Originally posted by Aerowyn they are mid-high level raids not top level stuff also show me a MMO with more interactive dragon fights
Everquest?
Big ass Dragons that you had to worry about hate, aggro, etc. They moved, and reacted based on different events. Even EQII being the horrible game that it was had better Dragon events.
DAOC had half decent Dragon events too that worried about how many people were hitting it, how many DPS were hitting it, and how many healers were active rather than hate management. The events would also change based on # of players to make it drastically harder if you brought 100 instead fo 50.
Also, BABY dragons O_o;? Those things are huge, you're joking right X_x? What are the higher end-game dragon fights? You running on their backs smacking giant mountains that are their joints x_X?
Also, "top Level" or not those dragons are extremely dumb and static fights. Just saying .
got any video? I remember most being very static like wow, rift.. ect
not ot mention both those videos are very old the shatterer one is years old so no telling how the mechanics will be at launch
You're kidding right O_o? Have you never raided in EQ/EQII/DAOC? I've had to manage those before, and we've had stupid people screw up the whole encounter and the dragon moving around going on a rampage masacreing people :O!
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
i hope people understand that this fight doesnt happen often, as well as the fact that based on how different events play out you may or may not have things like npc renforcements and artilery. its a static fight based onthe fact that it is located in the open world and designed for huge amount of people. Try some of the bosses in the dungeons and such.
Originally posted by Aerowyn they are mid-high level raids not top level stuff also show me a MMO with more interactive dragon fights
DDO, the green dragon in the kings forest andagain in the quest "Don't drink the water". There also the black dragon in "Mired in kobolds" or "Gianthold Tor".
They don't just stupidly stand there they run after you switch agro depending on player actions etc.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Originally posted by Aerowyn they are mid-high level raids not top level stuff also show me a MMO with more interactive dragon fights
DDO, the green dragon in the kings forest andagain in the quest "Don't drink the water". There also the black dragon in "Mired in kobolds" or "Gianthold Tor".
They don't just stupidly stand there they run after you switch agro depending on player actions etc.
i'm not familar to much with DDO but is it a massive dragon designed for upto 100+ people that could jump in at any time?
just watched 3 DDO dragon raids.. all the dragons pretty much just sit there
dragon shows up towards minute 20.. this is a very small dragon so the comparison is not even close.. also the dragon hardly moves around or does anything at all
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Aerowyn they are mid-high level raids not top level stuff also show me a MMO with more interactive dragon fights
DDO, the green dragon in the kings forest andagain in the quest "Don't drink the water". There also the black dragon in "Mired in kobolds" or "Gianthold Tor".
They don't just stupidly stand there they run after you switch agro depending on player actions etc.
i'm not familar to much with DDO but is it a massive dragon designed for upto 100+ people that could jump in at any time?
The giant hold tor dragons dont really move much or at least not for me the Mired of Kololds one goes after who ever it wants thats for sure. I have not done the other the Red dragon in VoN is kinda static but has uber one shot power if our in lvl rng of the quest. And Aerowyn is correct in another artical I read and If I can find it I will post it but the devs have said many times the difficulty of most events go up depending on how many players are involed they have also said the higher the lvl the content the harder the DE's come.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
think nostlaga has really eaten away at peoples memories.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Aerowyn they are mid-high level raids not top level stuff also show me a MMO with more interactive dragon fights
DDO, the green dragon in the kings forest andagain in the quest "Don't drink the water". There also the black dragon in "Mired in kobolds" or "Gianthold Tor".
They don't just stupidly stand there they run after you switch agro depending on player actions etc.
i'm not familar to much with DDO but is it a massive dragon designed for upto 100+ people that could jump in at any time?
The giant hold tor dragons dont really move much or at least not for me the Mired of Kololds one goes after who ever it wants thats for sure. I have not done the other the Red dragon in VoN is kinda static but has uber one shot power if our in lvl rng of the quest. And Aerowyn is correct in another artical I read and If I can find it I will post it but the devs have said many times the difficulty of most events go up depending on how many players are involed they have also said the higher the lvl the content the harder the DE's come.
