I didn't get the memo the "Holy trinity" was vanishing. As far as I've seen, Gw2 is a fun game but its no where near 'christ levels' to be killing off that trinity. Besides, a lot of games go beyond the trinity and add in support to the mix which makes in more fun and end up spicing up the combo a bit.
Guildwars 2 is fun, but if it wasn't B2P, chances are people would probably not be sticking by it if it charged a monthly fee. As far as I see it the trinity will remain. Sure I can see more 'actiony' games coming out but in the end it will exist in some form or another even if it functions a bit different.
I think its more community pushed that actually happening. Maybe its just me but i keep seeing it pushed as a selling point for GW2.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just stupid-proofed it. Over this BWE I rolled a typical "tank" class, and my husband rolled a "healer" class and we leveled up then played with the mechanics a bit. Overwhelmingly mobs aggroed me when I had my trait points allocated into Toughness, regardless of what elementalist spec my husband was in. When I had them allocated into Strength, however, they didn't automatically aggro me as often.
We played with this extensively. With my points in Toughness and the Elementalist running water with lots of +healing on, my husband could nuke the mob while I stood there doing nothing and it would still attack ME. Dropping the mob to between a third and half life would pull it away if I didn't attack, but a single attack was enough to keep it on me the entire fight.
With points in Strength the mobs were less likely to auto aggro me and typically went after whoever dealt damage first or hit hardest. However, when my husband was healing, even when I did significantly less damage it stayed on me.
By hybridizing everything and working the aggro mechanics behind the scene, GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just hid it away. It's still there, you just don't have to work at it for it to work.
I think you are seeing what you want to see. It happens with everything.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by gieger808 I find as mmo's move to be more action oriented and less rpg the trinity seems to be disappearing. The role one played in a group was part of your character identity in a mmorpg.
This is the first thing i associate when i hear "Non trinity action rpg"
When you think about it, its quite similar to gw2 on a very basic level.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I think you are seeing what you want to see. It happens with everything.
You assume far too much. What I wanted to see was something that would revolutionize the genre. I've heard people cheering about the lack a trinity and how different it is and I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I didn't go into the game specifically to test the mechanics, I actually went in to play and noticed how odd it was that in water spec when my husband nuked a mob it auto ran for me. After working with the mechanics for hours, I realized what was going on. GW2 just masks the trinity by doing it entirely behind the scenes and hybridizing everything with decent damage output.
It's not what I wanted to see, but it is what's there.
I think you are seeing what you want to see. It happens with everything.
You assume far too much. What I wanted to see was something that would revolutionize the genre. I've heard people cheering about the lack a trinity and how different it is and I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I didn't go into the game specifically to test the mechanics, I actually went in to play and noticed how odd it was that in water spec when my husband nuked a mob it auto ran for me. After working with the mechanics for hours, I realized what was going on. GW2 just masks the trinity by doing it entirely behind the scenes and hybridizing everything with decent damage output.
It's not what I wanted to see, but it is what's there.
Nice find tbh Kay. Quite interesting to see that under the skin, the same cogs are turning.
noticed how odd it was that in water spec when my husband nuked a mob it auto ran for me. After working with the mechanics for hours, I realized what was going on. GW2 just masks the trinity by doing it entirely behind the scenes and hybridizing everything with decent damage output.
It's not what I wanted to see, but it is what's there.
i dont know what your tests were but wiki describes GW2 aggro system
The aggro system is simple—NPCs will select targets primarily based on a range calculation, meaning the character or pet closest to the NPC will hold its attention.[1] However, there are additional factors such as which characters are doing damage, and how much each character has done. In addition, not all creatures use the same AI for aggro; some creatures will have unique aggro mechanics [2]
noticed how odd it was that in water spec when my husband nuked a mob it auto ran for me. After working with the mechanics for hours, I realized what was going on. GW2 just masks the trinity by doing it entirely behind the scenes and hybridizing everything with decent damage output.
It's not what I wanted to see, but it is what's there.
i dont know what your tests were but wiki describes GW2 aggro system
The aggro system is simple—NPCs will select targets primarily based on a range calculation, meaning the character or pet closest to the NPC will hold its attention.[1] However, there are additional factors such as which characters are doing damage, and how much each character has done. In addition, not all creatures use the same AI for aggro; some creatures will have unique aggro mechanics [2]
Would make a change from just (highest dps) / (random aggro)/(tank skills). Wonder how detailed the mechanics actually get.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just stupid-proofed it. Over this BWE I rolled a typical "tank" class, and my husband rolled a "healer" class and we leveled up then played with the mechanics a bit. Overwhelmingly mobs aggroed me when I had my trait points allocated into Toughness, regardless of what elementalist spec my husband was in. When I had them allocated into Strength, however, they didn't automatically aggro me as often.
