I like the thrill of ganking and of being ganked, I like spontaneous battles that arise in quest areas and which completely take your mind off what you were just doing, those things will be something I'll miss in GW2.
However, one should learn to accept that a game can't have everything and that the developers chose to focus on a certain avenue.
There is no such thing as a game that finds the perfect synergy between all possible forms of content.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Just for info, you can "quest" in the WvWvW area - there are a ton of events, and also skill point challenges there, and even different levels of resource nodes for crafting.
Yea this is the true OWPvP...outlevel everyone and gank...how educated opinion and I am not referring to the "google translator english"
Come on, that's what happens in ANY open world PvP game. Not saying evertybody is doing it, but it only takes a couple of asshats to ruin the game for a dozen or more lower level people who have no chance in hell to fight back.
And I hope you write Indonesian as well as that person writes English... ;-)
People get ganked on the odd occassion as a noob or get caught out from time to time in OW games. This notion that a few asshats ruin a load of peoples fun all the time just has no bearing with the reality of the situation.
If people are getting ganked when they are heading out in the wider, more dangerous regions then that is probably more to do with the fact that they are paying little to no attention to what is going on around them and they are walking around with what is tantamount to a giant bullseye painted on their heads.
I've seen far more gameplay ruining ganks in non OW games where people camp out at the edge of pvp lakes, warcamps and other spawn points.
Again though, which one is "best" depends on the game and on the individual players preference at the end of the day. In the case of GW2 I suspect that WvW is by far the best option of the two as it seems far more in keeping with what the game seems to be trying to achieve.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Why so many GW2 funboys trying to compare OWPvP with WvW is beyond of my imagination?!
WvW is isolated PvP zone with predefined sort of battleground, everything is designed and 'balanced' with control nodes and scripted NPCs, repetitive content and only difference will be opposite realms from time to time.
Rest of (*90%) GW2 World is PvE flower picking friendly environment without any danger from PvP confrontation or dueling, even that flower is instanced private node, just in case some dirty 'ninja' snatch it in front of you eyes. Nothing wrong in this design, if you love it, enjoy it, you can even start to sing 'Let the sunshine, let the sunshine in, ...'.
*/ I can only speculate about size of the PvE world map in comparison with WvW map. Don't have real inf.
Why so many GW2 funboys trying to compare OWPvP with WvW is beyond of my imagination?!
WvW is isolated PvP zone with predefined sort of battleground, everything is designed and 'balanced' with control nodes and scripted NPCs, repetitive content and only difference will be opposite realms from time to time.
Rest of (*90%) GW2 World is PvE flower picking friendly environment without any danger from PvP confrontation or dueling, even that flower is instanced private node, just in case some dirty 'ninja' snatch it in front of you eyes. Nothing wrong in this design, if you love it, enjoy it, you can even start to sing 'Let the sunshine, let the sunshine in, ...'.
*/ I can only speculate about size of the PvE world map in comparison with WvW map. Don't have real inf.
Then you lack imagination....
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Why so many GW2 funboys trying to compare OWPvP with WvW is beyond of my imagination?!
WvW is isolated PvP zone with predefined sort of battleground, everything is designed and 'balanced' with control nodes and scripted NPCs, repetitive content and only difference will be opposite realms from time to time.
Rest of (*90%) GW2 World is PvE flower picking friendly environment without any danger from PvP confrontation or dueling, even that flower is instanced private node, just in case some dirty 'ninja' snatch it in front of you eyes. Nothing wrong in this design, if you love it, enjoy it, you can even start to sing 'Let the sunshine, let the sunshine in, ...'.
*/ I can only speculate about size of the PvE world map in comparison with WvW map. Don't have real inf.
People get ganked on the odd occassion as a noob or get caught out from time to time in OW games. This notion that a few asshats ruin a load of peoples fun all the time just has no bearing with the reality of the situation.
If people are getting ganked when they are heading out in the wider, more dangerous regions then that is probably more to do with the fact that they are paying little to no attention to what is going on around them and they are walking around with what is tantamount to a giant bullseye painted on their heads.
I was questing in AoC, minding my own business in a level 25 area and a level 60 gets off his horse and shoots me in the back with an arrow then rides off. No way I could defend against it. No way I could watch for him and hide when I saw him coming. Although not a loot rules game, it still isn't fun to be that out classed. And I can't see it being fun for him except to come here and laugh that someone he killed complained about it. Making the game fun by making it not fun for others shouldn't be a mechanic in any game. Now had he been level capped to me and I could of counter attacked it would be interesting and hypervigilance could protect me. 1 arrow = dead can't be countered. Nor can the expensive mount that has twice my running speed. I would hardly call a level 25 questing area the "wilder, more dangerous regions". And people like this ranger make a habit of circling these areas killing everyone for no good reason but to cause trouble.
Some might respond that I should live with it, level up, and get even, but not everyone lives to be max level. Game developers (sometimes) put a lot of effort into the leveling game. I like to explore that and to see all the world, do the quests, find and complete the rare dungeon or quest.
I am glad GW2 is limiting pvp to WvW areas, although I wouldn't mind if those areas were bigger covering more of the end game.
What I hate about OPVP are those who clearly don't know how to play, but are rewarded for their lack of skill, when they kill opponents that have zero chance to fight back. That includes foes of same level.
What about those annoying "perma-stealth" rogue types who stay hidden and then jump on players. Even if they are same level, they have an advantage, they burn all their stupid CDs and then simply perma-stealth again waiting for their lovely CDs to finish (and their next victim). How "skillful" are those? I'd say they aren't skilled at all.
Same goes with ranged casters with uber 1-shot spells with super high CDs like some special spells in Aion for example. Go in, burn all your CDs, leave like a headless chicken near the safe zone (flying was so silly) wait for CDs, rinse repeat.
The amazing amount of skill required to do something like this is astonishing.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
What I hate about OPVP are those who clearly don't know how to play, but are rewarded for their lack of skill, when they kill opponents that have zero chance to fight back. That includes foes of same level.
What about those annoying "perma-stealth" rogue types who stay hidden and then jump on players. Even if they are same level, they have an advantage, they burn all their stupid CDs and then simply perma-stealth again waiting for their lovely CDs to finish (and their next victim). How "skillful" are those? I'd say they aren't skilled at all.
Same goes with ranged casters with uber 1-shot spells with super high CDs like some special spells in Aion for example. Go in, burn all your CDs, leave like a headless chicken near the safe zone (flying was so silly) wait for CDs, rinse repeat.
The amazing amount of skill required to do something like this is astonishing.
