It's a design decision, if you take pretty much any raid boss in wow that can move, you always keep him still unless something requires you to move him and this is accomplished by having aggro on one single person this ofcourse doesn't work in GW2, anyone who's raided and wiped to a giant boss knows how they turn into giant pingpong balls, well that's pretty much how the ENTIRE fight would be, and it just isn't very epic nor does it moving around chasing people truly add anything to the fight in my opinion.
They could add a bit more static spots though so they aren't always in the exact same one wheter that be during the fight or in future DE's when they come back.
One could argue that if these dragons are so powerfull do they really need to chase around some bugs around their feet? Shouldn't they have some type of cool attacks to kill all even at distance with no need to chase every person individually?
A dragon that has to chase every person and swing to kill isn't too epic if you ask me, more lacking abilities.
On the side note. I have also noticed that huge bosses in GW 2 are static and not fooling myself to expect some crazy fights with huge dragon running around the meadow.
But I do remeber that final event from BWE2 when that huge dragon was flying around charr starting area so I guess if ANet wants to make their dragons to move they could actually do it.
Also we really haven't seen a fraction of big boss fights in this game so might be a bit too early to judge.
Also, BABY dragons O_o;? Those things are huge, you're joking right X_x? What are the higher end-game dragon fights? You running on their backs smacking giant mountains that are their joints x_X?
2 Things
1. One of the Elder Dragons is actually a mountain in the world before he wakes up.
2. if you think your other games do dragons better go play those.
Originally posted by Aerowyn they are mid-high level raids not top level stuff also show me a MMO with more interactive dragon fights
Rift Ember Isles Dragon world events.
You pretty much take out a bunch of checkpoints over the zone gain control while the dragon flys around hitting it with turrets. There is so much to that even hope GW2 does something like that.
I want Micahel Bay type fights where teh camera is contantly moving around large moving objects and I can't tell what is going on.
On a serious note I think the dragons are static because of animation. In WoW if a dragon lost agro it would just FLIP over to the person who took agro. There are no in between animations of the dragon turning around and one would imagine it's a reasonably slow process considering the size of the thing.
I guess that the Anet standard would include these animations and the dragon turning around.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
Hopefully we will see some actual AI come into play for the dragons of GW2, rather than the current scripted sequences.
I'm beginning to see why they made the dragons more stationary on GW2, because they didn't want players to have to run around everywhere constantly twitching the boss and they wanted the boss to look more realistic, the dragons in the videos above including the EQ one in another post all look like crap because everyones aggroing causing the dragon to turn instantly which we know isn't possible for something as big as the shatterer to do. Aesthetics rather then dance and twitch is what Anet went for. I'm thankful for it.
Hopefully we will see some actual AI come into play for the dragons of GW2, rather than the current scripted sequences.
Those are very differn't types of games where the entire areas are instances.. now we don't know but the final elder dragon battles could perhaps be in their own instance which would allow for more of this type of gameplay but either way they are working with the limitations of an open world raid
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
If you want more movement and interactivity in battle systems I think you should look towards more action oriented games.
Like: Monster Hunter series, Dark/Demon Souls, Dragon's Dogma, PSO series... dogma would be a good start it's a very easy game out of the ones I played.
That shouldn't be the case. TERA did a good job with making non-static boss fights, but unfortunately they decided to go a heavy instanced route with it.
Does that mean MMO's in general mean Static Fights are the only way? Certainly not, but no one has been brave enough or smart enough to realize people want something more than standing in place and whacking on a dumb AI.
It's a technology limitation. You don't like the trade-offs, fine. But not liking the trade-offs doesn't make this inferior.
I've played games that have dragons. And they spawn. And it's open world. And dragons, which are MUCH MUCH SMALLER than the GW2 dragons move-around in a limited area. But the funny things, if you compare the total combat volume... It's about the same. And when you hit about 50 players or so, the lagging and FPS issues become incredible.
I've played other games with big, moving-around-a-lot large dragons. But it's limited to 24-people in a raid instance. Others have been limited to 6-people. Or 12-people. Not too much lag. More complex encounters. But, sadly, they're all scripted and we've all learned the dance so it's not challenging.
Every game has to deal with the reality of trade-offs. With GW2 they have to deal with huge open areas, with scores (if not a hundred or more) of players fighting a world boss. All of whom must update each other. It's wicked complex and well beyond any amateur-developer insight and/or criticism.
Originally posted by Mephster It is called dumbing it down so the kids do not get frustrated and leave.
