The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.
In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.
It is getting BETTER.
the genre is dead. not the market. the business of taking old console game concepts into the mmo space is huge. the genre that attempted to make virtual worlds is dead.
Yeh. The genre of virtual world is dead. But MMOs are NOT virtual worlds anymore. They are lobby based co-op games .. and this genre is flourishing.
Then they should call them what they are with a different name or acronym for that new name and not MMORPG. Because they aren't. There is nothing "Massively Multiplayer" about them. It'll also make it easier to avoid them without having to wade through all the hype text to find out what kind of game it really is.
Semantics .. semantics ...
personally i do really care what they call them. However, the common usage today *is* MMORPG.
WOW is a MMORPG.
DCUO is a MMORPG.
DDO is a MMORPG.
I play these GAMES mostly like a lobby co-op game .. because they have features supporting this style of play. I will call them MMORPG, until the day that gamespot, gamasutra, IGN, and other gaming media starting to refer them as something else. .
Calling some of the latest releases MMORPGs is like calling a Toyota Yaris a truck. They have a lot of features in common, but they aren't able to be put into that category because of a missing identifying feature or two.
Are you trying to change language use of the whole industry? Personally i really don't care what we call the category of games including WOW, DCUO, DDO and other similar ones. However, i will use the common usage.
If you have any luck changing the label used by all the gamestop employees, IGN, Gamespot, heck .. even the name of this site, let me know. I will surely send out a memo and call these games something else. Before that, i will still use the "MMORPG" term.
I don't have any dillusion that I have that kind of direct influence. But, if enough people use a name, it often sticks. As long as it's easy to use and not offensive. That doesn't mean names with buzz words or the letter X in them either.
Look, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to like or play. I'm just saying that some of these games are missing features that qualify them for words in the name of the game type they are labeled under. Calling them MMORPGs is misleading because they truly aren't.
It's annoying and frustrating, but the demand is there, and will be sated eventually. My hopes rest with archeage. I just hope I don't have kids by then so they get to have all the fun.
In other news, nariusseldon's opinions make me sick in my mouth.
Right there with ya pal.
That is funny.
You guys are affected emotionally, by some random dude (me) on the Internet? Just because i don't like what you guys like, and have no problem talking about it?
I am glad you guys are not on political forums talking about stuff that actually matters. Otherwise, you may have to see a shrink.
Yet you keep posting here. Seems like someone else cares about what some random dude (me) on the internet says.
Nah .. just fun .. otherwise why bother?
And you have to parrot what i said about you and turn it around? I thought you are all for originality?
Out of everything in that post, that is what you focused on? Talk about shallow game play lol. You started the petty posting not me. Dont you have a group to loot steal from and auto abandon coming up?
Only my 2nd post but been following this thread with a lot of interest...
I agree with the OP. Yeah the current "MMORPG" genre is alive...but it seems to have had it's heart and soul ripped out in favor of systems that's already present in other genres. It's too bad because I've been longing for another game that brought me in like the first EverQuest did. I started up Vanguard and it seems to be pretty deep with it's three systems and vast world. Having a good time so far with that.
I guess I sum it up this way. If I want a lobby game, ARPG or whatever, I will go play those games. They're out there, always have been and always will be. If I wanted to play what I would see as an MMORPG as I know it, with the vast world, communities and drama / politics and all that that goes along with it, I look for an MMORPG. The problem these days is that I feel the true spirit of the MMO got ripped out sometime after WoW came out. They aren't like they used to be. I was hoping for an EQ with better graphics and some updated systems in place to improve upon the open virtual world. Not dumbed down so I can zone out for a few hours, compile and finish quests as I nod off drooling at my keyboard like I have with the few that I've tried since WoW.
So I guess in summary...if I want lobby games I play those...if I want an open world mmo, they really aren't around anymore. Almost like when your favorite band calls it quits and you won't be getting any new stuff from them while they were in their prime, just kind of an empty feeling leaving you longing for more.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
Only my 2nd post but been following this thread with a lot of interest...
I agree with the OP. Yeah the current "MMORPG" genre is alive...but it seems to have had it's heart and soul ripped out in favor of systems that's already present in other genres. It's too bad because I've been longing for another game that brought me in like the first EverQuest did. I started up Vanguard and it seems to be pretty deep with it's three systems and vast world. Having a good time so far with that.
I guess I sum it up this way. If I want a lobby game, ARPG or whatever, I will go play those games. They're out there, always have been and always will be. If I wanted to play what I would see as an MMORPG as I know it, with the vast world, communities and drama / politics and all that that goes along with it, I look for an MMORPG. The problem these days is that I feel the true spirit of the MMO got ripped out sometime after WoW came out. They aren't like they used to be. I was hoping for an EQ with better graphics and some updated systems in place to improve upon the open virtual world. Not dumbed down so I can zone out for a few hours, compile and finish quests as I nod off drooling at my keyboard like I have with the few that I've tried since WoW.