They are all pretty bad implementations, you havent been exposed to properly implemented Open World PVP, its called prejudice, imagine if you played a bad FPS, I mean a really bad FPS where everytime you shot your character would spin around 3 times and the developer left a bug ingame whereby anyone could also have aimbot by just changing a config.
You then went on the internet and said "Please dont make any more FPS games, they are just people using aimbots with a config change and spinning around 3 times when you try and shoot", that's you, right now, talking about open world pvp
They are all pretty bad implementations, you havent been exposed to properly implemented Open World PVP, its called prejudice, imagine if you played a bad FPS, I mean a really bad FPS where everytime you shot your character would spin around 3 times and the developer left a bug ingame whereby anyone could also have aimbot by just changing a config.
You then went on the internet and said "Please dont make any more FPS games, they are just people using aimbots with a config change and spinning around 3 times when you try and shoot", that's you, right now, talking about open world pvp
Funny thing is, when I first played Counter Strike I was just like that, "please don't make another game like this one". Unfortunately now the world is full or "realistic" shooter FPS games which I hate, a lot. But that's a different discussion....
Maybe I wasn't exposed properly to Open World PVP, and maybe others who post here are like me. Are there any serious attempts (recent of course don't go 10 years ago) on making a properly implemented Open World PVP?
I've played lots and lots of MMORPGs that had some form of Open PVP, there were always "issues" just like the above I mentioned.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I was questing in AoC, minding my own business in a level 25 area and a level 60 gets off his horse and shoots me in the back with an arrow then rides off. No way I could defend against it. No way I could watch for him and hide when I saw him coming. Although not a loot rules game, it still isn't fun to be that out classed. And I can't see it being fun for him except to come here and laugh that someone he killed complained about it. Making the game fun by making it not fun for others shouldn't be a mechanic in any game. Now had he been level capped to me and I could of counter attacked it would be interesting and hypervigilance could protect me. 1 arrow = dead can't be countered. Nor can the expensive mount that has twice my running speed. I would hardly call a level 25 questing area the "wilder, more dangerous regions". And people like this ranger make a habit of circling these areas killing everyone for no good reason but to cause trouble.
Some might respond that I should live with it, level up, and get even, but not everyone lives to be max level. Game developers (sometimes) put a lot of effort into the leveling game. I like to explore that and to see all the world, do the quests, find and complete the rare dungeon or quest.
I am glad GW2 is limiting pvp to WvW areas, although I wouldn't mind if those areas were bigger covering more of the end game.
So you got killed once in a noob area, not sure how that counters my initial point. If you are getting repeatedly killed out in the wilder areas (note you mentioned 1 kill, in a noob area), then more often than not the player is doing something wrong.
If you occasionally get ganked in a noob area, then unless you are completely and utterly against getting killed in such a way, then it really should not be that much of a big deal. Is this guy going around and 1 shotting you every 5 minutes or something? Are you unable to do any exploration at all?
Some individuals will go around stalking noob areas, I've been ganked as a noob before when I had zero chance of fighting back, but that was a rare occasion. Someone could go out of his way to grief me, yet considering total game time, that would make up less than a fraction of a percent. I travelled around as a non armoured, non weapon (leaf blade lol) carrying noob in Darkfall in the first few weeks, wandering from one side of the map to another just looking for Chaos Chests. In that time I got scrubbed a whopping 3 times. I got ganked by two players when trying to open my first Selentine Chest, annoying as hell but within the space of a few days I had another 20 keys, no big loss.
If someone is completely against getting jumped then fair enough. OW is not for everyone, it doesn't make them less able players or less "hardcore", it is just not fun for them. But this notion of noobs getting spanked left, right and centre and not being able to do anything is just something that does not match up with the reality as far as I have seen.
If you are not fussed with levelling up and getting even, why not play on a pve server in AoC and remove the chance altogether btw?
Btw I am glad GW2 is limiting WvWvW areas and the like as it makes the most sense for the game. I wouldn't advocate ramming OW into any game for the sake of it.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
They are all pretty bad implementations, you havent been exposed to properly implemented Open World PVP, its called prejudice, imagine if you played a bad FPS, I mean a really bad FPS where everytime you shot your character would spin around 3 times and the developer left a bug ingame whereby anyone could also have aimbot by just changing a config.
You then went on the internet and said "Please dont make any more FPS games, they are just people using aimbots with a config change and spinning around 3 times when you try and shoot", that's you, right now, talking about open world pvp
Funny thing is, when I first played Counter Strike I was just like that, "please don't make another game like this one". Unfortunately now the world is full or "realistic" shooter FPS games which I hate, a lot. But that's a different discussion....
Maybe I wasn't exposed properly to Open World PVP, and maybe others who post here are like me. Are there any serious attempts (recent of course don't go 10 years ago) on making a properly implemented Open World PVP?
I've played lots and lots of MMORPGs that had some form of Open PVP, there were always "issues" just like the above I mentioned.
Yep and there are always issues with the route that ANet took, just look at any WoW forum, just look at the amount of hate everywhere about maturity of the community, of people calling eachother names and insulting eachother on battlegrounds of people finding ways of griefind their own team cause well you cant do anything about it.
So yeah it is no better. It is a matter of preference, trying to make it pass like WvW will be some silver bullet that will solve all issues, "dont worry guys its ok ANet got you back, dont let those Open World PVP nastys get to you, come to our WvW its much better there is no ganking" is just trying to delude yourself, the problem is shifted somewhere else. I never said Open World PVP was better, it is a personal preference for those who like that type of immersion. There are plenty of ways to deal with the problems you speak off.
Some people would just rather spin anything this game does as the best thing since sliced bread, even picking up apples apparently is a design decision that was written by god himself written in a sheet made of gold, sent directly to the ANet HQ.
It would be a lot better if people wanted to discuss the merits of one and the other, rather than trying to claim "WvW is better than World PVP" and then grasping at straws to try and convince everyone that badly implemented mechanics which encourage ganking and which have been addressed many times during this thread is the reason why WvW is better. What does "Better" even mean in this context, there is so much complexity in the two systems how can you just say one is better than the other?
Below is an excerpt from an article featured on the blog, Divinity's Reach.
"As always critics have found their reasons to dislike the latest MMO. In this case, Guild Wars 2 is the aforementioned target of a lot of attention, and the community has leveled both just and unwarranted criticisms at the game. One of my favorite quotes from recent developer interviews is this quote by Colin Johanson:
"Over the years we’ve learned to not be surprised by any of the feedback we get. I’ve learned one person will say a mountain is too tall, another will say it’s too short, and a third will say there should be no mountain at all"
One of the largest criticism stems from a niche-focused group that have stated Guild Wars 2 has no open world PvP. Without this inclusion in the game, many supporters of that PvP "genre" have chosen to not even try Guild Wars 2.
