I diagree about F2P being low quality. if anything EQ2 has increased in quality and i fully support that game and will continue to do so till the servers shut down.... so BITE ME!!
Today I learned that if a company is trying to make money of their product (a revenue generator), it's a scam.
See, you learn something new every day
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I don't know.. I did enjoy Age of Conan quite a lot for about 3 months after it went F2P without paying anything for it (well, I did pay for it at release, but lasted less than 2 months on it back then when it was P2P)
I don't know.. I did enjoy Age of Conan quite a lot for about 3 months after it went F2P without paying anything for it (well, I did pay for it at release, but lasted less than 2 months on it back then when it was P2P)
And do you feel that experience carries over to other F2P games?
LOL ... F2P is having fun without paying. It is someone else is subsidizing my gaming. I don't see a problem. If it is not fun, don't play it.
If it is fun, and free, why shouldn't i play?
Well throwing dog poop can be fun to some people and its free too.........
But it is still dog poop
Some people like to be trashy and that free as well......But they are still trashy
whats your point? you wanna say GW2 or planetside 2 are trash? never seen anyone talk so much without actually telling anything.
Remains to be seen, but so far it is looking like a generally high quality themepark. No surprises here as it was never billed as anything other than a themepark.
Yes, Planetside 2 is actually quite terrible. It is built around the idea of paying for power, and I've been in beta ever since it started. I can tell you AS FACT that the guns you can buy with real money are actually quite a deal more powerful than the free ones, and the ones you can buy with real money are actually slowly unlocked normal xp gained ones. Meaning i can drop $100 now and buy those 10 guns that will take you 3months of solid gaming to unlock. Utter BS! Higby lied to us, and some are still taking their time to wake up to that fact.
PS2 is a free game! The only way these games money is by letting people cut out the grind by paying for stuff. Who cares if it takes a month to unlock stuff for free... Servers dont stay open with hopes and dreams bro.
What you just said is the VERY DEFINITION of what we've been fighting companies from doing for years. Pay-To-Win, skipping the "grind" with REAL world money.
I'd rather pay a flat rate of $15/month, with ZERO cash shop, and everyone be on level terms. If the product is worth the money it'll be highly successful. If not, it will fail like it should in an "Open Market".
Putting an overpowered item in a shop that you can only access with cash is pay2win. Locking out free players from obtaining power by putting it in a shop only is pay2win...
Having items in a shop that is also available through normal gameplay IS NOT PAY2WIN!
Show me one item that gives someone a power advantage in PS2 that i can't also obtain through gameplay.
Your pay2win argument holds no wieght... same as the newbs that say Tribes is Pay2win. If everything that increases player power is obtainable through gameplay a game isnt pay2win... sorry.
LOL ... F2P is having fun without paying. It is someone else is subsidizing my gaming. I don't see a problem. If it is not fun, don't play it.
If it is fun, and free, why shouldn't i play?
Well throwing dog poop can be fun to some people and its free too.........
But it is still dog poop
Some people like to be trashy and that free as well......But they are still trashy
whats your point? you wanna say GW2 or planetside 2 are trash? never seen anyone talk so much without actually telling anything.
Remains to be seen, but so far it is looking like a generally high quality themepark. No surprises here as it was never billed as anything other than a themepark.
Yes, Planetside 2 is actually quite terrible. It is built around the idea of paying for power, and I've been in beta ever since it started. I can tell you AS FACT that the guns you can buy with real money are actually quite a deal more powerful than the free ones, and the ones you can buy with real money are actually slowly unlocked normal xp gained ones. Meaning i can drop $100 now and buy those 10 guns that will take you 3months of solid gaming to unlock. Utter BS! Higby lied to us, and some are still taking their time to wake up to that fact.
PS2 is a free game! The only way these games money is by letting people cut out the grind by paying for stuff. Who cares if it takes a month to unlock stuff for free... Servers dont stay open with hopes and dreams bro.
