can someone point me to a video of a GW2 fight where there is some strategy involved outside of just zerging the boss down?
all of this praise for no trinity .. and all I see are constant stuns/snares and kiting ... how is that an improvement?
im playing either way. its a fun game .. but I dont completely buy into the no trinity hype.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
can someone point me to a video of a GW2 fight where there is some strategy involved outside of just zerging the boss down?
all of this praise for no trinity .. and all I see are constant stuns/snares and kiting ... how is that an improvement?
im playing either way. its a fun game .. but I dont completely buy into the no trinity hype.
Well, haven't seen as many videos myself (trying not to spoil that much for release), but the fight against Tequatl the Sunless involved adds (undead), bone walls spawned by the boss that had to be destroyed, asura techs that had to be revived so they could fix some big energy guns, that then you had to fir against the boss and other things like that. Also in the ascalon catacombs dungeon (the only one we've really seen so far) there are two bosses that have to be kept separated or they get big damage buffs, another one with adds that heal it and have to be taken down fast and so on.
Instance bosses are usually immune to any number of those effects. Those effects also typically raise your aggro ranking dramatically as well, so if you can't keep that boss permanently rooted, stunned, silenced, feared, etc., you will die very quickly.
That is a hopeless plan.
It's not hopeless, it just requires a new approach and for developers to keep in mind their players' capabilities while designing new fights. The skill-checks won't be identical to the ones used by earlier games, but they really shouldn't be because players want new gameplay to challenge them with new things to master (which is why MMORPGs like WOW have the trinity but have a ton of fights which ditch the trinity and/or threat-based AI entirely for entirely different mechanics.)
Videogames were able to have challenging bosses long before the trinity came around, after all.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Videogames were able to have challenging bosses long before the trinity came around, after all.
Single player games, yes, but mmo's are a different beast.
Homogenising characters so everyone is the same detracts from the grouping experience. Why? Simple, because a group ceases to be more than the sum of it's parts. Players cease to be important to a group, they become nothing more than one of a number requirement.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Videogames were able to have challenging bosses long before the trinity came around, after all.
Single player games, yes, but mmo's are a different beast.
Homogenising characters so everyone is the same detracts from the grouping experience. Why? Simple, because a group ceases to be more than the sum of it's parts. Players cease to be important to a group, they become nothing more than one of a number requirement.
Well then maybe developers should take a look at all the failed mmo's and developers should stop labeling their games MMO's so that those of us that would like a little variety in our persistant online games can have some. Tired of the same argument of mmo's need to be done in x,y,z fomula or it will fail.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just stupid-proofed it. Over this BWE I rolled a typical "tank" class, and my husband rolled a "healer" class and we leveled up then played with the mechanics a bit. Overwhelmingly mobs aggroed me when I had my trait points allocated into Toughness, regardless of what elementalist spec my husband was in. When I had them allocated into Strength, however, they didn't automatically aggro me as often.
We played with this extensively. With my points in Toughness and the Elementalist running water with lots of +healing on, my husband could nuke the mob while I stood there doing nothing and it would still attack ME. Dropping the mob to between a third and half life would pull it away if I didn't attack, but a single attack was enough to keep it on me the entire fight.
With points in Strength the mobs were less likely to auto aggro me and typically went after whoever dealt damage first or hit hardest. However, when my husband was healing, even when I did significantly less damage it stayed on me.
By hybridizing everything and working the aggro mechanics behind the scene, GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just hid it away. It's still there, you just don't have to work at it for it to work.
I think you are seeing what you want to see. It happens with everything.
I didn't see this behaviour.
Mobs just generally target those that are closer.
Guardians are just retardly overpowered (as in tanking 3 Ettins + 1 Vet Ettin) early game - greatsword deals a ton of damage and the Valor trait line has both toughness and critical damage. Aditionally the guardian signets increase damage and reduce damage. Add aegis and whatnot.
If on the other hand you are using a staff and stay in the back the mobs won't go after the guardian.
The elementalist + guardian combo is just flawed in this early areas where most mobs just focus those closer.
If both were melee they would have observed that the mobs would split evenly and any other melee class would get kicked so much easier.
Actually in my video footage I have see situations where the mobs just kept going after my GF engineer since she had taken damage.
Lastly, GW2 isn't the first game by Anet where there is not a tank and no aggro mechanic - GW1 was.