I would argue that these critics would be right to say Guild Wars 2 does not have true "open world PvP", however, I would argue ArenaNet has created something better through WvW.
Note: Several articles have attempted to discuss this distinction, but I haven't found one that defines the distinctions and captures why, ultimately, open world PvPers should rejoice at WvW."
I know this is a controversial issue, so please be respectful to those who may disagree with you. Thank you!
I love the fact that open world PvP is not being pursued by some of the newer MMO's to be released or has been released. Everyone in their right mind knows open world PvP inevitably boils down to dishonest gameplay and ganking. It does nothing for the genre and drives players away. I also love the fact that some of the newer games are featuring 3 faction PvP and PvP zones to segment that population away from others who want the feel and excitement of exploration and suspense in pushing the envelope so to speak on the PvE side of things. It really harkens back to the old school mentality where players were fun to around and not something you hated to see like in WoW.
@OP, WvW does not offer what many (most?) of the open world PvP lovers seek. That is the sense of danger when doing something / anything. Then there's all kinds of people, some just want to fight players in un-expected situation, some want to organize guild fights at any chosen location, some want to gank. There's all kinds of motives that has nothing to do with objective based "organized" and structured PvP, which is WvW. I'm not saying WvW is a bad thing, it's awesome, it's just not the holy replacement of open world PvP, in fact, it is in totally different category. It is a battleground that simply is huge.
Personally I like open world PvP since it brings the open world more alive. Also the spontaneous fights against someone who is not a predictable AI are fun. It's fun to build healthy rivalries also, to have nemesises and whatnot on other factions. Yes factions, I like factions in my mmorpgs. I love open world faction based PvP, there's that extra factional pride and more or less purpose, for the open world PvP.
That's why it wouldnt be as good in GW2 since it lacks factions, and that's why I wont like BG's or WvW either that much in GW2, since you basically kill your friends and neighbours, and everyone looks the same on each of the 3 "factions" in the WvW, even if they are from another realm.
The PvE looks great in this game, cannot wait to participate in it, but the PvP not so much imo. It might be balanced and very good and fun from e-sports and competitive perspective, but I like my PvP with all the extra spices and the stuff I mentioned earlier. Going to give it a shot though, ofcourse, it's half of the pie so I hope I like it at least enough to make the game last longer than what it would without the PvP.
@Zylaxx, PvE servers along the PvP servers, problem solved.
Okay lets get this straight. in gw 2 the core PvE gameplay (cooperative dynamic event) will be ruined if they implemented OWPvP. If the games we are talking about is gw 2, its the fact. WvWvW is better than OWPvP for the whole game (for guild wars 2 its a different topic for other games ). For those who support pvp server for gw 2, then you forgot the whole "we want people to help each other" quote from anet.
FIGHTING AN ELDER DRAGON, SOMEONE COME AND GANK YOU. THE DRAGON GOT STRONGER AND KILL EVERYONE
I spent a lot of time discussing this subject, right here on MMORPG.com. Always there will be a debate about Open Wold PVP and Guild Wars 2. As I continue to research the topics related to the debate, I always seem to find that one side of the argument --- namely that which stems from those claiming Guild Wars 2 doesn not have Open World PVP --- either haven't played it or are assuming too much without fully understanding it.
I spent a lot of time researching my article, working to study the structure of Word vs World and recorded 8 days worth of footage which I watched and re-watched over and over again to take notes on the subject matter. I'm a PVPer, and I have played several Open World PVP games and somehow my efforts to explain to my fellow PVPers how Guild Wars 2 makes an effort to improve the Open World PVP element in MMORPGs suddenly brands me a villain. Not only just a villain, but apparently an fanboy who is just blindly making stuff up and being overly wishful.
Like the article for Divinity's Reach, I too have done my homework and put care into trying to prepare my argument. But no matter how much I try to state the facts, there is always someone here who just wants more without even taking time to form an argument of their own.
Some people would just rather spin anything this game does as the best thing since sliced bread, even picking up apples apparently is a design decision that was written by god himself written in a sheet made of gold, sent directly to the ANet HQ.
It would be a lot better if people wanted to discuss the merits of one and the other, rather than trying to claim "WvW is better than World PVP" and then grasping at straws to try and convince everyone that badly implemented mechanics which encourage ganking and which have been addressed many times during this thread is the reason why WvW is better.
Articles like Divinity's Reach do not try to make a spin on things. One of the problems here is that readers much like Raven may not be taking time to understand the approach of the author. Like myself, we strive to form an argument that draws from fact and experience. We've compared the evidence and made an outcome based on our prospective and preferences. There is nothing in either article which stats you have to listen to them --- nor are their statements which suggests that it is sheer perfection.
From my seat, comments such as that are just there for the sake of commenting. There was no effort or thought into constructing the point of view, merely the desire to rapidly spit it out as fast as possible without actually taking time to really look into the subject or physically play it themselves.
Again my opinion if you think WvW closed environment is better than I respectfully disagree.
So the point of view from Raven's side of the field is that WvW is a closed enviroment. From what I gather, he also makes an effort to state that it is small, controlled, and not enough freedom to make things happen the way you want. etc.
But Raven, have you taken time to consider this?
The Open World PVP population is actually relatively small. While you may argue differently, perhaps by considering me ignorant for stating that --- as an Open World PVPers myself, I know it's small. Furthermore...
ArenaNet has created an MMORPG that they felt was large enough, at launch, for the target audience. In many Open World PVP games, you will likely spend a long time between each encounter. Or vast sections of the game turn into uneventful, useless graveyards of unused, underplayed content because the Open World PVP crowds find little use for those regions. ArenaNet has chosen to streamline it, cut the fat, keep things more straight-forward to allow for more frequent and consistent action to please the diehard PVPer with the ability to quickly drop into the game, find battle, and get the hell on with their lives.
WvW is not as small as you may think, but in comparison to your average Open World PVP server --- yes it's small. But how much of those Open World PVP did you actually use every day? You can't sit here and tell me you dropped into any zone in that Open World PVP game and instantly dropped into a scimish of 20+ players? The only time that happened was in Planet Side, and the only reason that worked is because of the HART Drop Ship and Instant Action --- otherwise the MAJORITY of the world was locked down and NOTHING was going on.
WvW is still very large, but it jam packs a huge population into a small NON-INSTANCED bottle. A Mini-MMORPG if you will. If you'd take the time to actually play and study the game instead of just trying to play the counterpoint just to play the counterpoint, perhaps you'd see that too and see why your fellow Open World PVPers are praising ArenaNET for FINALLY making some improvements on the game type.
