The only oPvP game I've thoroughly enjoyed was Planetside and EVE. Darkfall could have been great had it not been made by amateurs
I'm not really a fan of instanced pvp, however. I'd rather play a round of battlefield than join a Battleground in WoW/swtor/etc.
The WvWvW thing in GW2 looks a little interesting, but I'm trying to research as little as possible about this game so that the waiting won't be so hard if I get hyped for it
The problem with mmorpg is that it is completely inconsistent when it come to pvp. Mmorpg taken generally, support the totally wrong things when it come to pvp.
First a lot of mmo player hate pvp, the open world pvp type. They just hate when their unkillable toon have to respawn( from that angle it look silly right?), even if it mean they forbid their games to access the core roles any kind of role playing game should have: the good and the bad guy. Let be honest here, without open world pvp those 2 roles are just impossible, they are just "pretending" not role playing, which is different in mmorpg. But ye obviously this lack of "role playing" seam pretty fine for a lot of people, they will rather give away this pillar aspect rather than be "victims" in their games, which is understandable honestly. I'm not sure i support this choice (in fact i don't support it), but it is understandable at least. So ye OWpvp is still better imo here, even if those game are horrible for many people, the superiority of such system is pretty straight forward.
But this is where is worst inconsistency imo. Let be honest here, pvp in mmo are totally unbalanced, they never wanted to be balanced, they want to be unbalanced. It all come down to "who pay the game company the most get an edge in pvp", be it sub that will get you better level and gear, or cash shop, or wild rmt, in the end it all comes down to money. And imo this is why it's like this, game company want this income so they sell that balance away for it. And the funny part is that you have a bunch of people defending this aspect in the name of role playing. Role playing is about building a character, so getting more level and gear, which make you stronger, "you should work for it". This is where WvW is obviously so much better, since they got rid of this crap, they made anyone accessing pvp be on a fair level. Obviously game where you can buy your victory are just simulacrum of "player vs player" there is no versus if you pay the victory, exactly as it is in our real word games like sport. Hence the e-sport stuff.
So OWpvp and WvW? i'm not sure one is better than the other, both have their strength. One is the true rpg, the other one is the real pvp game.
What i wish i could see in the future is an open world pvp game that is not made for retards that can buy their victory with their money in the name of role playing. Let us pk, let us jump sometime on "noobs", but damn it, at least let those "victims" a chance to retaliate and give the offender a good lesson. There is a world between being the victim of the bad guy and being the helpless victim. We have a long road ahead though, because it's pretty clear not a single game designer want to make this happen. Obviously game companies doesn't seam that eager to drop their bests and easiest income sources. At least Anet made a first step, it was about time, now let see what the open world guys can do (those guys seam to really love the grind and i think we all know why)?
There is a huge difference in a PvPer and a PKer. Guild Wars 2 will deffinately appeal to a large majority of PvPers. Believe me i know the appeal of traditional open world pvp coming from Conquer Online 1.0 which was equally if not more brutal then Ultima. It builds rivalry through-out the server, It can get you rich, It's very fun to start wars anywhere in the world, the constant danger no matter where you go. Believe me I get it and I love it. But I'm a PvPer, I want a challange when I'm killing somebody, I like balance, I love mass PvP, I love alot of skill involved in the PvP itself, I hate gear and levels being a determining facter if I'm a better player then the person trying to kill me. These factors outweigh those in open PvP by a mile.. Guild Wars 2 matches and surpasses in every one of them.
If WoW was released today even in its' entirety it would be f2p in 3 months. Why is it still such a big deal?
Ironically GW2 has everything needed for a perfect open world PvP game, if they would mix the dynamic events and the WvW setting with eachother in an open world.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
The WvW area is a parallel world where one can do everything he does in the normal (PvE) world, except that he's in permanent danger of being attacked/ganked.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Ironically GW2 has everything needed for a perfect open world PvP game, if they would mix the dynamic events and the WvW setting with eachother in an open world.
Funny thing is, they do that.
WvW has a lot of dynamic events throughout each map. As well as the same types of PvE elements you find in the standard PvE environment.
The main difference is the PvE area has a lot more zones, and is generally more packed with PvE (denser). The tradeoff is it also doesn't have castles, outposts, or supply depots.
A lot of the gripes of the game not having 'true open world pvp' comes from people looking at it like 1 whole game, believing that all elements should be sandwiched together. As soon as you look at it as 2 games that share the same lore and characters, it's really no different.
The WvW area is a parallel world where one can do everything he does in the normal (PvE) world, except that he's in permanent danger of being attacked/ganked.
If I remember right, a dev said they would be expanding on that, so that you could do just about everything in the WvW, that you can do in the PvE side of GW2, short of the personal story.
open world pvp simply does not work, never ever did.
whoever asks for open world pvp is plain and simply a ganker or never played open world pvp.
good we talked about it. next topìc?