AI in GW1 went after low armor characters first, characters with Death penalty, etc.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by Nadia Originally posted by azmundaican someone point me to a video of a GW2 fight where there is some strategy involved outside of just zerging the boss down?all of this praise for no trinity .. and all I see are constant stuns/snares and kiting ... how is that an improvement?im playing either way. its a fun game .. but I dont completely buy into the no trinity hype.
start the video at 19:35 to see related info about engaging a boss
- they are not kiting the boss or zerging the boss but do have to use evasive manuevers
looks like Baron Geddon pre-no rez update =P kinda zergy. dps dps die, rez, dps, dps, die rez ..
im sure getting used to dodging specific moves will cut down on the deaths .. but that's hardly the kind of strategy im used to. the genre definitely needs variety and will benefit from alternatives to the trinity .. but the little I have seen doesn't look terribly awesome.
that being said it will do wonders for group pvp .. which is probably the point, really ... just a shame we can't have solid pve group content at the same time. hopefully its there and we just havent seen it yet.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Originally posted by azmundaican someone point me to a video of a GW2 fight where there is some strategy involved outside of just zerging the boss down?all of this praise for no trinity .. and all I see are constant stuns/snares and kiting ... how is that an improvement?im playing either way. its a fun game .. but I dont completely buy into the no trinity hype.
start the video at 19:35 to see related info about engaging a boss
- they are not kiting the boss or zerging the boss but do have to use evasive manuevers
looks like Baron Geddon pre-no rez update =P kinda zergy. dps dps die, rez, dps, dps, die rez ..
im sure getting used to dodging specific moves will cut down on the deaths .. but that's hardly the kind of strategy im used to. the genre definitely needs variety and will benefit from alternatives to the trinity .. but the little I have seen doesn't look terribly awesome.
that being said it will do wonders for group pvp .. which is probably the point, really ... just a shame we can't have solid pve group content at the same time. hopefully its there and we just havent seen it yet.
Getting downed is not a fail in GW2. It happens.
Still take a team of players to a new MMORPG and take them to a dungeon after less than 30 hours game time. Have that dungeon including mechanics as active dodging, weapon swapping and avoiding red circles.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
If there's no mechanism to direct and control a boss (i.e. aggro management), the encounter will become chaotic, and success will depend on random dice rolls. Nobody will do instances under those conditions.
Without the mechanisms that underlie the "holy trinity", we may as well remove instances and raids from MMO's as well.
there are many ways in mmos to "direct and control" mobs with no taunt ie aggro management
-- stuns, knockbacks, snares, roots, interrupts, silence (if caster), fear
Mobs yes, bosses never.
Instance bosses are usually immune to any number of those effects. Those effects also typically raise your aggro ranking dramatically as well, so if you can't keep that boss permanently rooted, stunned, silenced, feared, etc., you will die very quickly.
That is a hopeless plan.
Not in Diablo 3. No trinity and combat works well there. Bosses (elite & champion packs) can be rooted stunned, silenced and so on ... and still tough to beat with their abilites.
Originally posted by azmundaican someone point me to a video of a GW2 fight where there is some strategy involved outside of just zerging the boss down?all of this praise for no trinity .. and all I see are constant stuns/snares and kiting ... how is that an improvement?im playing either way. its a fun game .. but I dont completely buy into the no trinity hype.
start the video at 19:35 to see related info about engaging a boss
- they are not kiting the boss or zerging the boss but do have to use evasive manuevers
looks like Baron Geddon pre-no rez update =P kinda zergy. dps dps die, rez, dps, dps, die rez ..
im sure getting used to dodging specific moves will cut down on the deaths .. but that's hardly the kind of strategy im used to. the genre definitely needs variety and will benefit from alternatives to the trinity .. but the little I have seen doesn't look terribly awesome.
that being said it will do wonders for group pvp .. which is probably the point, really ... just a shame we can't have solid pve group content at the same time. hopefully its there and we just havent seen it yet.
Dodging and using skills to help mitigate dmg is a hell of a lot better than your typical tank n spank where DPS just sit back n stand still n go through their rotations. When TB mention add with some nasty ranged and stuns there are mitigating ways for it. Like a guardian has a reflecttion wall for projectiles and an AoE stability that'll prevent stuns. Stuff like like makes the combat so much better than tank n spanks n going through rotations.