I spent a lot of time discussing this subject, right here on MMORPG.com. Always there will be a debate about Open Wold PVP and Guild Wars 2. As I continue to research the topics related to the debate, I always seem to find that one side of the argument --- namely that which stems from those claiming Guild Wars 2 doesn not have Open World PVP --- either haven't played it or are assuming too much without fully understanding it.
I spent a lot of time researching my article, working to study the structure of Word vs World and recorded 8 days worth of footage which I watched and re-watched over and over again to take notes on the subject matter. I'm a PVPer, and I have played several Open World PVP games and somehow my efforts to explain to my fellow PVPers how Guild Wars 2 makes an effort to improve the Open World PVP element in MMORPGs suddenly brands me a villain. Not only just a villain, but apparently an fanboy who is just blindly making stuff up and being overly wishful.
Like the article for Divinity's Reach, I too have done my homework and put care into trying to prepare my argument. But no matter how much I try to state the facts, there is always someone here who just wants more without even taking time to form an argument of their own.
Some people would just rather spin anything this game does as the best thing since sliced bread, even picking up apples apparently is a design decision that was written by god himself written in a sheet made of gold, sent directly to the ANet HQ.
It would be a lot better if people wanted to discuss the merits of one and the other, rather than trying to claim "WvW is better than World PVP" and then grasping at straws to try and convince everyone that badly implemented mechanics which encourage ganking and which have been addressed many times during this thread is the reason why WvW is better.
Articles like Divinity's Reach do not try to make a spin on things. One of the problems here is that readers much like Raven may not be taking time to understand the approach of the author. Like myself, we strive to form an argument that draws from fact and experience. We've compared the evidence and made an outcome based on our prospective and preferences. There is nothing in either article which stats you have to listen to them --- nor are their statements which suggests that it is sheer perfection.
From my seat, comments such as that are just there for the sake of commenting. There was no effort or thought into constructing the point of view, merely the desire to rapidly spit it out as fast as possible without actually taking time to really look into the subject or physically play it themselves.
Again my opinion if you think WvW closed environment is better than I respectfully disagree.
So the point of view from Raven's side of the field is that WvW is a closed enviroment. From what I gather, he also makes an effort to state that it is small, controlled, and not enough freedom to make things happen the way you want. etc.
But Raven, have you taken time to consider this?
The Open World PVP population is actually relatively small. While you may argue differently, perhaps by considering me ignorant for stating that --- as an Open World PVPers myself, I know it's small. Furthermore...
ArenaNet has created an MMORPG that they felt was large enough, at launch, for the target audience. In many Open World PVP games, you will likely spend a long time between each encounter. Or vast sections of the game turn into uneventful, useless graveyards of unused, underplayed content because the Open World PVP crowds find little use for those regions. ArenaNet has chosen to streamline it, cut the fat, keep things more straight-forward to allow for more frequent and consistent action to please the diehard PVPer with the ability to quickly drop into the game, find battle, and get the hell on with their lives.
WvW is not as small as you may think, but in comparison to your average Open World PVP server --- yes it's small. But how much of those Open World PVP did you actually use every day? You can't sit here and tell me you dropped into any zone in that Open World PVP game and instantly dropped into a scimish of 20+ players? The only time that happened was in Planet Side, and the only reason that worked is because of the HART Drop Ship and Instant Action --- otherwise the MAJORITY of the world was locked down and NOTHING was going on.
WvW is still very large, but it jam packs a huge population into a small NON-INSTANCED bottle. A Mini-MMORPG if you will. If you'd take the time to actually play and study the game instead of just trying to play the counterpoint just to play the counterpoint, perhaps you'd see that too and see why your fellow Open World PVPers are praising ArenaNET for FINALLY making some improvements on the game type.
Way to take what I said out of context.
"So the point of view from Raven's side of the field is that WvW is a closed enviroment. From what I gather, he also makes an effort to state that it is small, controlled, and not enough freedom to make things happen the way you want. etc."
I would suggest you find out what a closed environment actually means, at no point have I said its small, or that you didnt have the freedom to make things happen the way you want, you should go back and re-read what I said, which was to do with predictability and disconnection with the actual game world. So no I havent taken into account your unrelated comment because that has nothing to do with what I was discussing.
"Articles like Divinity's Reach do not try to make a spin on things. One of the problems here is that readers much like Raven may not be taking time to understand the approach of the author. "
Again what you quoted me on is a direct response to the discussion that was ongoing and is only valid within the context of that same discussion and has no bearing on any analysis I may or may not have done of the original article of the OP.
I applaud you for trying to actually build an argument but your post while it has a lot of words is pretty shallow, you quoted me on something that was only relevant to the local discussion I was having with another user, I dont really know if you actually took the time to read the thread of discussion or just decided to read the last bit and make your own conclusions about it. But you should absolutely read the full discussion I was having BEFORE making the assumption.
You then quote me saying that WvW is a closed system, which it is, then make some sort of assumption or deliberate misdirection that I was claiming a bunch of other things which are again unrelated to me saying "it is a closed system", this could be because you dont know what a closed system is and I suggest you look it up.
Ohh and you also pat yourself on the back for being so great at making good arguments and watching hours of footage before forensically analysing it.
I dont know why you even quoted me on that tbh, you could have just added your own opinion which are the last 3 paragraphs of your post and is the only thing really constructive and of any value.
I recommend Raven, if you want people to take you seriously and actually read your responses and not take then out of context --- you may want to consider breaking away from the Forum system. So far I've made my case, and it's easy to find. You too should also put together an article, gathering your own evidence and trying to make a clear and percise counterpoint. By responding on a forum, you limit the value of your own words. Fewer people read forums, even fewer than that really want to read the entire conversation because much of the language is poor and lacking syntax.
For a lot of people reading forums is like reading a different language. Yet an article has limits and defines a point quite clearly, containing everything you'd ever need or want to say.
So far, you've not really said anything to contrary my points. At the moment, all you've done is just try to defend your own words --- which really doesn't amount to much as those words are indeed your words within the context you wrote them. If you insist I read the rest of other people's posts to see a different context to your words, then you really have a critical lack of understanding when it comes to writing and should seek to mend it.
If you feel you have a solid point of view, take time to put together an article and share it with the rest of the world. You'll get more views and more exposer, and you may ignite more articles which will directly quote you whether you like it or not. What you write needs to not be guarded like a watch-dog by you. You need to let what you write speak for itself, as you're just writing nothing at all and risk looking like a fool when you try to attack or correct others for quoting you.