The dragons i mentioned are in quest which mean 6 people max, only velah is a raid dragon. She's pretty static like i mentioned.
As for the youtube you are showing its a "normal" run. Normal runs are pretty dang casual, in ddo i can solo the big cows on epic normal. They get harder with the difficulty level you choose hard is not so bad for a geared player and epic elite well good luck soloing the green dragon lol. What this means is they get stronger, mages use diff spells etc etc all depending on difficulty.
The dragon won't run around ofc if you are tanking it lol but then that becuase you are trying to keep it there via agro intimidate/threat generation etc. Also in Tor there a dragon AND a giant boss they need to be killed at the same time or they come back to life. thus the strategy to split them up and try to keep them in place for most groups. My wife and i duo them on norm and she kites the dragon around while i stick to the giant.
In the video there are only 3 people in the group so they are shortmanning the quest and as such you have one toon playing meatshield. The meat sheild ( the fighter)is keeping the agro so the arti can range it and the fvs is prob healing the meat shield and ranging the dragon aswell.
Oh there 2 dragons in "mired" the first one which is the baby and there's the mom which shows up after completion, most people leave after completion as the mom is much mich harder to kill than her baby.
Btw nostalgia has nothing to do with my post i still play ddo n just did some tests in mired a few days ago.
The point though is they could if they wanted too make it more exciting, they don't all have to be Velah the red raid dragon fights.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Originally posted by Aerowyn think nostlaga has really eaten away at peoples memories.
Memories often change with time, and oftentimes glorified. This is actually a well document scientific fact. Memories are not reliable.
Anyways, I stated this in the first few pages and I'll state it again:
The large dragons in GW2 are static because of their size. Usually no mob as large as GW2 dragons will move that much, unless it's in an instance or a single player game. And even then, the movements are limited.
GW2 dragons (the lieutenants, which are extremely large) + potentially a hundred or more players + spells going off from all the players + all the mobs that spawn as a result of the event + the effects of the environmental weapons already puts a strain on performance. Trying to make a person's computer attempt to render all of that AND have the massive (and I mean massive) dragon move will through the entire game into a performance nightmare for those who are participating. Even those who have top of the line computers may struggle a bit. Those who don't (your average person) will most likely have their computers crash. You just can't put that much strain on the average person's computer.
This doesn't make the encounter any less fun or challenging. They just have to look at other ways to do it. Those who experienced it at the demos had a blast. I didn't experience the Shatterer, but I experienced the other dragon (don't remember the name). I had a blast playing it. I look forward to doing these events with the real difficulty,
And as I said, you can't just difficulty based off of demo videos. ArenaNet directly stated that the difficulty was turned down for the demos.
The other thing people need to keep in mind is that these events are the rare events. They don't happen every 3 hours. You can't just go do this event whenever you feel like it.
Originally posted by Aerowyn think nostlaga has really eaten away at peoples memories.
Memories often change with time, and oftentimes glorified. This is actually a well document scientific fact. Memories are not reliable.
Anyways, I stated this in the first few pages and I'll state it again:
The large dragons in GW2 are static because of their size. Usually no mob as large as GW2 dragons will move that much, unless it's in an instance or a single player game. And even then, the movements are limited.
GW2 dragons (the lieutenants, which are extremely large) + potentially a hundred or more players + spells going off from all the players + all the mobs that spawn as a result of the event + the effects of the environmental weapons already puts a strain on performance. Trying to make a person's computer attempt to render all of that AND have the massive (and I mean massive) dragon move will through the entire game into a performance nightmare for those who are participating. Even those who have top of the line computers may struggle a bit. Those who don't (your average person) will most likely have their computers crash. You just can't put that much strain on the average person's computer.
This doesn't make the encounter any less fun or challenging. They just have to look at other ways to do it. Those who experienced it at the demos had a blast. I didn't experience the Shatterer, but I experienced the other dragon (don't remember the name). I had a blast playing it. I look forward to doing these events with the real difficulty,
And as I said, you can't just difficulty based off of demo videos. ArenaNet directly stated that the difficulty was turned down for the demos.