What you just said is the VERY DEFINITION of what we've been fighting companies from doing for years. Pay-To-Win, skipping the "grind" with REAL world money.
I'd rather pay a flat rate of $15/month, with ZERO cash shop, and everyone be on level terms. If the product is worth the money it'll be highly successful. If not, it will fail like it should in an "Open Market".
Problem is, everyone isnt equal in P2P either. It comes down to who has the most time to spend grinding away while ignoring the rest of life. Youll spend 8+ hours a day grinding in a game, others will spend 8+ hours a day "grinding" at real job, taking care of their family, etc. Should they be unable to enjoy the same things as you just because you have nothing else to do?
Its always kind of funny to me to see these types of things. I would think that someone who invested so much time in a game tha they earned stuff through the grind wouldnt care if others have the same stuff as them, in fact I would think you would enjoy it and laugh at them when you kick the crap out of them because you have become a better player with all that time playing. But maybe thats just it. Maybe you cant compete with people in equal gear who barely play a game, even though youve invested hundreds of hours getting "good" at the game, and so you would rather have that illusion there that better gear because of time spent playing actually = better player.
I work 8hrs a day, 5 days a week, for a total of 40hrs a week. I also can play for roughly 5hrs a day if I choose to. Another person's ability to spend time on something is an illogical statement. This will always be true no matter how you approach the matter. The fact that the same person doing 8hrs/day of gaming has to deal with the same stuff I do rather than spending $50 i'm not willing to spend each month on a VIDEO GAME means we're on level terms.
Your argument, albeit straightforward, is flawed in every regard. It has nothing to do with people having the same gear as you with less time invested. It has to do with that they're not EARNING what you earned through legitimate means, and that they're essentially cheating by using a credit card at a VIDEO GAME for virtual achievements.
It is pathetic, and completely unacceptable. You will NEVER convince someone against Pay-To-Win that it is EVER an acceptable norm.
Funny thing about cheating. Since when do you as an individual player determine the rules of an entire game? The developers decide the rules, not you.
On the subject of "earning" things. Sitting at a keyboard pressing keys a few hours a day vs working hard for the money you spent to buy the stuff... who actually "earned" something?
For me the payment model is really a non factor. There are good F2P games out there with reasonable in game shops that generally look to trade on the old adage money=time. There are also alot of bad F2P titles out there. Same goes for the subscription based games there are a few good ones but there are also alot of bad ones.
The reason I like F2P is simple I get to choose how much money I decide to spend over a given period of time so if I'm not going to play much one month I can still play the game but I don't neccarily have to pay for it where as with a subscription it doesn't matter if I play for an hour a day or if a play for 8 hours a day I'm still paying the subscription. The fact that most subscription games also have a cash shop seems alot like double dipping scammy practice than a straight cash shop at least to me.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
LOL ... F2P is having fun without paying. It is someone else is subsidizing my gaming. I don't see a problem. If it is not fun, don't play it.
If it is fun, and free, why shouldn't i play?
Well throwing dog poop can be fun to some people and its free too.........
But it is still dog poop
Some people like to be trashy and that free as well......But they are still trashy
whats your point? you wanna say GW2 or planetside 2 are trash? never seen anyone talk so much without actually telling anything.
Remains to be seen, but so far it is looking like a generally high quality themepark. No surprises here as it was never billed as anything other than a themepark.
Yes, Planetside 2 is actually quite terrible. It is built around the idea of paying for power, and I've been in beta ever since it started. I can tell you AS FACT that the guns you can buy with real money are actually quite a deal more powerful than the free ones, and the ones you can buy with real money are actually slowly unlocked normal xp gained ones. Meaning i can drop $100 now and buy those 10 guns that will take you 3months of solid gaming to unlock. Utter BS! Higby lied to us, and some are still taking their time to wake up to that fact.
PS2 is a free game! The only way these games money is by letting people cut out the grind by paying for stuff. Who cares if it takes a month to unlock stuff for free... Servers dont stay open with hopes and dreams bro.