I know you are joking, but the sad thing is that some people actually believe this
Yep, that is a sad reality, and it is very difficult to actually try and have a properly constructed discussion because people keep presenting the same argument over and over and over again. And it gets tiring, because even though you, me and others have constantly repeated what is the appeal of open world pvp, the ones that have their mind made up choose to ignore it, and then we get into a situation, like in the last 5 pages of this thread where people who like Open World PVP have to regurgitate the same explaination over and over again, only to get dismissed by "but the gankers!".
A closed system that is a disconnect from the game world might be suitable and enough for some but it isnt for others, then there are people claiming that WvW is exactly the same as open world pvp, if this was the case why wouldnt they just remove the closed system link, why not allow the actions to happen in the game world rather than behind some door labelled "go here to fight", the concept of instance while still used on most MMOs goes completely against the core of what it is to be an MMORPG, which at its core is based on persistance and simulation. And sure you can have a great simulation inside an instanced world that gets reset once in a while, but then it goes against the other core principles persistence and continuity, and that some people just can't understand.
I also acknowledge that this is just really a discussion board and whatever we decide to discuss here will have no bearing on the outcome of the game or its reception, its akin to being a football supporter where "everyone's a coach". If WoWs popularity is to be used as a measure of popular demand then yeah I fear we are moving away from anything world related, and we should expect things to be more chat room like and queue for activity in the future. Which is why I have been leaning lately more towards games like Skyrim which have a more world sandbox oriented structure and I think that may be where I get my fix when they decide to possibly add some sort of co-op mode so I can play with a few of my friends. Not because I wouldnt love large scale simulations but because I fear it wont happen again.
Yep, that is a sad reality, and it is very difficult to actually try and have a properly constructed discussion because people keep presenting the same argument over and over and over again. And it gets tiring, because even though you, me and others have constantly repeated what is the appeal of open world pvp, the ones that have their mind made up choose to ignore it, and then we get into a situation, like in the last 5 pages of this thread where people who like Open World PVP have to regurgitate the same explaination over and over again, only to get dismissed by "but the gankers!".
A closed system that is a disconnect from the game world might be suitable and enough for some but it isnt for others, then there are people claiming that WvW is exactly the same as open world pvp, if this was the case why wouldnt they just remove the closed system link, why not allow the actions to happen in the game world rather than behind some door labelled "go here to fight", the concept of instance while still used on most MMOs goes completely against the core of what it is to be an MMORPG, which at its core is based on persistance and simulation. And sure you can have a great simulation inside an instanced world that gets reset once in a while, but then it goes against the other core principles persistence and continuity, and that some people just can't understand.
I also acknowledge that this is just really a discussion board and whatever we decide to discuss here will have no bearing on the outcome of the game or its reception, its akin to being a football supporter where "everyone's a coach". If WoWs popularity is to be used as a measure of popular demand then yeah I fear we are moving away from anything world related, and we should expect things to be more chat room like and queue for activity in the future.
Look at it this way, those who like Open PVP can see Guild Wars 2 as only the WvWvW, I know lots of people who will only play in WvWvW and not do anything else, others will try both WvWvW and PVE, others will try sPVP as well. It's a matter of choice. If you only spend your time in WvWvW your argument of a "closed" or "disconnected" system is invalid. Go play the game there and forget about the rest of it, why is that so hard to understand? And in that regard a comparison between Open PVP and WvWvW can be made on equal terms.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Yep, that is a sad reality, and it is very difficult to actually try and have a properly constructed discussion because people keep presenting the same argument over and over and over again. And it gets tiring, because even though you, me and others have constantly repeated what is the appeal of open world pvp, the ones that have their mind made up choose to ignore it, and then we get into a situation, like in the last 5 pages of this thread where people who like Open World PVP have to regurgitate the same explaination over and over again, only to get dismissed by "but the gankers!".
A closed system that is a disconnect from the game world might be suitable and enough for some but it isnt for others, then there are people claiming that WvW is exactly the same as open world pvp, if this was the case why wouldnt they just remove the closed system link, why not allow the actions to happen in the game world rather than behind some door labelled "go here to fight", the concept of instance while still used on most MMOs goes completely against the core of what it is to be an MMORPG, which at its core is based on persistance and simulation. And sure you can have a great simulation inside an instanced world that gets reset once in a while, but then it goes against the other core principles persistence and continuity, and that some people just can't understand.
I also acknowledge that this is just really a discussion board and whatever we decide to discuss here will have no bearing on the outcome of the game or its reception, its akin to being a football supporter where "everyone's a coach". If WoWs popularity is to be used as a measure of popular demand then yeah I fear we are moving away from anything world related, and we should expect things to be more chat room like and queue for activity in the future.