We played with this extensively. With my points in Toughness and the Elementalist running water with lots of +healing on, my husband could nuke the mob while I stood there doing nothing and it would still attack ME. Dropping the mob to between a third and half life would pull it away if I didn't attack, but a single attack was enough to keep it on me the entire fight.
With points in Strength the mobs were less likely to auto aggro me and typically went after whoever dealt damage first or hit hardest. However, when my husband was healing, even when I did significantly less damage it stayed on me.
By hybridizing everything and working the aggro mechanics behind the scene, GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just hid it away. It's still there, you just don't have to work at it for it to work.
That is really interesting.
How extensively were you able to test this? With different types of mobs, for example? Event bosses? Red level mobs? (Would be interesting to see the "aggro" can fail).
More importantly, is it reliable? If the mobs mostly stick to a certain class, it'd be a whole different ballgame as far as group content is concerned. Honestly, I'd rather have that here than no trinity.
noticed how odd it was that in water spec when my husband nuked a mob it auto ran for me. After working with the mechanics for hours, I realized what was going on. GW2 just masks the trinity by doing it entirely behind the scenes and hybridizing everything with decent damage output.
It's not what I wanted to see, but it is what's there.
i dont know what your tests were but wiki describes GW2 aggro system
The aggro system is simple—NPCs will select targets primarily based on a range calculation, meaning the character or pet closest to the NPC will hold its attention.[1] However, there are additional factors such as which characters are doing damage, and how much each character has done. In addition, not all creatures use the same AI for aggro; some creatures will have unique aggro mechanics [2]
Would make a change from just (highest dps) / (random aggro)/(tank skills). Wonder how detailed the mechanics actually get.
What is written is one thing, what is observed is another.
That wiki page info is drawn from an interview that took place 12 months ago. It's not unthinkable that mechanisms in the game have changed in that time.
Either way, it will be min/maxed by a lot of people once the game goes live. Then we'll know how it REALLY works.
The only people that are happy to see the trinity going away is dpsers. Just from my experience, players who are dps tend to be snooty and think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. As a healer, I can't count how many times a dps dies in a raid and wants to be battle rezzed...um no, you never use your battle rez on a dps, only tanks and healers get that privelege. If you don't like waiting to find a tank or healer...why don't you be one, instead of taking the easy role.
Edit: I've played all roles over the years, and healer is the hardest of the 3, for the most part. Tank can be harder in some encounters, usually where a boss spawns alot of guys or you have to bounce agro between two tanks. When I've played DPS, I almost always fall asleep, it's just button mashing. Healers are over there clicking and button mashing twice a second in most cases where there's aoe. Tank has been made a little simpler than it used to be. They almost never lose agro on bosses anymore.
I don't really like the trinity for a couple related reasons.
It makes enemies seem stupid. An intelligent human being would never continue hacking away at the tank while the tank gets healed, ignoring everyone else. No, they'd kill the healer, then the DPS, then the tank. When they do it the worst possible way, it trivializes combat to some degree.
With that said, it IS important that the difficulty of combat be overcome with smart tactics. That is what the trinity aims to give players: a smart tactic that allows them to get past otherwise impossible enemies. I respect it in that sense, but its a pretty simple tactic (in fact, its so easy to understand and so normal that it's hard to even call it a tactic anymore). It also is rarely varied depending on the situation. I think it is actually important that different tactics are needed to be devised for different types of enemies.
A more complex tactical model where there are several creative solutions for different types of enemies is better. That is easier said than done, of course, and I struggle to think of a game where it has been pulled off extremely well. Hopefully GW2 will be that game.
Off the top of my head, here are some things I can think of, most of which are probably lame:
1. You could have environmental factors matter more tactically. For instance, you could give some players powers which create temporary obstructions across a given area. Against melee mobs in particular, this might force enemies to go through a particular choke point you want them to go through in order to get to you. This could open them up to particularly effective AOE attacks as theyd be jammed up in one area. It could also allow you to clog up the choke point with one particular player, blocking the opponents' exit, letting them get hammed from range. This one particular player need not be a true "tank" normally, as you've manipulated the environment to leave you temporarily only being hit by one or two enemies. This would be really effective, but would likely only work in certain circumstances (melee mobs in non-wide open spaces).
