all the GIs dressed like male strippers, digging in to their bannana hammocks for reloads for their M1 Garands. There are certainly cartoonish games around where ridiculous female characters make sense, but how many games include women with small breasts, bland faces, and non-hourglass figures? Many games have refreshingly fought this trend, but I think as long as it exists it will encourage people to associate anything female in a videogame with a very unfortunate stereotype.
I don't think female gamers have it much worse than the guys. No matter what gender you are, if you want to play MMOs while avoiding the asshats, you are going to have to be selective of the people you play with. There are lots of guilds that won't tolerate the kind of stuff you describe, I say let the immature jerk guilds be themselves and move on.
Also, I've had an experience similar to your sister's with an extremely overly attached guildmate, thats not just a problem women have and hiding her gender may not have changed anything. Sometimes just being polite and helpful to someone who maybe isn't used to it is enough. I don't know how you expect the guild to deal with that situation either, its really on her to decide if the problem is ruining her game experience and if so to do something about it, not really fair (IMO) to ask a GL to step into something like that.
It will only be a problem if they are forced to look like that in game. If there are other options everything is fine. You should be able to look anyway you want. Regardless if you are a man or a woman....
Male characters that are fit and muscular with a six pack are also objectyfied. Men that have small muscles or that are not very fit can feel really bad looking at them. Often he will feel that he is not good enough and that he needs to look like that to be accepted. Some start to starve themselves, some start to use drugs like steroids and some get obsessed and train much more than the body can endure. Some men die because of that.... For men its not only games. Ads, movies and TV-shows makes them think they need to look like that stereotype. You will see those muscular and fit guys everywhere in media. But few men really look like that. And its very painful to maintain that look also. Perfect strict diet, lots of training and sometimes drugs will be needed. Its not normal or very healthy for most ordinary men.
But as long as there are other options it will be OK if its possible to look like that in a game. If you are forced to look like a "perfect" man or woman it is a problem.
I wouldn't exactly compare the relation between male players/male characters and female players/female characters, because they are perceived very differently. Even if the male player has some discomfort with muscular characters, muscular (or at least well fit) male characters can be perceived as a "goal" and in a realm where you must play as a strong character, playing as a muscular character is more fitting. Where as Female Characters are often portrayed as borderline sluts which, while pleasing to certain males' eyes, may not exactly please female players because looking like a hypersexualized 14 years old isn't exactly a "goal" shared by many. That, and bikini chainmails + stilleto heels doesn't offer much in terms of protection.
I really dislike the logic involved with "why are these situation allowed?" You really need to be asking "can this be forbidden?" or less strictly "should this be forbidden?" When you actually think about what it takes to forbid these siuations in a free form environment like Vent. Then you come up with some of the answers that have already been given like finding a mature group to play with etc. But using a passive verb like allowed implies that there is someone to blame that isn't the direct perpatrator. It just sounds false.
"I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob
The only thing that is key to me when looking for a new guild is the "no drama". Everything else is either irrelivant or is just a different way to state the "no drama" clause.
in responce to the OP:
I treat everyone I meet online, whether it be in a forum or in game, with respect. In all honesty, I could care less if the person I'm in a party is "really a girl" or not. I tend to play female charactors myself, not because I'm looking to get free handouts from some lonely/horny guy. But because if I'm going to be looking at pixels for hours, they should be cute pixels. XD I've avoided games that have gender locked classes for that reason alone. Almost all the male characters in games (generally) tend to be super macho, muscle bound, knuckel draggers and the female characters (again, generally) tend to be huge breasted, skimpy clothes wearing, over sexualized. If you want to change how people think about the sexes then first: change these repellant steriotypes. Don't play games that use these models. If fewer people play games with those steriotypes, fewer will be produced. Doing that alone wont change how people think and react to each other, but it's a start...
I've never felt the need to hide my identity, but I've never gotten deeply involved in an MMO before. My female friends that have, have a lot of horror stories and do tend to hide that they're female just to ignore the creepy PMs. More importantly, though, it's the rampant misogyny the gaming community often expresses that keeps female gamers from "coming out of the closet". Not harassment on the personal level but feeling like we are completely unwelcome in a community we have every right to be a part of and influence.
(BTW, Guys, flirting with someone online the moment you find out they're female just ain't cool, it's weird and it's creepy.)
If I have any word of advice it's just to remember that we're a quiet but growing minority and we're just as hardcore gamers as you. The gaming industry is in a lot of financial trouble right now, so maybe scaring away big bucks for the industry isn't the smartest idea the gaming community has ever cooked up.
Huge kudos to OP, hope the trend will be towards continued better treatment of women in MMORPGs. There's a lot more of us than you realize.
