You will never replicate the feeling of your first mmo.
And nostalgia is a hell of thing.
I barely played Ultima Online, and it was not my first MMO. Same with EQ, or AC, or SWG.
My first MMO was DAoC. Yet I still think all these games were great, despite WHEN I played them. The only one I'd be nostalgic over is DAoC.
I never said that you wouldn't like other mmos. I'm just stating that for most people their very first mmo is the one they will remember the most fondly.
You will never replicate the feeling of your first mmo.
And nostalgia is a hell of thing.
I barely played Ultima Online, and it was not my first MMO. Same with EQ, or AC, or SWG.
My first MMO was DAoC. Yet I still think all these games were great, despite WHEN I played them. The only one I'd be nostalgic over is DAoC.
I never said that you wouldn't like other mmos. I'm just stating that for most people their very first mmo is the one they will remember the most fondly.
Usually true, but that is not why people often say that old MMORPGs were the best.
They say it because, it's more or less true. The modern day MMOs are decent for a certain crowd of people, but they are so unlike MMOs, and so stale and poorly designed, I think it's a disservice to put them in the same genre as old MMOs.
Originally posted by DJJazzy I never said that you wouldn't like other mmos. I'm just stating that for most people their very first mmo is the one they will remember the most fondly.
Or, to modify that a bit: once you've fallen in love with one MMO, you'll never feel that same way about another. The first MMO you fall in love with will forever be the one you remember the most fondly.
My first MMO was horrible (Horizons, if anyone cares). But the first great MMO I played - I know I'll get that same feeling again.
Well OP tell us how you feel in ten years when you have a few years under your belt in this genre......When SWTOR 10 is being released and making millions of dollars, then you can say how crappy it is and how great games were back in 2010.....
Well OP tell us how you feel in ten years when you have a few years under your belt in this genre......When SWTOR 10 is being released and making millions of dollars, then you can say how crappy it is and how great games were back in 2010.....
So you're implying that old MMOs were bad and that we're just senile and forgetful? Hooh boy..
Many people have their rose coloured glasses on when they talk about their favourite old school MMO. The problem is that very few people really want to go back to the past. The only reason they put up with EQ's bullshit is because they were tired of UO's bullshit and they only reason they put up with UO's bullshit is because there was nothing else.
That statement could not be further from the truth.
I still play UO and EQ today and currently play Vanguard as my main MMORPG.
If something along those lines came out in 2012/13 with today's graphics, I would throw handfuls of money at the company who made it and I mean handfuls of money!
They could charge $30-$50 per month subscription and I would invest in multiple accounts.
Congrats on hanging on for so long. 99.9% of everyone else who's ever played those games has moved on and have no intention of going back. Unless you're Brad McQuaid.
Then explain why gog.com has sold so many games.....
As for the OP.
Games back then were built for gamers and not the general population, they were hard, required teamwork and required an investment of time to master. Crafting, exploration, guilds and groups meant something and were not forum punch lines. The 2 main things to me: You could explore, there were no strategy guides at release and no super sites with answers and there was a community, something that does not exist today.
Many people have their rose coloured glasses on when they talk about their favourite old school MMO. The problem is that very few people really want to go back to the past. The only reason they put up with EQ's bullshit is because they were tired of UO's bullshit and they only reason they put up with UO's bullshit is because there was nothing else.
That statement could not be further from the truth.
I still play UO and EQ today and currently play Vanguard as my main MMORPG.
If something along those lines came out in 2012/13 with today's graphics, I would throw handfuls of money at the company who made it and I mean handfuls of money!
They could charge $30-$50 per month subscription and I would invest in multiple accounts.
Congrats on hanging on for so long. 99.9% of everyone else who's ever played those games has moved on and have no intention of going back. Unless you're Brad McQuaid.
Then explain why gog.com has sold so many games.....
As for the OP.
Games back then were built for gamers and not the general population, they were hard, required teamwork and required an investment of time to master. Crafting, exploration, guilds and groups meant something and were not forum punch lines. The 2 main things to me: You could explore, there were no strategy guides at release and no super sites with answers and there was a community, something that does not exist today.
