I don't want to derail the thread, but if someone would message me with the answer to my question here, I'd sure appreciate it.
Does your gear take damage in PvP in GW2 AND....how horrible is the repair cost IF it does?
You don't take gear damage in competitive PvP, but you do in world vs. world when you're defeated (not downed). The repairs costs are quite cheap, maybe a few silvers depending on the amount of damage.
No it doesn't. Doesn't work at all. With gear progression there is no skill. It's all done by the numbers and Arenanet did not add gear progression.
ya but, you need to remember everyone have gear progression too. Back when I played wow 2.0. If you have 2400 arena ratting, that's all skill because everyone with that ratting is deck out too. The problem is with the new people. They'll have a hard time to catch up.
Originally posted by laokoko Originally posted by Loke666Originally posted by VladrielNo it doesn't. Doesn't work at all. With gear progression there is no skill. It's all done by the numbers and Arenanet did not add gear progression.
ya but, you need to remember everyone have gear progression too. Back when I played wow 2.0. If you have 2400 arena ratting, that's all skill because everyone with that ratting is deck out too. The problem is with the new people. They'll have a hard time to catch up.
This is the biggest problem with gear progression. The ever widening gap. In PVP, you create a chasm that becomes more and more impossible to bridge. As for PVE, you have this evolving mentality within the player base about how groups perform. Early on in an expansion or game, you have the traditional hard mode dungeon. It's challenging sine early on, most players are still in greens and blues and the fights are still being ironed out. But as the game/expansions matures and people begin to outgear the dungeons and the fights become a well rehearsed dance, again, new players are screwed. When Last I played WoW, I was leveling my new Worg Druid in Cata. I had the benefit of having been around in the prior expansion, so I had the resources to purchase a full set of BoA sets and have them full enchanted. I had also collected many various other BoE blues at various levels to fill in the gaps. I ended up with a toon that was prettymuch as close to BiS at every level you could get. WE PuG leveled dungeons and key quests all the way up. But in that time, I recall some players in the dungeons who were only wearing quested leveling gear. And in some cases were voted out of the group simply because their DPS was no up to par. Par for what? Par for what the dungeon was designed for? Yes! Par for OP supertwinks? No. This is my major beef with gear progression. But As I recall, WoW wasn't like this until Cata.
WoW's current state of progression and all of WoW's clones that are built around WoW's current state, are examples of the problem.
But it wasn't always like this. The early days of WoW did place more value in the journey to get there. It took months to level to 60 where now it's just a few weeks to 85.
Nah you obviously never played FFXI.Even though there was bascially one great item per class,the whole O/P idea was done with abilities and the 2 hour skill.I found that MUCH better than gear,The BEST reason of all is becuase i have seen in most every game,the alienation gear causes,it is not good.Also the arguing over who gets the great drop,it is always drama and never any positive from it.
What happened to ruin it in FFXI was RMT,they would bot camp the rarest drops everyday,soon flooding the market,Then that whole drama things starts again ,have the HAGEN nope,your not invited.That is waht i loved about FFXI,timers also added a ton of skill to the player,if yo uspammed at the wrong time,it was a long wait to get it back.
I feel gaming should ALWAYS be about the players thinking,that means no hand holding markers, and no o/p gear.
Those loot raids and tier gear is ONLY there to act as a carrot to keep players coming back.I like to tihnk i come back to a game for the FUN i have playing my class,not for the gear he is wearing or chasing after.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I could really live without cr@ppy players roflstomping encounters or PvP events because of their gear. I could say the exact same thing about uncapped skill based systems as well.
I don't know if gear based progression is good or bad for a game, but I know I can live without it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Gear progression is a good thing if all playstyles (raid, small group, solo, PvP, etc) are presented with a path that allows them access to said rewards. When access to gear progression is gated in favour of one specific playstyle, it results in dissatisfaction on the part of those who choose other playstyles, and an all too predictible loss in subscriptions.
The carrot and stick do work, but only if the person chasing the carrot thinks they have an actual chance of reaching it.
I truely fail to see any bonus for a game to have gear progression.. I would love to get an honest answer from the those that believe in it.. Why does one HAVE to have better gear the more they play , or more they progress? Is this an ego thing, or an epeen thing? Why not have "titles" instead of gear..... OH COULD it be that a title doesnt' make you stronger because you spend more time downing the same boss over and over each week? Something to think about.. There are other ways to signify that you spend more time in a game, but is a gear check the best way?
I'm not really against the idea of gated content and gear requirements, but the way it is done in all MMOs I have played has grown old and tiresome for me. Why must I kill these bosses again and again? Why make the drop rate so low? Why can't they just tie these gear rewards in some form of achievements thing; like if you've managed to simply kill the boss, you get an item, but when you completed all challenges related to the boss (e.g. avoid getting hit by AOEs for x minutes, or reach healing treshold X, etc.) you'll get that epic item piece. That way, you're actually dependent on skill rather than a stupid drop chance.