Love people saying it has no strategy. that's why they included barriers to get through, aoes front back and below so you can't find a safe spot, minimobs that the boss summons that you must kill to get close enough or get into the canons to use them or the canons will be destroyed etc etc. saying they dumbed down the fight is proof that you dunno what you're saying and it sounds like this, this whole thread sounds like this "i tink dis gayme is only gud for bad pleyer"
Hopefully we will see some actual AI come into play for the dragons of GW2, rather than the current scripted sequences.
Those are very differn't types of games where the entire areas are instances.. now we don't know but the final elder dragon battles could perhaps be in their own instance which would allow for more of this type of gameplay but either way they are working with the limitations of an open world raid
There you are Aerowyn wondered where you were! /cheer
Originally posted by Aelious I agree with the OP on those dragon fights. They would be more epic if they moved around even though other mechanics are involved.
However, we already know about other events that scale up to raid level and those are in low level areas. There is so much of the game we haven't seen yet and I assume Orr will be epic in proportion.
like someone said earlier once they get to a certain size there are pretty big limitations on how much they could actually let it move around.. first you have the space issue then you have tons of people all around trying to kill. Larger bosses in MMOs rarley have that much movement.. Well see how the true elder dragons battle go i'm very interested to see, and not to mention the finished product of these two fights since no one knows what that will be like yet.
You know, if they made them fly around a lot and all "real dragon," you'd be sure you'd be hearing a lot of whining. Let's imagine if they made a flying dragon with a very large breath weapon with appropriate range and power to the awesomness of dragons... What would likely happen:
Dragon swoops down and flames the entire zone.
Everybody dies.
Forums flood with complaints.
ANet's response: Nerf Breath Weapon Range
And this cycle goes on and on and on and on... Complaint/nerf, complaint/nerf, complaint/nerf until one day they all complain about how "too easy" it is... Or too static. Or too laggy. Or not enough treasure. Or whatever...
From my observations, game complainers, as a population, seem to only be happy when they're complaining and take every limitiation as some defect that is so fundamental that the game is doomed to complete and utter failure.... All while insulting people as 'fanboys' because they (the fanboys) get sick and tired of people stupidly ripping games over natural limitations.
And I understand bug ripping. I'm not Sister Mary Sunshine when you're dropping massive graphical, sound and execution, sometimes game-crashing, bugs on top of me. But those are errors. So while I'm very tolerant of reasonable limitations in game design, I am not so tolerant of sloppy, second-rate work and lack-luster addressing of issues that were solved years ago...
we don't know but the final elder dragon battles could perhaps be in their own instance which would allow for more of this type of gameplay but either way they are working with the limitations of an open world raid
GuildMag: The Elder Dragons are said to be huge—rather, enormous—will they be part of large dynamic events, or will we fight against them inside instanced areas? Eric: The only Elder Dragon that players encounter in Guild Wars 2 is Zhaitan, and he is fought as part of a dungeon. So it’s safe to say that at least for the initial release of the game, you’ll only see Elder Dragons in instances.
How interesting. I consider that to be, effectively, a static piece. The total area of movement is too small and confining. Do you have one where the dragon is flying all over... Maybe like flaming pubs from one end of Greater Faydark to the other? Because, despite playing EQ2 on-and-off over the years...
I just can't recollect anything I would really consider a non-static encounter. Even the encouters with movement 'wandering mobs' were linear and scripted with defined patrol paths. And if you paid enough attention you easily got their patrol paths down and could avoid them...
Hopefully we will see some actual AI come into play for the dragons of GW2, rather than the current scripted sequences.
Those are very differn't types of games where the entire areas are instances.. now we don't know but the final elder dragon battles could perhaps be in their own instance which would allow for more of this type of gameplay but either way they are working with the limitations of an open world raid
There you are Aerowyn wondered where you were! /cheer
Sadly he's wasting his breath trying to inform the masses since they will find something wrong with his views and go back into the same old arguments.
"Give a person an idea and they will find something wrong with it, ask a person for an idea and they won't know what they want"
I want raids and content regularly but I don't want scripted or too hard fights. I want gear progression but I dont want it to be overpowered. I want a cash shop instead of a subscription but I dont want to have to pay for anything. I want tons of action bars and spells but I won't want to use almost any of them. I want more complicated crafting but I want to be able to easily understand it... List goes on and on.