The other thing people need to keep in mind is that these events are the rare events. They don't happen every 3 hours. You can't just go do this event whenever you feel like it.
good post and I agree although I'm sure it will just get ignored by most people like the last one..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Aerowyn think nostlaga has really eaten away at peoples memories.
Memories often change with time, and oftentimes glorified. This is actually a well document scientific fact. Memories are not reliable.
Anyways, I stated this in the first few pages and I'll state it again:
The large dragons in GW2 are static because of their size. Usually no mob as large as GW2 dragons will move that much, unless it's in an instance or a single player game. And even then, the movements are limited.
GW2 dragons (the lieutenants, which are extremely large) + potentially a hundred or more players + spells going off from all the players + all the mobs that spawn as a result of the event + the effects of the environmental weapons already puts a strain on performance. Trying to make a person's computer attempt to render all of that AND have the massive (and I mean massive) dragon move will through the entire game into a performance nightmare for those who are participating. Even those who have top of the line computers may struggle a bit. Those who don't (your average person) will most likely have their computers crash. You just can't put that much strain on the average person's computer.
This doesn't make the encounter any less fun or challenging. They just have to look at other ways to do it. Those who experienced it at the demos had a blast. I didn't experience the Shatterer, but I experienced the other dragon (don't remember the name). I had a blast playing it. I look forward to doing these events with the real difficulty,
And as I said, you can't just difficulty based off of demo videos. ArenaNet directly stated that the difficulty was turned down for the demos.
The other thing people need to keep in mind is that these events are the rare events. They don't happen every 3 hours. You can't just go do this event whenever you feel like it.
Then make the fight go into different stages where the scenery changes, keep the fight static but change some minor graphic hit stuff. Kinda like the Malygos fight in WoW.
Edit:
Or just make the dragons smaller, there really isn't a need for a dragon to be so big. It's a cool idea but it isn't practical. Dragons should be really big, but with the ability to not tax peoples machines and still be as mobile as a dragon really would be in real life. I want to have to run and hide sometimes and have a head poke into a house after me. I've had those moments on Skyrim where a dragon will hone in on my position in some rocks or something and they'll stick their head around a corner and bite my head off. People that have fought the Enraged Boar near Divinity's Reach know how mobile that fight is. I just think dragons should resonate power and be something that is gigantic, yet mobile like a true dragon would be. Cunning, magical creatures. Just talk to Paarthurnaax about it.../sigh
Originally posted by Aerowyn think nostlaga has really eaten away at peoples memories.
Memories often change with time, and oftentimes glorified. This is actually a well document scientific fact. Memories are not reliable.
Anyways, I stated this in the first few pages and I'll state it again:
The large dragons in GW2 are static because of their size. Usually no mob as large as GW2 dragons will move that much, unless it's in an instance or a single player game. And even then, the movements are limited.
GW2 dragons (the lieutenants, which are extremely large) + potentially a hundred or more players + spells going off from all the players + all the mobs that spawn as a result of the event + the effects of the environmental weapons already puts a strain on performance. Trying to make a person's computer attempt to render all of that AND have the massive (and I mean massive) dragon move will through the entire game into a performance nightmare for those who are participating. Even those who have top of the line computers may struggle a bit. Those who don't (your average person) will most likely have their computers crash. You just can't put that much strain on the average person's computer.
This doesn't make the encounter any less fun or challenging. They just have to look at other ways to do it. Those who experienced it at the demos had a blast. I didn't experience the Shatterer, but I experienced the other dragon (don't remember the name). I had a blast playing it. I look forward to doing these events with the real difficulty,
And as I said, you can't just difficulty based off of demo videos. ArenaNet directly stated that the difficulty was turned down for the demos.
The other thing people need to keep in mind is that these events are the rare events. They don't happen every 3 hours. You can't just go do this event whenever you feel like it.
Then make the fight go into different stages where the scenery changes, keep the fight static but change some minor graphic hit stuff. Kinda like the Malygos fight in WoW.
