The discussion was about freedom. Choosing from a pool of 25 skills gives you more freedom than choosing 2 of 5 skillsets with 5 skills each. There is no disputing that.
The weapons are just names for a skillset. Thats it. Name them skillset 1 to 5 or after fruits for all I care. Its just packaging. Comparing the amount of physical weapons a class can have is simply NOT relevant when talking about the skill systems in general. If I chose the 5 defensive skills of the 25 as my main skills, wouldn't I be defensive? If I chose 5 offensive skills, wouldn't I be offensive?
Sigh.
It's not the "amount".... it's the freedom of playstyle the weapon sets give you. You want to play a support guardian? you can. You want to play a damage dealing Guardian? you can. You want to play a control guardian? you can.
Originally posted by Inf666
You do know that you can heavily modify those Tera skills (glyph system)? So if I want to play an offensive warrior I will modify the offensive skills (dps melee). If I want to play a defensive warrior I will change the modifications to the defensive skills (tank). This way I have far more possibilites to individualize my character. It is not as limited as you put it out to be.
Hello? I already said multiple times. As a warrior in Tera you can have a defensive playstlye and an offensive playstyle. But that's only the warrior. So overall Tera has NINE playstyle.
And the fact that warrior is the only hybrid class in game has been only an headache for the developers and players since tanking as a warrior is a nightmare and basically almost everyone want a lancer tank at high levels.
And rightfully so!
Why would you roll a lancer if a warrior could tank just as well AND switch to dps playstyle whenever he wants. Bad design is bad! And they are going crazy trying to patch the warrior and strike a balance.
But anyway "the far more possibilities" you speak of are the same old NINE playstyle. 8 classes -> 9 playstyles. Yeah the class system in Tera is horrible.
Glyph can't do anything.
Can you make a dps lancer? NO
Can you do a healing sorcerer? NO
Can you do a tank priest? NO
No freedom and no variety.
Originally posted by Inf666
As for your chart. Do you really think an engineer or a mesmer will be the main tank against endgame bosses? Do you really think a guardian will outdamage an elementalist or thief? Really? How do I heal as a thief or a mesmer? Oh I can't. Since in your chart an engineer can be everything, then an all-engineer team would be as effective as a mixed one?
Seriously...... did you even play the game?
Because by your questions i guess you didn't play the game at all. You're just trolling.
YES you can have an all-engineer team and being as complete a dungeon. Or even a full guardian team. Or a full elementalist team.
Two elementalist and 3 thief? fine too.
A mesmer can control an endgame boss just fine and a dps guardian can outdamage a control elementalist
Pretty shocking to have this much freedom huh?
That's what a game with no Holy Trinity is like. Sweet freedom. My time as a player is value i don't want to sit in Velika for 1 hour looking for a tank (and then get kicked because i don't have enough gearscore lol).
Originally posted by Inf666
To make it short. If there was a second GW2 with the TERA combat system a lot of players (yes even those esport players *gasp*) would choose it over the current GW2. You may not want to see it or you may not want to understand it, but thats the way it is.
To make it short. NO lol
You're just grasping at straws.
9 playstyle over god knows only how many? lol no
Holy trinity over complete freedom? lol no
No interraction over combo profession? lol no
You may not want to see it or you may not want to understand it, but thats the way it is.
And don't try even try to reply. You basically knows nothing about GW2 combat. You "saw" videos and decided that one class has one playstyle (lol). You even asked if you can do a dungeon with 5 engeneer (lol).
Originally posted by Inf666
GW2 is not the holy grail and has its flaws like every other game in history. In 1-2 years there will be a new game that will replace it. Calling players insane because they think differently just does one thing: put you on the level of a fanatic.
Oh.... here we go with the last desperate line of defense "well it's not the holy graly blah blah it must have some flaws here and there blah blah."
Saying "one class = one playstyle" in GW2 is not "thinking different".... it's lying or just being ignorant.
Asking "you cannot tank as a mesmer!" ... it's just being being ignorant not "thinking different".
Come back when you are not so misinformed and stop calling more informed people "fanatics".
Otherwise
Joe : "Hey guise in Tera i can heal just fine with my lancer!"