Common sense would tell me the size but ok let's keep playing dumb ha ha.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
we don't know but the final elder dragon battles could perhaps be in their own instance which would allow for more of this type of gameplay but either way they are working with the limitations of an open world raid
GuildMag: The Elder Dragons are said to be huge—rather, enormous—will they be part of large dynamic events, or will we fight against them inside instanced areas? Eric: The only Elder Dragon that players encounter in Guild Wars 2 is Zhaitan, and he is fought as part of a dungeon. So it’s safe to say that at least for the initial release of the game, you’ll only see Elder Dragons in instances.
this should allow for more complex mechanics to the fight for those people that don't see it as enough in the open world fights.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
In games like Everquest - yes the boss moved around and such,but you had a tank holding them in place,which made the whole moving thing moot anyway..
unless you were wiping lol.
I did one time aggro the Dragon in Dreadlands accidently on my bard..ran it across the zone without even knowing it was on me haha,killed a few people before it finally caught me :
I can see the point on both sides of this argument,would be cool if the bosses had more moevement in GW2..at the same time I can see the restraints and the reasons they didnt take that approach.
Comments
It's a design decision, if you take pretty much any raid boss in wow that can move, you always keep him still unless something requires you to move him and this is accomplished by having aggro on one single person this ofcourse doesn't work in GW2, anyone who's raided and wiped to a giant boss knows how they turn into giant pingpong balls, well that's pretty much how the ENTIRE fight would be, and it just isn't very epic nor does it moving around chasing people truly add anything to the fight in my opinion.
They could add a bit more static spots though so they aren't always in the exact same one wheter that be during the fight or in future DE's when they come back.
One could argue that if these dragons are so powerfull do they really need to chase around some bugs around their feet? Shouldn't they have some type of cool attacks to kill all even at distance with no need to chase every person individually?
A dragon that has to chase every person and swing to kill isn't too epic if you ask me, more lacking abilities.
On the side note. I have also noticed that huge bosses in GW 2 are static and not fooling myself to expect some crazy fights with huge dragon running around the meadow.
But I do remeber that final event from BWE2 when that huge dragon was flying around charr starting area so I guess if ANet wants to make their dragons to move they could actually do it.
Also we really haven't seen a fraction of big boss fights in this game so might be a bit too early to judge.
2 Things
1. One of the Elder Dragons is actually a mountain in the world before he wakes up.
2. if you think your other games do dragons better go play those.
Rift Ember Isles Dragon world events.
You pretty much take out a bunch of checkpoints over the zone gain control while the dragon flys around hitting it with turrets. There is so much to that even hope GW2 does something like that.
I want Micahel Bay type fights where teh camera is contantly moving around large moving objects and I can't tell what is going on.
On a serious note I think the dragons are static because of animation. In WoW if a dragon lost agro it would just FLIP over to the person who took agro. There are no in between animations of the dragon turning around and one would imagine it's a reasonably slow process considering the size of the thing.
I guess that the Anet standard would include these animations and the dragon turning around.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
Why?
Because
1) those are open world fights and not instanced
2) those fights are designed for up to 100 players
3) you cannot tank and spank in Gw2
4) it would look silly trying to follow a massive dragon roaming around the land
Because they are scripted.
That said, there is still lots of stuff going on and you're not really able to stand still and nuke as a player yourself, which makes it pretty fun.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Compare the size of Eireen to the Shatterer. Also look at all the clipping and 1 sec 360s it does.
BOOYAKA!
Better Dragons
1
2
3
4
Hopefully we will see some actual AI come into play for the dragons of GW2, rather than the current scripted sequences.
I'm beginning to see why they made the dragons more stationary on GW2, because they didn't want players to have to run around everywhere constantly twitching the boss and they wanted the boss to look more realistic, the dragons in the videos above including the EQ one in another post all look like crap because everyones aggroing causing the dragon to turn instantly which we know isn't possible for something as big as the shatterer to do. Aesthetics rather then dance and twitch is what Anet went for. I'm thankful for it.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Those are very differn't types of games where the entire areas are instances.. now we don't know but the final elder dragon battles could perhaps be in their own instance which would allow for more of this type of gameplay but either way they are working with the limitations of an open world raid
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
It's a technology limitation. You don't like the trade-offs, fine. But not liking the trade-offs doesn't make this inferior.
I've played games that have dragons. And they spawn. And it's open world. And dragons, which are MUCH MUCH SMALLER than the GW2 dragons move-around in a limited area. But the funny things, if you compare the total combat volume... It's about the same. And when you hit about 50 players or so, the lagging and FPS issues become incredible.