What you just said is the VERY DEFINITION of what we've been fighting companies from doing for years. Pay-To-Win, skipping the "grind" with REAL world money.
I'd rather pay a flat rate of $15/month, with ZERO cash shop, and everyone be on level terms. If the product is worth the money it'll be highly successful. If not, it will fail like it should in an "Open Market".
Problem is, everyone isnt equal in P2P either. It comes down to who has the most time to spend grinding away while ignoring the rest of life. Youll spend 8+ hours a day grinding in a game, others will spend 8+ hours a day "grinding" at real job, taking care of their family, etc. Should they be unable to enjoy the same things as you just because you have nothing else to do?
Its always kind of funny to me to see these types of things. I would think that someone who invested so much time in a game tha they earned stuff through the grind wouldnt care if others have the same stuff as them, in fact I would think you would enjoy it and laugh at them when you kick the crap out of them because you have become a better player with all that time playing. But maybe thats just it. Maybe you cant compete with people in equal gear who barely play a game, even though youve invested hundreds of hours getting "good" at the game, and so you would rather have that illusion there that better gear because of time spent playing actually = better player.
I work 8hrs a day, 5 days a week, for a total of 40hrs a week. I also can play for roughly 5hrs a day if I choose to. Another person's ability to spend time on something is an illogical statement. This will always be true no matter how you approach the matter. The fact that the same person doing 8hrs/day of gaming has to deal with the same stuff I do rather than spending $50 i'm not willing to spend each month on a VIDEO GAME means we're on level terms.
Your argument, albeit straightforward, is flawed in every regard. It has nothing to do with people having the same gear as you with less time invested. It has to do with that they're not EARNING what you earned through legitimate means, and that they're essentially cheating by using a credit card at a VIDEO GAME for virtual achievements.
It is pathetic, and completely unacceptable. You will NEVER convince someone against Pay-To-Win that it is EVER an acceptable norm.
Funny thing about cheating. Since when do you as an individual player determine the rules of an entire game? The developers decide the rules, not you.
On the subject of "earning" things. Sitting at a keyboard pressing keys a few hours a day vs working hard for the money you spent to buy the stuff... who actually "earned" something?
Since when do you roll over when a developer claims that buying packages of in-game gold from their cash shop for RL currency is NOT considered cheating simply because they say it isn't?
It is based on perspective, and from the perspective of a gamer who has been playing MMOs & games in general it IS cheating. Saying otherwise is just arguing for the sake of it rather than trying to prove a point.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Since when do you roll over when a developer claims that buying packages of in-game gold from their cash shop for RL currency is NOT considered cheating simply because they say it isn't?
It is based on perspective, and from the perspective of a gamer who has been playing MMOs & games in general it IS cheating. Saying otherwise is just arguing for the sake of it rather than trying to prove a point.
Its not "rolling over". Its a simple fact. They made the game, and they determine the rules. Not you.
Since you mentioned perspective, lets use that. Some people would also argue that if an exploit exists, they should be allowed to use it, and it is the devs fault, not theirs. Would you agree with them? If not, why not? After all, thats their own perspective, and it seems you think players determine the rules and not the developers. So should developers just ignore these people and let them continue playing because those players have a different point of view than them?
Sounds pretty stupid doesnt it?
Im telling you this fromt he perspective of someone who has been gaming since age 5 (25 years of gaing now), playing MMOs for over a decade, and who has also been a head GM, admin, and dev. The staff determines the rules, not the players. You not liking it doesnt change that fact. You can simply choose not to play F2P games, and thats fine, but it wont change a thing.
LOL ... F2P is having fun without paying. It is someone else is subsidizing my gaming. I don't see a problem. If it is not fun, don't play it.
If it is fun, and free, why shouldn't i play?
Well throwing dog poop can be fun to some people and its free too.........
But it is still dog poop
Some people like to be trashy and that free as well......But they are still trashy
whats your point? you wanna say GW2 or planetside 2 are trash? never seen anyone talk so much without actually telling anything.