I recommend Raven, if you want people to take you seriously and actually read your responses and not take then out of context --- you may want to consider breaking away from the Forum system. So far I've made my case, and it's easy to find. You too should also put together an article, gathering your own evidence and trying to make a clear and percise counterpoint. By responding on a forum, you limit the value of your own words. Fewer people read forums, even fewer than that really want to read the entire conversation because much of the language is poor and lacking snytax.
For a lot of people reading forums is like reading a different language. Yet an article has limits and defines a point quite clearly, containing everything you'd ever need or want to say.
So far, you've not really said anything to contrary my points. At the moment, all you've done is just try to defend your own words --- which really doesn't amount to much as those words are indeed your words within the context you wrote them. If you insist I read the rest of other people's posts to see a different context to your words, then you really have a critical lack of understanding when it comes to writing and should seek to mend it.
If you feel you have a solid point of view, take time to put together an article and share it with the rest of the world. You'll get more views and more exposer, and you may ignite more articles which will directly quote you whether you like it or not. What you write needs to not be guarded like a watch-dog by you. You need to let what you write speak for itself, as you're just writing nothing at all and risk looking like a fool when you try to attack or correct others for quoting you.
I dont know why you are still discussing with me about how to make arguments, or why you decided to quote me at all, afaik I am still entitled to discuss what I want with whom I want within the topic, I have no idea why you decided to pick my name probably at random, feel free to share your opinion with people that care. Just don't take what I say out of context, because the point you were trying to make has nothing to do with what I said.
In case you didnt get it, I didnt argue for the sake of argument, there is a difference between you understanding a discussion I was having with someone else and me arguing for the sake of it, and I never said WvW was small, and I quote "So the point of view from Raven's side of the field is that WvW is a closed enviroment. From what I gather, he also makes an effort to state that it is small, controlled, and not enough freedom to make things happen the way you want. etc." I never said these things.
And I quote "Articles like Divinity's Reach do not try to make a spin on things.",what you quoted me on had nothing to do with Divinity's Reach article it was a discussion with someone else completely unrelated to it.
Edit: As a matter of fact I dont really care if you quote me or not, just pointing out that a) you pretended I said something which I didnt and then proceeded to build a case against an argument I never had and never said, b) I never commented on anything that was directed at the Divinity's Reach article which again you assumed without any attempt to understand the context in which I was stating my opinion.
Just for info, you can "quest" in the WvWvW area - there are a ton of events, and also skill point challenges there, and even different levels of resource nodes for crafting.
So you can go "quest" there and get that thrill of potentially be attacked anytime even in GW2 ;-)
Is it efficient or at least of the same magnitude as other PvE grinding outside of the Mists? It might not be important for every person, but for me it is important that the "dangerous PvE" needs to be sufficiently efficient.
Real PvPers get their kicks fighting challenging opponents who can give them a good fight, not killing lowbies. Open world PvP is for gankers and griefers. 'Nuff said.
Er, unless the game is properly developed and there isn't a huge power gap, and there's an incentive not to gank. You sound like you've never played a FFA PVP MMO. At best you've played a PvE MMOs "pvp" server.
You mean like Darkfall, Mortal Online.... both dead.
Darkfall is actually probably the only MMO in the last 6 years that can say that its growing over time, in the same way older MMOs did. The only one that's opened extra servers, not closed servers.
But I guess it's totally dead, just don't tell the publishers that just signed a big deal with Aventurine, or the 30 new developers the team hired.
Mortal Online was always crap, but it wasn't because of the PvP.
Eve is FFA PvP if you happen to recall? And its pretty much the healthiest MMO out there.
The pop is still nothing compared to every other MMO out there Actually it's higher than quite a few. And it does't matter what the pop is, because the budget was nothing compared to most MMOs as well, yet Darkfall is growing, and the 100 million dollar budget games are declining. Darkfall is still a niche game, just like all open world PvP games are. Eve is a niche game, yet it's growing, and has more subs than most MMOs, which is more than can be said for just about any other big budget MMO on the market. It's because (what many people here don't seem to be able to understand) is that you can do an open world PvP game without it being just a gank fest.
Yes EVE is massive ffa PvP, thats why most of the players avoid null sec. Most of the players are in high sec doing missions or mining and playing with the markets, this has been confirmed by CCP What's your point? It's a FFA PvP game that appeals to multiple game styles, shocker. And the game is made more dynamic and interesting by the activities in nul sec.
I personally prefer games like DAoC, with big consentual open world PvP zones. I hate artificial balance. I like simulated war. I'm not into ganking lowbies.
That being said, you people don't seem to understand how most FFA PVP games are designed. You assume that they're all just like the PvP servers tacked on to your favorite PvE WoW clones.
I was questing in AoC, minding my own business in a level 25 area and a level 60 gets off his horse and shoots me in the back with an arrow then rides off. No way I could defend against it. No way I could watch for him and hide when I saw him coming.
With enough efford you can prevent this. E.g. get a group and set up scouts. But it's not worth it do dodge a gank this way, because you lose next to nothing when you get ganked and you win nothing if you successfully dodge a gank.
And the ganker doesn't have to fear anything like a bait. Even if you were a bait to get him unmounted, so your level 60 friends could gank him back, he doesn't lose anything by this, so it's not a risk for him.
Open World PvP and no death penalty just doesn't work together.
People get ganked on the odd occassion as a noob or get caught out from time to time in OW games. This notion that a few asshats ruin a load of peoples fun all the time just has no bearing with the reality of the situation.
If people are getting ganked when they are heading out in the wider, more dangerous regions then that is probably more to do with the fact that they are paying little to no attention to what is going on around them and they are walking around with what is tantamount to a giant bullseye painted on their heads.
I was questing in AoC, minding my own business in a level 25 area and a level 60 gets off his horse and shoots me in the back with an arrow then rides off. No way I could defend against it. No way I could watch for him and hide when I saw him coming.
That's because AoC isn't a FFA PVP game. It's a PvE game with a FFA PVP server tacked on without any forethought or rule changes. Not all FFA PVP games are this way.
the way there is a set path to leveling hurts open pvp in uo ac sb you would have a guild areas that a good guild would protect but now if your lv12 you belong here. the other thing is every player has a non guilded lowbie that they twink nonguilded players used to be kos to 90% of the server now its just accepted. i always loved opvp but i loved it endgame but they stopped open dungeons it took most of the fun out for me. i played to hurt guilds i used to kill lowbies not to kill them but to take the area away from the guild make them bring some higher level people from there leveling to kill me. deny them dungeons so they have to fight me with worse loot. now everyone hunts together and dungeons are instanced so its not that i dont like opvp it just dosent work on the treadmill zones.