Look at it this way, those who like Open PVP can see Guild Wars 2 as only the WvWvW, I know lots of people who will only play in WvWvW and not do anything else, others will try both WvWvW and PVE, others will try sPVP as well. It's a matter of choice. If you only spend your time in WvWvW your argument of a "closed" or "disconnected" system is invalid. Go play the game there and forget about the rest of it, why is that so hard to understand? And in that regard a comparison between Open PVP and WvWvW can be made on equal terms.
No because the simulation is broken, imagine Flight Simulator, but instead of it being properly streamed world, when you were on the ground you are in an instance, and when you want to take off it just plays a loading screen and your plane appears mid air. Sure you can argue is the same but the simulation is broken, the persistence is broken. There is a disconnect and a discontinuity between these two closed systems.
That is as close as I can explain how I feel about the two systems and their difference and why it is relevant for MMOs to keep the world persistence and simulation. This is again my own opinion and as I have explained before obviously doesnt reflect popular demand as I mentioned from WoW people want to login and jump straight into whatever activity they dont really care about the simulation aspect, I remember when Blizzard removed the need to even go and discover the entrance to an instance before you could queue cause people couldn't even be arsed to fly to the instance entrance before they could from then on queue freely to it from anywhere.
Look at it this way, those who like Open PVP can see Guild Wars 2 as only the WvWvW, I know lots of people who will only play in WvWvW and not do anything else, others will try both WvWvW and PVE, others will try sPVP as well. It's a matter of choice. If you only spend your time in WvWvW your argument of a "closed" or "disconnected" system is invalid. Go play the game there and forget about the rest of it, why is that so hard to understand? And in that regard a comparison between Open PVP and WvWvW can be made on equal terms.
Well yes and no. People can spend their time in WvW but they can step outside of that at any time they want. It is a game within a game just in the same way as any arena is a game within a game. It is a separate area with a vastly different ruleset.
Within the greater game it is indeed a closed, disconected environment. You could spend your entire gaming time in WAR just running scenarios. WvW is simply a large pvp zone, yes you can level in it and stay there if you like, but it is still a zone all the same.
Don't get me wrong, it is the right thing for the game as far as I am concerned.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Look at it this way, those who like Open PVP can see Guild Wars 2 as only the WvWvW, I know lots of people who will only play in WvWvW and not do anything else, others will try both WvWvW and PVE, others will try sPVP as well. It's a matter of choice. If you only spend your time in WvWvW your argument of a "closed" or "disconnected" system is invalid. Go play the game there and forget about the rest of it, why is that so hard to understand? And in that regard a comparison between Open PVP and WvWvW can be made on equal terms.
Well yes and no. People can spend their time in WvW but they can step outside of that at any time they want. It is a game within a game just in the same way as any arena is a game within a game. It is a separate area with a vastly different ruleset.
Within the greater game it is indeed a closed, disconected environment. You could spend your entire gaming time in WAR just running scenarios. WvW is simply a large pvp zone, yes you can level in it and stay there if you like, but it is still a zone all the same.
Don't get me wrong, it is the right thing for the game as far as I am concerned.
Yep and I agree that GW2 isnt designed with the kind of simulation I am talking about in mind, games need to implement what is suitable to achieve their goal and the experience they want to provide.
No because the simulation is broken, imagine Flight Simulator, but instead of it being properly streamed world, when you were on the ground you are in an instance, and when you want to take off it just plays a loading screen and your plane appears mid air. Sure you can argue is the same but the simulation is broken, the persistence is broken. There is a disconnect and a discontinuity between these two closed systems.
That is as close as I can explain how I feel about the two systems and their difference and why it is relevant for MMOs to keep the world persistence and simulation.
There is no simulation in a game though. And it's not like WvWvW zone is somewhere between the PVE zones, it's completely separate from PVE, you don't have to go through WvWvW to go to PVE or through PVE to go to WvWvW. It's like your whole game is the WvWvW zones. Streaming wouldn't work in WvWvW, each borderland is occupied by a different "server" and they change every two weeks, so from a technical standpoint streaming would be hard to implement in the game.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
No because the simulation is broken, imagine Flight Simulator, but instead of it being properly streamed world, when you were on the ground you are in an instance, and when you want to take off it just plays a loading screen and your plane appears mid air. Sure you can argue is the same but the simulation is broken, the persistence is broken. There is a disconnect and a discontinuity between these two closed systems.
That is as close as I can explain how I feel about the two systems and their difference and why it is relevant for MMOs to keep the world persistence and simulation.