Bob: "No you can't"
Joe: "And i can change my glyphs on my sorcerer and tank the next dungeons"
Bob: "No you can't"
Joe: "Really? Tera is not the holy grail! I'm just thinking different and you're a fanatic!"
It's not the "amount".... it's the freedom of playstyle the weapon sets give you. You want to play a support guardian? you can. You want to play a damage dealing Guardian? you can. You want to play a control guardian? you can.
If a damage dealing specced guardian does as much dmg as a damage dealing specced elementalist, then I agree. Otherwise I would force the guardin to play tank/control and the elementilst to play damage dealer. They wouldn't have a choice at all.
Why? The stronger the group the easier the content becomes. Specialists are in most cases more effective than generalists. What do you think will happen when in endgame the dungeons become so hard that ineffective spec choices are not used anymore? Yep we are back at the holy trinity: LFM Elem with dmg spec + Guardian with tank spec.
Originally posted by otacu
Originally posted by Inf666 ...
Hello? I already said multiple times. As a warrior in Tera you can have a defensive playstlye and an offensive playstyle. But that's only the warrior. So overall Tera has NINE playstyle.
And the fact that warrior is the only hybrid class in game has been only an headache for the developers and players since tanking as a warrior is a nightmare and basically almost everyone want a lancer tank at high levels.
And rightfully so!
Why would you roll a lancer if a warrior could tank just as well AND switch to dps playstyle whenever he wants. Bad design is bad! And they are going crazy trying to patch the warrior and strike a balance.
But anyway "the far more possibilities" you speak of are the same old NINE playstyle. 8 classes -> 9 playstyles. Yeah the class system in Tera is horrible.
Glyph can't do anything.
Can you make a dps lancer? NO
Can you do a healing sorcerer? NO
Can you do a tank priest? NO
No freedom and no variety.
And I keep telling you that there is more to it than that. Yes a sorc will never become a tank but still has many different specs. If you spec one sorc for mana efficiency and one for burst damage they will play differently. Maybe there is not as much differentiation as in GW2 but there still are far more than playstyles than your 9.
Look at it like this: A sorc in tera has lets say 5 different effective skill specs. Thats 5 different damage dealer playstyles. In GW2 these 5 specs were not distributed to a single class but to several. In total the amount of damage dealer specs is nearly equal.
About choosing a lancer over a warrior: Actually a highly skilled warrior can tank comparably well. With a lancer it is just a lot easier.
Also: If your chart is still correct then answer this: Why would I choose a thief over an elementalist? The thief has 1 playstyle and the elementalist several. Same thing ...
Originally posted by otacu
Originally posted by Inf666
...
Seriously...... did you even play the game?
Because by your questions i guess you didn't play the game at all. You're just trolling.
YES you can have an all-engineer team and being as complete a dungeon. Or even a full guardian team. Or a full elementalist team.
Two elementalist and 3 thief? fine too.
A mesmer can control an endgame boss just fine and a dps guardian can outdamage a control elementalist
Pretty shocking to have this much freedom huh?
That's what a game with no Holy Trinity is like. Sweet freedom. My time as a player is value i don't want to sit in Velika for 1 hour looking for a tank (and then get kicked because i don't have enough gearscore lol).
Yes I played the game though not as much as I would have liked. As I postet before: specialists > generalists. I will only believe what you are saying when I have seen it for myself in the end game content. What you say can simply not work. Except of course if the content is so easy that specs do not matter.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Yes I played the game though not as much as I would have liked. As I postet before: specialists > generalists. I will only believe what you are saying when I have seen it for myself in the end game content. What you say can simply not work. Except of course if the content is so easy that specs do not matter.
why can it simply not work? all classes can be setup for a variety of situations. Dungeons have multiple modes and can be extremly difficult. Think its just ot difficult for some to understand a game with no trinity system.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
If a damage dealing specced guardian does as much dmg as a damage dealing specced elementalist, then I agree. Otherwise I would force the guardin to play tank/control and the elementilst to play damage dealer. They wouldn't have a choice at all.
Why? The stronger the group the easier the content becomes. Specialists are in most cases more effective than generalists. What do you think will happen when in endgame the dungeons become so hard that ineffective spec choices are not used anymore? Yep we are back at the holy trinity: LFM Elem with dmg spec + Guardian with tank spec.