Similarly a player who specializes in obstructions could set up something which obstructs the line of sight for ranged enemies, allowing you to close in and fight ranged enemies close up where the game might have them be significantly less effective.
Similarly, flanking could also be made very effective. This might only add more DPS to the DPS class and not really change anything, but if you make flanking/from behind CCs and spells be more effective too, it will start to force good usage of the environment as a strategy to win, instead of only usage of the trinity (even though some sort of tank is likely still necessary for consistent flanking). This is better because it will get less stale; the environment is different each battle.
2. You might emphasize the importance of conditions, making different enemies be more or less vulnerable to other damage when under the effect of a certain condition. Thus, maybe you really want a character who can bleed enemies when fighting humans, but against undead it doesn't have any extra effect. Therefore, depending on what your skills are, you may be vital to your team's ability to overcome an enemy as the only one able to consistently apply a particular condition effect. Applying that condition, however, will never be your full time role, so it won't get stale.
3. There is something one can see in the last two Mass Effect game that I think is also interesting. In Mass Effect 2 and 3, enemies essentially can have multiple different types of health bars: health, armor, shields, and barriers. Different powers do more or less damage to those different defenses. Now, the ME power system is far too simplistic for an MMO, but I think there's something to be learned here from this. If you implemented this sort of multiple-defenses system, different players might be the main one providing the DPS at a given time, or at the very least the DPS character might have to switch to a different power depending on the defense he's hitting. This would freshen things up.
4. GW2 implements various different combos. If combos similar to these were made very powerful, it would necessitate a well thought out team beyond healer-DPS-tank. You'd want your skills to match up with each other's in order to maximize damage/CC/whatever you use the combos for. This could go beyond simple "If Player A uses power X, I should use Power Y because it will make a combo and those do huge damage to the target. There could be a lot of different combos that are only appropriate (but also very powerful) in certain situations (rather than just having all combos just do more damage and be unambiguously amazing no matter what). This would mean that you'd have to be thinking more like "Player A used power X, and since we are facing many very quick, lightly armored undead enemies, I should use Power Y in order to create a combo which will maximize damage on that type of enemy and slow them down" The next time Player A uses power X, though, you might use a completely different power to combo off of it because the ideal combo effect would be different.
Lots of different combo effects would add necessary tactics, but would also fit the idea of having everyone be super important sometimes, but not be stuck in one boring role all the time. In certain situations you will have one of the powers necessary to set off the exact combo your group needs to be deal with the enemies.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just stupid-proofed it. Over this BWE I rolled a typical "tank" class, and my husband rolled a "healer" class and we leveled up then played with the mechanics a bit. Overwhelmingly mobs aggroed me when I had my trait points allocated into Toughness, regardless of what elementalist spec my husband was in. When I had them allocated into Strength, however, they didn't automatically aggro me as often.
We played with this extensively. With my points in Toughness and the Elementalist running water with lots of +healing on, my husband could nuke the mob while I stood there doing nothing and it would still attack ME. Dropping the mob to between a third and half life would pull it away if I didn't attack, but a single attack was enough to keep it on me the entire fight.
With points in Strength the mobs were less likely to auto aggro me and typically went after whoever dealt damage first or hit hardest. However, when my husband was healing, even when I did significantly less damage it stayed on me.
By hybridizing everything and working the aggro mechanics behind the scene, GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just hid it away. It's still there, you just don't have to work at it for it to work.
That is really interesting.
How extensively were you able to test this? With different types of mobs, for example? Event bosses? Red level mobs? (Would be interesting to see the "aggro" can fail).
More importantly, is it reliable? If the mobs mostly stick to a certain class, it'd be a whole different ballgame as far as group content is concerned. Honestly, I'd rather have that here than no trinity.
We tested this for 6 levels through 3 zones. I didn't keep an exact list or count of the mobs, but the results were overwhelmingly in favor of back door aggro mechanics with standard mobs. We did a few of the events that ended in a major boss fight, and while I had points in Toughness I tanked more often than not. The large creature at the end of the Svanir Dome event ran halfway across the circle (where it spawns) to get to me when the warrior it was on went down. It certainly wasn't because I was top damage. Doing the same event twice, once with points in toughness the other time with points in Strength made for very different results (although I'm not entirely certain that this wasn't because I received completion the first time around). The boss landed on me (when I was strength trait based) only after killing several other dpsers, who I assume were doing more damage than me, though I can't confirm this.