One of the more hilarious things I've done is roll a female char and pretend to be a female.
Trick is to be subtle and not 'OMG I'mma GIRL!!! PINK PONIES!! SHOES!'.
Yes, all sorts of free stuff was handed to me.
Yes it was hilarious.
No I didn't feel bad at all. :P
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
find a good long-term guild with like-minded individuals and stick with them! communities are much more tolerable when you give up on the "game community" and focus on your "guild community." none of the women i game with hide their gender and none of them express issues with it!
it can be tough finding a good gaming community to match your individual needs, but there are a lot of good groups out there and in time i feel anyone can do so if they actively try! doing so alleviates so much of the stress in dealing with online communities.
I've had 4 in my 14 years of mmo playing, I also play with several females. NONE of them "hide" their identity / gender, most people just don't believe them when they are honest about it.
I find this topic to be distasteful, though you seem to be on the side that women shouldn't NEED to hide their identity you are making a lot of generalizations and you have a lot of opinions that are simply personal and not true for everyone.
My god this is one of the only things i have seen written in this thread that actually shows any brainpower involved. Thank you so god damn much for this. All i see is everyone clucking about who is to blame or how thier personal experience is x or y. And of course calls for censorship (which is the most disturbing aspect). The only other people worthy of any respect on this thread have been those basically saying "Who cares? Ive learned to deal with other humans who i dont care for by not putting up with thier BS."
On another somewhat related note: You women complaining about how guys treat you with no respect. Guess what? Most guys dont treat each other with much respect. You think your a special case because your harrased over being an object of sexual desire or demeaned due to your physical aesthetic limitations? The grass is no greener on the other side. The only reason that men arent as affected by taunts about how they look is because most of us are aware that we kind of look like garbage in the first place and have long ago accepted it. And besides, you women will sleep with hideous guys anyway, so it doesnt really matter how we look so much. In fact we are often harrassed by both men and women over our inability to attract women (whether its the case or not) and yet i dont hear alot from guys asking for censorship on the matter.
You want to hit a guy where it hurts? Just call him creepy. Surprisingly it has a pretty big impact for being so tame. Women will sleep with ugly, or a jerk (alot of you prefer jerks), or idiots. But women dont usually sleep with creepy and most guys know this.
You're kind of creepy.
Honestly you're generalizing. A lot of the talk here has NOT been in support of censorship. Yeah, in a lot of cases female gamers just need to toughen up. But you also see a lot of vitriol and misogyny and "you aren't welcome here", racism, homophobia, etc.
It's not moral, and it shouldn't be considered acceptable. That's not the same as saying it should be censored. I think we can all agree that sexism/racism/homophobia are *bad*.
Any attempt at 'gamers are mature' argument is shot down by this simple kickstarter.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games
The amount of hate she got is just beyond mind-boggling. There were lots of people that donated because of the trolls and the media attention that generated so not ALL gamers are 'bad'.
I honestly can't imagine how brave someone has to be to go through what she has and still go ahead with the project.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I find that I hide my identity online not because of harassment reasons but simply because it lets me get into the roleplaying aspect more. I actually consider myself to have three different aspects. In Character, Out of Character, and Real Life.
I do everything I can to keep the three separate. My Out of Character sometimes will be the same gender and sometimes won't. My In character is the same way. My characters though I generally set up to look as close to my ideal as the games will allow and even my gear tends to go in that direction (though obviously I want to be well geared, if I have a choice between two roughly equal gears, I'm going to take the one that I like better).
That doesn't mean I'll wear skimpy clothing either. If anything, I prefer more clothing on my characters, but at the same time, I like non-restrictive appearing clothing. Which generally ends up with knee high socks, a pair of pants and long sleeved clothing.
Oddly, I like my female characters to look fairly masculine and my male characters to look fairly feminine...
But again, it isn't about harrassment, it is personal preference. I think every person differs though. I'm more of a serious gamer. A hardcore gamer and a casual player will almost certainly have a different opinion on the matter. Hardcore gamers would probably just consider harassment as part of playing online. I know I used to think that way when I was one. A casual player would probably consider harassment a much bigger issue.
This is based on personal experiences though.
As long males see women as sex objects and also not as equals you will always have this behavior by majority of males young or mature in RL or online im affraid, thats at moment a fact of live.
Unless we change the whole tradition and culture we will keep seeing this for next couple of hundred years we humans are still very child like race not matured enough give it time and hopefully we solve this MAJOR problem MEN vs WOMEN that there EQUAL.
It will prolly take another couple of hundred years before women are truely equal to men. Women themslefs are also to blame but thats another discussion not relevant here right now.
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