Duh duh duh and you still insist in saying you've played the game BTW we were talking about WEAPONS not TRAITS.
And the freedom of playstyle the weapons give to GW2 classes.
You're going off track since you cannot reply. Fair enough.
Let's talk about traits then.
You can sure full spec your elementalist to do lots of damage. And you can full spec your guardian to do lots of damage. But they will be both glass cannon.
Yes you can do TONS of damage as a guardian. Try doing so in Tera lol.
And you can't force anyone to do what you want. You can do a dungeon with 5 Guardians JUST FINE.
Deal with it.
Bottom line is: even a full "tank spec" (lol) guardian cannot tank a dungeon boss alone. That's why it's called "control". The guardian has to "control" the boss for some time then swtich with another player. An elementalist for example. After the elementalist "tank" (lol) he switch with the ranger. While he is not "tanking" the Guardian has other things to do... and having too much specialized in "control" can really penalise him
That's why generalist > specialst. GW2 is about variety and not fixed roles. I thought you should have noticed by now but i was wrong. You're still into the WOW mentality (and Tera is the same).
Originally posted by Inf666
And I keep telling you that there is more to it than that. Yes a sorc will never become a tank but still has many different specs. If you spec one sorc for mana efficiency and one for burst damage they will play differently. Maybe there is not as much differentiation as in GW2 but there still are far more than playstyles than your 9.
Look at it like this: A sorc in tera has lets say 5 different effective skill specs. Thats 5 different damage dealer playstyles. In GW2 these 5 specs were not distributed to a single class but to several. In total the amount of damage dealer specs is nearly equal.
About choosing a lancer over a warrior: Actually a highly skilled warrior can tank comparably well. With a lancer it is just a lot easier.
Also: If your chart is still correct then answer this: Why would I choose a thief over an elementalist? The thief has 1 playstyle and the elementalist several. Same thing ...
Hello! Weren't we talking about playstyle? Yet now it's about spec.
"Oh awesome! i have minor differences between MY sorcerer and HIS sorcerers." Well done Tera. Well done.
Except that GW2 has not only weapons but a tons of traits too. Weapons + traits (that are much more meaningful than glyphs) + healing/utility/elite skill selections (remember?) = playstyle variety OFF THE CHARTS
And not only playstyle but you can even take on different roles. Yes i know pretty shocking for a Tera player.
You claim the damage dealer specs for a class are nearly equal in the 2 games ... do i even need to reply to this silliness?
Did you notice that 95% of the TERA tanks are lancers and warrior are usually instakicked for high level dungeons? And that they had to give idiot-proof buffs to warrior to make them able to tank properly in the latest patch?
You telling me this is a good class design?
Tera class design is crap let's be honest. 9 playstyles with limited customization.
To answer your question: that chart is quite old and was a first attempt to fit every weapon in a category but i thought it was fine just to show you how much different each class is and how they are not restriced to one role only. Yes, the chart is inaccurate. The Thief can do more than damage. He has control weapons too. Yes "tanky" thiefs here we go!
And you choice the class because you like it and you have to get a good feeling from it. The classes are SO different from each other that everyone can find one of his liking. Maybe i like to be stealthy and i can't do it with a elementalist.
Originally posted by Inf666
Yes I played the game though not as much as I would have liked. As I postet before: specialists > generalists. I will only believe what you are saying when I have seen it for myself in the end game content. What you say can simply not work. Except of course if the content is so easy that specs do not matter.
You played an awful small amount of time if you think there is still a holy trinity in game and if you think that you can specialize in a tank spec and if you think that Tera and GW2 have same amount of freedom and customization.
Class design is so completely superior in GW2 that's not even funny.
Brace yourself for the first "5 thief party" or "5 guardian party" or "5 elementalist party" to complete Arah. Then come back here.
I will leave this here too so you can bask in the glorious amount of variety and customization GW2 has
I can only laugh thinking back at the one class - one weapon Tera design.
I will leave this here too so you can bask in the glorious amount of variety and customization GW2 has
I can only laugh thinking back at the one class - one weapon Tera design.
and not to mention you can further customize each weapon wth a variety of things such as new skills, equipment augments and such which means even a SINGLE weapon combo offers more variety then anything you can do with TERAs glyph system.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
And weapons have combo fields and combo finishers too bringing out even more variety and team work between differen players.