Level/gear based game + FFA pvp = fail. FFA needs to be (player) skill based or it just doesn't work and the result is griefers rampart. Even a fresh newbie with good reflexes should have a change to beat any player in game, this is why I support manual targeting instead of autoaim bullshit.
I don't see how the targetting system affects PvP balance between newbies and veterans, but otherwise you are quite right. That's why FFA PvP ends as a gank fest in all MMOs that have it without harsh restrictions.
If the veteran has reflexes of a 90 year old granny and the newbie is some hyperactive FPS junkie, you don't think it balances things?
Comments
I like the thrill of ganking and of being ganked, I like spontaneous battles that arise in quest areas and which completely take your mind off what you were just doing, those things will be something I'll miss in GW2.
However, one should learn to accept that a game can't have everything and that the developers chose to focus on a certain avenue.
There is no such thing as a game that finds the perfect synergy between all possible forms of content.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Just for info, you can "quest" in the WvWvW area - there are a ton of events, and also skill point challenges there, and even different levels of resource nodes for crafting.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/TemperHoof/072012/23486_Guild-Wars-2-Redefines-Open-World-PVP
So you can go "quest" there and get that thrill of potentially be attacked anytime even in GW2 ;-)
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
People get ganked on the odd occassion as a noob or get caught out from time to time in OW games. This notion that a few asshats ruin a load of peoples fun all the time just has no bearing with the reality of the situation.
If people are getting ganked when they are heading out in the wider, more dangerous regions then that is probably more to do with the fact that they are paying little to no attention to what is going on around them and they are walking around with what is tantamount to a giant bullseye painted on their heads.
I've seen far more gameplay ruining ganks in non OW games where people camp out at the edge of pvp lakes, warcamps and other spawn points.
Again though, which one is "best" depends on the game and on the individual players preference at the end of the day. In the case of GW2 I suspect that WvW is by far the best option of the two as it seems far more in keeping with what the game seems to be trying to achieve.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Why so many GW2 funboys trying to compare OWPvP with WvW is beyond of my imagination?!
WvW is isolated PvP zone with predefined sort of battleground, everything is designed and 'balanced' with control nodes and scripted NPCs, repetitive content and only difference will be opposite realms from time to time.
Rest of (*90%) GW2 World is PvE flower picking friendly environment without any danger from PvP confrontation or dueling, even that flower is instanced private node, just in case some dirty 'ninja' snatch it in front of you eyes. Nothing wrong in this design, if you love it, enjoy it, you can even start to sing 'Let the sunshine, let the sunshine in, ...'.
*/ I can only speculate about size of the PvE world map in comparison with WvW map. Don't have real inf.
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
Then you lack imagination....
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Only explanation.
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
I was questing in AoC, minding my own business in a level 25 area and a level 60 gets off his horse and shoots me in the back with an arrow then rides off. No way I could defend against it. No way I could watch for him and hide when I saw him coming. Although not a loot rules game, it still isn't fun to be that out classed. And I can't see it being fun for him except to come here and laugh that someone he killed complained about it. Making the game fun by making it not fun for others shouldn't be a mechanic in any game. Now had he been level capped to me and I could of counter attacked it would be interesting and hypervigilance could protect me. 1 arrow = dead can't be countered. Nor can the expensive mount that has twice my running speed. I would hardly call a level 25 questing area the "wilder, more dangerous regions". And people like this ranger make a habit of circling these areas killing everyone for no good reason but to cause trouble.
Some might respond that I should live with it, level up, and get even, but not everyone lives to be max level. Game developers (sometimes) put a lot of effort into the leveling game. I like to explore that and to see all the world, do the quests, find and complete the rare dungeon or quest.
I am glad GW2 is limiting pvp to WvW areas, although I wouldn't mind if those areas were bigger covering more of the end game.
What I hate about OPVP are those who clearly don't know how to play, but are rewarded for their lack of skill, when they kill opponents that have zero chance to fight back. That includes foes of same level.
What about those annoying "perma-stealth" rogue types who stay hidden and then jump on players. Even if they are same level, they have an advantage, they burn all their stupid CDs and then simply perma-stealth again waiting for their lovely CDs to finish (and their next victim). How "skillful" are those? I'd say they aren't skilled at all.
Same goes with ranged casters with uber 1-shot spells with super high CDs like some special spells in Aion for example. Go in, burn all your CDs, leave like a headless chicken near the safe zone (flying was so silly) wait for CDs, rinse repeat.
The amazing amount of skill required to do something like this is astonishing.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
They are all pretty bad implementations, you havent been exposed to properly implemented Open World PVP, its called prejudice, imagine if you played a bad FPS, I mean a really bad FPS where everytime you shot your character would spin around 3 times and the developer left a bug ingame whereby anyone could also have aimbot by just changing a config.
You then went on the internet and said "Please dont make any more FPS games, they are just people using aimbots with a config change and spinning around 3 times when you try and shoot", that's you, right now, talking about open world pvp
Funny thing is, when I first played Counter Strike I was just like that, "please don't make another game like this one". Unfortunately now the world is full or "realistic" shooter FPS games which I hate, a lot. But that's a different discussion....
Maybe I wasn't exposed properly to Open World PVP, and maybe others who post here are like me. Are there any serious attempts (recent of course don't go 10 years ago) on making a properly implemented Open World PVP?
I've played lots and lots of MMORPGs that had some form of Open PVP, there were always "issues" just like the above I mentioned.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
So you got killed once in a noob area, not sure how that counters my initial point. If you are getting repeatedly killed out in the wilder areas (note you mentioned 1 kill, in a noob area), then more often than not the player is doing something wrong.
If you occasionally get ganked in a noob area, then unless you are completely and utterly against getting killed in such a way, then it really should not be that much of a big deal. Is this guy going around and 1 shotting you every 5 minutes or something? Are you unable to do any exploration at all?
Some individuals will go around stalking noob areas, I've been ganked as a noob before when I had zero chance of fighting back, but that was a rare occasion. Someone could go out of his way to grief me, yet considering total game time, that would make up less than a fraction of a percent. I travelled around as a non armoured, non weapon (leaf blade lol) carrying noob in Darkfall in the first few weeks, wandering from one side of the map to another just looking for Chaos Chests. In that time I got scrubbed a whopping 3 times. I got ganked by two players when trying to open my first Selentine Chest, annoying as hell but within the space of a few days I had another 20 keys, no big loss.
If someone is completely against getting jumped then fair enough. OW is not for everyone, it doesn't make them less able players or less "hardcore", it is just not fun for them. But this notion of noobs getting spanked left, right and centre and not being able to do anything is just something that does not match up with the reality as far as I have seen.