There is no simulation in a game though. And it's not like WvWvW zone is somewhere between the PVE zones, it's completely separate from PVE, you don't have to go through WvWvW to go to PVE or through PVE to go to WvWvW. It's like your whole game is the WvWvW zones. Streaming wouldn't work in WvWvW, each borderland is occupied by a different "server" and they change every two weeks, so from a technical standpoint streaming would be hard to implement in the game.
I know there is no simulation ( see my above post ), but simulation for me personally ( in my opinion ) is a large part as to why I play and played MMOs for the last nearly 15 years, because they provided or used to provide a world simulation, you were suppose to integrate into a world and have a role in it, this has been replaced by mini games and closed off areas where you are supposed to do something, this is where you ride a bike, this is where you shoot people, this is where you setup your shop.
From a technical standpoint I think you are wrong, there are plenty of solutions to this problem already some have even been implemented by the likes of EVE and even WoW, it all comes down on what investment does ANet want to make and whether they had the time and budget to do it, but that is another discussion.
Raven should read some Michael Moorcock books (Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, etc..., the Multiverse).
A plane which is the battleground between several different parallel universes is something that exists in very good fantasy and sci-fi books. In GW2, each server is a different plane of existence, and some randomly happen to "collide" and meet at a point called "The Mists".
I have no problem with that - and it doesn't break any immersion or "simulation" for me - I've read dozens of books with a similar concept.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Raven should read some Michael Moorcock books (Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, etc..., the Multiverse).
A plane which is the battleground between several different parallel universes is something that exists in very good fantasy and sci-fi books. In GW2, each server is a different plane of existence, and some randomly happen to "collide" and meet at a point called "The Mists".
I have no problem with that - and it doesn't break any immersion or "simulation" for me - I've read dozens of books with a similar concept.
Yep and its fine if that is the premise, but when I play flight simulator and I read on the box that it is a plane simulator based on you flying a plane around the world, I expect it to be that, if I suddently get a loading screen after takeoff and find myself on the surface of the moon, I would feel like it hasnt delivered on the simulation I bought ( not saying this is the case for GW2, I know exactly how it is going to be, but just to put it into perspective ). I am a fairly hardcore fan of Tolkien fantasy, and for instance LoTRO to me is an abomination that completely failed to capture the essence of the IP. To truly capture Tolkien it would be a modified version of Mortal Online ( done correctly and with features working ofc ) in my opinion.
So it is only fair to say that I have my own taste and that my opinion reflects that :P
But thank you for the recommendations I have a go at reading one of those books.
I know there is no simulation ( see my above post ), but simulation for me personally ( in my opinion ) is a large part as to why I play and played MMOs for the last nearly 15 years, because they provided or used to provide a world simulation, you were suppose to integrate into a world and have a role in it, this has been replaced by mini games and closed off areas where you are supposed to do something, this is where you ride a bike, this is where you shoot people, this is where you setup your shop.
From a technical standpoint I think you are wrong, there are plenty of solutions to this problem already some have even been implemented by the likes of EVE and even WoW, it all comes down on what investment does ANet want to make and whether they had the time and budget to do it, but that is another discussion.
With your Flight Simulator example, isn't it the same if I'm blocked by a unsually tall mountain? Or "the end of the world"? How many game actually offer the entire world as the play field? Guild Wars universe is pretty large and I can't imagine seeing the whole of it any time soon, some kind of barrier had to be in the game, even if there weren't instanced zones there would have been a barrier, only the world would have been much much larger.
As for the technical problem, I wasn't talking about the PVE part, of course there are examples of games who do streaming of content right. The problem is with WvWvW, how are you going to "stream" the content when each borderland is dominated by a particular server. Those borderlands change hands every two weeks, one week server A is blue, next week they are red. It's not an easy task to change those sides without having separate zones. All castles/forts/camps must change hands, players must disappear and appear at their own borderland (on a new battlefield) etc. I can't imagine how to do this with streaming but maybe it could be done I'm not the lead expert I just don't know about streaming and personally can't see a way to do it.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I know there is no simulation ( see my above post ), but simulation for me personally ( in my opinion ) is a large part as to why I play and played MMOs for the last nearly 15 years, because they provided or used to provide a world simulation, you were suppose to integrate into a world and have a role in it, this has been replaced by mini games and closed off areas where you are supposed to do something, this is where you ride a bike, this is where you shoot people, this is where you setup your shop.
From a technical standpoint I think you are wrong, there are plenty of solutions to this problem already some have even been implemented by the likes of EVE and even WoW, it all comes down on what investment does ANet want to make and whether they had the time and budget to do it, but that is another discussion.
With your Flight Simulator example, isn't it the same if I'm blocked by a unsually tall mountain? Or "the end of the world"? How many game actually offer the entire world as the play field? Guild Wars universe is pretty large and I can't imagine seeing the whole of it any time soon, some kind of barrier had to be in the game, even if there weren't instanced zones there would have been a barrier, only the world would have been much much larger.