I can believe anyone could suggest to bring Tera's TERRIBLE class design in Gw2.
100% masochism
Why did you bring up terras terrible class design when the thread is clearly about tera's combat...the one strong suit of that game?
The same with whoever brought up teras one weapon design...which again isnt combat mechanics...you could apply the combat mechanics to GW2's weapons.
I think the combat mechanics of tera would make ANY game better.
You can still have teras combat mechanics and the combo fields/finishers...they are not mutually exclusive.
This is starting to get sad...other threads blowing up with anger and hostility over some improvement suggestions and this thread...people cant even suggest something theoretically better for the game...
Yes I played the game though not as much as I would have liked. As I postet before: specialists > generalists. I will only believe what you are saying when I have seen it for myself in the end game content. What you say can simply not work. Except of course if the content is so easy that specs do not matter.
why can it simply not work? all classes can be setup for a variety of situations. Dungeons have multiple modes and can be extremly difficult. Think its just ot difficult for some to understand a game with no trinity system.
First of all: I have not yet been into a GW2 dungeon yet (didn't get that far), so I can only talk about the problem in general terms. If GW2 has a way around the problem, then please enlighten me.
The goal of a dungeon is to create an achievable challenge for a predefined group. The difficulty is always to be seen in relation to that model group. After designing, the dungeon is tested with said group and the difficulty is adjusted further.
The problem I see is: in GW2 I could enter a dungeon with either a team of specialists or of generalists.
A specialist group would assign roles to every party member. Every member is obligated to maximize his efficiency in his given role. In most MMOs a specialized damaged dealer and a specialized tank will generate more outgoing damage and negate more incoming damage than two generalists could. Also certain classes will be better at certain roles (elementalist as damage dealer) and will be prefered. Using other classes would not be considered for the role because of the lost potential (hello trinity model).
A generalists group has another problem: complexity. If you as a player need to concentrate on too many things at once you become inefficient and start to make mistakes. We humans are not very good at multitasking. It seems to me that GW2 is expecting players to play several roles at once. If players are incapable of performing a single role correctly then ask yourself what will happen when you push more tasks onto those players?
As a content designer you now have a problem. A specialist team will be very strong for their level and very focused. A generalists team will be weaker and inefficient. How do you design the dungeon to be a challenge for all? Since the game is for casual players I think they will simply target the casual generalists. They will make combat easier, add in role-specific minigames and then mask it all with story.
The holy trinity role system is reviled by many but it is very good from a designers stand point. It is a lot easier to design content for a certain level range. It is easier to create a series of dungeons with increasing difficulty because the strength of the model group is simple to determine.
I see multiple roles per class as a chaotic system. In lower levels its not as much of a problem but when you get close to the upper levels you will have such a strength differential between groups you wouldn't know how to design your content.
I am very curious to see how this problem was solved in GW2. If they haven't solved it then specialist groups will dominate the high level high difficulty content and everyone will be forced to adapt.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
i very much dislike Tera's "rooted" feel with pretty much every single skill.
i dont mind that a channeled spell is broken if i choose to move before it's completed, but forcing me to stay rooted to the ground because the animation hasn't finished yet drives me nuts. it's almost like getting stunned every i want to use an ability.
if it wasn't for that i would say that Tera was the best mmo out right now.
I don't know how/why this thread is still going. Adding Tera's combat system to GW2 would only drive away people who like the fact that the game is not like Tera, making it LESS popular. Someone mentioned how GW2 will be replaced in a year. So how long do you think it will take Tera to be replaced?
Oh that's right.... August 28th.
Don't get your peanut butter in my chocolate. It's fine the way it is.
And weapons have combo fields and combo finishers too bringing out even more variety and team work between differen players.
I can believe anyone could suggest to bring Tera's TERRIBLE class design in Gw2.
100% masochism
Why did you bring up terras terrible class design when the thread is clearly about tera's combat...the one strong suit of that game?
The same with whoever brought up teras one weapon design...which again isnt combat mechanics...you could apply the combat mechanics to GW2's weapons.
I think the combat mechanics of tera would make ANY game better.
You can still have teras combat mechanics and the combo fields/finishers...they are not mutually exclusive.
