"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
People are going to tell you its rose colored glasses and nostalgia, but that only goes so far. There is a reason there are still well over 100k active subscribers to these old games, and before you guys act like that isnt a lot because of WOW's super huge number, realize that at the very height of their popularity (EQ was the biggest) these games had around 400-650k subscribers. That was at the height, so the fact that 13 years later these games still have well into the 100's is very telling.
There are a lot of people who wont play old games because of the bad graphics, despite how good the games are, which hinders a big portion of where these games could have more subs. The other issue is all of us veterans already exhausted most of the content, so that whole "if they're so great why dont you keep playing them" card is just a huge load of crap. Thats like saying you've been to the same Six Flags 12 times in a year, and you would like to go to a different six flags. Doesn't mean the old six flags isnt still awesome, it just means you personally have gotten worn out on that particular "content".
It also doesnt mean the format of that content is bad either, which is a fallacious assumption many people make.
The other mistake people make is assuming that us vets liked EVERY SINGLE part of the way those old games were. If you sit down and talk to us you'll find that we will readily admit there were stupid aspects to the games. Corpse retrievals for example, or extremely severe death penalties. But there were fantastic things as well.
^This.
Well said Hrimnir.
The only things I disagree on is the corpse runs and death penalty but that is just my personal preference and doesn't take away from your post.
DAoC had a nice middle of the road death penalty. An xp hit, but no lost levels, and no corpse runs.
Your first death at x level was a mild xp penalty. Second death, a bigger penalty, third death, the biggest, and then any death from there on had the same xp penalty as the third one. If you made it back to where you died you could pray at your tombstone and get some xp back.
I meant that I actually liked the harsh death penalty and corpse runs
For me they add that harsh immersive feel and risk involved in what i do.
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
They were diffrent type of games.
Simple as that.
There is not much more to it.
Of course partially it is nostalgia as well and bad parts are remembered less, but still there is so much crying and pleading and whining simply because current mainstream mmorpg's are very diffrent beasts than older ones.
Some expect well developed virtual worlds, which is where the old games implied the genre was heading.
What they get today is generic fantasy MMO #1372 with little depth and no freedom.
This sums it up pretty well for me. I expected ever more complex and amazing virtual worlds (think Caprica) and instead we've gone in an opposite direction by turning MMORPGs into "games" that can be quickly/easily enjoyed by the masses who eschewed the early titles because they were not looking for a new land to live in.
All of my favorite games were developed many years ago (including vanilla WOW) and if someone has started playing MMO's created since about 2006 they haven't experienced how the genre used to be and what it promised.
I know, my tastes aren't popular, and the games I enjoy (such as EVE) aren't considered "fun" by many, but still I hope for a return of sorts one day as people's tastes evolve towards a desire of something different.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm disappointed with today's MMOs because since Anarchy Online it's been going downhill, atleast in terms of complexity of the game mechanics and scale. Im looking forward to GW2 next month and I know it will be very far from being as complex as Anarchy Online, but atleast the scale is there.
And as I stated in a previous post, most games today cater to lazy people who wants everything served, so the games become easier and easier until you can let a decently evolved tomato do the work for you.. and thats why I'm disappointed.
Many of us old people as you like to say, have been playing the same MMOs you have. many of us have played MMOs you have never had a chance to try.
It''s not so much "nostolgia" as it is, what the hell happened? after Wow came out in 2004 innovation died and was replaced with renovation and imitation.
2004 was the rise of the themepark. even though we had them before, in some form. the restrictions that had grown from Wow until current day is just stifling.
Not Going say much more. but when i see GW2 or this MMO will destroy Wow I die a little inside. they never will and will only add to the stagnation that is rampant in the genre.
So we talk about it here. it's not like we don't play mondern MMOs it's just comparing what we had, should have had compared to what we have been getting, is just sad really.
Who doesn't enjoy a time they were 10 years younger?
While there are many reaons given in this thread, a lot of which i agree with, i think this is the one that most answers the question.
I also think that it's the cheapest/most dismissive/least valid answer to the question.
The people that are truely honest with themselves understand there's a correlation between having lots of free time and being able to enjoy that content. As cheap as it may be to you, it's still an answer and cannot be dismissed.
Many people have their rose coloured glasses on when they talk about their favourite old school MMO. The problem is that very few people really want to go back to the past. The only reason they put up with EQ's bullshit is because they were tired of UO's bullshit and they only reason they put up with UO's bullshit is because there was nothing else.
That statement could not be further from the truth.
I still play UO and EQ today and currently play Vanguard as my main MMORPG.
If something along those lines came out in 2012/13 with today's graphics, I would throw handfuls of money at the company who made it and I mean handfuls of money!
