Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:
It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.
It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).
In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.
It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.
You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.
No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.
And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.
No, no, and a little more no.
Gear progression makes the good players who are already better than the not-so-good players even better - so things are more imbalanced.
It makes the great players who are already better than the good players amazing - so things are more imbalanced.
And nine times out of 10 the really good/great players play more and more often than the not-so-good players, and as such they grind through the gear upgrades even faster - so things are even MORE imbalanced.
This school of thought has dozens of games.
Keep this far away from GW2 please. Some of us have VERY fond memories of games like UO where the powercap was very shallow and flat and we could just GAME and enjoy GAMING without chasing after carrots.
Let's see if GW2 can hold on to it's initial numbers for more than 3 months before we lable it as genre changing shall we? There's no doubt the game will launch with flying colors, but as many people said, there is some question as to how long it will be sustainable given the game's design.
I doubt many games are running scared, Most are going to patiently wait for the "storm" to subside. This game looks like it will eventually settle into many people's backup or secondary game. I mean, for cryin out loud, this is 2012, we have not seen one single game shut down as a direct result of some new MMO's release and players leaving it for another. Even WoW didn't kill any other games directly by that method. The only thing that comes close was SWG/SWTOR but that was more over politics of the IP.
This. There is too much hype surrounding GW2 for my taste. I played in the open beta weekends and I was not impressed. I am not going to get sucked into another SW:TOR. That game had a lot of hype, too.
I agree with you that the rest of the industry is going to patiently watch and wait. See what works, see what doesn't, and perhaps incorporate some of those ideas into their upcoming titles or expansions.
SWTOR...sub. GW2...no sub. See the difference? GW2, if nothing else, is the monthly sub killer.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
If progression is so great, why did only 5-10% of the WoW player base participate in raids prior to LFR?
If progression is so desireable, why did only 1.5% of the player base complete firelands on "normal" in WoW?
If progression is so great, why is there a 300+ page thread consisting mostly of WoW players complaining that LFR trivializes gear and progression because now more people have "the good stuff"?
I mean, isn't LFR the ultimate expression of gear progression? If so, why are so many people against it?
And finally, why would people complain about the progressive content nerfs? Don't they reduce the barriers to raiding content, allowing more people to participate in progression?
In the end, isn't the gear treadmill about getting people to keep paying a subscription?
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Originally posted by Iselin Originally posted by GeezerGamerOriginally posted by IselinOriginally posted by AnubisanOriginally posted by Skarecrow7Originally posted by Anubisan
Change is scary isn't it? But also exciting. We'll see how it turns out but one thing's for sure, GW2 is turning the MMO genre upside down and every other company is running scared...I love it. No subs for a game with content = than sub-based AAA MMOs... The best PvP model since DAoC... downscaling players instead of content for mixed-level grouping... casual virtual grouping for events... and yes, no gear progression. Pretty compelling package. Let's see if GW2 can hold on to it's initial numbers for more than 3 months before we lable it as genre changing shall we? There's no doubt the game will launch with flying colors, but as many people said, there is some question as to how long it will be sustainable given the game's design. I doubt many games are running scared, Most are going to patiently wait for the "storm" to subside. This game looks like it will eventually settle into many people's backup or secondary game. I mean, for cryin out loud, this is 2012, we have not seen one single game shut down as a direct result of some new MMO's release and players leaving it for another. Even WoW didn't kill any other games directly by that method. The only thing that comes close was SWG/SWTOR but that was more over politics of the IP.I don't have to wait to know that GW2 has brought the discussion about why anyone pays a monthly sub to play an MMO front and center. The old answer that it's because the F2P game has less content or is unpolished doesn't apply here. That, all by itself is cause for all sub-based MMOs to worry about their bottom line.
And btw, running scared doesn't imply "WOW killer." It just means that every other sub-based MMO is obviously paying attention to GW2, releasing patches in and around its release date and some are even announcing changes to bring the games in line with what they perceive to be GW2's strengths: Rift's 3 sided PVP and minimizing gear effects in PVP annoucements come to mind.