As for the technical problem, I wasn't talking about the PVE part, of course there are examples of games who do streaming of content right. The problem is with WvWvW, how are you going to "stream" the content when each borderland is dominated by a particular server. Those borderlands change hands every two weeks, one week server A is blue, next week they are red. It's not an easy task to change those sides without having separate zones. All castles/forts/camps must change hands, players must disappear and appear at their own borderland (on a new battlefield) etc. I can't imagine how to do this with streaming but maybe it could be done I'm not the lead expert I just don't know about streaming and personally can't see a way to do it.
From a technical standpoint when servers own that part of the map it can still be done through clever use of server clusters. There are also ways to seamless stream between server clusters, i.e. your world server and a shared server cluster.
Regarding your original point about world as a play field, at one point in my life I worked for a defense contractor which built training simulation software for Navy, Military and Air Force for different countries around the world, our main tech consisted of essentially a world streaming technology, we had height data from the entire world down to 100meters resolution that could be streamed and rendered, so you could essentially build a simulation on any part of the world or even on the entire world. It has been more than 5 years since I left this company. This also ran on what today are medium low end machines, its just a note tha the tech is there already to do this sort of thing.
Edit: Just realized this was going too offtopic, as a little conclusion you are right, its just my personal taste, doesnt mean I wont enjoy WvW, which I will most definately enjoy, but I would rather it was all in the world rather than in instances, I appreciate the server vs server stuff they are doing which is pretty cool and a real stop forward towards removing server barriers, which EVE already does but obviously an empty space streaming engine is a lot less complex than attempting to simulate a world.
I honetly think that open-world PvP was left out of GW2 to promote a sense of community within each server. From all of the dynamic events to questing to WvW. The game has been built on people helping people and having fun together. I believe open-world PvP would undermind this aspec of the game.
I understand that there is still arena style PvP that takes place within the server against your fellow server mates but you're not ganking and/or getting ganked while trying to XP and I think for that reason it will stay more fun than drama-filled like open-world PvP.
I have played all types of MMOs some with PvP some without (FFXI and Aion for an example) and I prefer the direction that GW2 is going in for PvP. In my opinion there was not enough PvP in FFXI and a little too much in Aion.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Ironically GW2 has everything needed for a perfect open world PvP game, if they would mix the dynamic events and the WvW setting with eachother in an open world.
Although i wish this game succes because i really enjoy it, and how they changed the combat system plus more. I fear i won't be playing for so long because it has no open world pvp. Open world pvp is the best endgame anyone could ask for tbh, its just one map which is good for anet because it will be less money to add content to the game, for pvp that is.
sPVP is very limited, ya they added a new map but that makes it what 3-4?
WvW is ok, but it not anything like a true open world pvp where you grab soloers and do small groups/1v1 fights. It is a place where servers raid up and fight...which would be kind of annoying to people who enjoy 1v1/small group. I can back this up because i have already seen this on beta.
In the end, people might not play this game for so long due to limited pvp but then again they could always add more pvp content. ATM i don't feel they have so much of that but its just the launch so i don't expect anything big.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Ironically GW2 has everything needed for a perfect open world PvP game, if they would mix the dynamic events and the WvW setting with eachother in an open world.
Real PvPers get their kicks fighting challenging opponents who can give them a good fight, not killing lowbies. Open world PvP is for gankers and griefers. 'Nuff said.
When I did play WoW, I always had my arena rogue or priest mains parked where my lowbies were leveling. I never once got a good fight out of someone that ganked my lowbies. They were sh#$ty players that couldn't do well in big boy pvp so they ganked lowbies they knew they had a chance with, lol. Corpse camp them and they release to graveyard and find a new area to go ganking lowbies.
Ganking lowbies, isn't challenging and it is just a waste of time.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Ironically GW2 has everything needed for a perfect open world PvP game, if they would mix the dynamic events and the WvW setting with eachother in an open world.
Your blog post is really funny. You use the following defenition to call WVW OWPVP
"Combat can occur between players in a non-instanced fashion anywhere in the game world where permitted by the server rule-set. Virtually all Open World PvP games place some limit on where and/or when this type of PvP can occur. This is typically done by zone, area, or character level. Regardless of the restriction, if this type of combat can occur, it is considered Open World PvP."
So, you twist words to suit the situation. Fine. Using the same definition above, the fight cliubs in TSW are OWPVP too. Hey easy.
Comments
The only oPvP game I've thoroughly enjoyed was Planetside and EVE. Darkfall could have been great had it not been made by amateurs
I'm not really a fan of instanced pvp, however. I'd rather play a round of battlefield than join a Battleground in WoW/swtor/etc.