Edit:
Or just make the dragons smaller, there really isn't a need for a dragon to be so big. It's a cool idea but it isn't practical. Dragons should be really big, but with the ability to not tax peoples machines and still be as mobile as a dragon really would be in real life. I want to have to run and hide sometimes and have a head poke into a house after me. I've had those moments on Skyrim where a dragon will hone in on my position in some rocks or something and they'll stick their head around a corner and bite my head off. People that have fought the Enraged Boar near Divinity's Reach know how mobile that fight is. I just think dragons should resonate power and be something that is gigantic, yet mobile like a true dragon would be. Cunning, magical creatures. Just talk to Paarthurnaax about it.../sigh
I do know that Zhaitan's champion, Tequati the Sunless, is a little bit more mobile. Not much. It does fly up in the air, and can cause various effects to appear. However, I think it's actually a little bit smaller than The Shatterer.
The problem is how do you balance mobility with size. The Elder Dragons are probably older than most other creatures in Tyria. They are even older than the Six Gods, and some say more powerful than the Gods. How do you balance expectations for the size of these creatures if they can cause so much havoc in the world with mobility? It's difficult. So you have to resort to other methods to display the size and power of these dragons while still making it fun.
Edit: If this was in an instance, I have no doubt they could make it more mobile. Just look at Glint in GW1 (who happens to be a former champion of Kralkatorrik). But since it's happening in the open world, compromises have to be made for performance. Again, this doesn't necessarily make the fight any less fun. Those who experienced it in the demo have came away saying that it was a blast, even on reduced difficulty.
Edit 2: You know a Malygos type fight in the open world GW2 may be interesting. I don't know if it would be feasible, but maybe... I suggest posting something like it on the forums at launch. That type of fight may be a good zone-wide event.
Linking to Monster Hunter, Vindicitus, and other INSTANCED action MMOs and comparing it to GW2 dragons is unrealistic. The game only has to account for about 8 players in one zone not 100s. Animating and scripting such a large creature in a dynamic event can cause all sorts of problems related to frame rate issues and the creature getting stuck (and being soloed or causing other bugs) that won't pop up in an instance.
The same goes for comparing to EQ2, WoW, and others to a lesser extent. These are generally instanced too even though the scale is much larger (20-40) it's still not accounting for as many players as in GW2 and the flexibility of players being able to join in at any point of the encounter.
If you think EQ fights are more "interactive" than GW2's or even WoW and EQ2's than you'd have to be wearing the latest model of rose colored nostalgia glasses. As a raider in EQ every dragon encounter pretty much boiled down to:
1. Wait upwards of 15 minutes for pull behind a wall or corner or whatever spot you were camping at the time.
2. 2 or 3 Monks feigned death and attempted to split the pull if other patrols (such as other dragons) aggroed. The Warrior would pull these when they got the go ahead from the monk. If you messed this up the raid wiped. This isn't really "interactive".
3. The dragon was then tanked in either an opened spot or up against a wall (literally half the model was inside the wall). It would sit there doing that the entire fight with only an attack animation going off occasionally and particles for the AoE (which of course looked like crap considering how many years ago it was).
4. DPS either ran in and out behind a wall to LoS dragon AoEs or in some cases just took the AoE (generally with resist gear based on the dragon you were fighting) and got healed through it. Oh, and your healers casted a complete heal rotation, which was literally their complete heal key followed by a macro that said who was next in the rotation (which would trigger the next cleric to count down before casting their next complete heal) and then sit down after using it or use a modulation rod and then sit.
That's it. That's every Everquest dragon fight EVER. Very "interactive".
Phantasy Star Universe had a few Dragon bosses that flew about and jumped all over the place. As well as Phantasy Star Online. But the PSO one you just stood in one spot and hacked at his back leg until he died.
That shouldn't be the case. TERA did a good job with making non-static boss fights, but unfortunately they decided to go a heavy instanced route with it.
Does that mean MMO's in general mean Static Fights are the only way? Certainly not, but no one has been brave enough or smart enough to realize people want something more than standing in place and whacking on a dumb AI.
Does anyone else see the irony here or is it just me? Do you not understand why those who have had different results typically went with an instanced approach?