This is starting to get sad...other threads blowing up with anger and hostility over some improvement suggestions and this thread...people cant even suggest something theoretically better for the game...
Because the thread is about both comba and class design.
OP wanted TERA combat and TERA class design in GW2.
Also they should have sticked with classes and not let ever class/race go dps/heal/support/tank
Now lets combine the tera online combat system with gw2.
Gw2 WvWvW
Tera online combat system + class defined(more teamplay)
I think we have a winner here..
If you take out holy trinity free, limited skill bar to manage, class combos, multiple weapons, multiple playstyles etc.ect.
What's left?
being rooted in place to act and being animation bound?
that's up to personal preferences : i like the fast free form Gw2 combat much more.
I fail to see the "suggestion" in the OP.
What exactly are the improvements to get from Tera? i'm curious
And i fail to see how you can have class combos in a combat like Tera. Tera's combat is action because of the aiming. Gw2's combat is action because of the space control (walls, area of effects, interdiction zones, spheres, lines etc.). Class combos wouldn't work in Tera's combat without heavy changes.
The goal of a dungeon is to create an achievable challenge for a predefined group. The difficulty is always to be seen in relation to that model group. After designing, the dungeon is tested with said group and the difficulty is adjusted further.
The problem I see is: in GW2 I could enter a dungeon with either a team of specialists or of generalists.
A specialist group would assign roles to every party member. Every member is obligated to maximize his efficiency in his given role. In most MMOs a specialized damaged dealer and a specialized tank will generate more outgoing damage and negate more incoming damage than two generalists could. Also certain classes will be better at certain roles (elementalist as damage dealer) and will be prefered. Using other classes would not be considered for the role because of the lost potential (hello trinity model).
A generalists group has another problem: complexity. If you as a player need to concentrate on too many things at once you become inefficient and start to make mistakes. We humans are not very good at multitasking. It seems to me that GW2 is expecting players to play several roles at once. If players are incapable of performing a single role correctly then ask yourself what will happen when you push more tasks onto those players?
As a content designer you now have a problem. A specialist team will be very strong for their level and very focused. A generalists team will be weaker and inefficient. How do you design the dungeon to be a challenge for all? Since the game is for casual players I think they will simply target the casual generalists. They will make combat easier, add in role-specific minigames and then mask it all with story.
The holy trinity role system is reviled by many but it is very good from a designers stand point. It is a lot easier to design content for a certain level range. It is easier to create a series of dungeons with increasing difficulty because the strength of the model group is simple to determine.
I see multiple roles per class as a chaotic system. In lower levels its not as much of a problem but when you get close to the upper levels you will have such a strength differential between groups you wouldn't know how to design your content.
I am very curious to see how this problem was solved in GW2. If they haven't solved it then specialist groups will dominate the high level high difficulty content and everyone will be forced to adapt.
we could go back and forth all day but only way to really understand is play the dungeons so we can discuss further after release and you can see how the dungeons actually play out.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
we could go back and forth all day but only way to really understand is play the dungeons so we can discuss further after release and you can see how the dungeons actually play out.
It's quite clear he is a Holy Trinity diehard fan that wants a fixed role in combat.
Doing the 3 minigames (tank, heal, dps) is funny for a lot of people.
You take out the 3 minigames and give the players true teamwork and they call it "chaotic". Well duh of course it's more chaoitc than the stiff and old "3 minigames setup".
You do not seem to be capable of generalizing in any way. The words "weapons", "traits" and "specs" are not relevant. They are just words given to certain class skill mechanics. They even mean different things in different games. Take a step back and ask yourself: What is a playstyle and how many playstyles does a game have? The answer is not attained by counting weapons or traits or whatever you want to call the choices you are presented with. Even in GW2 a weapon by itself does not symbolize a playstyle since a weapon can mean different things for different classes.
Your fixation on amount of weapons is odd. A class wth 1 weapon can have more character design choises than a class with 100 weapons. I do not see your point. You have to look at the complete picture.
I suggest we talk no further about this (no point really). Maybe in 2-3 months time.
As BigRock said, this thread is about the combat system and not about the class system. We drifted off somewhere.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
we could go back and forth all day but only way to really understand is play the dungeons so we can discuss further after release and you can see how the dungeons actually play out.
Agreed.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Comments
Sigh.