The WvWvW thing in GW2 looks a little interesting, but I'm trying to research as little as possible about this game so that the waiting won't be so hard if I get hyped for it
The problem with mmorpg is that it is completely inconsistent when it come to pvp. Mmorpg taken generally, support the totally wrong things when it come to pvp.
First a lot of mmo player hate pvp, the open world pvp type. They just hate when their unkillable toon have to respawn( from that angle it look silly right?), even if it mean they forbid their games to access the core roles any kind of role playing game should have: the good and the bad guy. Let be honest here, without open world pvp those 2 roles are just impossible, they are just "pretending" not role playing, which is different in mmorpg. But ye obviously this lack of "role playing" seam pretty fine for a lot of people, they will rather give away this pillar aspect rather than be "victims" in their games, which is understandable honestly. I'm not sure i support this choice (in fact i don't support it), but it is understandable at least. So ye OWpvp is still better imo here, even if those game are horrible for many people, the superiority of such system is pretty straight forward.
But this is where is worst inconsistency imo. Let be honest here, pvp in mmo are totally unbalanced, they never wanted to be balanced, they want to be unbalanced. It all come down to "who pay the game company the most get an edge in pvp", be it sub that will get you better level and gear, or cash shop, or wild rmt, in the end it all comes down to money. And imo this is why it's like this, game company want this income so they sell that balance away for it. And the funny part is that you have a bunch of people defending this aspect in the name of role playing. Role playing is about building a character, so getting more level and gear, which make you stronger, "you should work for it". This is where WvW is obviously so much better, since they got rid of this crap, they made anyone accessing pvp be on a fair level. Obviously game where you can buy your victory are just simulacrum of "player vs player" there is no versus if you pay the victory, exactly as it is in our real word games like sport. Hence the e-sport stuff.
So OWpvp and WvW? i'm not sure one is better than the other, both have their strength. One is the true rpg, the other one is the real pvp game.
What i wish i could see in the future is an open world pvp game that is not made for retards that can buy their victory with their money in the name of role playing. Let us pk, let us jump sometime on "noobs", but damn it, at least let those "victims" a chance to retaliate and give the offender a good lesson. There is a world between being the victim of the bad guy and being the helpless victim. We have a long road ahead though, because it's pretty clear not a single game designer want to make this happen. Obviously game companies doesn't seam that eager to drop their bests and easiest income sources. At least Anet made a first step, it was about time, now let see what the open world guys can do (those guys seam to really love the grind and i think we all know why)?
There is a huge difference in a PvPer and a PKer. Guild Wars 2 will deffinately appeal to a large majority of PvPers. Believe me i know the appeal of traditional open world pvp coming from Conquer Online 1.0 which was equally if not more brutal then Ultima. It builds rivalry through-out the server, It can get you rich, It's very fun to start wars anywhere in the world, the constant danger no matter where you go. Believe me I get it and I love it. But I'm a PvPer, I want a challange when I'm killing somebody, I like balance, I love mass PvP, I love alot of skill involved in the PvP itself, I hate gear and levels being a determining facter if I'm a better player then the person trying to kill me. These factors outweigh those in open PvP by a mile.. Guild Wars 2 matches and surpasses in every one of them.
If WoW was released today even in its' entirety it would be f2p in 3 months.
Why is it still such a big deal?
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Read TemperHoof's article. I had linked it already before her intervetion.
The WvW area is a parallel world where one can do everything he does in the normal (PvE) world, except that he's in permanent danger of being attacked/ganked.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Funny thing is, they do that.
WvW has a lot of dynamic events throughout each map. As well as the same types of PvE elements you find in the standard PvE environment.
The main difference is the PvE area has a lot more zones, and is generally more packed with PvE (denser). The tradeoff is it also doesn't have castles, outposts, or supply depots.
A lot of the gripes of the game not having 'true open world pvp' comes from people looking at it like 1 whole game, believing that all elements should be sandwiched together. As soon as you look at it as 2 games that share the same lore and characters, it's really no different.
open world pvp simply does not work, never ever did.
whoever asks for open world pvp is plain and simply a ganker or never played open world pvp.
good we talked about it. next topìc?
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
If I remember right, a dev said they would be expanding on that, so that you could do just about everything in the WvW, that you can do in the PvE side of GW2, short of the personal story.
Thats pretty exciting to me.
Yep, that is a sad reality, and it is very difficult to actually try and have a properly constructed discussion because people keep presenting the same argument over and over and over again. And it gets tiring, because even though you, me and others have constantly repeated what is the appeal of open world pvp, the ones that have their mind made up choose to ignore it, and then we get into a situation, like in the last 5 pages of this thread where people who like Open World PVP have to regurgitate the same explaination over and over again, only to get dismissed by "but the gankers!".