They were also just straight up better designed (with the exception of EQ), and had more attention to detail. They were made by gamers who knew their stuff, not CEOs trying to cash in.
WoW clones are poorly thought out in general, which is why the devs have to resort to crutches like instancing and raising the level cap to keep the games from imploding.
Been playing MMO's for 10+ years. I personally love all the choices available today, despite all the negative being said about newer games. I experience as many as I have time for.
There are certain aspects I dont miss from "older" mmo's...such as spending hours and hours defending a castle, impossible lengthy gulid hunts, raids that last for days, etc. I like my fun, but I'm older now. I got stuff to do -- house, kids, career, etc. The "old ways" just don't make sense, and certainly are not "fun" if you cannot devote most of your extra time to it.
Maybe we can take it as a sign that those complaining about newer games are either a) very young with lots of extra time, or b) are older with absolutely no family or career.
You will never replicate the feeling of your first mmo.
And nostalgia is a hell of thing.
I barely played Ultima Online, and it was not my first MMO. Same with EQ, or AC, or SWG.
My first MMO was DAoC. Yet I still think all these games were great, despite WHEN I played them. The only one I'd be nostalgic over is DAoC.
I never said that you wouldn't like other mmos. I'm just stating that for most people their very first mmo is the one they will remember the most fondly.
In my case it's not even close. My favorite mmorpg was about the 4th or 5th one I played (Eve Online). I quit in January of this year after playing for 3 years.
In the past 5 years this genre has become stale.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Been playing MMO's for 10+ years. I personally love all the choices available today
You mean like, WoW in Middle Earth, WoW with Rifts, WoW with boobs, WoW with angel wings, WoW with combos, or WoW in Star Wars?
I can't think of anything in older MMOs like DAoC that stopped someone from playing casually if they wanted to.
Then I guess you never played Lineage or EQ1 and progressed to end game...
As I've said in another thread, EQ was poorly designed, and its end game was a big part of that.
DAoC had no such problems. There was no tiered raiding system. Where EQ went for gimmick gear based/timing raids like WoW, DAoC went for more teamwork/puzzle/dynamic AI oriented raids with multiple paths to victory.
There was no DKP system in DAoC. If there was a big raid going on, you could just join right in. So long as you contributed, you got a shot at the loot.
Been playing MMO's for 10+ years. I personally love all the choices available today
You mean like, WoW in Middle Earth, WoW with Rifts, WoW with boobs, WoW with angel wings, WoW with combos, or WoW in Star Wars?
I can't think of anything in older MMOs like DAoC that stopped someone from playing casually if they wanted to.
Then I guess you never played Lineage or EQ1 and progressed to end game...
As I've said in another thread, EQ was poorly designed, and its end game was a big part of that.
DAoC had no such problems. There was no tiered raiding system. Where EQ went for gimmick gear based/timing raids like WoW, DAoC went for more teamwork/puzzle/dynamic AI oriented raids with multiple paths to victory.
There was no DKP system in DAoC. If there was a big raid going on, you could just join right in. So long as you contributed, you got a shot at the loot.
Well kudos to DAOC then I guess. If you're here to pump the title, then go speak with the hardcore players still running multiple accounts for buffbots....and if its so casual friendly, why do you have such an issue with wow, or any of the newer games for that matter?
Been playing MMO's for 10+ years. I personally love all the choices available today
You mean like, WoW in Middle Earth, WoW with Rifts, WoW with boobs, WoW with angel wings, WoW with combos, or WoW in Star Wars?
I can't think of anything in older MMOs like DAoC that stopped someone from playing casually if they wanted to.
Then I guess you never played Lineage or EQ1 and progressed to end game...
As I've said in another thread, EQ was poorly designed, and its end game was a big part of that.
DAoC had no such problems. There was no tiered raiding system. Where EQ went for gimmick gear based/timing raids like WoW, DAoC went for more teamwork/puzzle/dynamic AI oriented raids with multiple paths to victory.
There was no DKP system in DAoC. If there was a big raid going on, you could just join right in. So long as you contributed, you got a shot at the loot.