Originally posted by Ambros123 Originally posted by azmundaiOriginally posted by NadiaOriginally posted by azmundaican someone point me to a video of a GW2 fight where there is some strategy involved outside of just zerging the boss down?all of this praise for no trinity .. and all I see are constant stuns/snares and kiting ... how is that an improvement?im playing either way. its a fun game .. but I dont completely buy into the no trinity hype.
Total Biscuit GW2 video of playing in dungeonshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IM2rAK0Q-8start the video at 19:35 to see related info about engaging a boss- they are not kiting the boss or zerging the boss but do have to use evasive manuevers looks like Baron Geddon pre-no rez update =P kinda zergy. dps dps die, rez, dps, dps, die rez .. im sure getting used to dodging specific moves will cut down on the deaths .. but that's hardly the kind of strategy im used to. the genre definitely needs variety and will benefit from alternatives to the trinity .. but the little I have seen doesn't look terribly awesome.that being said it will do wonders for group pvp .. which is probably the point, really ... just a shame we can't have solid pve group content at the same time. hopefully its there and we just havent seen it yet.Dodging and using skills to help mitigate dmg is a hell of a lot better than your typical tank n spank where DPS just sit back n stand still n go through their rotations. When TB mention add with some nasty ranged and stuns there are mitigating ways for it. Like a guardian has a reflecttion wall for projectiles and an AoE stability that'll prevent stuns. Stuff like like makes the combat so much better than tank n spanks n going through rotations.
so dodging != strafing out of pbaoe? pain supression (the old one .. no idea what it does these days), intervene, etc != mitigating abilities? the first time I killed vaelstraz there was a rogue evasion tanking at the end, pally then bubbled the rogue and kited a bit while the rogue trailed behind and got the killing blow.
taunts have obviously been taken entirely too far .. and yea .. looking for a healer sucks ... but until I can actually see how this is better .. with a video of something other than someone dieing and rezzing 3 times (not counting the other players dieing and rezzing either) .. it just doesnt seem all that revolutionary to me.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
This is how I feel about roles... they are great for introducing someone (like me) to a game, but overly restrictive to players (like me) who have been in it for some time and crave something with more versatility.
Ultimately, I prefer non-trinity. Eventually I no longer want the game telling me what I should/should not be able to do. So a highly flexible system will always garner more support from me.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Originally posted by azmundaican someone point me to a video of a GW2 fight where there is some strategy involved outside of just zerging the boss down?all of this praise for no trinity .. and all I see are constant stuns/snares and kiting ... how is that an improvement?im playing either way. its a fun game .. but I dont completely buy into the no trinity hype.
Total Biscuit GW2 video of playing in dungeonshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IM2rAK0Q-8start the video at 19:35 to see related info about engaging a boss- they are not kiting the boss or zerging the boss but do have to use evasive manuevers
looks like Baron Geddon pre-no rez update =P kinda zergy. dps dps die, rez, dps, dps, die rez .. im sure getting used to dodging specific moves will cut down on the deaths .. but that's hardly the kind of strategy im used to. the genre definitely needs variety and will benefit from alternatives to the trinity .. but the little I have seen doesn't look terribly awesome.that being said it will do wonders for group pvp .. which is probably the point, really ... just a shame we can't have solid pve group content at the same time. hopefully its there and we just havent seen it yet.
Dodging and using skills to help mitigate dmg is a hell of a lot better than your typical tank n spank where DPS just sit back n stand still n go through their rotations. When TB mention add with some nasty ranged and stuns there are mitigating ways for it. Like a guardian has a reflecttion wall for projectiles and an AoE stability that'll prevent stuns. Stuff like like makes the combat so much better than tank n spanks n going through rotations.
so dodging != strafing out of pbaoe? pain supression (the old one .. no idea what it does these days), intervene, etc != mitigating abilities? the first time I killed vaelstraz there was a rogue evasion tanking at the end, pally then bubbled the rogue and kited a bit while the rogue trailed behind and got the killing blow.
taunts have obviously been taken entirely too far .. and yea .. looking for a healer sucks ... but until I can actually see how this is better .. with a video of something other than someone dieing and rezzing 3 times (not counting the other players dieing and rezzing either) .. it just doesnt seem all that revolutionary to me.
Those mitagating abilites are in a rotation, I played the Warr tank in WoW n all those mitagating abilities were all in a rotation except for your very few "oh shit" moments which is a poor concept. The current trinity boils down to tanks has aggro and does his rotation, DPS spams their roattion, healer goes healbot which again is a rotation. Sure certain encounters will throw certain mechanics in the fight but thats you "don't stand in the fire" mechanic and hardly dynamic, no more than GW2 or any MMO does except DDO which is the most simplistic. Each player has tools to contribute to an outcome regardless of their role.