I noticed a few mobs, mostly humanoids, that appeared to bounce aggro based on whomever critted them or held aggro on the person who hit them first, regardless of further damage done, but they were more the exception than the rule.
At this point I'd say it's somewhat reliable. It certainly begs for more testing of the mechanics to determine the exact aggro mechanisms and dps thresholds. I also wasn't able to accurate test it on the boss mobs simply because I had no way of knowing for certain the traits of every other person there. I did notice that warriors seemed inclined to be top targets when they were using certain weapons.
I did test several wapon types, and even many of the dps style weapons (dual swords for example) still held aggro the majority of the time. Sword and board, greatsword, and 2h hammer with points in Toughness seemed to be the most likely to gain aggro based on my observations.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just stupid-proofed it. Over this BWE I rolled a typical "tank" class, and my husband rolled a "healer" class and we leveled up then played with the mechanics a bit. Overwhelmingly mobs aggroed me when I had my trait points allocated into Toughness, regardless of what elementalist spec my husband was in. When I had them allocated into Strength, however, they didn't automatically aggro me as often.
We played with this extensively. With my points in Toughness and the Elementalist running water with lots of +healing on, my husband could nuke the mob while I stood there doing nothing and it would still attack ME. Dropping the mob to between a third and half life would pull it away if I didn't attack, but a single attack was enough to keep it on me the entire fight.
With points in Strength the mobs were less likely to auto aggro me and typically went after whoever dealt damage first or hit hardest. However, when my husband was healing, even when I did significantly less damage it stayed on me.
By hybridizing everything and working the aggro mechanics behind the scene, GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just hid it away. It's still there, you just don't have to work at it for it to work.
Hmm, what I understood was mobs are agro smart, meaning they are attracted to different professions. Initally a Giant Spider may attack a Guardian over a Thief, or a Wolf will attack a Mesmer over a Necro. Perhaps you got luck and had the perfect balance of professions and fell into the right mobs. I could be wrong about this, but that is what I thought I had read.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
If everyone can heal and insta-rez, then tactics aren't really required in boss fights anymore. Just rez them and they're back in the fight. It becomes an all-out dps race.
Once a player dies, they're removed from the boss's aggro list, so they can pour on the dps, because they're far behind the rest of the group in the aggro ranking. As long as everyone can tank some dmg, the recycling of corpses (battlefield rez) will keep everyone in the fight indefinitely. You almost can't lose, it might just take a long time.
This is ideal for a DE in GW2, which has the added benefit of not having a cap on the number of people that can join in. But as soon as you move to an instance or dungeon where there is a structured fight and a player limit, the "free-for-all" idea doesn't work anymore. There you have to have a battle plan, because it's a high pressure environment, often with very low tolerance for player error. Everybody needs to know what their role/task is in the fight, otherwise it devolves into a clusterfeck at lightspeed.
If there's no mechanism to direct and control a boss (i.e. aggro management), the encounter will become chaotic, and success will depend on random dice rolls. Nobody will do instances under those conditions.
Without the mechanisms that underlie the "holy trinity", we may as well remove instances and raids from MMO's as well.
You clearly only understand the trinity combat model. The reason you see the non trinity as chaotic you're using GW2 as a comparison. You have to remember the game is in beta and you have players new to the game and that combat model so it yes it would be chaotic. When you play a game that doesn't use the trinity and has been out for a while you would definitely experience the differences and see how immersive it can be for each player. Remember taunt spells and aggro metering built into the AI of a mob is what clearly defines the trinity. When you don't have that you have each player responsible for themselves and other players. Your dps has consequences and the mob seems much more random and unpredictable. It's another type of combat model that works and works well I find it brings more flavor to all the players in a run.
edited to your last part: Vindictus has been out for 2 years it is a dungeon/raid "only" based game using the non trinity combat model. This isn't anything new.
If everyone can heal and insta-rez, then tactics aren't really required in boss fights anymore. Just rez them and they're back in the fight. It becomes an all-out dps race.