Well kudos to DAOC then I guess. If you're here to pump the title, then go speak with the hardcore players still running multiple accounts for buffbots....and if its so casual friendly, why do you have such an issue with wow, or any of the newer games for that matter?
Uh, because they're poorly made, have very few features, have no game balance, and offer no options, and bring absolutely nothing new to the genre?
DAoC gave you the OPTION to play casually. It didn't design its entire game on it. You could solo in DAoC, but grouping was better. Makes sense, because grouping is harder to do, and you can do harder things with more people.
You had the option to level via PvP.
You had the option to level via kill tasks and grinding.
You had the option to level via exploration and bounties.
In LotRO...you can only level by questing. Period. The entire game is designed around that one casual concept, at the expense of everything else.
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
People are going to tell you its rose colored glasses and nostalgia, but that only goes so far. There is a reason there are still well over 100k active subscribers to these old games, and before you guys act like that isnt a lot because of WOW's super huge number, realize that at the very height of their popularity (EQ was the biggest) these games had around 400-650k subscribers. That was at the height, so the fact that 13 years later these games still have well into the 100's is very telling.
There are a lot of people who wont play old games because of the bad graphics, despite how good the games are, which hinders a big portion of where these games could have more subs. The other issue is all of us veterans already exhausted most of the content, so that whole "if they're so great why dont you keep playing them" card is just a huge load of crap. Thats like saying you've been to the same Six Flags 12 times in a year, and you would like to go to a different six flags. Doesn't mean the old six flags isnt still awesome, it just means you personally have gotten worn out on that particular "content".
It also doesnt mean the format of that content is bad either, which is a fallacious assumption many people make.
The other mistake people make is assuming that us vets liked EVERY SINGLE part of the way those old games were. If you sit down and talk to us you'll find that we will readily admit there were stupid aspects to the games. Corpse retrievals for example, or extremely severe death penalties. But there were fantastic things as well.
^This.
Well said Hrimnir.
The only things I disagree on is the corpse runs and death penalty but that is just my personal preference and doesn't take away from your post.
Originally posted by soulmirror The 2 main things to me: You could explore, there were no strategy guides at release and no super sites with answers and there was a community, something that does not exist today.
Of course, if someone developed a game which was identical in tone to one of these old MMORPGs now, there certainly would be guides and wikis and whatnot at release; and there is every chance that its community would share all of the problems of current communities. Some genies can't be stuffed back into their bottles.
Been playing MMO's for 10+ years. I personally love all the choices available today
You mean like, WoW in Middle Earth, WoW with Rifts, WoW with boobs, WoW with angel wings, WoW with combos, or WoW in Star Wars?
I can't think of anything in older MMOs like DAoC that stopped someone from playing casually if they wanted to.
Then I guess you never played Lineage or EQ1 and progressed to end game...
As I've said in another thread, EQ was poorly designed, and its end game was a big part of that.
DAoC had no such problems. There was no tiered raiding system. Where EQ went for gimmick gear based/timing raids like WoW, DAoC went for more teamwork/puzzle/dynamic AI oriented raids with multiple paths to victory.
There was no DKP system in DAoC. If there was a big raid going on, you could just join right in. So long as you contributed, you got a shot at the loot.
Well kudos to DAOC then I guess. If you're here to pump the title, then go speak with the hardcore players still running multiple accounts for buffbots....and if its so casual friendly, why do you have such an issue with wow, or any of the newer games for that matter?
....because grouping is harder to do, and you can do harder things with more people...
Oh yeah. thanks for reminding me that even grouping was a pain in the a** and time consuming in older games. There are plenty of new games in which you can progress in multiple ways...Crafting, PvP, questing, grouping.
Look, obviously DAOC is your "rose-colored" game. I'm happy for you. I'm just not one of those old farts who wants nothing to change. The games changed with me, and I'm happy about it.
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
People are going to tell you its rose colored glasses and nostalgia, but that only goes so far. There is a reason there are still well over 100k active subscribers to these old games, and before you guys act like that isnt a lot because of WOW's super huge number, realize that at the very height of their popularity (EQ was the biggest) these games had around 400-650k subscribers. That was at the height, so the fact that 13 years later these games still have well into the 100's is very telling.