If you are not fussed with levelling up and getting even, why not play on a pve server in AoC and remove the chance altogether btw?
Btw I am glad GW2 is limiting WvWvW areas and the like as it makes the most sense for the game. I wouldn't advocate ramming OW into any game for the sake of it.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Yep and there are always issues with the route that ANet took, just look at any WoW forum, just look at the amount of hate everywhere about maturity of the community, of people calling eachother names and insulting eachother on battlegrounds of people finding ways of griefind their own team cause well you cant do anything about it.
So yeah it is no better. It is a matter of preference, trying to make it pass like WvW will be some silver bullet that will solve all issues, "dont worry guys its ok ANet got you back, dont let those Open World PVP nastys get to you, come to our WvW its much better there is no ganking" is just trying to delude yourself, the problem is shifted somewhere else. I never said Open World PVP was better, it is a personal preference for those who like that type of immersion. There are plenty of ways to deal with the problems you speak off.
Some people would just rather spin anything this game does as the best thing since sliced bread, even picking up apples apparently is a design decision that was written by god himself written in a sheet made of gold, sent directly to the ANet HQ.
It would be a lot better if people wanted to discuss the merits of one and the other, rather than trying to claim "WvW is better than World PVP" and then grasping at straws to try and convince everyone that badly implemented mechanics which encourage ganking and which have been addressed many times during this thread is the reason why WvW is better. What does "Better" even mean in this context, there is so much complexity in the two systems how can you just say one is better than the other?
@OP, WvW does not offer what many (most?) of the open world PvP lovers seek. That is the sense of danger when doing something / anything. Then there's all kinds of people, some just want to fight players in un-expected situation, some want to organize guild fights at any chosen location, some want to gank. There's all kinds of motives that has nothing to do with objective based "organized" and structured PvP, which is WvW. I'm not saying WvW is a bad thing, it's awesome, it's just not the holy replacement of open world PvP, in fact, it is in totally different category. It is a battleground that simply is huge.
Personally I like open world PvP since it brings the open world more alive. Also the spontaneous fights against someone who is not a predictable AI are fun. It's fun to build healthy rivalries also, to have nemesises and whatnot on other factions. Yes factions, I like factions in my mmorpgs. I love open world faction based PvP, there's that extra factional pride and more or less purpose, for the open world PvP.
That's why it wouldnt be as good in GW2 since it lacks factions, and that's why I wont like BG's or WvW either that much in GW2, since you basically kill your friends and neighbours, and everyone looks the same on each of the 3 "factions" in the WvW, even if they are from another realm.
The PvE looks great in this game, cannot wait to participate in it, but the PvP not so much imo. It might be balanced and very good and fun from e-sports and competitive perspective, but I like my PvP with all the extra spices and the stuff I mentioned earlier. Going to give it a shot though, ofcourse, it's half of the pie so I hope I like it at least enough to make the game last longer than what it would without the PvP.
@Zylaxx, PvE servers along the PvP servers, problem solved.
Okay lets get this straight. in gw 2 the core PvE gameplay (cooperative dynamic event) will be ruined if they implemented OWPvP. If the games we are talking about is gw 2, its the fact. WvWvW is better than OWPvP for the whole game (for guild wars 2 its a different topic for other games ). For those who support pvp server for gw 2, then you forgot the whole "we want people to help each other" quote from anet.
FIGHTING AN ELDER DRAGON, SOMEONE COME AND GANK YOU. THE DRAGON GOT STRONGER AND KILL EVERYONE
nope, i dont see what's the point of pvp server
WvW reminds me of UO-Factions after the Trammel/Felucca split, and I love love love that.
I spent a lot of time discussing this subject, right here on MMORPG.com. Always there will be a debate about Open Wold PVP and Guild Wars 2. As I continue to research the topics related to the debate, I always seem to find that one side of the argument --- namely that which stems from those claiming Guild Wars 2 doesn not have Open World PVP --- either haven't played it or are assuming too much without fully understanding it.
I spent a lot of time researching my article, working to study the structure of Word vs World and recorded 8 days worth of footage which I watched and re-watched over and over again to take notes on the subject matter. I'm a PVPer, and I have played several Open World PVP games and somehow my efforts to explain to my fellow PVPers how Guild Wars 2 makes an effort to improve the Open World PVP element in MMORPGs suddenly brands me a villain. Not only just a villain, but apparently an fanboy who is just blindly making stuff up and being overly wishful.
Like the article for Divinity's Reach, I too have done my homework and put care into trying to prepare my argument. But no matter how much I try to state the facts, there is always someone here who just wants more without even taking time to form an argument of their own.
For instance; Raven:
So yeah it is no better....
Some people would just rather spin anything this game does as the best thing since sliced bread, even picking up apples apparently is a design decision that was written by god himself written in a sheet made of gold, sent directly to the ANet HQ.
It would be a lot better if people wanted to discuss the merits of one and the other, rather than trying to claim "WvW is better than World PVP" and then grasping at straws to try and convince everyone that badly implemented mechanics which encourage ganking and which have been addressed many times during this thread is the reason why WvW is better.
Articles like Divinity's Reach do not try to make a spin on things. One of the problems here is that readers much like Raven may not be taking time to understand the approach of the author. Like myself, we strive to form an argument that draws from fact and experience. We've compared the evidence and made an outcome based on our prospective and preferences. There is nothing in either article which stats you have to listen to them --- nor are their statements which suggests that it is sheer perfection.
From my seat, comments such as that are just there for the sake of commenting. There was no effort or thought into constructing the point of view, merely the desire to rapidly spit it out as fast as possible without actually taking time to really look into the subject or physically play it themselves.
Once more Raven goes on to say...
Again my opinion if you think WvW closed environment is better than I respectfully disagree.
So the point of view from Raven's side of the field is that WvW is a closed enviroment. From what I gather, he also makes an effort to state that it is small, controlled, and not enough freedom to make things happen the way you want. etc.
But Raven, have you taken time to consider this?
The Open World PVP population is actually relatively small. While you may argue differently, perhaps by considering me ignorant for stating that --- as an Open World PVPers myself, I know it's small. Furthermore...
ArenaNet has created an MMORPG that they felt was large enough, at launch, for the target audience. In many Open World PVP games, you will likely spend a long time between each encounter. Or vast sections of the game turn into uneventful, useless graveyards of unused, underplayed content because the Open World PVP crowds find little use for those regions. ArenaNet has chosen to streamline it, cut the fat, keep things more straight-forward to allow for more frequent and consistent action to please the diehard PVPer with the ability to quickly drop into the game, find battle, and get the hell on with their lives.