Dodging in GW2 = getting out if the red circle or telegraphed abilities by either strafing or running out or dodging. Some things your gonna get annihilated if you stand there no matter what class or build you are unlike WoW where the tank just eats it. Mitigating abilites = someone placing down a shield reflection wall or a stability shout or using a profession combo. Combat is much more dynamic with GW2 version of combat. Trinity is just a dumbing down and isn't nearly as proactive as GW2's style of combat.
It's a completely different mechanic and only I enjoy more because players are more proactive and contribute more to a group and advocates teamwork more than your holy trinity.
I find this post ironic. Last night another mesmer and I tried to escort a Moa trainer to another place in a dynamic event. We kept dying. It was more frustrating (a lot more frustrating) than fun. Finally the other mesmer invited another player - a guardian. We breezed through the rest of event with no problem (well the guardian did die once). Why was it so easy? It was not due to the third player - it was because the Guardian tanked! While he kept the mobs focus we tore then up with dps. I say a resounding YES to the Trinity!
To me it sounds more like you had problems playing mesmers, they take a lot of skill to play well. Add someone that can tank (as good as you can in GW2) and things becomes a lot easier.
I play theif, I can take any damage and have to kite and run around a lot to live but once I got that right I rarely die (even when guardians are dying all around me). It is all about being able to play your class there. Now I wont give you any mesmer tips since I havn´t had the time to master it myself either.
Still, inderect tanking like you are talking about is a lot better than active tanking with taunts and crap, it really turn the game boring. GW2 doesn´t really have the trinity since a tougher player can distract the enemies in any game from Rainbow 6 to DOTA, that is not really trinity tanking.
A trinity tank taunts, can take loads of damage and do very little themselves. They suck.
i have to agree with Loke. i personally find that i am able to tank better (tank not kite) with my mesmer than with my warrior. 2 mesmers should not need a guardian, problem is we are new to the game and we all learn to play our classes at much different rates. (great sword mesmer and then sword + pistol)has great tanking and kitting abilities.
i have nothing against the trenity, the trinity provided some fun instances of play for me, i remember back in WoW doing arena combat with my raiding paladin friend(i played exclusively fury warrior) we desimated the competitions and it was fun as hell. but the trinity has the set back that for PVE you need to have the healer and the tank, an that's just annoying. imagening stopping a run jus before the boss because your healer had to leave, those are the things i want out of the trinity.
the trinity also provides huge pvp imbalances, and as a PVPer i rather not have it at all.
Single player games, yes, but mmo's are a different beast.
Homogenising characters so everyone is the same detracts from the grouping experience. Why? Simple, because a group ceases to be more than the sum of it's parts. Players cease to be important to a group, they become nothing more than one of a number requirement.
Well I agree that games also shouldn't plunge down the path of homogenization, but you can avoid that even without the trinity. You can have strongly defined roles even without the trinity, and even if those roles aren't something a character class locks you into.
I wouldn't say siegers and supply-runners and raiders are a great example in GW2's WvW, but they're pretty close. Siegers are, because you're actually switching into a mode where you can basically do nothing else and need other players to defend you, but the other roles are less cut and dry.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
I'll say this yet another time to yet another person - the only people saying gw2 is a second coming or jesus MMO are the ones that don't like it. So please stop using that term. It only makes people prejudiced against you straight from the get go.
And as to your question - aren't you just that in a trinity MMO though? An interchangeable part of a machine? A machine with three different gears - dps, healer and tank. If one of those isn't working well, replace it with another gear and the machine is working again just with the same configuration.
From personal experience, boy am I glad to see other people if I'm doing an event. There's been a good few events where I've been struggling alone, but when that second person shows up to help, I know that I need his help to complete it, and he needs my help to complete it.
If you're talking from strictly dungeons/organized teams point of view, well, even more so. There is no clear cut roles, but instead you'll need to piece together what skills/effects the team has and what it needs, and each character can adjust their skills to bring whatever is needed to the table.
For me it's a resounding no to trinity, it's way more fun and challenging this way.