They could charge $30-$50 per month subscription and I would invest in multiple accounts.
Ditto Kilsin. I canceled my UO account about 5 months ago and I pretty much regret it. I've given the EQ emulator a spin recently and found it fairly enjoyable as well (although missing a devoted population for the most part, still fun).
Thing is I would play the hell out of either of those games if there was a way to update the UI and make it so you dont have to make thousands of extra mouseclicks somehow. I've gotten fairly adept at using macro programs over the years but its just not very intuitive for the most part.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
The past was better. Would you prefer we constantly gobble up everything released as "Pure Gold" when it obviously isn't?
SWG was better than SWTOR, WoW, Rift, EQ2, Aion, Tera (past vs present)
DAOC was better than SWTOR, WoW, Rift, EQ2, Aion, Tera (past vs present)
UO SWTOR, WoW, Rift, EQ2, Aion, Tera (past vs present), and it was 2D!
I fail to see how looking to the past, which was obviously better, as a measure of success is a bad thing. Obviously there's room for change, but when you completely change the overall modeled design it hurts the bottom line. The present, quite simply, sucks compared to the market of the past.
WTB: Less Face-Rolling gameplay and more thought provoking interactions.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
Evidence tends to favor option B.
But remember, it's answering a false dichotomy; you are presenting only two possibilities, when there are actually many more.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Would also like to say, that for young gamers that don't understand the meaning of depth in an MMO, picture Skyrim, complete with backstory, books, open world, item/component collections, random wandering creatures/people/quests, a (somewhat) functional crafting system etc. IN AN MMO.
Theres no reason to believe it "cant be done" in an MMO by devs. Maybe THEY cant, but its been done before, and I'm sure it will at some point in the future.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
Evidence tends to favor option B.
Actually, all evidence presented in this thread has favored option A. People have very clear well thought out reasons for liking MMOs. No one is just shrugging their shoulders saying "I remember liking them better".
They were simply, different games, and better designed in almost all aspects.
Would also like to say, that for young gamers that don't understand the meaning of depth in an MMO, picture Skyrim, complete with backstory, books, open world, item/component collections, random wandering creatures/people/quests, a (somewhat) functional crafting system etc. IN AN MMO.
Theres no reason to believe it "cant be done" in an MMO by devs. Maybe THEY cant, but its been done before, and I'm sure it will at some point in the future.
It's been done before, with worse tech, smaller teams, and almost no budget. Yet MMOs now, with massive teams, publishers and funding, and modern tech (and cable modems!) can't come anywhere close. It's sad. Just goes to show how hard it is to make something good once publishers get involved in things.
Actually, all evidence presented in this thread has favored option A.
Let's just say it is not something about themselves players can honestly evaluate.
But that's why the op chose the false dichotomy; forcing a black and white choice makes all or nothing rhetoric inevitable.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Actually, all evidence presented in this thread has favored option A.
Let's just say it is not something about themselves players can honestly evaluate.
The usual cop out answer... that we're all senile and our memories have totally faded, and our brain is just making things up...
I can understand why you'd believe that, but it is a dismissive, unfounded answer. Where we can point to features, design documents, and facts, you can only think that MAYBE we're not remembering things well.
The usual cop out answer... that we're all senile and our memories have totally faded, and our brain is just making things up...
I can understand why you'd believe that, but it is a dismissive, unfounded answer. Where we can point to features, design documents, and facts, you can only think that MAYBE we're not remembering things well.
I can point out to those same things and tell you they're crap. But do you know why?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Hmm... this is not that difficult to answer, but difficult to articulate... so let me give it a shot..
Back in the day when EQ1 was new and fresh, you got a cloth shirt and either a club, dagger, or sword and just dropped in front of your city. Congratulations. From there, you had to make your own purpose in the world. There was a lot of lore to be had if you looked and a lot you could do. Quests, when you found them, were "cool" things and usually required interaction from the player where you'd HAVE TO read and respond with proper text etc.
Number of skills and abilities was VERY low. It wasn't about doing a series of 14 different skills in a particular order and having 3 or 4 hotbars loaded with different things. It was about knowing what to do and when. This made it where you could interact a little more with those you grouped with, as you weren't busy mashing 20 buttons just to hit 1 enemy.
Experience was SLOW. This was GOOD. Basically, today, if you start any MMO and play with someone the first day, then you take a break the second day, on the third day, the other person will be so far ahead of you in levels that you'll never play with them again until end level and thats if you're guilded with them too. This system meant you could actually go on a vacation for a weak and come back without having felt you completely abandoned your character and you'd also still be able to XP with your friends.
Overall, things felt more like a world rather than a game. Friendships and reputation mattered. Real life could prevent you from playing for days at a time without massive negative consequences to your character.