A closed system that is a disconnect from the game world might be suitable and enough for some but it isnt for others, then there are people claiming that WvW is exactly the same as open world pvp, if this was the case why wouldnt they just remove the closed system link, why not allow the actions to happen in the game world rather than behind some door labelled "go here to fight", the concept of instance while still used on most MMOs goes completely against the core of what it is to be an MMORPG, which at its core is based on persistance and simulation. And sure you can have a great simulation inside an instanced world that gets reset once in a while, but then it goes against the other core principles persistence and continuity, and that some people just can't understand.
I also acknowledge that this is just really a discussion board and whatever we decide to discuss here will have no bearing on the outcome of the game or its reception, its akin to being a football supporter where "everyone's a coach". If WoWs popularity is to be used as a measure of popular demand then yeah I fear we are moving away from anything world related, and we should expect things to be more chat room like and queue for activity in the future. Which is why I have been leaning lately more towards games like Skyrim which have a more world sandbox oriented structure and I think that may be where I get my fix when they decide to possibly add some sort of co-op mode so I can play with a few of my friends. Not because I wouldnt love large scale simulations but because I fear it wont happen again.
Look at it this way, those who like Open PVP can see Guild Wars 2 as only the WvWvW, I know lots of people who will only play in WvWvW and not do anything else, others will try both WvWvW and PVE, others will try sPVP as well. It's a matter of choice. If you only spend your time in WvWvW your argument of a "closed" or "disconnected" system is invalid. Go play the game there and forget about the rest of it, why is that so hard to understand? And in that regard a comparison between Open PVP and WvWvW can be made on equal terms.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
No because the simulation is broken, imagine Flight Simulator, but instead of it being properly streamed world, when you were on the ground you are in an instance, and when you want to take off it just plays a loading screen and your plane appears mid air. Sure you can argue is the same but the simulation is broken, the persistence is broken. There is a disconnect and a discontinuity between these two closed systems.
That is as close as I can explain how I feel about the two systems and their difference and why it is relevant for MMOs to keep the world persistence and simulation. This is again my own opinion and as I have explained before obviously doesnt reflect popular demand as I mentioned from WoW people want to login and jump straight into whatever activity they dont really care about the simulation aspect, I remember when Blizzard removed the need to even go and discover the entrance to an instance before you could queue cause people couldn't even be arsed to fly to the instance entrance before they could from then on queue freely to it from anywhere.
Well yes and no. People can spend their time in WvW but they can step outside of that at any time they want. It is a game within a game just in the same way as any arena is a game within a game. It is a separate area with a vastly different ruleset.
Within the greater game it is indeed a closed, disconected environment. You could spend your entire gaming time in WAR just running scenarios. WvW is simply a large pvp zone, yes you can level in it and stay there if you like, but it is still a zone all the same.
Don't get me wrong, it is the right thing for the game as far as I am concerned.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Yep and I agree that GW2 isnt designed with the kind of simulation I am talking about in mind, games need to implement what is suitable to achieve their goal and the experience they want to provide.
There is no simulation in a game though. And it's not like WvWvW zone is somewhere between the PVE zones, it's completely separate from PVE, you don't have to go through WvWvW to go to PVE or through PVE to go to WvWvW. It's like your whole game is the WvWvW zones. Streaming wouldn't work in WvWvW, each borderland is occupied by a different "server" and they change every two weeks, so from a technical standpoint streaming would be hard to implement in the game.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I know there is no simulation ( see my above post ), but simulation for me personally ( in my opinion ) is a large part as to why I play and played MMOs for the last nearly 15 years, because they provided or used to provide a world simulation, you were suppose to integrate into a world and have a role in it, this has been replaced by mini games and closed off areas where you are supposed to do something, this is where you ride a bike, this is where you shoot people, this is where you setup your shop.
From a technical standpoint I think you are wrong, there are plenty of solutions to this problem already some have even been implemented by the likes of EVE and even WoW, it all comes down on what investment does ANet want to make and whether they had the time and budget to do it, but that is another discussion.
Raven should read some Michael Moorcock books (Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, etc..., the Multiverse).
A plane which is the battleground between several different parallel universes is something that exists in very good fantasy and sci-fi books. In GW2, each server is a different plane of existence, and some randomly happen to "collide" and meet at a point called "The Mists".
I have no problem with that - and it doesn't break any immersion or "simulation" for me - I've read dozens of books with a similar concept.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Yep and its fine if that is the premise, but when I play flight simulator and I read on the box that it is a plane simulator based on you flying a plane around the world, I expect it to be that, if I suddently get a loading screen after takeoff and find myself on the surface of the moon, I would feel like it hasnt delivered on the simulation I bought ( not saying this is the case for GW2, I know exactly how it is going to be, but just to put it into perspective ). I am a fairly hardcore fan of Tolkien fantasy, and for instance LoTRO to me is an abomination that completely failed to capture the essence of the IP. To truly capture Tolkien it would be a modified version of Mortal Online ( done correctly and with features working ofc ) in my opinion.