Once a player dies, they're removed from the boss's aggro list, so they can pour on the dps, because they're far behind the rest of the group in the aggro ranking. As long as everyone can tank some dmg, the recycling of corpses (battlefield rez) will keep everyone in the fight indefinitely. You almost can't lose, it might just take a long time.
This is ideal for a DE in GW2, which has the added benefit of not having a cap on the number of people that can join in. But as soon as you move to an instance or dungeon where there is a structured fight and a player limit, the "free-for-all" idea doesn't work anymore. There you have to have a battle plan, because it's a high pressure environment, often with very low tolerance for player error. Everybody needs to know what their role/task is in the fight, otherwise it devolves into a clusterfeck at lightspeed.
If there's no mechanism to direct and control a boss (i.e. aggro management), the encounter will become chaotic, and success will depend on random dice rolls. Nobody will do instances under those conditions.
Without the mechanisms that underlie the "holy trinity", we may as well remove instances and raids from MMO's as well.
You clearly only understand the trinity combat model. The reason you see the non trinity as chaotic you're using GW2 as a comparison. You have to remember the game is in beta and you have players new to the game and that combat model so it yes it would be chaotic. When you play a game that doesn't use the trinity and has been out for a while you would definitely experience the differences and see how immersive it can be for each player. Remember taunt spells and aggro metering built into the AI of a mob is what clearly defines the trinity. When you don't have that you have each player responsible for themselves and other players. Your dps has consequences and the mob seems much more random and unpredictable. It's another type of combat model that works and works well I find it brings more flavor to all the players in a run.
edited to your last part: Vindictus has been out for 2 years it is a dungeon/raid "only" based game using the non trinity combat model. This isn't anything new.
I fully admit that I can't understand how a raid would progress without using the "trinity mechanism". I'll watch the YouTube video's of GW2 raids when they become available, maybe that will clarify the picture.
I find the aggro mechanism that supports trinity play to be very logical. It makes complete sense to me that a NPC would attack the person hurting them the most. It also makes sense that the tank can divert them from that target by saying bad things about it's mother (taunting). But it gets a bit strained when the game says the NPC will ignore both those factors because he particularly hates people with pointy beards, and will always try to kill them first.
I am definitely pro trinity and here's why: I like to play alts and I like to have a role......This "one character can do everything and doesnt need anyone" stuff is better suited for single player games.....In a MMORPG I like to play several characters and have them fil la unique role......I also dont like the trend towards everyone is DPS now and they simply overpower the content.... IMO that isnt much fun.....Whats more fun is when a group of people has to work well together to accomplish a goal.
The Demise? Hardly. Just because one game does away with it doesn't mean that every game does away with it. Fear not OP and those that like the holy trinity, there are probably thousands of games that have it.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just stupid-proofed it. Over this BWE I rolled a typical "tank" class, and my husband rolled a "healer" class and we leveled up then played with the mechanics a bit. Overwhelmingly mobs aggroed me when I had my trait points allocated into Toughness, regardless of what elementalist spec my husband was in. When I had them allocated into Strength, however, they didn't automatically aggro me as often.
We played with this extensively. With my points in Toughness and the Elementalist running water with lots of +healing on, my husband could nuke the mob while I stood there doing nothing and it would still attack ME. Dropping the mob to between a third and half life would pull it away if I didn't attack, but a single attack was enough to keep it on me the entire fight.
With points in Strength the mobs were less likely to auto aggro me and typically went after whoever dealt damage first or hit hardest. However, when my husband was healing, even when I did significantly less damage it stayed on me.
By hybridizing everything and working the aggro mechanics behind the scene, GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just hid it away. It's still there, you just don't have to work at it for it to work.
That is really interesting.
How extensively were you able to test this? With different types of mobs, for example? Event bosses? Red level mobs? (Would be interesting to see the "aggro" can fail).
More importantly, is it reliable? If the mobs mostly stick to a certain class, it'd be a whole different ballgame as far as group content is concerned. Honestly, I'd rather have that here than no trinity.
Actually, unless they changed it , stats you had are irrelevent in managing aggro. Mobs have specific AI behavior, some will behave differently that others. Some will aggro whatever player is closest, others might go after caster more and ignore the melee. This was for the Devs in a blog about the trinity or the mob AI. Tanking got rid of and instead Control was put in it's place.
The "Holy Trinity" will continue to be around and it's demise is nowhere. Some people really like that system, others hate it. I personally find it very boring and dumbed down system as it takes skill away and really pigeon holes people with their classes and stagnates creativity.