Remains to be seen, but so far it is looking like a generally high quality themepark. No surprises here as it was never billed as anything other than a themepark.
Yes, Planetside 2 is actually quite terrible. It is built around the idea of paying for power, and I've been in beta ever since it started. I can tell you AS FACT that the guns you can buy with real money are actually quite a deal more powerful than the free ones, and the ones you can buy with real money are actually slowly unlocked normal xp gained ones. Meaning i can drop $100 now and buy those 10 guns that will take you 3months of solid gaming to unlock. Utter BS! Higby lied to us, and some are still taking their time to wake up to that fact.
PS2 is a free game! The only way these games money is by letting people cut out the grind by paying for stuff. Who cares if it takes a month to unlock stuff for free... Servers dont stay open with hopes and dreams bro.
What you just said is the VERY DEFINITION of what we've been fighting companies from doing for years. Pay-To-Win, skipping the "grind" with REAL world money.
I'd rather pay a flat rate of $15/month, with ZERO cash shop, and everyone be on level terms. If the product is worth the money it'll be highly successful. If not, it will fail like it should in an "Open Market".
Problem is, everyone isnt equal in P2P either. It comes down to who has the most time to spend grinding away while ignoring the rest of life. Youll spend 8+ hours a day grinding in a game, others will spend 8+ hours a day "grinding" at real job, taking care of their family, etc. Should they be unable to enjoy the same things as you just because you have nothing else to do?
Its always kind of funny to me to see these types of things. I would think that someone who invested so much time in a game tha they earned stuff through the grind wouldnt care if others have the same stuff as them, in fact I would think you would enjoy it and laugh at them when you kick the crap out of them because you have become a better player with all that time playing. But maybe thats just it. Maybe you cant compete with people in equal gear who barely play a game, even though youve invested hundreds of hours getting "good" at the game, and so you would rather have that illusion there that better gear because of time spent playing actually = better player.
I work 8hrs a day, 5 days a week, for a total of 40hrs a week. I also can play for roughly 5hrs a day if I choose to. Another person's ability to spend time on something is an illogical statement. This will always be true no matter how you approach the matter. The fact that the same person doing 8hrs/day of gaming has to deal with the same stuff I do rather than spending $50 i'm not willing to spend each month on a VIDEO GAME means we're on level terms.
Your argument, albeit straightforward, is flawed in every regard. It has nothing to do with people having the same gear as you with less time invested. It has to do with that they're not EARNING what you earned through legitimate means, and that they're essentially cheating by using a credit card at a VIDEO GAME for virtual achievements.
It is pathetic, and completely unacceptable. You will NEVER convince someone against Pay-To-Win that it is EVER an acceptable norm.
Funny thing about cheating. Since when do you as an individual player determine the rules of an entire game? The developers decide the rules, not you.
On the subject of "earning" things. Sitting at a keyboard pressing keys a few hours a day vs working hard for the money you spent to buy the stuff... who actually "earned" something?
Since when do you roll over when a developer claims that buying packages of in-game gold from their cash shop for RL currency is NOT considered cheating simply because they say it isn't?
It is based on perspective, and from the perspective of a gamer who has been playing MMOs & games in general it IS cheating. Saying otherwise is just arguing for the sake of it rather than trying to prove a point.
The developer makes the game, they make the rules. Pretty basic. Don't like the rules, don't play it. Again, pretty basic. Saying it's cheating is absurd. Their game, their rules. Like I said - don't like, don't play it. No amount of bitching is going to change the rules unless no one plays said game. But if people enjoy spending the cash to get ahead, and it's enough to keep the developer going, I'd say the developer must have done something right. They don't make the game to cater to people who are unwilling to fork out any money for their game and feel entitled to a great, 100% F2P experience. Where's the profit in that? And yes, these companies hope to make a profit. It's called a "business."