Heavy vertical gear progression e.g. wow / rift, war to a lesser extent tsw. KILLS PVP, makes it a baby eating competition, that eventually throws up a huge entry barrier to new players.
No gear, e.g. gw & planetside made pvp more fun
Progression can work though, e.g. Eve, with its if you specialise you get good at 1 thing as good as the vets, only the vets have more options in the role they play. Or daoc, with its stat caps, flatter gear curve & ability to craft a 99% good set
It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).
I'd be amazed if someone didn't already address this in the thread, but how in the 12 circles of Hell is this a GOOD thing? The list is questionable, but that one is just flat out ridiculous.
This is the kind of attitude that gets people yelled at later when their guild finds out that without gear, they're no good and due to gear, they have no intentions of getting better.
Originally posted by Rydeson I truely fail to see any bonus for a game to have gear progression.. I would love to get an honest answer from the those that believe in it.. Why does one HAVE to have better gear the more they play , or more they progress? Is this an ego thing, or an epeen thing? Why not have "titles" instead of gear..... OH COULD it be that a title doesnt' make you stronger because you spend more time downing the same boss over and over each week? Something to think about.. There are other ways to signify that you spend more time in a game, but is a gear check the best way?
Power ... that is a way to make the player feel more and more powerful. More DPS, more healing, more survivability.
You don't have to have gear check .. for example, D3 is taking OUT enrage timers. People would want to run their dungeons more efficiently and faster .. so that means they want higher DPS, healing & survivability.
Heck, it is satisfying to die from a horde of mobs before, and now i can wipe them out with one spell.
The thing is, there's always going to be some kind of grind in an online game. It just depends on how you define it. Even in a game where everyone is on the same statistical level, there are still different tiers of skill. Even in Guild Wars 2, you're going to have to run the same map with the same character tons of times to get the leg up. It still kinda seems like grinding to me.
Honestly, that was one thing that dissuaded me from getting into Call of Duty. I played a few rounds, thought it was pretty fun, and I could see its appeal. However, I could see a serious time investment before I could become competitive. Whether you're increasing your skill or your stats, you're still going to have to put in the repetition. If you don't like gear grind, that's totally fine, but don't act like getting away from the gear gets away from the grind. Unless you're some kind of prodigy, it's gonna take more than a few tries before you're going to be good.
I noticed that a lot of comments go from raid grinding to the competitive edge in PvP. I never did any raiding in Rift, but I had my gear for PvP. Raiding and PvP have become mutually exclusive, and don't I think that they should be lumped together. Having a gear grind for PvP seems worse, because the people doing that already have the competitiveness as the drive, but PvE content tends to get old more quickly. I mean, not many people will do the same PvE content over and over without getting anything out of it. Inevitably, the developer is going to have to add more PvE content; if the content is all based on skill, then difficulty curve is going to catch up with them right quick. You need to have statistical progression to give PvE longevity.
Another thing is that gaming is just a hobby, and for many people it's a way to relax. I used to solo grind to unwind a lot. I didn't always want a super-challenging experience. Claiming that grinding should be abolished is silly, and a little hypocritical in some cases (for the reasons that I've mentioned earlier). I think what Guild Wars 2 has done with the PvP is good, but I'm not sold on its PvE yet.
Comments
I don't want to derail the thread, but if someone would message me with the answer to my question here, I'd sure appreciate it.
Does your gear take damage in PvP in GW2 AND....how horrible is the repair cost IF it does?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
You don't take gear damage in competitive PvP, but you do in world vs. world when you're defeated (not downed). The repairs costs are quite cheap, maybe a few silvers depending on the amount of damage.
Oderint, dum metuant.
ya but, you need to remember everyone have gear progression too. Back when I played wow 2.0. If you have 2400 arena ratting, that's all skill because everyone with that ratting is deck out too. The problem is with the new people. They'll have a hard time to catch up.
ya but, you need to remember everyone have gear progression too. Back when I played wow 2.0. If you have 2400 arena ratting, that's all skill because everyone with that ratting is deck out too. The problem is with the new people. They'll have a hard time to catch up.
This is the biggest problem with gear progression. The ever widening gap. In PVP, you create a chasm that becomes more and more impossible to bridge. As for PVE, you have this evolving mentality within the player base about how groups perform. Early on in an expansion or game, you have the traditional hard mode dungeon. It's challenging sine early on, most players are still in greens and blues and the fights are still being ironed out. But as the game/expansions matures and people begin to outgear the dungeons and the fights become a well rehearsed dance, again, new players are screwed. When Last I played WoW, I was leveling my new Worg Druid in Cata. I had the benefit of having been around in the prior expansion, so I had the resources to purchase a full set of BoA sets and have them full enchanted. I had also collected many various other BoE blues at various levels to fill in the gaps. I ended up with a toon that was prettymuch as close to BiS at every level you could get. WE PuG leveled dungeons and key quests all the way up. But in that time, I recall some players in the dungeons who were only wearing quested leveling gear. And in some cases were voted out of the group simply because their DPS was no up to par. Par for what? Par for what the dungeon was designed for? Yes! Par for OP supertwinks? No. This is my major beef with gear progression. But As I recall, WoW wasn't like this until Cata.