So I guess in summary...if I want lobby games I play those...if I want an open world mmo, they really aren't around anymore. Almost like when your favorite band calls it quits and you won't be getting any new stuff from them while they were in their prime, just kind of an empty feeling leaving you longing for more.
This.
Kind of what I was trying to get at with my posts as well. I want an MMORPG, not another game being called an MMORPG. If I want that other type of game, it's there. But, the game I'm looking for, a MMORPG, doesn't really seem to exist unless I want to go back and try to re live that game again. A game I left for a reason.
And, you can't really call it evolution in my eyes. I don't see current ones as an evolution or next step. I see them as something without a soul/life to it. Which, just does not keep my attention. As I said earlier, convenience has removed an integral part of the game that I sorely miss. I miss the complexity. I miss the community. I miss the experience. I miss the journey.
I'm not saying all those old games were perfect either. I left them for a reason. But, I want the evolution of that style of game, not what we got.
If people are happy with current ones, more power to them. I wish I could be happy with them as well. But, I can't.
The naming thing is just pointing out that they are not the same game or even an evolution. They are missing parts that are what made an MMORPG an MMORPG. Parts that are part of why we call them MMORPGs. It's in the bloody name.
it doese suck ive fall asleep in mmos now and to stay awake i had to go to shooters same crap for last 10 years i hate that all mmos have followed wows modell i hope that something good with fresh combat system comes out soon
You can blame/thank Blizzard for that, by the way, because they've shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that the market for constant and instantly-gratifying entertainment is easier to work with, more predictable and stable than the market that exists for games offering entertainment through inhabiting a Virtual World.
Except that's the exact opposite of the truth. WoW is (or was) much more of a virtual world than almost all the other games that came out afterwards.
(Virtual world =/= sandbox.)
.
That's why there's LFG tools, instant travel, jump-in PvP, auction house etc. -To make the game casual-friendly. Many features in virtual world is against this.
Bull. Casual gamers didn't go on forums and whine incessantly about what they wanted. The people who successfully whined these games into their current state were (and are) extremely competitive hardcore raiders and pvpers who only like one aspect of these games and want to make sure they can get to the part they like as quickly and easily as possible. The competitiveness that makes them inclined to raiding and pvp in the first place was simply applied to forum pvp.
The failure of so many of the big games of the last few years is because developers believed they represented casuals.
Only my 2nd post but been following this thread with a lot of interest...
I agree with the OP. Yeah the current "MMORPG" genre is alive...but it seems to have had it's heart and soul ripped out in favor of systems that's already present in other genres. It's too bad because I've been longing for another game that brought me in like the first EverQuest did. I started up Vanguard and it seems to be pretty deep with it's three systems and vast world. Having a good time so far with that.
I guess I sum it up this way. If I want a lobby game, ARPG or whatever, I will go play those games. They're out there, always have been and always will be. If I wanted to play what I would see as an MMORPG as I know it, with the vast world, communities and drama / politics and all that that goes along with it, I look for an MMORPG. The problem these days is that I feel the true spirit of the MMO got ripped out sometime after WoW came out. They aren't like they used to be. I was hoping for an EQ with better graphics and some updated systems in place to improve upon the open virtual world. Not dumbed down so I can zone out for a few hours, compile and finish quests as I nod off drooling at my keyboard like I have with the few that I've tried since WoW.
So I guess in summary...if I want lobby games I play those...if I want an open world mmo, they really aren't around anymore. Almost like when your favorite band calls it quits and you won't be getting any new stuff from them while they were in their prime, just kind of an empty feeling leaving you longing for more.
This.
Kind of what I was trying to get at with my posts as well. I want an MMORPG, not another game being called an MMORPG. If I want that other type of game, it's there. But, the game I'm looking for, a MMORPG, doesn't really seem to exist unless I want to go back and try to re live that game again. A game I left for a reason.
And, you can't really call it evolution in my eyes. I don't see current ones as an evolution or next step. I see them as something without a soul/life to it. Which, just does not keep my attention. As I said earlier, convenience has removed an integral part of the game that I sorely miss. I miss the complexity. I miss the community. I miss the experience. I miss the journey.
I'm not saying all those old games were perfect either. I left them for a reason. But, I want the evolution of that style of game, not what we got.
If people are happy with current ones, more power to them. I wish I could be happy with them as well. But, I can't.