It's not the "amount".... it's the freedom of playstyle the weapon sets give you. You want to play a support guardian? you can. You want to play a damage dealing Guardian? you can. You want to play a control guardian? you can.
Hello? I already said multiple times. As a warrior in Tera you can have a defensive playstlye and an offensive playstyle. But that's only the warrior. So overall Tera has NINE playstyle.
And the fact that warrior is the only hybrid class in game has been only an headache for the developers and players since tanking as a warrior is a nightmare and basically almost everyone want a lancer tank at high levels.
And rightfully so!
Why would you roll a lancer if a warrior could tank just as well AND switch to dps playstyle whenever he wants. Bad design is bad! And they are going crazy trying to patch the warrior and strike a balance.
But anyway "the far more possibilities" you speak of are the same old NINE playstyle. 8 classes -> 9 playstyles. Yeah the class system in Tera is horrible.
Glyph can't do anything.
Can you make a dps lancer? NO
Can you do a healing sorcerer? NO
Can you do a tank priest? NO
No freedom and no variety.
Seriously...... did you even play the game?
Because by your questions i guess you didn't play the game at all. You're just trolling.
YES you can have an all-engineer team and being as complete a dungeon. Or even a full guardian team. Or a full elementalist team.
Two elementalist and 3 thief? fine too.
A mesmer can control an endgame boss just fine and a dps guardian can outdamage a control elementalist
Pretty shocking to have this much freedom huh?
That's what a game with no Holy Trinity is like. Sweet freedom. My time as a player is value i don't want to sit in Velika for 1 hour looking for a tank (and then get kicked because i don't have enough gearscore lol).
To make it short. NO lol
You're just grasping at straws.
9 playstyle over god knows only how many? lol no
Holy trinity over complete freedom? lol no
No interraction over combo profession? lol no
You may not want to see it or you may not want to understand it, but thats the way it is.
And don't try even try to reply. You basically knows nothing about GW2 combat. You "saw" videos and decided that one class has one playstyle (lol). You even asked if you can do a dungeon with 5 engeneer (lol).
Oh.... here we go with the last desperate line of defense "well it's not the holy graly blah blah it must have some flaws here and there blah blah."
Saying "one class = one playstyle" in GW2 is not "thinking different".... it's lying or just being ignorant.
Asking "you cannot tank as a mesmer!" ... it's just being being ignorant not "thinking different".
Come back when you are not so misinformed and stop calling more informed people "fanatics".
Otherwise
Joe : "Hey guise in Tera i can heal just fine with my lancer!"
Bob: "No you can't"
Joe: "And i can change my glyphs on my sorcerer and tank the next dungeons"
Bob: "No you can't"
Joe: "Really? Tera is not the holy grail! I'm just thinking different and you're a fanatic!"
Best Regards
Bob
If a damage dealing specced guardian does as much dmg as a damage dealing specced elementalist, then I agree. Otherwise I would force the guardin to play tank/control and the elementilst to play damage dealer. They wouldn't have a choice at all.
Why? The stronger the group the easier the content becomes. Specialists are in most cases more effective than generalists. What do you think will happen when in endgame the dungeons become so hard that ineffective spec choices are not used anymore? Yep we are back at the holy trinity: LFM Elem with dmg spec + Guardian with tank spec.
And I keep telling you that there is more to it than that. Yes a sorc will never become a tank but still has many different specs. If you spec one sorc for mana efficiency and one for burst damage they will play differently. Maybe there is not as much differentiation as in GW2 but there still are far more than playstyles than your 9.
Look at it like this: A sorc in tera has lets say 5 different effective skill specs. Thats 5 different damage dealer playstyles. In GW2 these 5 specs were not distributed to a single class but to several. In total the amount of damage dealer specs is nearly equal.
About choosing a lancer over a warrior: Actually a highly skilled warrior can tank comparably well. With a lancer it is just a lot easier.
Also: If your chart is still correct then answer this: Why would I choose a thief over an elementalist? The thief has 1 playstyle and the elementalist several. Same thing ...