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
Even if they were it wouldnt matter. A game is not pay2win if you can also unlock cash shop items through gameplay even if its a grind. Look at tribes, its much more of a grind. Pay 5 bucks to unlock a gun or farm for 30 hours for a gun... your choice.
Pay2Win is a business model and what you think is irrelevant. Free2Play isn't a scam, but a half truth and an advertising term used to get players to play games with cash shops.
If it is has a cash shop, then the game is P2W. Players can pay for an advantage. It doesn't matter if it is short/long term. The advanatage is there.
So what? I think it is pretty fair that someone who is subsidizing my game is getting a bit of an advantage. Plus, in a PvE game, who cares about advantages. In fact, i would like people, whom i group with, have good gear.
Since when do you roll over when a developer claims that buying packages of in-game gold from their cash shop for RL currency is NOT considered cheating simply because they say it isn't?
It is based on perspective, and from the perspective of a gamer who has been playing MMOs & games in general it IS cheating. Saying otherwise is just arguing for the sake of it rather than trying to prove a point.
You mean, it is cheating .. based on YOUR perspective. So what? Others don't play games based on YOUR perspective.
The developer makes the game, they make the rules. Pretty basic. Don't like the rules, don't play it. Again, pretty basic. Saying it's cheating is absurd. Their game, their rules. Like I said - don't like, don't play it. No amount of bitching is going to change the rules unless no one plays said game. But if people enjoy spending the cash to get ahead, and it's enough to keep the developer going, I'd say the developer must have done something right. They don't make the game to cater to people who are unwilling to fork out any money for their game and feel entitled to a great, 100% F2P experience. Where's the profit in that? And yes, these companies hope to make a profit. It's called a "business."
He is not even arguing whether the game should offer a 100% free F2P experience. His argument is whether or not buying an advantage in game is morally right or wrong. It is a completely subjective thing and is entirely based on a person's opinion. The problem is that your logic and kaiser's attempts to validate the P2W business model as morally acceptable are complete failures at best.
F2P has changed a lot. Its going to be the standard for Online gaming in the near future. I use to hate F2P games just like the majority of mmorpg.com users due to most F2P games being total crap. Then I played League of Legends and discovered a quality game with quality devs and support that is *gasp* free to play.
The F2P market is becoming saturated. Publishers are realizing that they can no longer sustain with cheap, crappy F2P korean grinders (and anything similar).
We are actually at a really good point for online gaming because there will soon be a big rise in free to play titles that have high quality and support. And the "pay to win" method is dissolving from publisher and developer's minds.
Its being replaced by the idea that attracting a huge playerbase who pays in small increments but stays for months, if not years, is more lucrative then a very small player base with a very small percentage of high spenders.
This! A thousand times this!
The way I look at it, F2P had some issues in the beginning because producers and developers didn't really know how to handle it, so they made a bit of a mess of things by including loads of power items and overcharging for them. Thye seem to be learning their lesson and moving on from this idea, realising that short term is nothing compared to medium or long term success. the only block we still have in place is that this isn't the same mindframe in all regions. Lete me give you an example:
I play Allods Online currently, but I didn't when the Gipat patch hit that was supposed to have been awful by all accounts, it certainly sounds it anyway. Since then however the vast majority of things that they introduced have been taken out of the game and with currency converters it's actually pretty free to play. The only gripe remaining is that there still are power items in the game, but they aren't as OP as some of the old players remember and still suggest.
Example is that it's pretty easy to get Level 5 runes without paying a cent, involves in-game work but I'm okay with that. The average level rune on EU is 6-7 tops, I'd actually say it's probably 5, but even if it's 7 the difference between a Level 5 Rune and a Level 7 Rune is about 6% power. Again, not ideal but not gamebreaking imo and gPotato actually seem to listen to us (they kept out Patronage 5 and OP Battle Mounts because we asked them to basically). So they seem to understand that people don't want what the devs are able to introduce to the Russian game (where they are from) but that also seems to be the last stumbling block. The Russian market seems perfectly happy with these items and spending real cash on them so the developers probably think it should be okay to add them to EU. So, along with producers changing their mindframe the developers from other regions need to realise that each region is different in what they find acceptable and they need to tailor the game to suit our needs.