I played the tank role for over 3 years in WoW and really it was the most nimbnumbing gaming experiences and made the role feel like a job than being able to just have fun. GW2 is non stop fun to me in regards to combat and really think that control is really what a tank role should be n not a "oh look at me look at me" kind of mechanic.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
I'll only comment on the question asked in the original post. I'm not willing to read another 9 pages of trinity post.
Why is it the demise of the trinity system? and why would it not be ok to have a non trinity system option available? Those are my questions.
I mean what gets to me the most about these posts is one day everyone trolls that game A is a clone of game B then someone does something different and those same people are all up in arms that they don't like the change.
Many players, I for one, are happy that a developer has opted to go a different route. I also don't believe that that is the only route a game developer can choose to go.
1. the trinity system will not die
2. hopefully GW2's system of everyone supports everyone and remember to keep an eye out for your own back, will be a success and other game developers will realise there are and should be options.
3. hopefully game developers dont' all implement gw2's system or the trinity system but come up with new and interesting ways to play their games.
Comments
I think its more community pushed that actually happening. Maybe its just me but i keep seeing it pushed as a selling point for GW2.
im personally neutral on it
I'm not opposed to the tank/spank setup that many mmos have but I'm also open to other ways it can be done
I havent done a dungeon in GW2 yet so I dont have any personal experiences to comment on
(yes i know theres videos but i prefer to experience it firsthand)
I have seen it possible in Everquest, altho it wasnt the most efficient way to do a dungeon
EQ2 fan sites
I find as mmo's move to be more action oriented and less rpg the trinity seems to be disappearing.
The role one played in a group was part of your character identity in a mmorpg.
I think you are seeing what you want to see. It happens with everything.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
This is the first thing i associate when i hear "Non trinity action rpg"
When you think about it, its quite similar to gw2 on a very basic level.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
You assume far too much. What I wanted to see was something that would revolutionize the genre. I've heard people cheering about the lack a trinity and how different it is and I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I didn't go into the game specifically to test the mechanics, I actually went in to play and noticed how odd it was that in water spec when my husband nuked a mob it auto ran for me. After working with the mechanics for hours, I realized what was going on. GW2 just masks the trinity by doing it entirely behind the scenes and hybridizing everything with decent damage output.
It's not what I wanted to see, but it is what's there.
Nice find tbh Kay. Quite interesting to see that under the skin, the same cogs are turning.
i dont know what your tests were but wiki describes GW2 aggro system
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro
The aggro system is simple—NPCs will select targets primarily based on a range calculation, meaning the character or pet closest to the NPC will hold its attention.[1] However, there are additional factors such as which characters are doing damage, and how much each character has done. In addition, not all creatures use the same AI for aggro; some creatures will have unique aggro mechanics [2]
EQ2 fan sites
Would make a change from just (highest dps) / (random aggro)/(tank skills). Wonder how detailed the mechanics actually get.
That is really interesting.
How extensively were you able to test this? With different types of mobs, for example? Event bosses? Red level mobs? (Would be interesting to see the "aggro" can fail).
More importantly, is it reliable? If the mobs mostly stick to a certain class, it'd be a whole different ballgame as far as group content is concerned. Honestly, I'd rather have that here than no trinity.
What is written is one thing, what is observed is another.
That wiki page info is drawn from an interview that took place 12 months ago. It's not unthinkable that mechanisms in the game have changed in that time.
Either way, it will be min/maxed by a lot of people once the game goes live. Then we'll know how it REALLY works.
The only people that are happy to see the trinity going away is dpsers. Just from my experience, players who are dps tend to be snooty and think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. As a healer, I can't count how many times a dps dies in a raid and wants to be battle rezzed...um no, you never use your battle rez on a dps, only tanks and healers get that privelege. If you don't like waiting to find a tank or healer...why don't you be one, instead of taking the easy role.
Edit: I've played all roles over the years, and healer is the hardest of the 3, for the most part. Tank can be harder in some encounters, usually where a boss spawns alot of guys or you have to bounce agro between two tanks. When I've played DPS, I almost always fall asleep, it's just button mashing. Healers are over there clicking and button mashing twice a second in most cases where there's aoe. Tank has been made a little simpler than it used to be. They almost never lose agro on bosses anymore.
I don't really like the trinity for a couple related reasons.