You're right about the "Certainly not" part there after your question, it's called instances and that is one purpose they serve. Open World bosses (huge mobs) are given simple animations due to the amount of players that could possibly show up (OPEN WORLD). It's really not rocket science, so I really don't understand why you're confused about such a thing. A simple google search would answer any question you have about this. You should at least do that much before trying to insult others intelligence.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Every other dragon I've seen somebody mention or link to is one of these (Or several of them at once)....
1. Instanced, usually for very tiny amounts of people (PSO, Vindictus, Monster Hunter)
2. Teeny. (The Everquest dragons aren't a whole lot taller than the players, sadly The GW2 dragons could step on an Everquest dragon and wonder where it went. Speaking of which, I believe the developers said the shatterer was a 3 or 4 on a ten point size scale if the Elder Dragon is a 10.)
3. Incredibly poorly animated (Flipping 180 degrees with no in between frames of animation. It's one thing on a person sized mob, but the bigger the monster gets, the more stupid it looks)
4. On a nearly perfectly flat floor. Either an arena type room, a giant plain, or corridors that are totally flat.
5. Not moving around much unless you actually fail badly (Ie: During a wipe)
We're talking about dragons that are in the open world where literally hundreds (As in multiples of a hundred) people might be fighting it, that are far bigger than almost all the dragons shown, are out in an open world with various sorts of terrain and don't suffer from crazy 180-degree flip animations.
If you're talking about tiny things at the size of Everquest dragons, or some of the other dragons shown, there's some mid-sized boss mobs like the GW2 giant that are big AND move around and do things.
The final dragon boss is in an instance (5 people), so it's quite possible that it moves around more (Unknown). It almost certainly has more involved strategies.
It is known that the Shatterer does move around more before battle (Flying around before landing, for example), and that if you dont' beat him within the proscribed time limit (Not shown in the demo), he moves on from there after destroying his target. Also, there's a lot of sub-DEs that are involved, things like helping move supplies and defend engineers that are working on emplacements to help you fight the dragon. There is some sort of broad strategies involved in fighting the dragon, hard to know exactly how much will really be involved until we actually get there and can start bitching in a more informed fashion.
I read lots of the points brought up on both sides of the discussion, and had to watch the videos a few more times to think about it.. but sadly once i start watching the videos, I forget about the details and just think of how awesome it looks, and how much i'm looking forward to seeing these things in the game.
I would never claim to speak for anyone but myself; however, I would imagine there is a large group out there that will love these dragon fights for what they are and not what they could be.
Also, maybe we should put ourselves in the dragon's shoes. Being that big, it is probably thinking it to be a waste to chase every other odd critter around when there are plenty of them right at it's feet to stomp.
Originally posted by avici I read lots of the points brought up on both sides of the discussion, and had to watch the videos a few more times to think about it.. but sadly once i start watching the videos, I forget about the details and just think of how awesome it looks, and how much i'm looking forward to seeing these things in the game.
I would never claim to speak for anyone but myself; however, I would imagine there is a large group out there that will love these dragon fights for what they are and not what they could be.
Also, maybe we should put ourselves in the dragon's shoes. Being that big, it is probably thinking it to be a waste to chase every other odd critter around when there are plenty of them right at it's feet to stomp.
lol was thinking the same thing.. bigger a creature is less its going to move around just takes to much energy.:P
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Linking to Monster Hunter, Vindicitus, and other INSTANCED action MMOs and comparing it to GW2 dragons is unrealistic. The game only has to account for about 8 players in one zone not 100s. Animating and scripting such a large creature in a dynamic event can cause all sorts of problems related to frame rate issues and the creature getting stuck (and being soloed or causing other bugs) that won't pop up in an instance.
The same goes for comparing to EQ2, WoW, and others to a lesser extent. These are generally instanced too even though the scale is much larger (20-40) it's still not accounting for as many players as in GW2 and the flexibility of players being able to join in at any point of the encounter.
If you think EQ fights are more "interactive" than GW2's or even WoW and EQ2's than you'd have to be wearing the latest model of rose colored nostalgia glasses. As a raider in EQ every dragon encounter pretty much boiled down to:
1. Wait upwards of 15 minutes for pull behind a wall or corner or whatever spot you were camping at the time.
2. 2 or 3 Monks feigned death and attempted to split the pull if other patrols (such as other dragons) aggroed. The Warrior would pull these when they got the go ahead from the monk. If you messed this up the raid wiped. This isn't really "interactive".