So it is only fair to say that I have my own taste and that my opinion reflects that :P
But thank you for the recommendations I have a go at reading one of those books.
With your Flight Simulator example, isn't it the same if I'm blocked by a unsually tall mountain? Or "the end of the world"? How many game actually offer the entire world as the play field? Guild Wars universe is pretty large and I can't imagine seeing the whole of it any time soon, some kind of barrier had to be in the game, even if there weren't instanced zones there would have been a barrier, only the world would have been much much larger.
As for the technical problem, I wasn't talking about the PVE part, of course there are examples of games who do streaming of content right. The problem is with WvWvW, how are you going to "stream" the content when each borderland is dominated by a particular server. Those borderlands change hands every two weeks, one week server A is blue, next week they are red. It's not an easy task to change those sides without having separate zones. All castles/forts/camps must change hands, players must disappear and appear at their own borderland (on a new battlefield) etc. I can't imagine how to do this with streaming but maybe it could be done I'm not the lead expert I just don't know about streaming and personally can't see a way to do it.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
From a technical standpoint when servers own that part of the map it can still be done through clever use of server clusters. There are also ways to seamless stream between server clusters, i.e. your world server and a shared server cluster.
Regarding your original point about world as a play field, at one point in my life I worked for a defense contractor which built training simulation software for Navy, Military and Air Force for different countries around the world, our main tech consisted of essentially a world streaming technology, we had height data from the entire world down to 100meters resolution that could be streamed and rendered, so you could essentially build a simulation on any part of the world or even on the entire world. It has been more than 5 years since I left this company. This also ran on what today are medium low end machines, its just a note tha the tech is there already to do this sort of thing.
Edit: Just realized this was going too offtopic, as a little conclusion you are right, its just my personal taste, doesnt mean I wont enjoy WvW, which I will most definately enjoy, but I would rather it was all in the world rather than in instances, I appreciate the server vs server stuff they are doing which is pretty cool and a real stop forward towards removing server barriers, which EVE already does but obviously an empty space streaming engine is a lot less complex than attempting to simulate a world.
I honetly think that open-world PvP was left out of GW2 to promote a sense of community within each server. From all of the dynamic events to questing to WvW. The game has been built on people helping people and having fun together. I believe open-world PvP would undermind this aspec of the game.
I understand that there is still arena style PvP that takes place within the server against your fellow server mates but you're not ganking and/or getting ganked while trying to XP and I think for that reason it will stay more fun than drama-filled like open-world PvP.
I have played all types of MMOs some with PvP some without (FFXI and Aion for an example) and I prefer the direction that GW2 is going in for PvP. In my opinion there was not enough PvP in FFXI and a little too much in Aion.
Save the hating for the other servers in WvW.
They already do. This was added during BWE #2.
Although i wish this game succes because i really enjoy it, and how they changed the combat system plus more. I fear i won't be playing for so long because it has no open world pvp. Open world pvp is the best endgame anyone could ask for tbh, its just one map which is good for anet because it will be less money to add content to the game, for pvp that is.
sPVP is very limited, ya they added a new map but that makes it what 3-4?
WvW is ok, but it not anything like a true open world pvp where you grab soloers and do small groups/1v1 fights. It is a place where servers raid up and fight...which would be kind of annoying to people who enjoy 1v1/small group. I can back this up because i have already seen this on beta.
In the end, people might not play this game for so long due to limited pvp but then again they could always add more pvp content. ATM i don't feel they have so much of that but its just the launch so i don't expect anything big.
Aren't those events just, "defend the keep," and such?
Defend the Keep.
Attack the Tower.
Attack the Keep.
Or are there more PvE oriented ones that I just missed?
When I did play WoW, I always had my arena rogue or priest mains parked where my lowbies were leveling. I never once got a good fight out of someone that ganked my lowbies. They were sh#$ty players that couldn't do well in big boy pvp so they ganked lowbies they knew they had a chance with, lol. Corpse camp them and they release to graveyard and find a new area to go ganking lowbies.
Ganking lowbies, isn't challenging and it is just a waste of time.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Your blog post is really funny. You use the following defenition to call WVW OWPVP
"Combat can occur between players in a non-instanced fashion anywhere in the game world where permitted by the server rule-set. Virtually all Open World PvP games place some limit on where and/or when this type of PvP can occur. This is typically done by zone, area, or character level. Regardless of the restriction, if this type of combat can occur, it is considered Open World PvP."
So, you twist words to suit the situation. Fine. Using the same definition above, the fight cliubs in TSW are OWPVP too. Hey easy.