The naming thing is just pointing out that they are not the same game or even an evolution. They are missing parts that are what made an MMORPG an MMORPG. Parts that are part of why we call them MMORPGs. It's in the bloody name.
+10 to both posts here and its my sentament exactly.
You can blame/thank Blizzard for that, by the way, because they've shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that the market for constant and instantly-gratifying entertainment is easier to work with, more predictable and stable than the market that exists for games offering entertainment through inhabiting a Virtual World.
Except that's the exact opposite of the truth. WoW is (or was) much more of a virtual world than almost all the other games that came out afterwards.
(Virtual world =/= sandbox.)
.
That's why there's LFG tools, instant travel, jump-in PvP, auction house etc. -To make the game casual-friendly. Many features in virtual world is against this.
Bull. Casual gamers didn't go on forums and whine incessantly about what they wanted. The people who successfully whined these games into their current state were (and are) extremely competitive hardcore raiders and pvpers who only like one aspect of these games and want to make sure they can get to the part they like as quickly and easily as possible. The competitiveness that makes them inclined to raiding and pvp in the first place was simply applied to forum pvp.
The failure of so many of the big games of the last few years is because developers believed they represented casuals.
I dont believe this to be true at all. It was the casuals that got tired of seeing those "hardcore" people with all the great gears and fat wallets ( back in venilla wow wasent easy to get ) and wanted it to.
Problem was they dident want to put in the time to get these things. Screeming " HEY! we pay 15 a month just like they do! We should have access to everything they get but on MY schedule! Devs were like lets see what we can do to make it easier for them (casuals).
One thing after another they started changing game mechanics to please casulas. Years later you have this garbage we have before us today. The Hardcore player has no problem putting in the time it takes to this or that. It was the CASULAS that wanted to play on equal ground with them without wanting to put in the time.
Enter insta porting and AH features. Someone eluded to this in a previous post but said you can thank POP for the adding of intan porting. And the AH feature is on the the worst things that have been put into MMOs imo. Long gone are player built stores. I use the like looking through all the player shops looking for good deals. When i had some down time playing a game i whould shot over and just start browsing shops.
Add in all the other pussy featurs such as x-sever LFD/LFG tools Que up for instances from anywhere at anytime tab. Its got so bad that a mmo (rift) has a feature called INSTANT ADVENTURE! the instant gratifacation is right in the name! Now its like Cosco. A one stop shop wonderland where you can buy everything you need without knowing what it is yet.
Sorry iv rambled on. Being a bitter MMO gamer tends to make me rambel.
I dont believe this to be true at all. It was the casuals that got tired of seeing those "hardcore" people with all the great gears and fat wallets ( back in venilla wow wasent easy to get ) and wanted it to.
Problem was they dident want to put in the time to get these things. Screeming " HEY! we pay 15 a month just like they do! We should have access to everything they get but on MY schedule! Devs were like lets see what we can do to make it easier for them (casuals).
The writing was on the wall for WoW, though. Vanilla was not really designed for casuals in the endame sense, but the rest of the game was very casual accessible (much more than the existing ones like EQ or DAoC and even much more than current competition at the time like EQ2 was at release). This led to the game having a HUGE, huge amount of casual players -- far, far more than any MMO had ever had before. It was that population shift away from MMOs being dominated population-wise by hardcore players and towards the population being dominated by casuals that kind of forced Blizzard's hand. It wanted to maintain the subs of these casuals, and so ultimately it started to design the entire game around them because that was their payday -- they didn't want to drive the huge, unprecedented number of casual gamers they had attracted (who were worth hundreds of millions of subscription fees) away by keeping the endgame very hardcore oriented. Blizzard became captive to the playerbase it attracted, ultimately.
I dont believe this to be true at all. It was the casuals that got tired of seeing those "hardcore" people with all the great gears and fat wallets ( back in venilla wow wasent easy to get ) and wanted it to.
Problem was they dident want to put in the time to get these things. Screeming " HEY! we pay 15 a month just like they do! We should have access to everything they get but on MY schedule! Devs were like lets see what we can do to make it easier for them (casuals).
The writing was on the wall for WoW, though. Vanilla was not really designed for casuals in the endame sense, but the rest of the game was very casual accessible (much more than the existing ones like EQ or DAoC and even much more than current competition at the time like EQ2 was at release). This led to the game having a HUGE, huge amount of casual players -- far, far more than any MMO had ever had before. It was that population shift away from MMOs being dominated population-wise by hardcore players and towards the population being dominated by casuals that kind of forced Blizzard's hand. It wanted to maintain the subs of these casuals, and so ultimately it started to design the entire game around them because that was their payday -- they didn't want to drive the huge, unprecedented number of casual gamers they had attracted (who were worth hundreds of millions of subscription fees) away by keeping the endgame very hardcore oriented. Blizzard became captive to the playerbase it attracted, ultimately.