3. The dragon was then tanked in either an opened spot or up against a wall (literally half the model was inside the wall). It would sit there doing that the entire fight with only an attack animation going off occasionally and particles for the AoE (which of course looked like crap considering how many years ago it was).
4. DPS either ran in and out behind a wall to LoS dragon AoEs or in some cases just took the AoE (generally with resist gear based on the dragon you were fighting) and got healed through it. Oh, and your healers casted a complete heal rotation, which was literally their complete heal key followed by a macro that said who was next in the rotation (which would trigger the next cleric to count down before casting their next complete heal) and then sit down after using it or use a modulation rod and then sit.
That's it. That's every Everquest dragon fight EVER. Very "interactive".
Yea congratulations on playing Everquest 10 years ago. Can't imagine why it wouldn't be as advanced as a game coming out now.
Everquest upped it's game since then, and still did dragons better than GW2 does.
GW2 is NOT a raid game, get it through your heads. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it just isn't what it is.
Yea congratulations on playing Everquest 10 years ago. Can't imagine why it wouldn't be as advanced as a game coming out now.
Everquest upped it's game since then, and still did dragons better than GW2 does.
GW2 is NOT a raid game, get it through your heads. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it just isn't what it is.
you bring up EQ1 then say GW2 isn't a raid game.. interesting.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
People just wanna hate on GW2 because they wanna be cool. Sad thing is that they are having a hard time even trying to convince themselves let alone anyone else.
Comments
just like good ol LEEROY
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
DDO, the green dragon in the kings forest andagain in the quest "Don't drink the water". There also the black dragon in "Mired in kobolds" or "Gianthold Tor".
They don't just stupidly stand there they run after you switch agro depending on player actions etc.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
i'm not familar to much with DDO but is it a massive dragon designed for upto 100+ people that could jump in at any time?
just watched 3 DDO dragon raids.. all the dragons pretty much just sit there
assume this is what you were talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9jgJYGvWU8
dragon shows up towards minute 20.. this is a very small dragon so the comparison is not even close.. also the dragon hardly moves around or does anything at all
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The giant hold tor dragons dont really move much or at least not for me the Mired of Kololds one goes after who ever it wants thats for sure. I have not done the other the Red dragon in VoN is kinda static but has uber one shot power if our in lvl rng of the quest. And Aerowyn is correct in another artical I read and If I can find it I will post it but the devs have said many times the difficulty of most events go up depending on how many players are involed they have also said the higher the lvl the content the harder the DE's come.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The dragons i mentioned are in quest which mean 6 people max, only velah is a raid dragon. She's pretty static like i mentioned.
As for the youtube you are showing its a "normal" run. Normal runs are pretty dang casual, in ddo i can solo the big cows on epic normal. They get harder with the difficulty level you choose hard is not so bad for a geared player and epic elite well good luck soloing the green dragon lol. What this means is they get stronger, mages use diff spells etc etc all depending on difficulty.
The dragon won't run around ofc if you are tanking it lol but then that becuase you are trying to keep it there via agro intimidate/threat generation etc. Also in Tor there a dragon AND a giant boss they need to be killed at the same time or they come back to life. thus the strategy to split them up and try to keep them in place for most groups. My wife and i duo them on norm and she kites the dragon around while i stick to the giant.
In the video there are only 3 people in the group so they are shortmanning the quest and as such you have one toon playing meatshield. The meat sheild ( the fighter)is keeping the agro so the arti can range it and the fvs is prob healing the meat shield and ranging the dragon aswell.
Oh there 2 dragons in "mired" the first one which is the baby and there's the mom which shows up after completion, most people leave after completion as the mom is much mich harder to kill than her baby.
Btw nostalgia has nothing to do with my post i still play ddo n just did some tests in mired a few days ago.