There are a lot of people who wont play old games because of the bad graphics, despite how good the games are, which hinders a big portion of where these games could have more subs. The other issue is all of us veterans already exhausted most of the content, so that whole "if they're so great why dont you keep playing them" card is just a huge load of crap. Thats like saying you've been to the same Six Flags 12 times in a year, and you would like to go to a different six flags. Doesn't mean the old six flags isnt still awesome, it just means you personally have gotten worn out on that particular "content".
It also doesnt mean the format of that content is bad either, which is a fallacious assumption many people make.
The other mistake people make is assuming that us vets liked EVERY SINGLE part of the way those old games were. If you sit down and talk to us you'll find that we will readily admit there were stupid aspects to the games. Corpse retrievals for example, or extremely severe death penalties. But there were fantastic things as well.
^This.
Well said Hrimnir.
The only things I disagree on is the corpse runs and death penalty but that is just my personal preference and doesn't take away from your post.
DAoC had a nice middle of the road death penalty. An xp hit, but no lost levels, and no corpse runs.
Your first death at x level was a mild xp penalty. Second death, a bigger penalty, third death, the biggest, and then any death from there on had the same xp penalty as the third one. If you made it back to where you died you could pray at your tombstone and get some xp back.
Been playing MMO's for 10+ years. I personally love all the choices available today
You mean like, WoW in Middle Earth, WoW with Rifts, WoW with boobs, WoW with angel wings, WoW with combos, or WoW in Star Wars?
I can't think of anything in older MMOs like DAoC that stopped someone from playing casually if they wanted to.
Then I guess you never played Lineage or EQ1 and progressed to end game...
As I've said in another thread, EQ was poorly designed, and its end game was a big part of that.
DAoC had no such problems. There was no tiered raiding system. Where EQ went for gimmick gear based/timing raids like WoW, DAoC went for more teamwork/puzzle/dynamic AI oriented raids with multiple paths to victory.
There was no DKP system in DAoC. If there was a big raid going on, you could just join right in. So long as you contributed, you got a shot at the loot.
Well kudos to DAOC then I guess. If you're here to pump the title, then go speak with the hardcore players still running multiple accounts for buffbots....and if its so casual friendly, why do you have such an issue with wow, or any of the newer games for that matter?
....because grouping is harder to do, and you can do harder things with more people...
Oh yeah. thanks for reminding me that even grouping was a pain in the a** and time consuming in older games. There are plenty of new games in which you can progress in multiple ways...Crafting, PvP, questing, grouping.
Look, obviously DAOC is your "rose-colored" game. I'm happy for you. I'm just not one of those old farts who wants nothing to change. The games changed with me, and I'm happy about it.
Hm, where to start with you.
First, DAoC is not my "rose colored game". If any game got that title, it'd be Age of Empires 2. DAoC had its share of problems, ones that grew over the years, else I'd be playing it now.
Second, I'm not talking about "I can level crafting skills. I can get PvP loot!" I'm talking about multiple ways to level your PvE. Multiple ways to get basic experience.
This is not offered in modern MMOs. You get all the best loot and xp from doing linear quest chains that are designed to be soloed. Grouping is not encouraged. In fact it's often penalized, due to instancing and quests, there is rarely an occasion where it is beneficial to group with anyone else. Certainly not a stranger.
I am neither old, nor against change. The irony is, MMOs haven't changed. Not in 8 years. I am an advocate for innovation and change, which is why I like golden age MMOs, because they all offered something different and new. Modern MMOs don't. You're the curmudgeon that doesn't seem to like change.
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
Its partially reality, and its partially nostalgia. People fondly remember the good parts, and tend to gloss over the bad.
I've been playing MMO's since before EQ1 had its first expansion. And there are certainly things about EQ1 I think need to be brought back into the MMO world, and at the same time there are parts that need to be left in the dust-bin of history.
Corpse runs and overly harsh death penalties? They can go away. A map that feels more like a world than a game level? That needs to come back. Multiple starting areas and non-linear paths through the world? They can come back as well.