I have fun with todays MMOs too. But it is not as compelling or enthralling as the older ones (EQ and SWG for me).
It is all about people remembering novel things as better than they actually are. For instance, Everquest was the greatest thing ever when it came out, and I remembered it that way, but then I tried playing it again. So boring I lasted about an hour before quitting again.
The usual cop out answer... that we're all senile and our memories have totally faded, and our brain is just making things up...
I can understand why you'd believe that, but it is a dismissive, unfounded answer. Where we can point to features, design documents, and facts, you can only think that MAYBE we're not remembering things well.
I can point out to those same things and tell you they're crap. But do you know why?
Garvon, You read a lot of villainy into one rather short sentence. Carry on.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
The older mmos were more sandboxish than anything else. Alot of vets dont realize that the thing they do indeed want is a AAA sandbox mmo with subtle hints of themepark in it.
UO offered more then just combat, which is pretty much our only option in mmos for a very long time. Micro communities sprung up around features like fishing that had minimum combat. Entire web sites were dedicated to nothing but player housing decorations.
I played UO for like 6 to 7 years every mmo since I'm lucky if I make a year because I get bored to tear of the constant combat.
It is all about people remembering novel things as better than they actually are. For instance, Everquest was the greatest thing ever when it came out, and I remembered it that way, but then I tried playing it again. So boring I lasted about an hour before quitting again.
Ah, so because you had a specific experience and aren't able to judge things objectively, we are ALL defective?
I recently went back and played Ultima Online for the first time. I thought it was fantastic, it entertained me much longer than LotRO did. I went back and played DAoC, and everything I loved about it, that hadn't been patched out, was just as good as I remember. And the things I DISLIKED about it, seemed so trivial now that I've experienced features in modern MMOs that are soooo much worse. But that's the thing, I never forgot the things I disliked.
Comments
I also think that it's the cheapest/most dismissive/least valid answer to the question.
I meant that I actually liked the harsh death penalty and corpse runs
For me they add that harsh immersive feel and risk involved in what i do.
They were diffrent type of games.
Simple as that.
There is not much more to it.
Of course partially it is nostalgia as well and bad parts are remembered less, but still there is so much crying and pleading and whining simply because current mainstream mmorpg's are very diffrent beasts than older ones.
This sums it up pretty well for me. I expected ever more complex and amazing virtual worlds (think Caprica) and instead we've gone in an opposite direction by turning MMORPGs into "games" that can be quickly/easily enjoyed by the masses who eschewed the early titles because they were not looking for a new land to live in.
All of my favorite games were developed many years ago (including vanilla WOW) and if someone has started playing MMO's created since about 2006 they haven't experienced how the genre used to be and what it promised.
I know, my tastes aren't popular, and the games I enjoy (such as EVE) aren't considered "fun" by many, but still I hope for a return of sorts one day as people's tastes evolve towards a desire of something different.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm disappointed with today's MMOs because since Anarchy Online it's been going downhill, atleast in terms of complexity of the game mechanics and scale. Im looking forward to GW2 next month and I know it will be very far from being as complex as Anarchy Online, but atleast the scale is there.
And as I stated in a previous post, most games today cater to lazy people who wants everything served, so the games become easier and easier until you can let a decently evolved tomato do the work for you.. and thats why I'm disappointed.
Was about to make a lenghty post but what you said XAPGames is actually the best to describe what I was going to post.
Many of us old people as you like to say, have been playing the same MMOs you have. many of us have played MMOs you have never had a chance to try.
It''s not so much "nostolgia" as it is, what the hell happened? after Wow came out in 2004 innovation died and was replaced with renovation and imitation.
2004 was the rise of the themepark. even though we had them before, in some form. the restrictions that had grown from Wow until current day is just stifling.
Not Going say much more. but when i see GW2 or this MMO will destroy Wow I die a little inside. they never will and will only add to the stagnation that is rampant in the genre.
So we talk about it here. it's not like we don't play mondern MMOs it's just comparing what we had, should have had compared to what we have been getting, is just sad really.
The people that are truely honest with themselves understand there's a correlation between having lots of free time and being able to enjoy that content. As cheap as it may be to you, it's still an answer and cannot be dismissed.
Ditto Kilsin. I canceled my UO account about 5 months ago and I pretty much regret it. I've given the EQ emulator a spin recently and found it fairly enjoyable as well (although missing a devoted population for the most part, still fun).
Thing is I would play the hell out of either of those games if there was a way to update the UI and make it so you dont have to make thousands of extra mouseclicks somehow. I've gotten fairly adept at using macro programs over the years but its just not very intuitive for the most part.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
The past was better. Would you prefer we constantly gobble up everything released as "Pure Gold" when it obviously isn't?