Yes, I would agree that companies are watching the model, but it's not been proven to be a long term success. And that's what companies will want to see. Not every game that went F2P turned it into a success. If anything, It might make it worse. Because there is still the potential for companies to see the sub model as old, and to want to adopt the B2P model, but of those companies, how many of them will be as reserved with their cash shops as ANET has shown to be thus far?
In that case, what then? Will we see more standard F2P/P2W models but now with a box fee.
I think your comments will be true for some, but not everyone who plays GW2. The other side is that you will have folks play at great length because there is no gear grind. Sure you can go out and collect sets of items to change how you look, but you aren't forced in and out of new sets of gear because of statistical upgrades.
I would argue that Guild Wars 2 isn't for the gear grinding, raid centric minded people, but rather for achievers and explorers. It's also a game for PvP minded folks, who want to PvP and not really have to worry about falling far behind in some gearing race. Look at what happened to DAoC after they added their version of a gear grind in ToA (population dropped after ToA big time).
Trials of Atlantis was the probably the worst expansion any mmo ever had
TOA made DAOC into a raid game and made many DAOC players leave in disgust
TOA was a scratch on your nutsack if you knew what you were doing, we got in TOA and out of TOA rather fast, completely geared up, with leveled up artifacts. Worst exspansion? I don't think so, most destructive to a game, absolutely...
fair enough - i meant worst expansion to a games playerbase
Instead of practicing the piano to become a great musician, you think it would be better to grind money to purchase an awesome keyboard that can play any song you can imagine at the touch of a key.
Both take time. However, with the former you are actually getting BETTER at playing the piano. The latter simply offers a crutch that allows you to sound like you have gotten better.
Back to gaming: Is it more satisfying for you to beat someone because you are better than them, or because you had better gear on? If it is the former, then GW, GW2, and soon to be RIFT with PvP normalization is right for you. But, if you want to win because of a piece of gear, there are PLENTY of games out that for you to play.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
It baffles me that anyone who's ever seen the antics of a pug raid can think any positive thoughts about a Blizzard's version of gear design.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Yes, I would agree that companies are watching the model, but it's not been proven to be a long term success. And that's what companies will want to see. Not every game that went F2P turned it into a success. If anything, It might make it worse. Because there is still the potential for companies to see the sub model as old, and to want to adopt the B2P model, but of those companies, how many of them will be as reserved with their cash shops as ANET has shown to be thus far?
In that case, what then? Will we see more standard F2P/P2W models but now with a box fee.
Our discussion is getting a bit far from gear progression but this is intersting. So...
I have both an iPad and a Nexus 7 (Gadget freak. yes) and practically all games available for either tablet are either free + cash shop or a small purchase fee + cash shop. That is already the standard in tablet gaming. The purchase fee/no fee seems to be a bit random still but generally its an indicator of how crippled the game is in its initial form.
MMOs are heading in that direction very quickly. They were already going there before GW2 but GW2's polish, quantity of content and, most importantly in my opinion, it's attempt to create real fun end-game persistance with the DAoC-like WvW, is the final nail in the MMO sub-based coffin.
I was reading a thread earlier today in the TSW forum where some people were trying to evaluate the upcoming monthly content patch on the basis of whether they're getting their sub-fee's worth. Monthly content updates is quickly becoming the only justification for monthly subs.
Go back in time just a couple of years. Monthly content injections were rare. The norm was bug-fixing patches and new content with a paid expansion every year or two.
I think we're just a short step away from more frequent paid expansions and no monthly fee. And the games that don't adapt will start to look like money-grubbing dinosaurs...maybe as early as this coming fall.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by Purgatus You mean we as gamers are going to have to play the game for fun, and not progression! (Shudder)
From posts I read all over the internet, there are a lot of people who don't understand what having fun in a game means.... they prefer their "free time" to be spent working (again)
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I think your comments will be true for some, but not everyone who plays GW2. The other side is that you will have folks play at great length because there is no gear grind. Sure you can go out and collect sets of items to change how you look, but you aren't forced in and out of new sets of gear because of statistical upgrades.
I would argue that Guild Wars 2 isn't for the gear grinding, raid centric minded people, but rather for achievers and explorers. It's also a game for PvP minded folks, who want to PvP and not really have to worry about falling far behind in some gearing race. Look at what happened to DAoC after they added their version of a gear grind in ToA (population dropped after ToA big time).