I find this post ironic. Last night another mesmer and I tried to escort a Moa trainer to another place in a dynamic event. We kept dying. It was more frustrating (a lot more frustrating) than fun. Finally the other mesmer invited another player - a guardian. We breezed through the rest of event with no problem (well the guardian did die once). Why was it so easy? It was not due to the third player - it was because the Guardian tanked! While he kept the mobs focus we tore then up with dps. I say a resounding YES to the Trinity!
Really? You couldn't establish good control with a mesmer? Hmm... seems you may need more refinement with the profession. A greatsword is a nice weapon to keep foes at a distance and gives you good survivability, and I liked a staff alt weapon. Chaos storm, for one, has damage, control and supporting aspects to it, and conditions are fun.
You don't need the trinity. You need to learn your skills, see which skills have which blends of damage, control and support, and use the right skills at the right time. Don't play a role. Play the fight.
The only people that are happy to see the trinity going away is dpsers. Just from my experience, players who are dps tend to be snooty and think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. As a healer, I can't count how many times a dps dies in a raid and wants to be battle rezzed...um no, you never use your battle rez on a dps, only tanks and healers get that privelege. If you don't like waiting to find a tank or healer...why don't you be one, instead of taking the easy role.
Edit: I've played all roles over the years, and healer is the hardest of the 3, for the most part. Tank can be harder in some encounters, usually where a boss spawns alot of guys or you have to bounce agro between two tanks. When I've played DPS, I almost always fall asleep, it's just button mashing. Healers are over there clicking and button mashing twice a second in most cases where there's aoe. Tank has been made a little simpler than it used to be. They almost never lose agro on bosses anymore.
I found this post terribly ironic and somewhat hypocritical. You say that DPS players tend to be snooty and arrogant, then immediately state that they don't deserve the privelege of a rez, and insult their ability to play. Do you not see that you are exactly what you're railing against?
OT: I strongly dislike the trinity, and I won't explain why too much as people like Loke can explain that much better than I. As for GW2, you may be able to get away with zergs or trinity-emulated combat in DEs and SM dungeons, but after running explorable modes several times with different classes, it is completely impossible to get through them without planning. Some people in this thread don't seem to realize that you don't require the trinity to have tactics; in fact, with the trinity, you use the same exact tactic 95%+ of the time. I can heal in a Rift raid with my eyes closed. It's not as difficult as you want it to seem.
What requires true skill is true tactics. Needing to know boss tells, CC placements, etc., is where this skill lies. While present in holy trinity MMOs, it's all down to the tank and healer to worry about it. That's the only teamwork involved. DPS just stays out of the fire. In a game like GW2, everyone has to put in effort, and everyone has to support each other with their abilities. Is you elementalist's water attunement full of CDs? Then send in your thief to blind the group while the guardian bubbles hem away from your group and you ele switches over to fire to nuke them. In a trinity situation, this simply can't happen. Healer makes a mistake, tank dies, the end. Where's the teamwork, the support, the true player interaction? Raising your friend's red bar is NOT teawork; that's simply playing a UI. Forcing a mob to attack you through convoluted and nonsensical skills? Not only is this illogical, it requires no teamwork and little effort. DPS, especially, have no interaction with the team at all. So I am fully supportive of moving away from this restrictive system.
Also, the "everyone is DPS" argument doesn't hold water either. In GW2, everyone is NOT DPS. Everyone is responsible for CC, conditions, boons and team support, shutdown of enemies, bodyblocking, damage, self healing and keeping others alive, etc. You don't just stand there and go toe-to-toe with enemies DPSing until everyone dies.
I should note that I am not anti-trinity. I am, however, very supportive of having a diverse number of games with various different systems. You can keep your trinity, and I will keep my GW2 style play
If everyone can heal and insta-rez, then tactics aren't really required in boss fights anymore. Just rez them and they're back in the fight. It becomes an all-out dps race.
You can't insta-rez in GW2. It takes about 10-15 seconds to raise someone fully from death, and about 6-8 to rez them from the downed state. I would agree with you on this point: if a game had infinite insta-rez, it would probably be quite easy. GW2 does not.
Once a player dies, they're removed from the boss's aggro list, so they can pour on the dps, because they're far behind the rest of the group in the aggro ranking. As long as everyone can tank some dmg, the recycling of corpses (battlefield rez) will keep everyone in the fight indefinitely. You almost can't lose, it might just take a long time.
Aggro tables don't work at all like this in GW2.