WvW is not as small as you may think, but in comparison to your average Open World PVP server --- yes it's small. But how much of those Open World PVP did you actually use every day? You can't sit here and tell me you dropped into any zone in that Open World PVP game and instantly dropped into a scimish of 20+ players? The only time that happened was in Planet Side, and the only reason that worked is because of the HART Drop Ship and Instant Action --- otherwise the MAJORITY of the world was locked down and NOTHING was going on.
WvW is still very large, but it jam packs a huge population into a small NON-INSTANCED bottle. A Mini-MMORPG if you will. If you'd take the time to actually play and study the game instead of just trying to play the counterpoint just to play the counterpoint, perhaps you'd see that too and see why your fellow Open World PVPers are praising ArenaNET for FINALLY making some improvements on the game type.
Way to take what I said out of context.
"So the point of view from Raven's side of the field is that WvW is a closed enviroment. From what I gather, he also makes an effort to state that it is small, controlled, and not enough freedom to make things happen the way you want. etc."
I would suggest you find out what a closed environment actually means, at no point have I said its small, or that you didnt have the freedom to make things happen the way you want, you should go back and re-read what I said, which was to do with predictability and disconnection with the actual game world. So no I havent taken into account your unrelated comment because that has nothing to do with what I was discussing.
"Articles like Divinity's Reach do not try to make a spin on things. One of the problems here is that readers much like Raven may not be taking time to understand the approach of the author. "
Again what you quoted me on is a direct response to the discussion that was ongoing and is only valid within the context of that same discussion and has no bearing on any analysis I may or may not have done of the original article of the OP.
I applaud you for trying to actually build an argument but your post while it has a lot of words is pretty shallow, you quoted me on something that was only relevant to the local discussion I was having with another user, I dont really know if you actually took the time to read the thread of discussion or just decided to read the last bit and make your own conclusions about it. But you should absolutely read the full discussion I was having BEFORE making the assumption.
You then quote me saying that WvW is a closed system, which it is, then make some sort of assumption or deliberate misdirection that I was claiming a bunch of other things which are again unrelated to me saying "it is a closed system", this could be because you dont know what a closed system is and I suggest you look it up.
Ohh and you also pat yourself on the back for being so great at making good arguments and watching hours of footage before forensically analysing it.
I dont know why you even quoted me on that tbh, you could have just added your own opinion which are the last 3 paragraphs of your post and is the only thing really constructive and of any value.
I recommend Raven, if you want people to take you seriously and actually read your responses and not take then out of context --- you may want to consider breaking away from the Forum system. So far I've made my case, and it's easy to find. You too should also put together an article, gathering your own evidence and trying to make a clear and percise counterpoint. By responding on a forum, you limit the value of your own words. Fewer people read forums, even fewer than that really want to read the entire conversation because much of the language is poor and lacking syntax.
For a lot of people reading forums is like reading a different language. Yet an article has limits and defines a point quite clearly, containing everything you'd ever need or want to say.
So far, you've not really said anything to contrary my points. At the moment, all you've done is just try to defend your own words --- which really doesn't amount to much as those words are indeed your words within the context you wrote them. If you insist I read the rest of other people's posts to see a different context to your words, then you really have a critical lack of understanding when it comes to writing and should seek to mend it.
If you feel you have a solid point of view, take time to put together an article and share it with the rest of the world. You'll get more views and more exposer, and you may ignite more articles which will directly quote you whether you like it or not. What you write needs to not be guarded like a watch-dog by you. You need to let what you write speak for itself, as you're just writing nothing at all and risk looking like a fool when you try to attack or correct others for quoting you.
I dont know why you are still discussing with me about how to make arguments, or why you decided to quote me at all, afaik I am still entitled to discuss what I want with whom I want within the topic, I have no idea why you decided to pick my name probably at random, feel free to share your opinion with people that care. Just don't take what I say out of context, because the point you were trying to make has nothing to do with what I said.
In case you didnt get it, I didnt argue for the sake of argument, there is a difference between you understanding a discussion I was having with someone else and me arguing for the sake of it, and I never said WvW was small, and I quote "So the point of view from Raven's side of the field is that WvW is a closed enviroment. From what I gather, he also makes an effort to state that it is small, controlled, and not enough freedom to make things happen the way you want. etc." I never said these things.
And I quote "Articles like Divinity's Reach do not try to make a spin on things.",what you quoted me on had nothing to do with Divinity's Reach article it was a discussion with someone else completely unrelated to it.
Edit: As a matter of fact I dont really care if you quote me or not, just pointing out that a) you pretended I said something which I didnt and then proceeded to build a case against an argument I never had and never said, b) I never commented on anything that was directed at the Divinity's Reach article which again you assumed without any attempt to understand the context in which I was stating my opinion.
Is it efficient or at least of the same magnitude as other PvE grinding outside of the Mists? It might not be important for every person, but for me it is important that the "dangerous PvE" needs to be sufficiently efficient.
I personally prefer games like DAoC, with big consentual open world PvP zones. I hate artificial balance. I like simulated war. I'm not into ganking lowbies.
That being said, you people don't seem to understand how most FFA PVP games are designed. You assume that they're all just like the PvP servers tacked on to your favorite PvE WoW clones.
With enough efford you can prevent this. E.g. get a group and set up scouts. But it's not worth it do dodge a gank this way, because you lose next to nothing when you get ganked and you win nothing if you successfully dodge a gank.
And the ganker doesn't have to fear anything like a bait. Even if you were a bait to get him unmounted, so your level 60 friends could gank him back, he doesn't lose anything by this, so it's not a risk for him.
Open World PvP and no death penalty just doesn't work together.
That's because AoC isn't a FFA PVP game. It's a PvE game with a FFA PVP server tacked on without any forethought or rule changes. Not all FFA PVP games are this way.
the way there is a set path to leveling hurts open pvp in uo ac sb you would have a guild areas that a good guild would protect but now if your lv12 you belong here. the other thing is every player has a non guilded lowbie that they twink nonguilded players used to be kos to 90% of the server now its just accepted. i always loved opvp but i loved it endgame but they stopped open dungeons it took most of the fun out for me. i played to hurt guilds i used to kill lowbies not to kill them but to take the area away from the guild make them bring some higher level people from there leveling to kill me. deny them dungeons so they have to fight me with worse loot. now everyone hunts together and dungeons are instanced so its not that i dont like opvp it just dosent work on the treadmill zones.
If the veteran has reflexes of a 90 year old granny and the newbie is some hyperactive FPS junkie, you don't think it balances things?