It makes enemies seem stupid. An intelligent human being would never continue hacking away at the tank while the tank gets healed, ignoring everyone else. No, they'd kill the healer, then the DPS, then the tank. When they do it the worst possible way, it trivializes combat to some degree.
With that said, it IS important that the difficulty of combat be overcome with smart tactics. That is what the trinity aims to give players: a smart tactic that allows them to get past otherwise impossible enemies. I respect it in that sense, but its a pretty simple tactic (in fact, its so easy to understand and so normal that it's hard to even call it a tactic anymore). It also is rarely varied depending on the situation. I think it is actually important that different tactics are needed to be devised for different types of enemies.
A more complex tactical model where there are several creative solutions for different types of enemies is better. That is easier said than done, of course, and I struggle to think of a game where it has been pulled off extremely well. Hopefully GW2 will be that game.
Off the top of my head, here are some things I can think of, most of which are probably lame:
1. You could have environmental factors matter more tactically. For instance, you could give some players powers which create temporary obstructions across a given area. Against melee mobs in particular, this might force enemies to go through a particular choke point you want them to go through in order to get to you. This could open them up to particularly effective AOE attacks as theyd be jammed up in one area. It could also allow you to clog up the choke point with one particular player, blocking the opponents' exit, letting them get hammed from range. This one particular player need not be a true "tank" normally, as you've manipulated the environment to leave you temporarily only being hit by one or two enemies. This would be really effective, but would likely only work in certain circumstances (melee mobs in non-wide open spaces).
Similarly a player who specializes in obstructions could set up something which obstructs the line of sight for ranged enemies, allowing you to close in and fight ranged enemies close up where the game might have them be significantly less effective.
Similarly, flanking could also be made very effective. This might only add more DPS to the DPS class and not really change anything, but if you make flanking/from behind CCs and spells be more effective too, it will start to force good usage of the environment as a strategy to win, instead of only usage of the trinity (even though some sort of tank is likely still necessary for consistent flanking). This is better because it will get less stale; the environment is different each battle.
2. You might emphasize the importance of conditions, making different enemies be more or less vulnerable to other damage when under the effect of a certain condition. Thus, maybe you really want a character who can bleed enemies when fighting humans, but against undead it doesn't have any extra effect. Therefore, depending on what your skills are, you may be vital to your team's ability to overcome an enemy as the only one able to consistently apply a particular condition effect. Applying that condition, however, will never be your full time role, so it won't get stale.
3. There is something one can see in the last two Mass Effect game that I think is also interesting. In Mass Effect 2 and 3, enemies essentially can have multiple different types of health bars: health, armor, shields, and barriers. Different powers do more or less damage to those different defenses. Now, the ME power system is far too simplistic for an MMO, but I think there's something to be learned here from this. If you implemented this sort of multiple-defenses system, different players might be the main one providing the DPS at a given time, or at the very least the DPS character might have to switch to a different power depending on the defense he's hitting. This would freshen things up.
4. GW2 implements various different combos. If combos similar to these were made very powerful, it would necessitate a well thought out team beyond healer-DPS-tank. You'd want your skills to match up with each other's in order to maximize damage/CC/whatever you use the combos for. This could go beyond simple "If Player A uses power X, I should use Power Y because it will make a combo and those do huge damage to the target. There could be a lot of different combos that are only appropriate (but also very powerful) in certain situations (rather than just having all combos just do more damage and be unambiguously amazing no matter what). This would mean that you'd have to be thinking more like "Player A used power X, and since we are facing many very quick, lightly armored undead enemies, I should use Power Y in order to create a combo which will maximize damage on that type of enemy and slow them down" The next time Player A uses power X, though, you might use a completely different power to combo off of it because the ideal combo effect would be different.
Lots of different combo effects would add necessary tactics, but would also fit the idea of having everyone be super important sometimes, but not be stuck in one boring role all the time. In certain situations you will have one of the powers necessary to set off the exact combo your group needs to be deal with the enemies.
We tested this for 6 levels through 3 zones. I didn't keep an exact list or count of the mobs, but the results were overwhelmingly in favor of back door aggro mechanics with standard mobs. We did a few of the events that ended in a major boss fight, and while I had points in Toughness I tanked more often than not. The large creature at the end of the Svanir Dome event ran halfway across the circle (where it spawns) to get to me when the warrior it was on went down. It certainly wasn't because I was top damage. Doing the same event twice, once with points in toughness the other time with points in Strength made for very different results (although I'm not entirely certain that this wasn't because I received completion the first time around). The boss landed on me (when I was strength trait based) only after killing several other dpsers, who I assume were doing more damage than me, though I can't confirm this.