Grouping as a viable way to play through the game in more than "Dungeons" and "That one hard quest" should come back, but forced grouping needs to stay away.
Some dungeons being non-instanced? Keep.
"Corpse runs and overly harsh death penalties" is what makes UO and Eve Online fun and what gives everyone the adrenaline rush.
"Multiple starting areas and non-linear paths through the world" ... Again, Eve Online has this... lots of games do...
Been playing MMO's for 10+ years. I personally love all the choices available today
You mean like, WoW in Middle Earth, WoW with Rifts, WoW with boobs, WoW with angel wings, WoW with combos, or WoW in Star Wars?
I can't think of anything in older MMOs like DAoC that stopped someone from playing casually if they wanted to.
Then I guess you never played Lineage or EQ1 and progressed to end game...
As I've said in another thread, EQ was poorly designed, and its end game was a big part of that.
DAoC had no such problems. There was no tiered raiding system. Where EQ went for gimmick gear based/timing raids like WoW, DAoC went for more teamwork/puzzle/dynamic AI oriented raids with multiple paths to victory.
There was no DKP system in DAoC. If there was a big raid going on, you could just join right in. So long as you contributed, you got a shot at the loot.
Well kudos to DAOC then I guess. If you're here to pump the title, then go speak with the hardcore players still running multiple accounts for buffbots....and if its so casual friendly, why do you have such an issue with wow, or any of the newer games for that matter?
....because grouping is harder to do, and you can do harder things with more people...
Oh yeah. thanks for reminding me that even grouping was a pain in the a** and time consuming in older games. There are plenty of new games in which you can progress in multiple ways...Crafting, PvP, questing, grouping.
Look, obviously DAOC is your "rose-colored" game. I'm happy for you. I'm just not one of those old farts who wants nothing to change. The games changed with me, and I'm happy about it.
Second, I'm not talking about "I can level crafting skills. I can get PvP loot!" I'm talking about multiple ways to level your PvE. Multiple ways to get basic experience.
Yes, there are many games in which you can gain actual experience by participating in things besides linear questing. You don't "get out" much do you? How bout this? Why don't you take your "WoW with boobies" comments into another forum. You are not well versed in what you are speaking of, nor are we discussing specific games in this thread. That is not the point. I'm not going to list a breakdown of games/features for you here. Go discover them on your own...
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
Its partially reality, and its partially nostalgia. People fondly remember the good parts, and tend to gloss over the bad.
I've been playing MMO's since before EQ1 had its first expansion. And there are certainly things about EQ1 I think need to be brought back into the MMO world, and at the same time there are parts that need to be left in the dust-bin of history.
Corpse runs and overly harsh death penalties? They can go away. A map that feels more like a world than a game level? That needs to come back. Multiple starting areas and non-linear paths through the world? They can come back as well.
Grouping as a viable way to play through the game in more than "Dungeons" and "That one hard quest" should come back, but forced grouping needs to stay away.
Some dungeons being non-instanced? Keep.
"Corpse runs and overly harsh death penalties" is what makes UO and Eve Online fun and what gives everyone the adrenaline rush.
"Multiple starting areas and non-linear paths through the world" ... Again, Eve Online has this... lots of games do...
I'd go so far as to say instances need to be abolished entirely. Devs have proven that they abuse them and cannot properly balance them. They just use them as a crutch for bad game design. All dungeons should be open, but they should be big enough, and numerous enough, and well balanced enough, to give everyone a place. Dungeons weren't instanced in DAoC and I never had to camp for a mob, or wait in line, or had any problems with people kill stealing. My fondest memories come from public dungeons.
Been playing MMO's for 10+ years. I personally love all the choices available today
You mean like, WoW in Middle Earth, WoW with Rifts, WoW with boobs, WoW with angel wings, WoW with combos, or WoW in Star Wars?
I can't think of anything in older MMOs like DAoC that stopped someone from playing casually if they wanted to.
Then I guess you never played Lineage or EQ1 and progressed to end game...
As I've said in another thread, EQ was poorly designed, and its end game was a big part of that.