Trials of Atlantis was the probably the worst expansion any mmo ever had
TOA made DAOC into a raid game and made many DAOC players leave in disgust
TOA was a scratch on your nutsack if you knew what you were doing, we got in TOA and out of TOA rather fast, completely geared up, with leveled up artifacts. Worst exspansion? I don't think so, most destructive to a game, absolutely... but people were looking for reasons to move on to a new game, they did.. and dissolved into the mediocricy MMOs that followed.
I actually wasn't looking for a new game when ToA came out. I just hated that they placed so much emphasis on PvE and Gear in ToA. Especially in a game where the endgame was really about PvP.
I agree it wasn't the worst expansion ever, because it was actually well made. I also agree it was the most destructive to a game though, really the only thing worse was probably NGE for SWG.
Originally posted by GeezerGamerYes, I would agree that companies are watching the model, but it's not been proven to be a long term success. And that's what companies will want to see. Not every game that went F2P turned it into a success. If anything, It might make it worse. Because there is still the potential for companies to see the sub model as old, and to want to adopt the B2P model, but of those companies, how many of them will be as reserved with their cash shops as ANET has shown to be thus far?In that case, what then? Will we see more standard F2P/P2W models but now with a box fee.
Our discussion is getting a bit far from gear progression but this is intersting. So...
I have both an iPad and a Nexus 7 (Gadget freak. yes) and practically all games available for either tablet are either free + cash shop or a small purchase fee + cash shop. That is already the standard in tablet gaming. The purchase fee/no fee seems to be a bit random still but generally its an indicator of how crippled the game is in its initial form.
MMOs are heading in that direction very quickly. They were already going there before GW2 but GW2's polish, quantity of content and, most importantly in my opinion, it's attempt to create real fun end-game persistance with the DAoC-like WvW, is the final nail in the MMO sub-based coffin.
I was reading a thread earlier today in the TSW forum where some people were trying to evaluate the upcoming monthly content patch on the basis of whether they're getting their sub-fee's worth. Monthly content updates is quickly becoming the only justification for monthly subs.
Go back in time just a couple of years. Monthly content injections were rare. The norm was bug-fixing patches and new content with a paid expansion every year or two.
I think we're just a short step away from more frequent paid expansions and no monthly fee. And the games that don't adapt will start to look like money-grubbing dinosaurs...maybe as early as this coming fall.
All I'm saying is that the model might work for GW2, it won't work for everyone trying to imitate it. We've all seen the disasters of money grab game clones. And that also applies to the topic on gear progresison as well.
For gear progresison, I don't believe the concept is wrong, The implementation has been wrong.
Go back in time just a couple of years. Monthly content injections were rare. The norm was bug-fixing patches and new content with a paid expansion every year or two.
Sure but lets back up a bit further first.
In the beginning a lot of the sub money whent straight into bandwith and forum costs.
Then around the millenium the costs for running servers and a forum whent down significaclty.
So the pitch changed to your sub fee being responsible for ongoing development. Because remember an MMO was a virtual world where you could live your virtual life in a never ending game.
But over the years MMO players started to feel that the return value on a sub was minimal at best. Thats why a lot of the recent MMO releases harped so much on the promise of monthly content updates. In most cases this never came to be.
At this point in the industry there is v ery little to justify a subscription fee and the players are realising this.
Thats why so many new MMO's fail to reach critical mass because the playerbase sees that their subscription money just isn't going to be spend on delivering actuall content. But rather on fixing bugs and introducing features they perceive as something that should come standard in a decent mmo launch.
From posts I read all over the internet, there are a lot of people who don't understand what having fun in a game means.... they prefer their "free time" to be spent working (again)
So you sometimes differ with other people over what constitutes 'fun', exactly?
No way! Welcome to mmorpg.com. Essentially, that's what (almost) every one of our discussions boils down to.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by snapfusionGear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.*snip*
Stopped right there. No it doesn't. It makes no-lifers OP compared to casuals. End of story.
I don't know the guy, but If you have to give up any semblance of a real life in order to get the "phat lootz" and be "1337" until the next gear grind comes around the corner then that's a bit of a problem for me.
That's all this thread is about. Hardcore players scared of not being 1337 enough in GW2 and thus just being pwnd like everyone else in both WvW and PvP.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by seridanFrom posts I read all over the internet, there are a lot of people who don't understand what having fun in a game means.... they prefer their "free time" to be spent working (again)
So you sometimes differ with other people over what constitutes 'fun', exactly?
No way! Welcome to mmorpg.com. Essentially, that's what (almost) every one of our discussions boils down to.
Up until the GW2 game design, most people wouldn't equate MMOS as "fun" or if they said they played because it was "fun" but you asked them to describe it, you'd probably get their definition of "fun" to be more about being goal driven than actual "fun"
I had traditionally played my MMOs to achieve goals. THAT was the fun, not the game play itself. There is the means and the means to an end.
Before it was the end that was fun. Now we are trying to shift to the means being fun.
Originally posted by JoeyMMO Originally posted by GeezerGamerOriginally posted by JoeyMMOOriginally posted by snapfusionGear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.*snip*
Stopped right there. No it doesn't. It makes no-lifers OP compared to casuals. End of story. Like this guy?I don't know the guy, but If you have to give up any semblance of a real life in order to get the "phat lootz" and be "1337" until the next gear grind comes around the corner then that's a bit of a problem for me.
That's all this thread is about. Hardcore players scared of not being 1337 enough in GW2 and thus just being pwnd like everyone else in both WvW and PvP.
I think GW2 will have it's own brand of hardcore. And they will figure out ways to be that way. But It's obviously not going to come by way of traditional means.
Originally posted by snapfusionGear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.*snip*
Stopped right there. No it doesn't. It makes no-lifers OP compared to casuals. End of story.
Gear chasing is just a band aid for poor game design. They can't make the game fun enough to play for the fun of playing it so they use gambling like gear acquisition models to get players hooked instead.
I can once again edit posts. There is gear progression. There is no gear treadmill. MEaning the top end gear does not change every major content patch or whatever schedule other games have.
Exotic Gear is the max level gear in terms of stats (equal to legendaries)
PvE gear is designed by breaking up the stats of the PvP 798/569/569 amulet and putting it back on gear
Exotic gear at level 80 has 13% better stats than a Rare 80 item
All level 80 exotic gear will have the same "total attribute" points but different gear will have different attribute allocations e.g one exotic glove is 34/24/24 in power/precision/vitality while another is 34/24/24 in toughness/vitality/healing
The four confirmed ways of obtaining exotics are: dungeon tokens, WvW, crafting and the mystic forge. There may be other ways.
There are at least 8 crafted exotic sets that require globs of ectoplasm.
Exotic gear can take a long time to get (44+ dungeon runs or 75+ WvW hours) and this is presumably to offer more desirable stats and skins compared to the crafted sets.
Thank you thank you for posting this.
Whoa the guy above me went coco had to add to my list lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Originally posted by Anubisan I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.
No miscalculation here.
They already have their money.
This game isn't about longevity, its about cash grab.
Here's the average scenario; A guy buy GW2, then pay to unlock a bunch of stuff to be able to enjoy the game to its fullest, witout all the built in hassels, play a couple months and move on to the next big thing.
Yeah, you can come back anytime, but apart from the pvper, their wont be many doing that when they are busy playing that other game that just came out.
Its no different than all the recent MMOs. You pay the box, you spend money from the get go or face the inconvinience ( equivalent to 1-3 months subs + depending on your self control... Anet made the bet that the masses can't control their spending ), play for a couple months and move on.
Bottom line, a lot of people will actually spend more than they would have on most recently released P2P MMO for the same ammount of time.
Out of curiousity what is absolutely needed from the cs? I've looked in the cs and there is nothing I need to buy to play the game in full. Will i want extra chr slot's at some point sure, but that's at a later date.
Comments
No, no, and a little more no.
Gear progression makes the good players who are already better than the not-so-good players even better - so things are more imbalanced.
It makes the great players who are already better than the good players amazing - so things are more imbalanced.
And nine times out of 10 the really good/great players play more and more often than the not-so-good players, and as such they grind through the gear upgrades even faster - so things are even MORE imbalanced.
This school of thought has dozens of games.
Keep this far away from GW2 please. Some of us have VERY fond memories of games like UO where the powercap was very shallow and flat and we could just GAME and enjoy GAMING without chasing after carrots.
SWTOR...sub. GW2...no sub. See the difference? GW2, if nothing else, is the monthly sub killer.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
gear progression for PVE makes sense.
gear progression for PVP is the worst thing about MMO PVP. PVP should be about skill and not gear.
If progression is so great, why did only 5-10% of the WoW player base participate in raids prior to LFR?
If progression is so desireable, why did only 1.5% of the player base complete firelands on "normal" in WoW?
If progression is so great, why is there a 300+ page thread consisting mostly of WoW players complaining that LFR trivializes gear and progression because now more people have "the good stuff"?
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4879017939?page=1
I mean, isn't LFR the ultimate expression of gear progression? If so, why are so many people against it?
And finally, why would people complain about the progressive content nerfs? Don't they reduce the barriers to raiding content, allowing more people to participate in progression?
In the end, isn't the gear treadmill about getting people to keep paying a subscription?
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Change is scary isn't it? But also exciting. We'll see how it turns out but one thing's for sure, GW2 is turning the MMO genre upside down and every other company is running scared...I love it. No subs for a game with content = than sub-based AAA MMOs... The best PvP model since DAoC... downscaling players instead of content for mixed-level grouping... casual virtual grouping for events... and yes, no gear progression. Pretty compelling package.
Let's see if GW2 can hold on to it's initial numbers for more than 3 months before we lable it as genre changing shall we? There's no doubt the game will launch with flying colors, but as many people said, there is some question as to how long it will be sustainable given the game's design. I doubt many games are running scared, Most are going to patiently wait for the "storm" to subside. This game looks like it will eventually settle into many people's backup or secondary game. I mean, for cryin out loud, this is 2012, we have not seen one single game shut down as a direct result of some new MMO's release and players leaving it for another. Even WoW didn't kill any other games directly by that method. The only thing that comes close was SWG/SWTOR but that was more over politics of the IP.
I don't have to wait to know that GW2 has brought the discussion about why anyone pays a monthly sub to play an MMO front and center. The old answer that it's because the F2P game has less content or is unpolished doesn't apply here. That, all by itself is cause for all sub-based MMOs to worry about their bottom line.
And btw, running scared doesn't imply "WOW killer." It just means that every other sub-based MMO is obviously paying attention to GW2, releasing patches in and around its release date and some are even announcing changes to bring the games in line with what they perceive to be GW2's strengths: Rift's 3 sided PVP and minimizing gear effects in PVP annoucements come to mind.
Yes, I would agree that companies are watching the model, but it's not been proven to be a long term success. And that's what companies will want to see. Not every game that went F2P turned it into a success. If anything, It might make it worse. Because there is still the potential for companies to see the sub model as old, and to want to adopt the B2P model, but of those companies, how many of them will be as reserved with their cash shops as ANET has shown to be thus far?
In that case, what then? Will we see more standard F2P/P2W models but now with a box fee.
Trials of Atlantis was the probably the worst expansion any mmo ever had
TOA made DAOC into a raid game and made many DAOC players leave in disgust
EQ2 fan sites
fair enough - i meant worst expansion to a games playerbase
EQ2 fan sites
IMO, here is what I am reading from the OP:
Instead of practicing the piano to become a great musician, you think it would be better to grind money to purchase an awesome keyboard that can play any song you can imagine at the touch of a key.
Both take time. However, with the former you are actually getting BETTER at playing the piano. The latter simply offers a crutch that allows you to sound like you have gotten better.
Back to gaming: Is it more satisfying for you to beat someone because you are better than them, or because you had better gear on? If it is the former, then GW, GW2, and soon to be RIFT with PvP normalization is right for you. But, if you want to win because of a piece of gear, there are PLENTY of games out that for you to play.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
It baffles me that anyone who's ever seen the antics of a pug raid can think any positive thoughts about a Blizzard's version of gear design.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Our discussion is getting a bit far from gear progression but this is intersting. So...
I have both an iPad and a Nexus 7 (Gadget freak. yes) and practically all games available for either tablet are either free + cash shop or a small purchase fee + cash shop. That is already the standard in tablet gaming. The purchase fee/no fee seems to be a bit random still but generally its an indicator of how crippled the game is in its initial form.
MMOs are heading in that direction very quickly. They were already going there before GW2 but GW2's polish, quantity of content and, most importantly in my opinion, it's attempt to create real fun end-game persistance with the DAoC-like WvW, is the final nail in the MMO sub-based coffin.
I was reading a thread earlier today in the TSW forum where some people were trying to evaluate the upcoming monthly content patch on the basis of whether they're getting their sub-fee's worth. Monthly content updates is quickly becoming the only justification for monthly subs.
Go back in time just a couple of years. Monthly content injections were rare. The norm was bug-fixing patches and new content with a paid expansion every year or two.
I think we're just a short step away from more frequent paid expansions and no monthly fee. And the games that don't adapt will start to look like money-grubbing dinosaurs...maybe as early as this coming fall.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
From posts I read all over the internet, there are a lot of people who don't understand what having fun in a game means.... they prefer their "free time" to be spent working (again)
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I actually wasn't looking for a new game when ToA came out. I just hated that they placed so much emphasis on PvE and Gear in ToA. Especially in a game where the endgame was really about PvP.
I agree it wasn't the worst expansion ever, because it was actually well made. I also agree it was the most destructive to a game though, really the only thing worse was probably NGE for SWG.
All I'm saying is that the model might work for GW2, it won't work for everyone trying to imitate it. We've all seen the disasters of money grab game clones. And that also applies to the topic on gear progresison as well.
For gear progresison, I don't believe the concept is wrong, The implementation has been wrong.
Sure but lets back up a bit further first.
In the beginning a lot of the sub money whent straight into bandwith and forum costs.
Then around the millenium the costs for running servers and a forum whent down significaclty.
So the pitch changed to your sub fee being responsible for ongoing development. Because remember an MMO was a virtual world where you could live your virtual life in a never ending game.
But over the years MMO players started to feel that the return value on a sub was minimal at best. Thats why a lot of the recent MMO releases harped so much on the promise of monthly content updates. In most cases this never came to be.
At this point in the industry there is v ery little to justify a subscription fee and the players are realising this.
Thats why so many new MMO's fail to reach critical mass because the playerbase sees that their subscription money just isn't going to be spend on delivering actuall content. But rather on fixing bugs and introducing features they perceive as something that should come standard in a decent mmo launch.
So you sometimes differ with other people over what constitutes 'fun', exactly?
No way! Welcome to mmorpg.com. Essentially, that's what (almost) every one of our discussions boils down to.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't know the guy, but If you have to give up any semblance of a real life in order to get the "phat lootz" and be "1337" until the next gear grind comes around the corner then that's a bit of a problem for me.
That's all this thread is about. Hardcore players scared of not being 1337 enough in GW2 and thus just being pwnd like everyone else in both WvW and PvP.
No way! Welcome to mmorpg.com. Essentially, that's what (almost) every one of our discussions boils down to.
Up until the GW2 game design, most people wouldn't equate MMOS as "fun" or if they said they played because it was "fun" but you asked them to describe it, you'd probably get their definition of "fun" to be more about being goal driven than actual "fun"
I had traditionally played my MMOs to achieve goals. THAT was the fun, not the game play itself. There is the means and the means to an end.
Before it was the end that was fun. Now we are trying to shift to the means being fun.
Why is this thread in the GW2 forum?
It has nothing to do with Gw2, or its bait.
Like this guy?
I don't know the guy, but If you have to give up any semblance of a real life in order to get the "phat lootz" and be "1337" until the next gear grind comes around the corner then that's a bit of a problem for me.
That's all this thread is about. Hardcore players scared of not being 1337 enough in GW2 and thus just being pwnd like everyone else in both WvW and PvP.
I think GW2 will have it's own brand of hardcore. And they will figure out ways to be that way. But It's obviously not going to come by way of traditional means.
LOL I needed that
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Thank you thank you for posting this.
Whoa the guy above me went coco had to add to my list lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Out of curiousity what is absolutely needed from the cs? I've looked in the cs and there is nothing I need to buy to play the game in full. Will i want extra chr slot's at some point sure, but that's at a later date.