Originally posted by paroxysm Originally posted by Trudge34Only my 2nd post but been following this thread with a lot of interest...I agree with the OP. Yeah the current "MMORPG" genre is alive...but it seems to have had it's heart and soul ripped out in favor of systems that's already present in other genres. It's too bad because I've been longing for another game that brought me in like the first EverQuest did. I started up Vanguard and it seems to be pretty deep with it's three systems and vast world. Having a good time so far with that.I guess I sum it up this way. If I want a lobby game, ARPG or whatever, I will go play those games. They're out there, always have been and always will be. If I wanted to play what I would see as an MMORPG as I know it, with the vast world, communities and drama / politics and all that that goes along with it, I look for an MMORPG. The problem these days is that I feel the true spirit of the MMO got ripped out sometime after WoW came out. They aren't like they used to be. I was hoping for an EQ with better graphics and some updated systems in place to improve upon the open virtual world. Not dumbed down so I can zone out for a few hours, compile and finish quests as I nod off drooling at my keyboard like I have with the few that I've tried since WoW.So I guess in summary...if I want lobby games I play those...if I want an open world mmo, they really aren't around anymore. Almost like when your favorite band calls it quits and you won't be getting any new stuff from them while they were in their prime, just kind of an empty feeling leaving you longing for more.
This.
Kind of what I was trying to get at with my posts as well. I want an MMORPG, not another game being called an MMORPG. If I want that other type of game, it's there. But, the game I'm looking for, a MMORPG, doesn't really seem to exist unless I want to go back and try to re live that game again. A game I left for a reason.
And, you can't really call it evolution in my eyes. I don't see current ones as an evolution or next step. I see them as something without a soul/life to it. Which, just does not keep my attention. As I said earlier, convenience has removed an integral part of the game that I sorely miss. I miss the complexity. I miss the community. I miss the experience. I miss the journey.
I'm not saying all those old games were perfect either. I left them for a reason. But, I want the evolution of that style of game, not what we got.
If people are happy with current ones, more power to them. I wish I could be happy with them as well. But, I can't.
The naming thing is just pointing out that they are not the same game or even an evolution. They are missing parts that are what made an MMORPG an MMORPG. Parts that are part of why we call them MMORPGs. It's in the bloody name.
This is encapsulates the spirit of this thread. I'm not here to say "no more themeparks" or "sandbox or bust". I'm not saying the games we have now are bad. They have their place and their demographics and an extremely healthy market share. But they have literally replaced the virtual worlds that this genre started out as and that needs to be rectified. That is the fault of both the players and the developers. We let a truly unique genre slip away and die. There are some flickers of hope coming in the next couple years and I hope the developers put the time and effort into making a fully realized virtual world again. And I hope we respond in kind with our participation to let them know they are doing it right.
Love how long this thread went. I love it. while I was hospitalized this week it gave me something to read. Today I finally got out so happy to be out.
Originally posted by Laross Love how long this thread went. I love it. while I was hospitalized this week it gave me something to read. Today I finally got out so happy to be out.
Well I'm glad you are feeling better. Hope it wasn't too serious. And I'm also glad we could be some free entertainment while stuck in bed hehe
Originally posted by laokoko Originally posted by kantseemeOriginally posted by laokokoSo you think the "majority" of the players like features such as long travel time. Non instanced pvp and pve?And you havn't say why you can't just go play Eve. I'm wondering.
Out of everything in that post, that is what you focused on? Talk about shallow game play lol. You started the petty posting not me. Dont you have a group to loot steal from and auto abandon coming up?
Shallow gameplay? WOW combat mechancis is 100x more complex and interesting than that of EQ, so is D3. There was no proc, no CD, no mana management ... just nuke nuke nuke (for a DPS) in EQ. Thank god developers know where to focus depth.
Hmm ... loot steal is so yesterday. New progress in MMO (or APRG) looting system (like that of D3, and the newer LFR in WOW) would have NO loot stealing since loot will be dropped independently for every player. No more rolling against another person.
Kind of what I was trying to get at with my posts as well. I want an MMORPG, not another game being called an MMORPG. If I want that other type of game, it's there. But, the game I'm looking for, a MMORPG, doesn't really seem to exist unless I want to go back and try to re live that game again. A game I left for a reason.
Things change. Industry progresses. We don't always get what we want.
And, you can't really call it evolution in my eyes. I don't see current ones as an evolution or next step. I see them as something without a soul/life to it. Which, just does not keep my attention. As I said earlier, convenience has removed an integral part of the game that I sorely miss. I miss the complexity. I miss the community. I miss the experience. I miss the journey.