This is ideal for a DE in GW2, which has the added benefit of not having a cap on the number of people that can join in. But as soon as you move to an instance or dungeon where there is a structured fight and a player limit, the "free-for-all" idea doesn't work anymore. There you have to have a battle plan, because it's a high pressure environment, often with very low tolerance for player error. Everybody needs to know what their role/task is in the fight, otherwise it devolves into a clusterfeck at lightspeed.
Just because there's no trinity doens't mean there's no roles. Everyone still has a part to play; they just have to be dynamic and reactive to the situation at hand and use the role most necessary for the situation. If a boss downs someone, you CC, put down a line of warding, and pick him up. If the boss puts out party wide poison or burn, you use a shout to cleanse them of their conditions. This is not possible in many MMOs. It is possible n GW2.
If there's no mechanism to direct and control a boss (i.e. aggro management), the encounter will become chaotic, and success will depend on random dice rolls. Nobody will do instances under those conditions.
ll the holy trinity does is lockdown play into a very rigid scenario with no room for error. Without this, you do have a more chaotic battlefield, but chaos is NOT bad. It brings the skill and adaptability out of players, forces them to work together and properly strategize, and makes the game more exciting as a whole.
Without the mechanisms that underlie the "holy trinity", we may as well remove instances and raids from MMO's as well.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
I think you'll find that once people really understand that dps zergs going pew pew pew are boring they'll understand what you're getting at here.
I predict the game that finally kills wow will have a trinity.
I myself would like to go the other way, give me Tank, heals, dps, control, and support, actually if you make a class dedicated to control you could do away with tanking while still keeping solid group mechanics, but I'd like there to be 4-5 roles not three.
Comments
can someone point me to a video of a GW2 fight where there is some strategy involved outside of just zerging the boss down?
all of this praise for no trinity .. and all I see are constant stuns/snares and kiting ... how is that an improvement?
im playing either way. its a fun game .. but I dont completely buy into the no trinity hype.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
my solution is to have smaller groups of three.
i would also like to see different types of tank based crowd control like lasso's, wrestles, and nets.
i always thought taunts were dumb. The problem with tanking is that it has gone too far.
Well, haven't seen as many videos myself (trying not to spoil that much for release), but the fight against Tequatl the Sunless involved adds (undead), bone walls spawned by the boss that had to be destroyed, asura techs that had to be revived so they could fix some big energy guns, that then you had to fir against the boss and other things like that. Also in the ascalon catacombs dungeon (the only one we've really seen so far) there are two bosses that have to be kept separated or they get big damage buffs, another one with adds that heal it and have to be taken down fast and so on.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
Total Biscuit GW2 video of playing in dungeons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IM2rAK0Q-8
start the video at 19:35 to see related info about engaging a boss
- they are not kiting the boss or zerging the boss but do have to use evasive manuevers
EQ2 fan sites
It's not hopeless, it just requires a new approach and for developers to keep in mind their players' capabilities while designing new fights. The skill-checks won't be identical to the ones used by earlier games, but they really shouldn't be because players want new gameplay to challenge them with new things to master (which is why MMORPGs like WOW have the trinity but have a ton of fights which ditch the trinity and/or threat-based AI entirely for entirely different mechanics.)
Videogames were able to have challenging bosses long before the trinity came around, after all.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Single player games, yes, but mmo's are a different beast.
Homogenising characters so everyone is the same detracts from the grouping experience. Why? Simple, because a group ceases to be more than the sum of it's parts. Players cease to be important to a group, they become nothing more than one of a number requirement.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Well then maybe developers should take a look at all the failed mmo's and developers should stop labeling their games MMO's so that those of us that would like a little variety in our persistant online games can have some. Tired of the same argument of mmo's need to be done in x,y,z fomula or it will fail.
I didn't see this behaviour.
Mobs just generally target those that are closer.
Guardians are just retardly overpowered (as in tanking 3 Ettins + 1 Vet Ettin) early game - greatsword deals a ton of damage and the Valor trait line has both toughness and critical damage. Aditionally the guardian signets increase damage and reduce damage. Add aegis and whatnot.
If on the other hand you are using a staff and stay in the back the mobs won't go after the guardian.
The elementalist + guardian combo is just flawed in this early areas where most mobs just focus those closer.
If both were melee they would have observed that the mobs would split evenly and any other melee class would get kicked so much easier.
Actually in my video footage I have see situations where the mobs just kept going after my GF engineer since she had taken damage.
Lastly, GW2 isn't the first game by Anet where there is not a tank and no aggro mechanic - GW1 was.