Yes I played the game though not as much as I would have liked. As I postet before: specialists > generalists. I will only believe what you are saying when I have seen it for myself in the end game content. What you say can simply not work. Except of course if the content is so easy that specs do not matter.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
why can it simply not work? all classes can be setup for a variety of situations. Dungeons have multiple modes and can be extremly difficult. Think its just ot difficult for some to understand a game with no trinity system.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Duh duh duh and you still insist in saying you've played the game BTW we were talking about WEAPONS not TRAITS.
And the freedom of playstyle the weapons give to GW2 classes.
You're going off track since you cannot reply. Fair enough.
Let's talk about traits then.
You can sure full spec your elementalist to do lots of damage. And you can full spec your guardian to do lots of damage. But they will be both glass cannon.
Yes you can do TONS of damage as a guardian. Try doing so in Tera lol.
And you can't force anyone to do what you want. You can do a dungeon with 5 Guardians JUST FINE.
Deal with it.
Bottom line is: even a full "tank spec" (lol) guardian cannot tank a dungeon boss alone. That's why it's called "control". The guardian has to "control" the boss for some time then swtich with another player. An elementalist for example. After the elementalist "tank" (lol) he switch with the ranger. While he is not "tanking" the Guardian has other things to do... and having too much specialized in "control" can really penalise him
That's why generalist > specialst. GW2 is about variety and not fixed roles. I thought you should have noticed by now but i was wrong. You're still into the WOW mentality (and Tera is the same).
Hello! Weren't we talking about playstyle? Yet now it's about spec.
"Oh awesome! i have minor differences between MY sorcerer and HIS sorcerers." Well done Tera. Well done.
Except that GW2 has not only weapons but a tons of traits too. Weapons + traits (that are much more meaningful than glyphs) + healing/utility/elite skill selections (remember?) = playstyle variety OFF THE CHARTS
And not only playstyle but you can even take on different roles. Yes i know pretty shocking for a Tera player.
You claim the damage dealer specs for a class are nearly equal in the 2 games ... do i even need to reply to this silliness?
Did you notice that 95% of the TERA tanks are lancers and warrior are usually instakicked for high level dungeons? And that they had to give idiot-proof buffs to warrior to make them able to tank properly in the latest patch?
You telling me this is a good class design?
Tera class design is crap let's be honest. 9 playstyles with limited customization.
To answer your question: that chart is quite old and was a first attempt to fit every weapon in a category but i thought it was fine just to show you how much different each class is and how they are not restriced to one role only. Yes, the chart is inaccurate. The Thief can do more than damage. He has control weapons too. Yes "tanky" thiefs here we go!
And you choice the class because you like it and you have to get a good feeling from it. The classes are SO different from each other that everyone can find one of his liking. Maybe i like to be stealthy and i can't do it with a elementalist.
You played an awful small amount of time if you think there is still a holy trinity in game and if you think that you can specialize in a tank spec and if you think that Tera and GW2 have same amount of freedom and customization.
Class design is so completely superior in GW2 that's not even funny.
Brace yourself for the first "5 thief party" or "5 guardian party" or "5 elementalist party" to complete Arah. Then come back here.
I will leave this here too so you can bask in the glorious amount of variety and customization GW2 has
I can only laugh thinking back at the one class - one weapon Tera design.
and not to mention you can further customize each weapon wth a variety of things such as new skills, equipment augments and such which means even a SINGLE weapon combo offers more variety then anything you can do with TERAs glyph system.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
And weapons have combo fields and combo finishers too bringing out even more variety and team work between differen players.
I can believe anyone could suggest to bring Tera's TERRIBLE class design in Gw2.
100% masochism
Why did you bring up terras terrible class design when the thread is clearly about tera's combat...the one strong suit of that game?
The same with whoever brought up teras one weapon design...which again isnt combat mechanics...you could apply the combat mechanics to GW2's weapons.
I think the combat mechanics of tera would make ANY game better.
You can still have teras combat mechanics and the combo fields/finishers...they are not mutually exclusive.
This is starting to get sad...other threads blowing up with anger and hostility over some improvement suggestions and this thread...people cant even suggest something theoretically better for the game...
First of all: I have not yet been into a GW2 dungeon yet (didn't get that far), so I can only talk about the problem in general terms. If GW2 has a way around the problem, then please enlighten me.
The goal of a dungeon is to create an achievable challenge for a predefined group. The difficulty is always to be seen in relation to that model group. After designing, the dungeon is tested with said group and the difficulty is adjusted further.