That is your own interpretion. If you read WOW dev notes, you see the kind of thought they put into their system. Their philosophy may not what you like, but no soul .. that is such an empty cliche. If a game is fun for me, that is quite enough.
Convenience is good. Today's game has much more complex combat system than that before. For example, i play a wiz back in EQ when it released, there was no proc, no CD, no mana management, no talent tree .. saying the old games are more complex is just not true.
Miss the community? You can always make new friends. I had friends back in EQ too .. don't miss them a bit. Don't miss the "community" of bickering campers debating whose turn is next to kill the boss.
I'm not saying all those old games were perfect either. I left them for a reason. But, I want the evolution of that style of game, not what we got.
We got evoluation ... away from the style of old MMOs .. precisely because they are worse vidoe games than today's MMO.
If people are happy with current ones, more power to them. I wish I could be happy with them as well. But, I can't.
I am. Thank you. May you find happiness somewhere else. You know, MMOs are not the ONLY entertainment on earth.
The naming thing is just pointing out that they are not the same game or even an evolution. They are missing parts that are what made an MMORPG an MMORPG. Parts that are part of why we call them MMORPGs. It's in the bloody name.
Of course they are not the same game, that is what evolution means. Things change. Yeah, they are missing parts .. parts that many people do not want. Whether you call a MMO based on those parts is irrelevant. Language use does not depend on the judgment of one person.
If you can change how the whole industry call these games, more power to you.
This is encapsulates the spirit of this thread. I'm not here to say "no more themeparks" or "sandbox or bust". I'm not saying the games we have now are bad. They have their place and their demographics and an extremely healthy market share. But they have literally replaced the virtual worlds that this genre started out as and that needs to be rectified. That is the fault of both the players and the developers. We let a truly unique genre slip away and die. There are some flickers of hope coming in the next couple years and I hope the developers put the time and effort into making a fully realized virtual world again. And I hope we respond in kind with our participation to let them know they are doing it right.
"rectified"? "fault"? I get that you do not like where things are. But preference is preference. You "fault" others of what they like?
Sorry, i do NOT apologize for my preference. There is no problem .. from my perspective. If virtual world games die .. so they die. Graphics adventures died. Text adventure died. (actually these two .. there are still small indie development, so depends on how you define "die"). Lock room mystery died. Dinosaurs died.
So what? Things died all the time throughhistory. Slide rules "died" too .. do you want to bring it back and claim it to be the the "fault" of calculators?
If virtual world comes back, it is because someone can make them into compeling entertainment offerings. I doubt posting a lot in an internet forum will change that.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Foomerang This is encapsulates the spirit of this thread. I'm not here to say "no more themeparks" or "sandbox or bust". I'm not saying the games we have now are bad. They have their place and their demographics and an extremely healthy market share. But they have literally replaced the virtual worlds that this genre started out as and that needs to be rectified. That is the fault of both the players and the developers. We let a truly unique genre slip away and die. There are some flickers of hope coming in the next couple years and I hope the developers put the time and effort into making a fully realized virtual world again. And I hope we respond in kind with our participation to let them know they are doing it right.
"rectified"? "fault"? I get that you do not like where things are. But preference is preference. You "fault" others of what they like?
Sorry, i do NOT apologize for my preference. There is no problem .. from my perspective. If virtual world games die .. so they die. Graphics adventures died. Text adventure died. (actually these two .. there are still small indie development, so depends on how you define "die"). Lock room mystery died. Dinosaurs died.
So what? Things died all the time throughhistory. Slide rules "died" too .. do you want to bring it back and claim it to be the the "fault" of calculators?
If virtual world comes back, it is because someone can make them into compeling entertainment offerings. I doubt posting a lot in an internet forum will change that.
I'm not bashing your preference. I'm not trying to get rid of your favorite type of mmo.
Things change. Industry progresses. We don't always get what we want.
That is your own interpretion. If you read WOW dev notes, you see the kind of thought they put into their system. Their philosophy may not what you like, but no soul .. that is such an empty cliche. If a game is fun for me, that is quite enough.
Convenience is good. Today's game has much more complex combat system than that before. For example, i play a wiz back in EQ when it released, there was no proc, no CD, no mana management, no talent tree .. saying the old games are more complex is just not true.
Miss the community? You can always make new friends. I had friends back in EQ too .. don't miss them a bit. Don't miss the "community" of bickering campers debating whose turn is next to kill the boss.
We got evoluation ... away from the style of old MMOs .. precisely because they are worse vidoe games than today's MMO.
I am. Thank you. May you find happiness somewhere else. You know, MMOs are not the ONLY entertainment on earth.