DAoC had no such problems. There was no tiered raiding system. Where EQ went for gimmick gear based/timing raids like WoW, DAoC went for more teamwork/puzzle/dynamic AI oriented raids with multiple paths to victory.
There was no DKP system in DAoC. If there was a big raid going on, you could just join right in. So long as you contributed, you got a shot at the loot.
Well kudos to DAOC then I guess. If you're here to pump the title, then go speak with the hardcore players still running multiple accounts for buffbots....and if its so casual friendly, why do you have such an issue with wow, or any of the newer games for that matter?
....because grouping is harder to do, and you can do harder things with more people...
Oh yeah. thanks for reminding me that even grouping was a pain in the a** and time consuming in older games. There are plenty of new games in which you can progress in multiple ways...Crafting, PvP, questing, grouping.
Look, obviously DAOC is your "rose-colored" game. I'm happy for you. I'm just not one of those old farts who wants nothing to change. The games changed with me, and I'm happy about it.
Second, I'm not talking about "I can level crafting skills. I can get PvP loot!" I'm talking about multiple ways to level your PvE. Multiple ways to get basic experience.
Yes, there are many games in which you can gain actual experience by participating in things besides linear questing. You don't "get out" much do you? How bout this? Why don't you take your "WoW with boobies" comments into another forum. You are not well versed in what you are speaking of, nor are we discussing specific games in this thread. That is not the point. I'm not going to list a breakdown of games/features for you here. Go discover them on your own...
So what you're saying is, you don't have a counter argument.
Comments
I never said that you wouldn't like other mmos. I'm just stating that for most people their very first mmo is the one they will remember the most fondly.
Usually true, but that is not why people often say that old MMORPGs were the best.
They say it because, it's more or less true. The modern day MMOs are decent for a certain crowd of people, but they are so unlike MMOs, and so stale and poorly designed, I think it's a disservice to put them in the same genre as old MMOs.
My first MMO was horrible (Horizons, if anyone cares). But the first great MMO I played - I know I'll get that same feeling again.
We stay in the past because there haven't been any good AAA MMOs in the present. Except maybe Vanguard.
Well OP tell us how you feel in ten years when you have a few years under your belt in this genre......When SWTOR 10 is being released and making millions of dollars, then you can say how crappy it is and how great games were back in 2010.....
So you're implying that old MMOs were bad and that we're just senile and forgetful? Hooh boy..
Then explain why gog.com has sold so many games.....
As for the OP.
Games back then were built for gamers and not the general population, they were hard, required teamwork and required an investment of time to master. Crafting, exploration, guilds and groups meant something and were not forum punch lines. The 2 main things to me: You could explore, there were no strategy guides at release and no super sites with answers and there was a community, something that does not exist today.
They were also just straight up better designed (with the exception of EQ), and had more attention to detail. They were made by gamers who knew their stuff, not CEOs trying to cash in.
WoW clones are poorly thought out in general, which is why the devs have to resort to crutches like instancing and raising the level cap to keep the games from imploding.
Been playing MMO's for 10+ years. I personally love all the choices available today, despite all the negative being said about newer games. I experience as many as I have time for.
There are certain aspects I dont miss from "older" mmo's...such as spending hours and hours defending a castle, impossible lengthy gulid hunts, raids that last for days, etc. I like my fun, but I'm older now. I got stuff to do -- house, kids, career, etc. The "old ways" just don't make sense, and certainly are not "fun" if you cannot devote most of your extra time to it.
Maybe we can take it as a sign that those complaining about newer games are either a) very young with lots of extra time, or b) are older with absolutely no family or career.
In my case it's not even close. My favorite mmorpg was about the 4th or 5th one I played (Eve Online). I quit in January of this year after playing for 3 years.
In the past 5 years this genre has become stale.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
You mean like, WoW in Middle Earth, WoW with Rifts, WoW with boobs, WoW with angel wings, WoW with combos, or WoW in Star Wars?
I can't think of anything in older MMOs like DAoC that stopped someone from playing casually if they wanted to.
Then I guess you never played Lineage or EQ1 and progressed to end game.