WoW's current state of progression and all of WoW's clones that are built around WoW's current state, are examples of the problem.
But it wasn't always like this. The early days of WoW did place more value in the journey to get there. It took months to level to 60 where now it's just a few weeks to 85.
Nah you obviously never played FFXI.Even though there was bascially one great item per class,the whole O/P idea was done with abilities and the 2 hour skill.I found that MUCH better than gear,The BEST reason of all is becuase i have seen in most every game,the alienation gear causes,it is not good.Also the arguing over who gets the great drop,it is always drama and never any positive from it.
What happened to ruin it in FFXI was RMT,they would bot camp the rarest drops everyday,soon flooding the market,Then that whole drama things starts again ,have the HAGEN nope,your not invited.That is waht i loved about FFXI,timers also added a ton of skill to the player,if yo uspammed at the wrong time,it was a long wait to get it back.
I feel gaming should ALWAYS be about the players thinking,that means no hand holding markers, and no o/p gear.
Those loot raids and tier gear is ONLY there to act as a carrot to keep players coming back.I like to tihnk i come back to a game for the FUN i have playing my class,not for the gear he is wearing or chasing after.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I could really live without cr@ppy players roflstomping encounters or PvP events because of their gear. I could say the exact same thing about uncapped skill based systems as well.
I don't know if gear based progression is good or bad for a game, but I know I can live without it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Gear progression is a good thing if all playstyles (raid, small group, solo, PvP, etc) are presented with a path that allows them access to said rewards. When access to gear progression is gated in favour of one specific playstyle, it results in dissatisfaction on the part of those who choose other playstyles, and an all too predictible loss in subscriptions.
The carrot and stick do work, but only if the person chasing the carrot thinks they have an actual chance of reaching it.
No gear, e.g. gw & planetside made pvp more fun
Progression can work though, e.g.
Eve, with its if you specialise you get good at 1 thing as good as the vets, only the vets have more options in the role they play.
Or daoc, with its stat caps, flatter gear curve & ability to craft a 99% good set
I'd be amazed if someone didn't already address this in the thread, but how in the 12 circles of Hell is this a GOOD thing? The list is questionable, but that one is just flat out ridiculous.
This is the kind of attitude that gets people yelled at later when their guild finds out that without gear, they're no good and due to gear, they have no intentions of getting better.
Power ... that is a way to make the player feel more and more powerful. More DPS, more healing, more survivability.
You don't have to have gear check .. for example, D3 is taking OUT enrage timers. People would want to run their dungeons more efficiently and faster .. so that means they want higher DPS, healing & survivability.
Heck, it is satisfying to die from a horde of mobs before, and now i can wipe them out with one spell.
The thing is, there's always going to be some kind of grind in an online game. It just depends on how you define it. Even in a game where everyone is on the same statistical level, there are still different tiers of skill. Even in Guild Wars 2, you're going to have to run the same map with the same character tons of times to get the leg up. It still kinda seems like grinding to me.
Honestly, that was one thing that dissuaded me from getting into Call of Duty. I played a few rounds, thought it was pretty fun, and I could see its appeal. However, I could see a serious time investment before I could become competitive. Whether you're increasing your skill or your stats, you're still going to have to put in the repetition. If you don't like gear grind, that's totally fine, but don't act like getting away from the gear gets away from the grind. Unless you're some kind of prodigy, it's gonna take more than a few tries before you're going to be good.
I noticed that a lot of comments go from raid grinding to the competitive edge in PvP. I never did any raiding in Rift, but I had my gear for PvP. Raiding and PvP have become mutually exclusive, and don't I think that they should be lumped together. Having a gear grind for PvP seems worse, because the people doing that already have the competitiveness as the drive, but PvE content tends to get old more quickly. I mean, not many people will do the same PvE content over and over without getting anything out of it. Inevitably, the developer is going to have to add more PvE content; if the content is all based on skill, then difficulty curve is going to catch up with them right quick. You need to have statistical progression to give PvE longevity.
Another thing is that gaming is just a hobby, and for many people it's a way to relax. I used to solo grind to unwind a lot. I didn't always want a super-challenging experience. Claiming that grinding should be abolished is silly, and a little hypocritical in some cases (for the reasons that I've mentioned earlier). I think what Guild Wars 2 has done with the PvP is good, but I'm not sold on its PvE yet.