Of course they are not the same game, that is what evolution means. Things change. Yeah, they are missing parts .. parts that many people do not want. Whether you call a MMO based on those parts is irrelevant. Language use does not depend on the judgment of one person.
If you can change how the whole industry call these games, more power to you.
Indeed. We got change. It's not what I want. Am I wrong to want what I like?
We've been over this. I'm happy you have plenty of choices for games made in the way you like. Do you really not want me to have a choice as well? Because in that situation, I'll stick to not paying for them or playing them. That's just my personal choice.
WoW is currently all about removing choice and variance. That's not complex to me.
Is EQ the only older MMO you've played, because a lot of them had/still have everything you mentioned. As well as, more requirements to equip gear than just being the right level or the right class. Equipping anything in Anarchy Online was a mini puzzle that took time, planning, and often help from others. Newer games are completely removing attributes. They are reducing the size and choice of talent trees. They are reducing the number of skills you can use at one time. I would not call that being complex. You could argue the value of the choices of some of the older games, but you can't say newer games are more complex by any stretch of the imagination.
Friends List != Community It's not even close to the same thing. Also, I am still part of and keep in touch via the forums of a very old and very popular guild. I didn't just leave them behind when the game changed. Even if we aren't all playing the same game, we keep in touch. More than mere acquaintances.
Different game types than the ones you like being worse to everyone is a pretty self centered ideal.
I would not call new games an evolution. They are a fork in the development.
If the name of the genre is made up of words that describe the games within them, I'd say that's fairly specific.
This conversation is becoming pointless because you only care about what you want. Which, no one is trying to take away from you or belittle in the slightest. Everything doesn't have to be your way just as it doesn't have to be my way. Currently games are trending in the way you like. That's why I said "I want" instead of I demand or any such nonsense. I don't want to stop them from making the games you like. I'd just like to see some that I like as well. I'm sorry you can't seem to understand that. Good day.
I hate the quote systems of these forums... My replies are in the last box for no apparent reason. At 2:21 AM on 8-13-12 the MMORPG Forums Enhanced Editor became self aware... God help us all...
Yes things do change, nothing is set in amber. But they change for the worse, not always the better. I think some players are too enamoured of pretty graphics and easy questing. The joy of exploration, crafting. group play and roleplaying has been lost. I was not a fan of all those old school MMO principles, never really took to crafting myself, but most of us miss one or two things that old MMO’s did so much better.
It seems GW2 does not have raids, not sure about that as I only just noticed it on another thread. If that is true it is simply one more nail in the coffin for MMO’s. How anyone can say these ezMMO’s are the same sort of games as the old MMO’s beggars belief.
Out of everything in that post, that is what you focused on? Talk about shallow game play lol. You started the petty posting not me. Dont you have a group to loot steal from and auto abandon coming up?
Shallow gameplay? WOW combat mechancis is 100x more complex and interesting than that of EQ, so is D3. There was no proc, no CD, no mana management ... just nuke nuke nuke (for a DPS) in EQ. Thank god developers know where to focus depth.
Shallow game play was refering your your shallow atempt at a retort. Not whatever the hell it is you were trying to say. Playing off the the word shallow as in how you like your gameplay and your forum posts. But i didnt think you would connect the two anyway.
Hmm ... loot steal is so yesterday. New progress in MMO (or APRG) looting system (like that of D3, and the newer LFR in WOW) would have NO loot stealing since loot will be dropped independently for every player. No more rolling against another person.
Why would i expect anything less from someone who loves the types of games that you love. Heres my surprise face...
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I don't have any dillusion that I have that kind of direct influence. But, if enough people use a name, it often sticks. As long as it's easy to use and not offensive. That doesn't mean names with buzz words or the letter X in them either.
Look, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to like or play. I'm just saying that some of these games are missing features that qualify them for words in the name of the game type they are labeled under. Calling them MMORPGs is misleading because they truly aren't.
Out of everything in that post, that is what you focused on? Talk about shallow game play lol. You started the petty posting not me. Dont you have a group to loot steal from and auto abandon coming up?
Only my 2nd post but been following this thread with a lot of interest...
I agree with the OP. Yeah the current "MMORPG" genre is alive...but it seems to have had it's heart and soul ripped out in favor of systems that's already present in other genres. It's too bad because I've been longing for another game that brought me in like the first EverQuest did. I started up Vanguard and it seems to be pretty deep with it's three systems and vast world. Having a good time so far with that.