Edit: Sure, you could play those games casually. Get your face wiped in open world pvp, watch your guild pass you up, and never raid. Awesome fun!
As I've said in another thread, EQ was poorly designed, and its end game was a big part of that.
DAoC had no such problems. There was no tiered raiding system. Where EQ went for gimmick gear based/timing raids like WoW, DAoC went for more teamwork/puzzle/dynamic AI oriented raids with multiple paths to victory.
There was no DKP system in DAoC. If there was a big raid going on, you could just join right in. So long as you contributed, you got a shot at the loot.
Well kudos to DAOC then I guess. If you're here to pump the title, then go speak with the hardcore players still running multiple accounts for buffbots....and if its so casual friendly, why do you have such an issue with wow, or any of the newer games for that matter?
Uh, because they're poorly made, have very few features, have no game balance, and offer no options, and bring absolutely nothing new to the genre?
DAoC gave you the OPTION to play casually. It didn't design its entire game on it. You could solo in DAoC, but grouping was better. Makes sense, because grouping is harder to do, and you can do harder things with more people.
You had the option to level via PvP.
You had the option to level via kill tasks and grinding.
You had the option to level via exploration and bounties.
In LotRO...you can only level by questing. Period. The entire game is designed around that one casual concept, at the expense of everything else.
^This.
Well said Hrimnir.
The only things I disagree on is the corpse runs and death penalty but that is just my personal preference and doesn't take away from your post.
Oh yeah. thanks for reminding me that even grouping was a pain in the a** and time consuming in older games. There are plenty of new games in which you can progress in multiple ways...Crafting, PvP, questing, grouping.
Look, obviously DAOC is your "rose-colored" game. I'm happy for you. I'm just not one of those old farts who wants nothing to change. The games changed with me, and I'm happy about it.
DAoC had a nice middle of the road death penalty. An xp hit, but no lost levels, and no corpse runs.
Your first death at x level was a mild xp penalty. Second death, a bigger penalty, third death, the biggest, and then any death from there on had the same xp penalty as the third one. If you made it back to where you died you could pray at your tombstone and get some xp back.
Hm, where to start with you.
First, DAoC is not my "rose colored game". If any game got that title, it'd be Age of Empires 2. DAoC had its share of problems, ones that grew over the years, else I'd be playing it now.
Second, I'm not talking about "I can level crafting skills. I can get PvP loot!" I'm talking about multiple ways to level your PvE. Multiple ways to get basic experience.
This is not offered in modern MMOs. You get all the best loot and xp from doing linear quest chains that are designed to be soloed. Grouping is not encouraged. In fact it's often penalized, due to instancing and quests, there is rarely an occasion where it is beneficial to group with anyone else. Certainly not a stranger.
I am neither old, nor against change. The irony is, MMOs haven't changed. Not in 8 years. I am an advocate for innovation and change, which is why I like golden age MMOs, because they all offered something different and new. Modern MMOs don't. You're the curmudgeon that doesn't seem to like change.
"Corpse runs and overly harsh death penalties" is what makes UO and Eve Online fun and what gives everyone the adrenaline rush.
"Multiple starting areas and non-linear paths through the world" ... Again, Eve Online has this... lots of games do...
Yes, there are many games in which you can gain actual experience by participating in things besides linear questing. You don't "get out" much do you? How bout this? Why don't you take your "WoW with boobies" comments into another forum. You are not well versed in what you are speaking of, nor are we discussing specific games in this thread. That is not the point. I'm not going to list a breakdown of games/features for you here. Go discover them on your own...
I'd go so far as to say instances need to be abolished entirely. Devs have proven that they abuse them and cannot properly balance them. They just use them as a crutch for bad game design. All dungeons should be open, but they should be big enough, and numerous enough, and well balanced enough, to give everyone a place. Dungeons weren't instanced in DAoC and I never had to camp for a mob, or wait in line, or had any problems with people kill stealing. My fondest memories come from public dungeons.
So what you're saying is, you don't have a counter argument.
Who doesn't enjoy a time they were 10 years younger?
While there are many reaons given in this thread, a lot of which i agree with, i think this is the one that most answers the question.