AI in GW1 went after low armor characters first, characters with Death penalty, etc.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Any time I see one of these holy trinity threads I can't help but remember when the holy trinity meant tank, heal, CC, instead of tank, heal, dps.
Yeah, I think WotLK might have messed that up with it's AOE intensive design. Hardly ever saw CC after BC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IM2rAK0Q-8
start the video at 19:35 to see related info about engaging a boss
- they are not kiting the boss or zerging the boss but do have to use evasive manuevers
looks like Baron Geddon pre-no rez update =P
kinda zergy. dps dps die, rez, dps, dps, die rez ..
im sure getting used to dodging specific moves will cut down on the deaths .. but that's hardly the kind of strategy im used to. the genre definitely needs variety and will benefit from alternatives to the trinity .. but the little I have seen doesn't look terribly awesome.
that being said it will do wonders for group pvp .. which is probably the point, really ... just a shame we can't have solid pve group content at the same time. hopefully its there and we just havent seen it yet.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
The holy Trinity is so alive on The Secret World!
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
One of those great lines from The Secret World
Getting downed is not a fail in GW2. It happens.
Still take a team of players to a new MMORPG and take them to a dungeon after less than 30 hours game time. Have that dungeon including mechanics as active dodging, weapon swapping and avoiding red circles.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Not in Diablo 3. No trinity and combat works well there. Bosses (elite & champion packs) can be rooted stunned, silenced and so on ... and still tough to beat with their abilites.
Dodging and using skills to help mitigate dmg is a hell of a lot better than your typical tank n spank where DPS just sit back n stand still n go through their rotations. When TB mention add with some nasty ranged and stuns there are mitigating ways for it. Like a guardian has a reflecttion wall for projectiles and an AoE stability that'll prevent stuns. Stuff like like makes the combat so much better than tank n spanks n going through rotations.
looks like Baron Geddon pre-no rez update =P kinda zergy. dps dps die, rez, dps, dps, die rez .. im sure getting used to dodging specific moves will cut down on the deaths .. but that's hardly the kind of strategy im used to. the genre definitely needs variety and will benefit from alternatives to the trinity .. but the little I have seen doesn't look terribly awesome. that being said it will do wonders for group pvp .. which is probably the point, really ... just a shame we can't have solid pve group content at the same time. hopefully its there and we just havent seen it yet.
Dodging and using skills to help mitigate dmg is a hell of a lot better than your typical tank n spank where DPS just sit back n stand still n go through their rotations. When TB mention add with some nasty ranged and stuns there are mitigating ways for it. Like a guardian has a reflecttion wall for projectiles and an AoE stability that'll prevent stuns. Stuff like like makes the combat so much better than tank n spanks n going through rotations.
so dodging != strafing out of pbaoe? pain supression (the old one .. no idea what it does these days), intervene, etc != mitigating abilities? the first time I killed vaelstraz there was a rogue evasion tanking at the end, pally then bubbled the rogue and kited a bit while the rogue trailed behind and got the killing blow.
taunts have obviously been taken entirely too far .. and yea .. looking for a healer sucks ... but until I can actually see how this is better .. with a video of something other than someone dieing and rezzing 3 times (not counting the other players dieing and rezzing either) .. it just doesnt seem all that revolutionary to me.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
This is how I feel about roles... they are great for introducing someone (like me) to a game, but overly restrictive to players (like me) who have been in it for some time and crave something with more versatility.
Ultimately, I prefer non-trinity. Eventually I no longer want the game telling me what I should/should not be able to do. So a highly flexible system will always garner more support from me.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Those mitagating abilites are in a rotation, I played the Warr tank in WoW n all those mitagating abilities were all in a rotation except for your very few "oh shit" moments which is a poor concept. The current trinity boils down to tanks has aggro and does his rotation, DPS spams their roattion, healer goes healbot which again is a rotation. Sure certain encounters will throw certain mechanics in the fight but thats you "don't stand in the fire" mechanic and hardly dynamic, no more than GW2 or any MMO does except DDO which is the most simplistic. Each player has tools to contribute to an outcome regardless of their role.
Dodging in GW2 = getting out if the red circle or telegraphed abilities by either strafing or running out or dodging. Some things your gonna get annihilated if you stand there no matter what class or build you are unlike WoW where the tank just eats it. Mitigating abilites = someone placing down a shield reflection wall or a stability shout or using a profession combo. Combat is much more dynamic with GW2 version of combat. Trinity is just a dumbing down and isn't nearly as proactive as GW2's style of combat.