The point though is they could if they wanted too make it more exciting, they don't all have to be Velah the red raid dragon fights.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Memories often change with time, and oftentimes glorified. This is actually a well document scientific fact. Memories are not reliable.
Anyways, I stated this in the first few pages and I'll state it again:
The large dragons in GW2 are static because of their size. Usually no mob as large as GW2 dragons will move that much, unless it's in an instance or a single player game. And even then, the movements are limited.
GW2 dragons (the lieutenants, which are extremely large) + potentially a hundred or more players + spells going off from all the players + all the mobs that spawn as a result of the event + the effects of the environmental weapons already puts a strain on performance. Trying to make a person's computer attempt to render all of that AND have the massive (and I mean massive) dragon move will through the entire game into a performance nightmare for those who are participating. Even those who have top of the line computers may struggle a bit. Those who don't (your average person) will most likely have their computers crash. You just can't put that much strain on the average person's computer.
This doesn't make the encounter any less fun or challenging. They just have to look at other ways to do it. Those who experienced it at the demos had a blast. I didn't experience the Shatterer, but I experienced the other dragon (don't remember the name). I had a blast playing it. I look forward to doing these events with the real difficulty,
And as I said, you can't just difficulty based off of demo videos. ArenaNet directly stated that the difficulty was turned down for the demos.
The other thing people need to keep in mind is that these events are the rare events. They don't happen every 3 hours. You can't just go do this event whenever you feel like it.
good post and I agree although I'm sure it will just get ignored by most people like the last one..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Then make the fight go into different stages where the scenery changes, keep the fight static but change some minor graphic hit stuff. Kinda like the Malygos fight in WoW.
Edit:
Or just make the dragons smaller, there really isn't a need for a dragon to be so big. It's a cool idea but it isn't practical. Dragons should be really big, but with the ability to not tax peoples machines and still be as mobile as a dragon really would be in real life. I want to have to run and hide sometimes and have a head poke into a house after me. I've had those moments on Skyrim where a dragon will hone in on my position in some rocks or something and they'll stick their head around a corner and bite my head off. People that have fought the Enraged Boar near Divinity's Reach know how mobile that fight is. I just think dragons should resonate power and be something that is gigantic, yet mobile like a true dragon would be. Cunning, magical creatures. Just talk to Paarthurnaax about it.../sigh
I do know that Zhaitan's champion, Tequati the Sunless, is a little bit more mobile. Not much. It does fly up in the air, and can cause various effects to appear. However, I think it's actually a little bit smaller than The Shatterer.
The problem is how do you balance mobility with size. The Elder Dragons are probably older than most other creatures in Tyria. They are even older than the Six Gods, and some say more powerful than the Gods. How do you balance expectations for the size of these creatures if they can cause so much havoc in the world with mobility? It's difficult. So you have to resort to other methods to display the size and power of these dragons while still making it fun.
Edit: If this was in an instance, I have no doubt they could make it more mobile. Just look at Glint in GW1 (who happens to be a former champion of Kralkatorrik). But since it's happening in the open world, compromises have to be made for performance. Again, this doesn't necessarily make the fight any less fun. Those who experienced it in the demo have came away saying that it was a blast, even on reduced difficulty.
Edit 2: You know a Malygos type fight in the open world GW2 may be interesting. I don't know if it would be feasible, but maybe... I suggest posting something like it on the forums at launch. That type of fight may be a good zone-wide event.
We need to keep a few things in mind here.
Linking to Monster Hunter, Vindicitus, and other INSTANCED action MMOs and comparing it to GW2 dragons is unrealistic. The game only has to account for about 8 players in one zone not 100s. Animating and scripting such a large creature in a dynamic event can cause all sorts of problems related to frame rate issues and the creature getting stuck (and being soloed or causing other bugs) that won't pop up in an instance.
The same goes for comparing to EQ2, WoW, and others to a lesser extent. These are generally instanced too even though the scale is much larger (20-40) it's still not accounting for as many players as in GW2 and the flexibility of players being able to join in at any point of the encounter.