I guess I sum it up this way. If I want a lobby game, ARPG or whatever, I will go play those games. They're out there, always have been and always will be. If I wanted to play what I would see as an MMORPG as I know it, with the vast world, communities and drama / politics and all that that goes along with it, I look for an MMORPG. The problem these days is that I feel the true spirit of the MMO got ripped out sometime after WoW came out. They aren't like they used to be. I was hoping for an EQ with better graphics and some updated systems in place to improve upon the open virtual world. Not dumbed down so I can zone out for a few hours, compile and finish quests as I nod off drooling at my keyboard like I have with the few that I've tried since WoW.
So I guess in summary...if I want lobby games I play those...if I want an open world mmo, they really aren't around anymore. Almost like when your favorite band calls it quits and you won't be getting any new stuff from them while they were in their prime, just kind of an empty feeling leaving you longing for more.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
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This.
Kind of what I was trying to get at with my posts as well. I want an MMORPG, not another game being called an MMORPG. If I want that other type of game, it's there. But, the game I'm looking for, a MMORPG, doesn't really seem to exist unless I want to go back and try to re live that game again. A game I left for a reason.
And, you can't really call it evolution in my eyes. I don't see current ones as an evolution or next step. I see them as something without a soul/life to it. Which, just does not keep my attention. As I said earlier, convenience has removed an integral part of the game that I sorely miss. I miss the complexity. I miss the community. I miss the experience. I miss the journey.
I'm not saying all those old games were perfect either. I left them for a reason. But, I want the evolution of that style of game, not what we got.
If people are happy with current ones, more power to them. I wish I could be happy with them as well. But, I can't.
The naming thing is just pointing out that they are not the same game or even an evolution. They are missing parts that are what made an MMORPG an MMORPG. Parts that are part of why we call them MMORPGs. It's in the bloody name.
You can blame/thank Blizzard for that, by the way, because they've shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that the market for constant and instantly-gratifying entertainment is easier to work with, more predictable and stable than the market that exists for games offering entertainment through inhabiting a Virtual World.
Except that's the exact opposite of the truth. WoW is (or was) much more of a virtual world than almost all the other games that came out afterwards.
(Virtual world =/= sandbox.)
.
That's why there's LFG tools, instant travel, jump-in PvP, auction house etc. -To make the game casual-friendly. Many features in virtual world is against this.
Bull. Casual gamers didn't go on forums and whine incessantly about what they wanted. The people who successfully whined these games into their current state were (and are) extremely competitive hardcore raiders and pvpers who only like one aspect of these games and want to make sure they can get to the part they like as quickly and easily as possible. The competitiveness that makes them inclined to raiding and pvp in the first place was simply applied to forum pvp.
The failure of so many of the big games of the last few years is because developers believed they represented casuals.
+10 to both posts here and its my sentament exactly.
I dont believe this to be true at all. It was the casuals that got tired of seeing those "hardcore" people with all the great gears and fat wallets ( back in venilla wow wasent easy to get ) and wanted it to.
Problem was they dident want to put in the time to get these things. Screeming " HEY! we pay 15 a month just like they do! We should have access to everything they get but on MY schedule! Devs were like lets see what we can do to make it easier for them (casuals).
One thing after another they started changing game mechanics to please casulas. Years later you have this garbage we have before us today. The Hardcore player has no problem putting in the time it takes to this or that. It was the CASULAS that wanted to play on equal ground with them without wanting to put in the time.
Enter insta porting and AH features. Someone eluded to this in a previous post but said you can thank POP for the adding of intan porting. And the AH feature is on the the worst things that have been put into MMOs imo. Long gone are player built stores. I use the like looking through all the player shops looking for good deals. When i had some down time playing a game i whould shot over and just start browsing shops.
Add in all the other pussy featurs such as x-sever LFD/LFG tools Que up for instances from anywhere at anytime tab. Its got so bad that a mmo (rift) has a feature called INSTANT ADVENTURE! the instant gratifacation is right in the name! Now its like Cosco. A one stop shop wonderland where you can buy everything you need without knowing what it is yet.
Sorry iv rambled on. Being a bitter MMO gamer tends to make me rambel.
The writing was on the wall for WoW, though. Vanilla was not really designed for casuals in the endame sense, but the rest of the game was very casual accessible (much more than the existing ones like EQ or DAoC and even much more than current competition at the time like EQ2 was at release). This led to the game having a HUGE, huge amount of casual players -- far, far more than any MMO had ever had before. It was that population shift away from MMOs being dominated population-wise by hardcore players and towards the population being dominated by casuals that kind of forced Blizzard's hand. It wanted to maintain the subs of these casuals, and so ultimately it started to design the entire game around them because that was their payday -- they didn't want to drive the huge, unprecedented number of casual gamers they had attracted (who were worth hundreds of millions of subscription fees) away by keeping the endgame very hardcore oriented. Blizzard became captive to the playerbase it attracted, ultimately.
The case of bigger isent always better.