It's a completely different mechanic and only I enjoy more because players are more proactive and contribute more to a group and advocates teamwork more than your holy trinity.
i have to agree with Loke. i personally find that i am able to tank better (tank not kite) with my mesmer than with my warrior. 2 mesmers should not need a guardian, problem is we are new to the game and we all learn to play our classes at much different rates. (great sword mesmer and then sword + pistol)has great tanking and kitting abilities.
i have nothing against the trenity, the trinity provided some fun instances of play for me, i remember back in WoW doing arena combat with my raiding paladin friend(i played exclusively fury warrior) we desimated the competitions and it was fun as hell. but the trinity has the set back that for PVE you need to have the healer and the tank, an that's just annoying. imagening stopping a run jus before the boss because your healer had to leave, those are the things i want out of the trinity.
the trinity also provides huge pvp imbalances, and as a PVPer i rather not have it at all.
Well I agree that games also shouldn't plunge down the path of homogenization, but you can avoid that even without the trinity. You can have strongly defined roles even without the trinity, and even if those roles aren't something a character class locks you into.
I wouldn't say siegers and supply-runners and raiders are a great example in GW2's WvW, but they're pretty close. Siegers are, because you're actually switching into a mode where you can basically do nothing else and need other players to defend you, but the other roles are less cut and dry.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And the post again turns into a Ford vs Chevy debate!
Really? You couldn't establish good control with a mesmer? Hmm... seems you may need more refinement with the profession. A greatsword is a nice weapon to keep foes at a distance and gives you good survivability, and I liked a staff alt weapon. Chaos storm, for one, has damage, control and supporting aspects to it, and conditions are fun.
You don't need the trinity. You need to learn your skills, see which skills have which blends of damage, control and support, and use the right skills at the right time. Don't play a role. Play the fight.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I found this post terribly ironic and somewhat hypocritical. You say that DPS players tend to be snooty and arrogant, then immediately state that they don't deserve the privelege of a rez, and insult their ability to play. Do you not see that you are exactly what you're railing against?
OT: I strongly dislike the trinity, and I won't explain why too much as people like Loke can explain that much better than I. As for GW2, you may be able to get away with zergs or trinity-emulated combat in DEs and SM dungeons, but after running explorable modes several times with different classes, it is completely impossible to get through them without planning. Some people in this thread don't seem to realize that you don't require the trinity to have tactics; in fact, with the trinity, you use the same exact tactic 95%+ of the time. I can heal in a Rift raid with my eyes closed. It's not as difficult as you want it to seem.
What requires true skill is true tactics. Needing to know boss tells, CC placements, etc., is where this skill lies. While present in holy trinity MMOs, it's all down to the tank and healer to worry about it. That's the only teamwork involved. DPS just stays out of the fire. In a game like GW2, everyone has to put in effort, and everyone has to support each other with their abilities. Is you elementalist's water attunement full of CDs? Then send in your thief to blind the group while the guardian bubbles hem away from your group and you ele switches over to fire to nuke them. In a trinity situation, this simply can't happen. Healer makes a mistake, tank dies, the end. Where's the teamwork, the support, the true player interaction? Raising your friend's red bar is NOT teawork; that's simply playing a UI. Forcing a mob to attack you through convoluted and nonsensical skills? Not only is this illogical, it requires no teamwork and little effort. DPS, especially, have no interaction with the team at all. So I am fully supportive of moving away from this restrictive system.
Also, the "everyone is DPS" argument doesn't hold water either. In GW2, everyone is NOT DPS. Everyone is responsible for CC, conditions, boons and team support, shutdown of enemies, bodyblocking, damage, self healing and keeping others alive, etc. You don't just stand there and go toe-to-toe with enemies DPSing until everyone dies.
I should note that I am not anti-trinity. I am, however, very supportive of having a diverse number of games with various different systems. You can keep your trinity, and I will keep my GW2 style play
I think you'll find that once people really understand that dps zergs going pew pew pew are boring they'll understand what you're getting at here.
I predict the game that finally kills wow will have a trinity.
I myself would like to go the other way, give me Tank, heals, dps, control, and support, actually if you make a class dedicated to control you could do away with tanking while still keeping solid group mechanics, but I'd like there to be 4-5 roles not three.