If you think EQ fights are more "interactive" than GW2's or even WoW and EQ2's than you'd have to be wearing the latest model of rose colored nostalgia glasses. As a raider in EQ every dragon encounter pretty much boiled down to:
1. Wait upwards of 15 minutes for pull behind a wall or corner or whatever spot you were camping at the time.
2. 2 or 3 Monks feigned death and attempted to split the pull if other patrols (such as other dragons) aggroed. The Warrior would pull these when they got the go ahead from the monk. If you messed this up the raid wiped. This isn't really "interactive".
3. The dragon was then tanked in either an opened spot or up against a wall (literally half the model was inside the wall). It would sit there doing that the entire fight with only an attack animation going off occasionally and particles for the AoE (which of course looked like crap considering how many years ago it was).
4. DPS either ran in and out behind a wall to LoS dragon AoEs or in some cases just took the AoE (generally with resist gear based on the dragon you were fighting) and got healed through it. Oh, and your healers casted a complete heal rotation, which was literally their complete heal key followed by a macro that said who was next in the rotation (which would trigger the next cleric to count down before casting their next complete heal) and then sit down after using it or use a modulation rod and then sit.
That's it. That's every Everquest dragon fight EVER. Very "interactive".
Does anyone else see the irony here or is it just me? Do you not understand why those who have had different results typically went with an instanced approach?
You're right about the "Certainly not" part there after your question, it's called instances and that is one purpose they serve. Open World bosses (huge mobs) are given simple animations due to the amount of players that could possibly show up (OPEN WORLD). It's really not rocket science, so I really don't understand why you're confused about such a thing. A simple google search would answer any question you have about this. You should at least do that much before trying to insult others intelligence.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Every other dragon I've seen somebody mention or link to is one of these (Or several of them at once)....
1. Instanced, usually for very tiny amounts of people (PSO, Vindictus, Monster Hunter)
2. Teeny. (The Everquest dragons aren't a whole lot taller than the players, sadly The GW2 dragons could step on an Everquest dragon and wonder where it went. Speaking of which, I believe the developers said the shatterer was a 3 or 4 on a ten point size scale if the Elder Dragon is a 10.)
3. Incredibly poorly animated (Flipping 180 degrees with no in between frames of animation. It's one thing on a person sized mob, but the bigger the monster gets, the more stupid it looks)
4. On a nearly perfectly flat floor. Either an arena type room, a giant plain, or corridors that are totally flat.
5. Not moving around much unless you actually fail badly (Ie: During a wipe)
We're talking about dragons that are in the open world where literally hundreds (As in multiples of a hundred) people might be fighting it, that are far bigger than almost all the dragons shown, are out in an open world with various sorts of terrain and don't suffer from crazy 180-degree flip animations.
If you're talking about tiny things at the size of Everquest dragons, or some of the other dragons shown, there's some mid-sized boss mobs like the GW2 giant that are big AND move around and do things.
The final dragon boss is in an instance (5 people), so it's quite possible that it moves around more (Unknown). It almost certainly has more involved strategies.
It is known that the Shatterer does move around more before battle (Flying around before landing, for example), and that if you dont' beat him within the proscribed time limit (Not shown in the demo), he moves on from there after destroying his target. Also, there's a lot of sub-DEs that are involved, things like helping move supplies and defend engineers that are working on emplacements to help you fight the dragon. There is some sort of broad strategies involved in fighting the dragon, hard to know exactly how much will really be involved until we actually get there and can start bitching in a more informed fashion.
I would never claim to speak for anyone but myself; however, I would imagine there is a large group out there that will love these dragon fights for what they are and not what they could be.
Also, maybe we should put ourselves in the dragon's shoes. Being that big, it is probably thinking it to be a waste to chase every other odd critter around when there are plenty of them right at it's feet to stomp.
lol was thinking the same thing.. bigger a creature is less its going to move around just takes to much energy.:P
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Yea congratulations on playing Everquest 10 years ago. Can't imagine why it wouldn't be as advanced as a game coming out now.
Everquest upped it's game since then, and still did dragons better than GW2 does.
GW2 is NOT a raid game, get it through your heads. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it just isn't what it is.
you bring up EQ1 then say GW2 isn't a raid game.. interesting.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg