Originally posted by Purgatus You mean we as gamers are going to have to play the game for fun, and not progression! (Shudder)
Correct for awhile, but do you think the fun is endless? Riding a roller coaster is fun the first 10 times but how many times would you ride the roller coaster if everytime you got off it you could do something you like a little better?
It's more fun than doing dailies and prep all week so you can run the same raid every Thursday! Month after month after month of doing the same thing over-and-over-and-over-and-over so you can get that one piece of gear...
Been there. Done that. Quit the game because of that. Was having fun until I let them talk me into raiding. Once I got caught in the cycle, I hated the game within months.
Originally posted by Anubisan I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.
No miscalculation here.
They already have their money.
This game isn't about longevity, its about cash grab.
Here's the average scenario; A guy buy GW2, then pay to unlock a bunch of stuff to be able to enjoy the game to its fullest, witout all the built in hassels, play a couple months and move on to the next big thing.
Hmm... that's pretty much a steaming load of crap. There's nothing in the cash shop that you need to buy to unlock any portion of the game whatsoever. Where are you getting your misinformation from?
So what I get from all the fanbois is that the CS is useless, wont be used and that anet will be just fine with the box sale alone.
So anet took time and ressource to make a CS that wont be used? Delusional much?
It's for non-essential items. Mini-pets, dye packs, extra character and bag slots, costumes, those kind of things. You want to be a pirate? You can buy a pirate costume that not only makes you look like a pirate, but you get a whole new set of skills on your skillbar to go along with the effect. There are things like sunglasses, cook outfits, etc. Even some minor buffs that you can get in game and only work in PvE.
Originally posted by Pandamin Its true, gear progression for an RPG is a good thing. But at some point it has to stop. You do have to keep in mind that the raid gear type of progression system was invented more as a way to hold subscription numbers. Its pezz dispenser psychology.
Raid's were absolutely NOT invented as a form of holding subs. Only people who started with WOW think that because they never played REAL mmo's like UO and EQ1.
Getting from level 50 to 60 in EQ1 for example took about 250-350 hours of solid XPing in a competent and efficient group, and thats not including incedental time such as waiting on a list for a spot in the group, or your group waiting for a spot in the dungeon to open up (there was no instancing back then, and XPing was not done by questing. The best XP was to run dungeons in a group as you got XP bonuses from mobs for being in a group and for being in a dungeon.
Raids were invented as a way for more than 6 people to work together towards a common goal because its not only satisfying, but killing big ass dragons and titans and stuff like that is FUN. And frankly taking down a dragon the size of a building with a party of 5 just smacks of absurdity (unless you are in our current generation where every game ensures that you're captain mcbadass with his +6 sword of ass whooping from level 1).
The time sink mechanics in real mmo's were the leveling processes, alongside longer travel times (there werent ports until much later, and even then they had maybe half a dozen in the entire world). They also had other timesinks that were actually fun, like fishing, swimming skill. EQ as an example's faction system was fantastic. I spent probably 200 hours on my paladin getting my rep up to the point where Dark Elf NPC's weren't KOS and just simply dubious. Etc.
Anyways, ill shutup now as i know these words will fall on deaf ears anyways, but damn if it doesnt make me feel at least a little better to get it out there.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by Pandamin Its true, gear progression for an RPG is a good thing. But at some point it has to stop. You do have to keep in mind that the raid gear type of progression system was invented more as a way to hold subscription numbers. Its pezz dispenser psychology.
Raid's were absolutely NOT invented as a form of holding subs. Only people who started with WOW think that because they never played REAL mmo's like UO and EQ1.
Getting from level 50 to 60 in EQ1 for example took about 250-350 hours of solid XPing in a competent and efficient group, and thats not including incedental time such as waiting on a list for a spot in the group, or your group waiting for a spot in the dungeon to open up (there was no instancing back then, and XPing was not done by questing. The best XP was to run dungeons in a group as you got XP bonuses from mobs for being in a group and for being in a dungeon.
Raids were invented as a way for more than 6 people to work together towards a common goal because its not only satisfying, but killing big ass dragons and titans and stuff like that is FUN. And frankly taking down a dragon the size of a building with a party of 5 just smacks of absurdity (unless you are in our current generation where every game ensures that you're captain mcbadass with his +6 sword of ass whooping from level 1).
The time sink mechanics in real mmo's were the leveling processes, alongside longer travel times (there werent ports until much later, and even then they had maybe half a dozen in the entire world). They also had other timesinks that were actually fun, like fishing, swimming skill. EQ as an example's faction system was fantastic. I spent probably 200 hours on my paladin getting my rep up to the point where Dark Elf NPC's weren't KOS and just simply dubious. Etc.
Anyways, ill shutup now as i know these words will fall on deaf ears anyways, but damn if it doesnt make me feel at least a little better to get it out there.
This speaks to how I feel about the subject regardless of how it might have turned out in some people's minds. I am an old dnder and played chainmail before that.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by ShakyMo Gear chasing is just a band aid for poor game design. They can't make the game fun enough to play for the fun of playing it so they use gambling like gear acquisition models to get players hooked instead.
Gear progression *is* the fun. The whole Diablo 1 & 2 core gameplay is built on that (and combat) and was very successful.
There's another side to that same argument though. The fact that there is no subscription fee and no real gear progression means that there is far less incentive for people to feel invested in the game and stay long term. They will do exactly what you describe and leave for long periods of time, only returning when they want their quick fix. They won't stay and foster a strong and healthy community because they will have no reason to do so. They won't need a strong guild to help them progress through difficult content and earn their next piece of gear. Hell, they won't even need to do that content. There is no real incentive to even bother with it. What I fear we will end up with is the ultimate casual game... with no real community and no real long-term goals to strive for. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it at this point.
Why would I play a game that costs $15 a month so I can have four chances a month to get that one piece of gear off a certain raid? At what point does "why in the hell am I wasting my time and money on this BS" cross a person's mind? You raid for months for better gear so you can raid for months for better gear so you can raid for months for better gear... Which means, in the end the primary purpose of teired raiding is to keep you raiding the same limited content month-in, month-out in the circular grind of 'end game' raiding. Which gets us into WHY this exists:
Variable ratio schedules occur when a response is reinforced after an unpredictable number of responses. This schedule creates a high steady rate of responding. Gambling and lottery games are good examples of a reward based on a variable ratio schedule.
And so are MMOs. The same reason we have the variable-ratio raid drop is the same the reason abusive cash-shop games sell 'random item chests' instead of the stuff directly. Hook the people on the gambler's high. They'll keep throwing money at you for that high. The primary point of raids, from the developer's perspective, is to give you a gambler's high.
It's like getting rats to press bars for rewards in a Skinner Box. And like the good little lab-rats hardcore raiders are, they'll defend that lever to the death all while pretending the cynical manipulation of the developers doesn't factor into the equation. Well, it does. The easiest way to make a lot of money without a lot of effort is to addict people to the reward systems of your product and carefully manipulate the rewards -- too many, they get bored and quit. Not enough, they get frustrated and quit. To regular, they get bored and quit.
But put it on the gated, variable ratio of weekly raiding. DING! DING! DING! We have us a winner. The most potent and addictive form of reward known to mankind. Those rats will press that lever until their little arms drop off because the next push may get that reward...
Well, I'm not a lab rat and I find that kind of reward system, used to milk me out of monthly subscription fees, to be insulting and demeaning. And foolish becaues it's pretty much a circular pursuit with designed obsolecense all so you can get some tranistory high from the reward of that piece of gear... Then hop right back on the bandwagon and do it again.
Truth is, if I don't raid or get into stats-based PvP, I don't need the next tier of raiding/PvP gear. Which means I don't have to spend all week grinding dailies, farming, etc. to get the resources (pots, food, water, whatever) necessary to raid so I have a 1-in-12/24/25/10/whatever chance of getting that piece of gear. And more importantly, I don't throw my money away on game that I have long since become bored and tired with because I've gotten addicted to the gambler's high of the loot chest.
variable ratio reinforcement gambling skinner box
Use that in google, go to google books, and you can read some basic, freshman psychology textbooks on the subject. There's no mystery. You don't need an advance degree in psychology or to be an 'expert' to understand this stuff. It's just a freshman level, cross-discipline (science elective) level course. No more complicated than English 101 or College Algebra.
I totally agree with the OP. Combine the lack of gear progression with downleveling and you have a game totally focused on skill. This is what ANet intends. This is not a mass market approach. As good as GW2 is from what I have seen this approach will not hold players much longer than did SWTOR. Sure GW2 is going to sell a boatload of copies initially (it already has) but when the mass of players hit their skill limit - they will leave.
So what I get from all the fanbois is that the CS is useless, wont be used and that anet will be just fine with the box sale alone.
So anet took time and ressource to make a CS that wont be used? Delusional much?
Worked for GW1. I don't think I ever used the cash shop. I know I have 8 characters. But I think they came through more campaigns and then the EoN expansion pack.
I may have used the cash shop. I can't deny I might have... But, like GW2, I find most of the stuff in there to be worthless. I'm just not going to spend money to open a chest that's just got MOSTLY crap in it...
I will buy the Pirate outfit. I love the pirate outfit. It should be, for all MMOs, mandatory gear. And Jack O'Lantern heads. And sexy short Santa dresses ...
That's what I waste my money on. Goofy and/or ironic cosmetic items.
Originally posted by Pandamin Its true, gear progression for an RPG is a good thing. But at some point it has to stop. You do have to keep in mind that the raid gear type of progression system was invented more as a way to hold subscription numbers. Its pezz dispenser psychology.
Raid's were absolutely NOT invented as a form of holding subs. Only people who started with WOW think that because they never played REAL mmo's like UO and EQ1.
Getting from level 50 to 60 in EQ1 for example took about 250-350 hours of solid XPing in a competent and efficient group, and thats not including incedental time such as waiting on a list for a spot in the group, or your group waiting for a spot in the dungeon to open up (there was no instancing back then, and XPing was not done by questing. The best XP was to run dungeons in a group as you got XP bonuses from mobs for being in a group and for being in a dungeon.
Raids were invented as a way for more than 6 people to work together towards a common goal because its not only satisfying, but killing big ass dragons and titans and stuff like that is FUN. And frankly taking down a dragon the size of a building with a party of 5 just smacks of absurdity (unless you are in our current generation where every game ensures that you're captain mcbadass with his +6 sword of ass whooping from level 1).
The time sink mechanics in real mmo's were the leveling processes, alongside longer travel times (there werent ports until much later, and even then they had maybe half a dozen in the entire world). They also had other timesinks that were actually fun, like fishing, swimming skill. EQ as an example's faction system was fantastic. I spent probably 200 hours on my paladin getting my rep up to the point where Dark Elf NPC's weren't KOS and just simply dubious. Etc.
Anyways, ill shutup now as i know these words will fall on deaf ears anyways, but damn if it doesnt make me feel at least a little better to get it out there.
I think raiding is fun, and for the most part, I believe the developers love creating unique raid encounters. It was always about player retention as well though. All timesinks in MMORPGs exist because of player retention. Players need a worthwhile goal to aspire towards in order to keep playing the cooperative side of any game. The only games that players enjoy just for fun would be competitive PvP games like TF2, League of Legends, and Warcraft III.
The carrot-on-a-stick grind was what kept people playing EverQuest. Your first 250-350 hours were leveling from 1-60, and once you hit the level cap, you competed for loot drops with upwards of 100 other people through endgame raiding. Just because it wasn't exactly the main method of player retention doesn't mean that it wasn't implemented with player retention in mind. The only monumental difference between EQ and WoW was the absence of most timesinks sans the raiding aspect. WoW was designed by a number of former hardcore EQ raiders, so naturally the raid game was pretty prevalent; yet WoW took raiding a step further by making it accessible to virtually anyone with a level capped character and some free time to grind gear.
I remember when I played WoW at launch...I found 2 other people to group with and we had all played beta, so we tore up al lthe cotnent really fast.....As we were approaching amx level I asked "what are wegoing to do once we hit max level?".....One of the others answered "oh then we just do dungeon runs for gear".....Once he said that I lost interest and didn't go back for a couple years.....I never had any interest whatsoever in doing gear progression but I guess to each their own.
Gear Progession = My epeen is bigger then your epeen.. Why? because I have more time playing with my epeen.. I'll pass.. I'm not into epeen contest.. I like playing a game WITH people, NOT against them.. It always baffles me why some people LOVE to compete against others, but NOT thru PvP.. but use gear progress PvE to say I'm better then you.. That is about as crazy as those that go around saying., "my BMW is better then your Ford".... Why should people care what one drives or what a FAKE imaginary character wears.. Really!!!
Originally posted by Theocritus I remember when I played WoW at launch...I found 2 other people to group with and we had all played beta, so we tore up al lthe cotnent really fast.....As we were approaching amx level I asked "what are wegoing to do once we hit max level?".....One of the others answered "oh then we just do dungeon runs for gear".....Once he said that I lost interest and didn't go back for a couple years.....I never had any interest whatsoever in doing gear progression but I guess to each their own.
I like the term for gears.
Some people actually like to pvp and pve and dungeon and raid and not for gear.
I think the truth is with progression is they are making say like a 100 hour games into a 1000 hour games. That's why they put gear progression.
I like all the dungeon, raid, pvp, pve. I enjoy doing them a few times. But I dont' enjoy doing it say like 100 times.
Gear progression in some games is just another grind. Whether it be a grind of repetition to get something to buy it with or repetition vs the drop rate. I'm not completely against the gear grind, but it's a fine line. Cross it slightly and it's a slow boring grind.
The real problem is, we keep calling games out on their grinds. Not a bad thing in idea. But, when game companies listen and get rid of the grind, they don't know what to replace it with. So, if game companies take out all the grinds, what's left? There needs to be some new goals. Some new ideas need to come out. At this point, I'd welcome a new grind if it were truly new just to see something else. That doesn't include the same grinds dressed up as something else.
Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:
It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.
Wrong! Gear does not make you great or amazing, skill, talent and working as a team makes you great and amazing. WOW is a great example of how completely inept people can get good gear.
It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).
As I said, it allows for terrible players to get good gear, in other words, they're not great or amazing, they just have good gear. Dominating people regardless of their skill? Do you really want a game where skillful players are punished and terrible players are rewarded?? *yikes!
In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.
They feel powerful due to gear, not personal skill, talent, or working together as a team. With gear progression, its all about the gear, nothing else matters; as you have already pointed out!
It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.
You mean hooked in order to keep paying monthly subs (wow anyone?).
You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.
You take gear progression and you are left with a game where players depend on skill, talent and working as a team instead of depending on the gear they have; no more grind. Players are free to enjoy the game rather than paying for a second job.
No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.
Not as fast as rinse-and-repeating gear-grinding raids ad nauseum
And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.
Again, you mean hooked in order to keep paying mothly subs... no thanks!
EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.
Gear progression requires a steady inflation of content that is impposible to meet. The only way to provide gear progression that takes a long time is to force players to play the same content numerous time before the game decides they are worthy.
Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:
It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.
It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).
In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.
It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.
You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.
No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.
And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.
EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.
In that case would unlimited levels be even better. With gear you just gain attribute boosts, with levels you gain skills as well.
But I can´t really agree with you, I actually want to become better as I play, not just upgrade my gear.
GW2 i mainly made for ANETs fans, just like Wow is made for Blizzards fans, not for everyone.
Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:
It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.
It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).
In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.
It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.
You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.
No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.
And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.
EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.
No it doesn't. Doesn't work at all. With gear progression there is no skill. It's all done by the numbers and Arenanet did not add gear progression.
No it doesn't. Doesn't work at all. With gear progression there is no skill. It's all done by the numbers and Arenanet did not add gear progression.
That isnt exactly true, GW2 do have gear progression. You will progress in gear as you level up and once you hit 80 you will start working on your endgame gear.
The difference is that all endgame gear is balanced so there isn´t 20 tiers of raid gear or anything, but it still have gear progression.
The first MMOs initially had the same gear progression as GW2 have (except GW2 have better balance), but eventually MMOs started with raid gear and the "modern gear progression". I blame EQ.
Comments
It's more fun than doing dailies and prep all week so you can run the same raid every Thursday! Month after month after month of doing the same thing over-and-over-and-over-and-over so you can get that one piece of gear...
Been there. Done that. Quit the game because of that. Was having fun until I let them talk me into raiding. Once I got caught in the cycle, I hated the game within months.
Hmm... that's pretty much a steaming load of crap. There's nothing in the cash shop that you need to buy to unlock any portion of the game whatsoever. Where are you getting your misinformation from?
Oderint, dum metuant.
It's for non-essential items. Mini-pets, dye packs, extra character and bag slots, costumes, those kind of things. You want to be a pirate? You can buy a pirate costume that not only makes you look like a pirate, but you get a whole new set of skills on your skillbar to go along with the effect. There are things like sunglasses, cook outfits, etc. Even some minor buffs that you can get in game and only work in PvE.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Are you incapable of making a distinction between wants and needs?
Believe what you will, and have a nice day.
Raid's were absolutely NOT invented as a form of holding subs. Only people who started with WOW think that because they never played REAL mmo's like UO and EQ1.
Getting from level 50 to 60 in EQ1 for example took about 250-350 hours of solid XPing in a competent and efficient group, and thats not including incedental time such as waiting on a list for a spot in the group, or your group waiting for a spot in the dungeon to open up (there was no instancing back then, and XPing was not done by questing. The best XP was to run dungeons in a group as you got XP bonuses from mobs for being in a group and for being in a dungeon.
Raids were invented as a way for more than 6 people to work together towards a common goal because its not only satisfying, but killing big ass dragons and titans and stuff like that is FUN. And frankly taking down a dragon the size of a building with a party of 5 just smacks of absurdity (unless you are in our current generation where every game ensures that you're captain mcbadass with his +6 sword of ass whooping from level 1).
The time sink mechanics in real mmo's were the leveling processes, alongside longer travel times (there werent ports until much later, and even then they had maybe half a dozen in the entire world). They also had other timesinks that were actually fun, like fishing, swimming skill. EQ as an example's faction system was fantastic. I spent probably 200 hours on my paladin getting my rep up to the point where Dark Elf NPC's weren't KOS and just simply dubious. Etc.
Anyways, ill shutup now as i know these words will fall on deaf ears anyways, but damn if it doesnt make me feel at least a little better to get it out there.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
This speaks to how I feel about the subject regardless of how it might have turned out in some people's minds. I am an old dnder and played chainmail before that.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Gear progression *is* the fun. The whole Diablo 1 & 2 core gameplay is built on that (and combat) and was very successful.
Why would I play a game that costs $15 a month so I can have four chances a month to get that one piece of gear off a certain raid? At what point does "why in the hell am I wasting my time and money on this BS" cross a person's mind? You raid for months for better gear so you can raid for months for better gear so you can raid for months for better gear... Which means, in the end the primary purpose of teired raiding is to keep you raiding the same limited content month-in, month-out in the circular grind of 'end game' raiding. Which gets us into WHY this exists:
Variable ratio schedules occur when a response is reinforced after an unpredictable number of responses. This schedule creates a high steady rate of responding. Gambling and lottery games are good examples of a reward based on a variable ratio schedule.
And so are MMOs. The same reason we have the variable-ratio raid drop is the same the reason abusive cash-shop games sell 'random item chests' instead of the stuff directly. Hook the people on the gambler's high. They'll keep throwing money at you for that high. The primary point of raids, from the developer's perspective, is to give you a gambler's high.
It's like getting rats to press bars for rewards in a Skinner Box. And like the good little lab-rats hardcore raiders are, they'll defend that lever to the death all while pretending the cynical manipulation of the developers doesn't factor into the equation. Well, it does. The easiest way to make a lot of money without a lot of effort is to addict people to the reward systems of your product and carefully manipulate the rewards -- too many, they get bored and quit. Not enough, they get frustrated and quit. To regular, they get bored and quit.
But put it on the gated, variable ratio of weekly raiding. DING! DING! DING! We have us a winner. The most potent and addictive form of reward known to mankind. Those rats will press that lever until their little arms drop off because the next push may get that reward...
Well, I'm not a lab rat and I find that kind of reward system, used to milk me out of monthly subscription fees, to be insulting and demeaning. And foolish becaues it's pretty much a circular pursuit with designed obsolecense all so you can get some tranistory high from the reward of that piece of gear... Then hop right back on the bandwagon and do it again.
Truth is, if I don't raid or get into stats-based PvP, I don't need the next tier of raiding/PvP gear. Which means I don't have to spend all week grinding dailies, farming, etc. to get the resources (pots, food, water, whatever) necessary to raid so I have a 1-in-12/24/25/10/whatever chance of getting that piece of gear. And more importantly, I don't throw my money away on game that I have long since become bored and tired with because I've gotten addicted to the gambler's high of the loot chest.
variable ratio reinforcement gambling skinner box
Use that in google, go to google books, and you can read some basic, freshman psychology textbooks on the subject. There's no mystery. You don't need an advance degree in psychology or to be an 'expert' to understand this stuff. It's just a freshman level, cross-discipline (science elective) level course. No more complicated than English 101 or College Algebra.
Worked for GW1. I don't think I ever used the cash shop. I know I have 8 characters. But I think they came through more campaigns and then the EoN expansion pack.
I may have used the cash shop. I can't deny I might have... But, like GW2, I find most of the stuff in there to be worthless. I'm just not going to spend money to open a chest that's just got MOSTLY crap in it...
I will buy the Pirate outfit. I love the pirate outfit. It should be, for all MMOs, mandatory gear. And Jack O'Lantern heads. And sexy short Santa dresses ...
That's what I waste my money on. Goofy and/or ironic cosmetic items.
I think raiding is fun, and for the most part, I believe the developers love creating unique raid encounters. It was always about player retention as well though. All timesinks in MMORPGs exist because of player retention. Players need a worthwhile goal to aspire towards in order to keep playing the cooperative side of any game. The only games that players enjoy just for fun would be competitive PvP games like TF2, League of Legends, and Warcraft III.
The carrot-on-a-stick grind was what kept people playing EverQuest. Your first 250-350 hours were leveling from 1-60, and once you hit the level cap, you competed for loot drops with upwards of 100 other people through endgame raiding. Just because it wasn't exactly the main method of player retention doesn't mean that it wasn't implemented with player retention in mind. The only monumental difference between EQ and WoW was the absence of most timesinks sans the raiding aspect. WoW was designed by a number of former hardcore EQ raiders, so naturally the raid game was pretty prevalent; yet WoW took raiding a step further by making it accessible to virtually anyone with a level capped character and some free time to grind gear.
I like the term for gears.
Some people actually like to pvp and pve and dungeon and raid and not for gear.
I think the truth is with progression is they are making say like a 100 hour games into a 1000 hour games. That's why they put gear progression.
I like all the dungeon, raid, pvp, pve. I enjoy doing them a few times. But I dont' enjoy doing it say like 100 times.
Gear progression. The ultimate hamster wheel.
Obviously no one wants to be statistically inferior to others. That'll force them to keep grinding for it. Run my little hamster. Run.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/46603-faq-equipment-attributes-and-you-updated/
You all saying GW2 does not have gear progresion please read the link above it debunks this false cry.
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Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
Gear progression in some games is just another grind. Whether it be a grind of repetition to get something to buy it with or repetition vs the drop rate. I'm not completely against the gear grind, but it's a fine line. Cross it slightly and it's a slow boring grind.
The real problem is, we keep calling games out on their grinds. Not a bad thing in idea. But, when game companies listen and get rid of the grind, they don't know what to replace it with. So, if game companies take out all the grinds, what's left? There needs to be some new goals. Some new ideas need to come out. At this point, I'd welcome a new grind if it were truly new just to see something else. That doesn't include the same grinds dressed up as something else.
Yes that is correct.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
my responses are in yellow
In that case would unlimited levels be even better. With gear you just gain attribute boosts, with levels you gain skills as well.
But I can´t really agree with you, I actually want to become better as I play, not just upgrade my gear.
GW2 i mainly made for ANETs fans, just like Wow is made for Blizzards fans, not for everyone.
Gear progression is NOT good actually.
Most people want a "reward" to show they've done something.
Really, the next raid will be scaled up to accompany your new gear, it might as well be cosmetic.
You're never really progressing, it's an illusion.
It's a design that forces people to repeat content so they can do more content, it's grinding and most people do NOT WANT grinding in a game.
You can have progression in a game without gear, levelling is progression, endgame is not.
No it doesn't. Doesn't work at all. With gear progression there is no skill. It's all done by the numbers and Arenanet did not add gear progression.
That isnt exactly true, GW2 do have gear progression. You will progress in gear as you level up and once you hit 80 you will start working on your endgame gear.
The difference is that all endgame gear is balanced so there isn´t 20 tiers of raid gear or anything, but it still have gear progression.
The first MMOs initially had the same gear progression as GW2 have (except GW2 have better balance), but eventually MMOs started with raid gear and the "modern gear progression". I blame EQ.