SWG was better than SWTOR, WoW, Rift, EQ2, Aion, Tera (past vs present)
DAOC was better than SWTOR, WoW, Rift, EQ2, Aion, Tera (past vs present)
UO SWTOR, WoW, Rift, EQ2, Aion, Tera (past vs present), and it was 2D!
I fail to see how looking to the past, which was obviously better, as a measure of success is a bad thing. Obviously there's room for change, but when you completely change the overall modeled design it hurts the bottom line. The present, quite simply, sucks compared to the market of the past.
WTB: Less Face-Rolling gameplay and more thought provoking interactions.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Evidence tends to favor option B.
But remember, it's answering a false dichotomy; you are presenting only two possibilities, when there are actually many more.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Would also like to say, that for young gamers that don't understand the meaning of depth in an MMO, picture Skyrim, complete with backstory, books, open world, item/component collections, random wandering creatures/people/quests, a (somewhat) functional crafting system etc. IN AN MMO.
Theres no reason to believe it "cant be done" in an MMO by devs. Maybe THEY cant, but its been done before, and I'm sure it will at some point in the future.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Actually, all evidence presented in this thread has favored option A. People have very clear well thought out reasons for liking MMOs. No one is just shrugging their shoulders saying "I remember liking them better".
They were simply, different games, and better designed in almost all aspects.
It's been done before, with worse tech, smaller teams, and almost no budget. Yet MMOs now, with massive teams, publishers and funding, and modern tech (and cable modems!) can't come anywhere close. It's sad. Just goes to show how hard it is to make something good once publishers get involved in things.
Let's just say it is not something about themselves players can honestly evaluate.
But that's why the op chose the false dichotomy; forcing a black and white choice makes all or nothing rhetoric inevitable.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Good lord, how long was that queued up?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The usual cop out answer... that we're all senile and our memories have totally faded, and our brain is just making things up...
I can understand why you'd believe that, but it is a dismissive, unfounded answer. Where we can point to features, design documents, and facts, you can only think that MAYBE we're not remembering things well.
I can point out to those same things and tell you they're crap. But do you know why?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Hmm... this is not that difficult to answer, but difficult to articulate... so let me give it a shot..
Back in the day when EQ1 was new and fresh, you got a cloth shirt and either a club, dagger, or sword and just dropped in front of your city. Congratulations. From there, you had to make your own purpose in the world. There was a lot of lore to be had if you looked and a lot you could do. Quests, when you found them, were "cool" things and usually required interaction from the player where you'd HAVE TO read and respond with proper text etc.
Number of skills and abilities was VERY low. It wasn't about doing a series of 14 different skills in a particular order and having 3 or 4 hotbars loaded with different things. It was about knowing what to do and when. This made it where you could interact a little more with those you grouped with, as you weren't busy mashing 20 buttons just to hit 1 enemy.
Experience was SLOW. This was GOOD. Basically, today, if you start any MMO and play with someone the first day, then you take a break the second day, on the third day, the other person will be so far ahead of you in levels that you'll never play with them again until end level and thats if you're guilded with them too. This system meant you could actually go on a vacation for a weak and come back without having felt you completely abandoned your character and you'd also still be able to XP with your friends.
Overall, things felt more like a world rather than a game. Friendships and reputation mattered. Real life could prevent you from playing for days at a time without massive negative consequences to your character.
I have fun with todays MMOs too. But it is not as compelling or enthralling as the older ones (EQ and SWG for me).
It is all about people remembering novel things as better than they actually are. For instance, Everquest was the greatest thing ever when it came out, and I remembered it that way, but then I tried playing it again. So boring I lasted about an hour before quitting again.
Garvon, You read a lot of villainy into one rather short sentence. Carry on.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The older mmos were more sandboxish than anything else. Alot of vets dont realize that the thing they do indeed want is a AAA sandbox mmo with subtle hints of themepark in it.
UO offered more then just combat, which is pretty much our only option in mmos for a very long time. Micro communities sprung up around features like fishing that had minimum combat. Entire web sites were dedicated to nothing but player housing decorations.
I played UO for like 6 to 7 years every mmo since I'm lucky if I make a year because I get bored to tear of the constant combat.
Ah, so because you had a specific experience and aren't able to judge things objectively, we are ALL defective?
I recently went back and played Ultima Online for the first time. I thought it was fantastic, it entertained me much longer than LotRO did. I went back and played DAoC, and everything I loved about it, that hadn't been patched out, was just as good as I remember. And the things I DISLIKED about it, seemed so trivial now that I've experienced features in modern MMOs that are soooo much worse. But that's the thing, I never forgot the things I disliked.
Paraphrased the OP's question so you might understand it a bit better without getting into motives
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community