I noticed a few mobs, mostly humanoids, that appeared to bounce aggro based on whomever critted them or held aggro on the person who hit them first, regardless of further damage done, but they were more the exception than the rule.
At this point I'd say it's somewhat reliable. It certainly begs for more testing of the mechanics to determine the exact aggro mechanisms and dps thresholds. I also wasn't able to accurate test it on the boss mobs simply because I had no way of knowing for certain the traits of every other person there. I did notice that warriors seemed inclined to be top targets when they were using certain weapons.
I did test several wapon types, and even many of the dps style weapons (dual swords for example) still held aggro the majority of the time. Sword and board, greatsword, and 2h hammer with points in Toughness seemed to be the most likely to gain aggro based on my observations.
to be fair.. the holy trinity ( tank/heal/cc) was both born and died in everquest.
the unholy trinity (tank/heal/dps) that more are familiar with is dying now.
I think it goes back a ways past everquest.... maybe D&D
Nothing wrong with the Trinity, some people love to fill roles, some dont and that ok.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Hmm, what I understood was mobs are agro smart, meaning they are attracted to different professions. Initally a Giant Spider may attack a Guardian over a Thief, or a Wolf will attack a Mesmer over a Necro. Perhaps you got luck and had the perfect balance of professions and fell into the right mobs. I could be wrong about this, but that is what I thought I had read.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I fully admit that I can't understand how a raid would progress without using the "trinity mechanism". I'll watch the YouTube video's of GW2 raids when they become available, maybe that will clarify the picture.
I find the aggro mechanism that supports trinity play to be very logical. It makes complete sense to me that a NPC would attack the person hurting them the most. It also makes sense that the tank can divert them from that target by saying bad things about it's mother (taunting). But it gets a bit strained when the game says the NPC will ignore both those factors because he particularly hates people with pointy beards, and will always try to kill them first.
EDIT: I'll check out Vindictus too
I am definitely pro trinity and here's why: I like to play alts and I like to have a role......This "one character can do everything and doesnt need anyone" stuff is better suited for single player games.....In a MMORPG I like to play several characters and have them fil la unique role......I also dont like the trend towards everyone is DPS now and they simply overpower the content.... IMO that isnt much fun.....Whats more fun is when a group of people has to work well together to accomplish a goal.
The Tinity can burn in hell, i have been looking for a game without it since Asherons Call. and finally GW2 has come along for me to enjoy.
The Demise? Hardly. Just because one game does away with it doesn't mean that every game does away with it. Fear not OP and those that like the holy trinity, there are probably thousands of games that have it.
Actually, unless they changed it , stats you had are irrelevent in managing aggro. Mobs have specific AI behavior, some will behave differently that others. Some will aggro whatever player is closest, others might go after caster more and ignore the melee. This was for the Devs in a blog about the trinity or the mob AI. Tanking got rid of and instead Control was put in it's place.
The "Holy Trinity" will continue to be around and it's demise is nowhere. Some people really like that system, others hate it. I personally find it very boring and dumbed down system as it takes skill away and really pigeon holes people with their classes and stagnates creativity.
I played the tank role for over 3 years in WoW and really it was the most nimbnumbing gaming experiences and made the role feel like a job than being able to just have fun. GW2 is non stop fun to me in regards to combat and really think that control is really what a tank role should be n not a "oh look at me look at me" kind of mechanic.
I'll only comment on the question asked in the original post. I'm not willing to read another 9 pages of trinity post.
Why is it the demise of the trinity system? and why would it not be ok to have a non trinity system option available? Those are my questions.
I mean what gets to me the most about these posts is one day everyone trolls that game A is a clone of game B then someone does something different and those same people are all up in arms that they don't like the change.
Many players, I for one, are happy that a developer has opted to go a different route. I also don't believe that that is the only route a game developer can choose to go.
1. the trinity system will not die
2. hopefully GW2's system of everyone supports everyone and remember to keep an eye out for your own back, will be a success and other game developers will realise there are and should be options.
3. hopefully game developers dont' all implement gw2's system or the trinity system but come up with new and interesting ways to play their games.