Kind of what I was trying to get at with my posts as well. I want an MMORPG, not another game being called an MMORPG. If I want that other type of game, it's there. But, the game I'm looking for, a MMORPG, doesn't really seem to exist unless I want to go back and try to re live that game again. A game I left for a reason.
And, you can't really call it evolution in my eyes. I don't see current ones as an evolution or next step. I see them as something without a soul/life to it. Which, just does not keep my attention. As I said earlier, convenience has removed an integral part of the game that I sorely miss. I miss the complexity. I miss the community. I miss the experience. I miss the journey.
I'm not saying all those old games were perfect either. I left them for a reason. But, I want the evolution of that style of game, not what we got.
If people are happy with current ones, more power to them. I wish I could be happy with them as well. But, I can't.
The naming thing is just pointing out that they are not the same game or even an evolution. They are missing parts that are what made an MMORPG an MMORPG. Parts that are part of why we call them MMORPGs. It's in the bloody name.
This is encapsulates the spirit of this thread. I'm not here to say "no more themeparks" or "sandbox or bust". I'm not saying the games we have now are bad. They have their place and their demographics and an extremely healthy market share. But they have literally replaced the virtual worlds that this genre started out as and that needs to be rectified. That is the fault of both the players and the developers. We let a truly unique genre slip away and die. There are some flickers of hope coming in the next couple years and I hope the developers put the time and effort into making a fully realized virtual world again. And I hope we respond in kind with our participation to let them know they are doing it right.
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Well I'm glad you are feeling better. Hope it wasn't too serious. And I'm also glad we could be some free entertainment while stuck in bed hehe
So you think the "majority" of the players like features such as long travel time. Non instanced pvp and pve?
And you havn't say why you can't just go play Eve. I'm wondering.
Who is this post for?
The OP
The OP
no. i dont.
Shallow gameplay? WOW combat mechancis is 100x more complex and interesting than that of EQ, so is D3. There was no proc, no CD, no mana management ... just nuke nuke nuke (for a DPS) in EQ. Thank god developers know where to focus depth.
Hmm ... loot steal is so yesterday. New progress in MMO (or APRG) looting system (like that of D3, and the newer LFR in WOW) would have NO loot stealing since loot will be dropped independently for every player. No more rolling against another person.
I don't know about "majority" since i have not seen a survey. But *i* do NOT like long travel time, nor non-instanced pvp and pve.
"rectified"? "fault"? I get that you do not like where things are. But preference is preference. You "fault" others of what they like?
Sorry, i do NOT apologize for my preference. There is no problem .. from my perspective. If virtual world games die .. so they die. Graphics adventures died. Text adventure died. (actually these two .. there are still small indie development, so depends on how you define "die"). Lock room mystery died. Dinosaurs died.
So what? Things died all the time throughhistory. Slide rules "died" too .. do you want to bring it back and claim it to be the the "fault" of calculators?
If virtual world comes back, it is because someone can make them into compeling entertainment offerings. I doubt posting a lot in an internet forum will change that.
Sorry, i do NOT apologize for my preference. There is no problem .. from my perspective. If virtual world games die .. so they die. Graphics adventures died. Text adventure died. (actually these two .. there are still small indie development, so depends on how you define "die"). Lock room mystery died. Dinosaurs died.
So what? Things died all the time throughhistory. Slide rules "died" too .. do you want to bring it back and claim it to be the the "fault" of calculators?
If virtual world comes back, it is because someone can make them into compeling entertainment offerings. I doubt posting a lot in an internet forum will change that.
I'm not bashing your preference. I'm not trying to get rid of your favorite type of mmo.
I hate the quote systems of these forums... My replies are in the last box for no apparent reason. At 2:21 AM on 8-13-12 the MMORPG Forums Enhanced Editor became self aware... God help us all...
Yes things do change, nothing is set in amber. But they change for the worse, not always the better. I think some players are too enamoured of pretty graphics and easy questing. The joy of exploration, crafting. group play and roleplaying has been lost. I was not a fan of all those old school MMO principles, never really took to crafting myself, but most of us miss one or two things that old MMO’s did so much better.
It seems GW2 does not have raids, not sure about that as I only just noticed it on another thread. If that is true it is simply one more nail in the coffin for MMO’s. How anyone can say these ezMMO’s are the same sort of games as the old MMO’s beggars belief.
Shallow game play was refering your your shallow atempt at a retort. Not whatever the hell it is you were trying to say. Playing off the the word shallow as in how you like your gameplay and your forum posts. But i didnt think you would connect the two anyway.
Why would i expect anything less from someone who loves the types of games that you love. Heres my surprise face...
Ops Sorry. That my other face i have for you.