The problem I see is: in GW2 I could enter a dungeon with either a team of specialists or of generalists.
A specialist group would assign roles to every party member. Every member is obligated to maximize his efficiency in his given role. In most MMOs a specialized damaged dealer and a specialized tank will generate more outgoing damage and negate more incoming damage than two generalists could. Also certain classes will be better at certain roles (elementalist as damage dealer) and will be prefered. Using other classes would not be considered for the role because of the lost potential (hello trinity model).
A generalists group has another problem: complexity. If you as a player need to concentrate on too many things at once you become inefficient and start to make mistakes. We humans are not very good at multitasking. It seems to me that GW2 is expecting players to play several roles at once. If players are incapable of performing a single role correctly then ask yourself what will happen when you push more tasks onto those players?
As a content designer you now have a problem. A specialist team will be very strong for their level and very focused. A generalists team will be weaker and inefficient. How do you design the dungeon to be a challenge for all? Since the game is for casual players I think they will simply target the casual generalists. They will make combat easier, add in role-specific minigames and then mask it all with story.
The holy trinity role system is reviled by many but it is very good from a designers stand point. It is a lot easier to design content for a certain level range. It is easier to create a series of dungeons with increasing difficulty because the strength of the model group is simple to determine.
I see multiple roles per class as a chaotic system. In lower levels its not as much of a problem but when you get close to the upper levels you will have such a strength differential between groups you wouldn't know how to design your content.
I am very curious to see how this problem was solved in GW2. If they haven't solved it then specialist groups will dominate the high level high difficulty content and everyone will be forced to adapt.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
i very much dislike Tera's "rooted" feel with pretty much every single skill.
i dont mind that a channeled spell is broken if i choose to move before it's completed, but forcing me to stay rooted to the ground because the animation hasn't finished yet drives me nuts. it's almost like getting stunned every i want to use an ability.
if it wasn't for that i would say that Tera was the best mmo out right now.
I don't know how/why this thread is still going. Adding Tera's combat system to GW2 would only drive away people who like the fact that the game is not like Tera, making it LESS popular. Someone mentioned how GW2 will be replaced in a year. So how long do you think it will take Tera to be replaced?
Oh that's right.... August 28th.
Don't get your peanut butter in my chocolate. It's fine the way it is.
Because the thread is about both comba and class design.
OP wanted TERA combat and TERA class design in GW2.
Let me remind you the #1 post
If you take out holy trinity free, limited skill bar to manage, class combos, multiple weapons, multiple playstyles etc.ect.
What's left?
being rooted in place to act and being animation bound?
that's up to personal preferences : i like the fast free form Gw2 combat much more.
I fail to see the "suggestion" in the OP.
What exactly are the improvements to get from Tera? i'm curious
And i fail to see how you can have class combos in a combat like Tera. Tera's combat is action because of the aiming. Gw2's combat is action because of the space control (walls, area of effects, interdiction zones, spheres, lines etc.). Class combos wouldn't work in Tera's combat without heavy changes.
we could go back and forth all day but only way to really understand is play the dungeons so we can discuss further after release and you can see how the dungeons actually play out.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Tera-bul "Put on some pants"
It's quite clear he is a Holy Trinity diehard fan that wants a fixed role in combat.
Doing the 3 minigames (tank, heal, dps) is funny for a lot of people.
You take out the 3 minigames and give the players true teamwork and they call it "chaotic". Well duh of course it's more chaoitc than the stiff and old "3 minigames setup".
You do not seem to be capable of generalizing in any way. The words "weapons", "traits" and "specs" are not relevant. They are just words given to certain class skill mechanics. They even mean different things in different games. Take a step back and ask yourself: What is a playstyle and how many playstyles does a game have? The answer is not attained by counting weapons or traits or whatever you want to call the choices you are presented with. Even in GW2 a weapon by itself does not symbolize a playstyle since a weapon can mean different things for different classes.
Your fixation on amount of weapons is odd. A class wth 1 weapon can have more character design choises than a class with 100 weapons. I do not see your point. You have to look at the complete picture.
I suggest we talk no further about this (no point really). Maybe in 2-3 months time.
As BigRock said, this thread is about the combat system and not about the class system. We drifted off somewhere.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Agreed.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.