I've played other games with big, moving-around-a-lot large dragons. But it's limited to 24-people in a raid instance. Others have been limited to 6-people. Or 12-people. Not too much lag. More complex encounters. But, sadly, they're all scripted and we've all learned the dance so it's not challenging.
Every game has to deal with the reality of trade-offs. With GW2 they have to deal with huge open areas, with scores (if not a hundred or more) of players fighting a world boss. All of whom must update each other. It's wicked complex and well beyond any amateur-developer insight and/or criticism.
Love people saying it has no strategy. that's why they included barriers to get through, aoes front back and below so you can't find a safe spot, minimobs that the boss summons that you must kill to get close enough or get into the canons to use them or the canons will be destroyed etc etc. saying they dumbed down the fight is proof that you dunno what you're saying and it sounds like this, this whole thread sounds like this "i tink dis gayme is only gud for bad pleyer"
Where is Aerowyn btw?
There you are Aerowyn wondered where you were! /cheer
If i understood correctly, Dragons dont jump around and stuff? Who really cares?
I'd rather have this then dragons at the bottom of some dungeon seen only by 5% of game population, and yet somehow trademarked by publlishers.
And still, it is not to say that "static" = no strategy involved. In fact, none of us was there to fight Dragon encounters to describe how it was.
And it is not to say that we wont have these in future content. Something need to be reserved for patches/expansions right?
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
You know, if they made them fly around a lot and all "real dragon," you'd be sure you'd be hearing a lot of whining. Let's imagine if they made a flying dragon with a very large breath weapon with appropriate range and power to the awesomness of dragons... What would likely happen:
And this cycle goes on and on and on and on... Complaint/nerf, complaint/nerf, complaint/nerf until one day they all complain about how "too easy" it is... Or too static. Or too laggy. Or not enough treasure. Or whatever...
From my observations, game complainers, as a population, seem to only be happy when they're complaining and take every limitiation as some defect that is so fundamental that the game is doomed to complete and utter failure.... All while insulting people as 'fanboys' because they (the fanboys) get sick and tired of people stupidly ripping games over natural limitations.
And I understand bug ripping. I'm not Sister Mary Sunshine when you're dropping massive graphical, sound and execution, sometimes game-crashing, bugs on top of me. But those are errors. So while I'm very tolerant of reasonable limitations in game design, I am not so tolerant of sloppy, second-rate work and lack-luster addressing of issues that were solved years ago...
we do know the GW2 elder dragon will be instanced
http://www.guildmag.com/magazine/issue7/flannumintv.html
GuildMag: The Elder Dragons are said to be huge—rather, enormous—will they be part of large dynamic events, or will we fight against them inside instanced areas?
Eric: The only Elder Dragon that players encounter in Guild Wars 2 is Zhaitan, and he is fought as part of a dungeon. So it’s safe to say that at least for the initial release of the game, you’ll only see Elder Dragons in instances.
EQ2 fan sites
How interesting. I consider that to be, effectively, a static piece. The total area of movement is too small and confining. Do you have one where the dragon is flying all over... Maybe like flaming pubs from one end of Greater Faydark to the other? Because, despite playing EQ2 on-and-off over the years...
I just can't recollect anything I would really consider a non-static encounter. Even the encouters with movement 'wandering mobs' were linear and scripted with defined patrol paths. And if you paid enough attention you easily got their patrol paths down and could avoid them...
lol. Sadly so in many cases...
Sadly he's wasting his breath trying to inform the masses since they will find something wrong with his views and go back into the same old arguments.
"Give a person an idea and they will find something wrong with it, ask a person for an idea and they won't know what they want"
I want raids and content regularly but I don't want scripted or too hard fights. I want gear progression but I dont want it to be overpowered. I want a cash shop instead of a subscription but I dont want to have to pay for anything. I want tons of action bars and spells but I won't want to use almost any of them. I want more complicated crafting but I want to be able to easily understand it... List goes on and on.
Common sense would tell me the size but ok let's keep playing dumb ha ha.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
this should allow for more complex mechanics to the fight for those people that don't see it as enough in the open world fights.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
In games like Everquest - yes the boss moved around and such,but you had a tank holding them in place,which made the whole moving thing moot anyway..
unless you were wiping lol.
I did one time aggro the Dragon in Dreadlands accidently on my bard..ran it across the zone without even knowing it was on me haha,killed a few people before it finally caught me :
I can see the point on both sides of this argument,would be cool if the bosses had more moevement in GW2..at the same time I can see the restraints and the reasons they didnt take that approach.