Once that is in place F2P will be just fine and would be preferrable to B2P deinitely
The developer makes the game, they make the rules. Pretty basic. Don't like the rules, don't play it. Again, pretty basic. Saying it's cheating is absurd. Their game, their rules. Like I said - don't like, don't play it. No amount of bitching is going to change the rules unless no one plays said game. But if people enjoy spending the cash to get ahead, and it's enough to keep the developer going, I'd say the developer must have done something right. They don't make the game to cater to people who are unwilling to fork out any money for their game and feel entitled to a great, 100% F2P experience. Where's the profit in that? And yes, these companies hope to make a profit. It's called a "business."
He is not even arguing whether the game should offer a 100% free F2P experience. His argument is whether or not buying an advantage in game is morally right or wrong. It is a completely subjective thing and is entirely based on a person's opinion. The problem is that your logic and kaiser's attempts to validate the P2W business model as morally acceptable are complete failures at best.
Your boss says it is ok to rape your coworkers so that makes it ok. Doesn't sound like very good logic to me.
Congrats on having the most absurd reply today. You use rape to justify your arguement? Really? You're comparing P2W with rape, as if they're on the same level? What's next, Holocaust comparisons?
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
I don't know.. I did enjoy Age of Conan quite a lot for about 3 months after it went F2P without paying anything for it (well, I did pay for it at release, but lasted less than 2 months on it back then when it was P2P)
And do you feel that experience carries over to other F2P games?
I'd say the ones I've played, yep, it does carry over (Runes of Magic, LotRO, DDO, Champions Online). That said, it might have helped that I didn't play every F2P title out there (I do believe there are lots of craptastic ones, even more than in the P2P world, and I bet lots of people might even say the ones I named are crap as well) but the ones that were recommended as good by friends or read about on forums.
Congrats on having the most absurd reply today. You use rape to justify your arguement? Really? You're comparing P2W with rape, as if they're on the same level? What's next, Holocaust comparisons?
Again you completely missed the point. If a developer/publisher supports allowing players to purchase advantages, then it still doesn't make it morally ok. It just means your account won't recieve repurcussions for choosing to do so.
At least I know you can see the absurdity in poor logic, even if you failed to make the connection.
Personally I like the estern free to play model. You can chose if you want to play a sub when you hit "the wall" or you can pay small mirotranstactions if you dont play often . I do however prefer buy to play and I hope more games follow GW2 rather than change to free to play when subs start to fall which is what happend with TOR .
Congrats on having the most absurd reply today. You use rape to justify your arguement? Really? You're comparing P2W with rape, as if they're on the same level? What's next, Holocaust comparisons?
Again you completely missed the point. If a developer/publisher supports allowing players to purchase advantages, then it still doesn't make it morally ok. It just means your account won't recieve repurcussions for choosing to do so.
At least I know you can see the absurdity in poor logic, even if you failed to make the connection.
I think if you tried using an example that wasn't a violation of real life laws in most countries you'd have a better understanding of why your example is extreme to the point of not only absurdity but irrelevance.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Your example you have been better if i was paying to make you worse. Rape hurts others whether it is legal or not. P2w does not directly hurt others it just makes me better off.
Again you completely missed the point. If a developer/publisher supports allowing players to purchase advantages, then it still doesn't make it morally ok. It just means your account won't recieve repurcussions for choosing to do so.
Morally ok? We are talking about games here. Moral is subjective and based on opinion anyway. It is pretty absurb to apply morality to GAMES.
So MANY devs are ok with cash shops, RMT, and what-not .. what are you going to do? Pray to a higher authority and strike them down?
Morally ok? We are talking about games here. Moral is subjective and based on opinion anyway. It is pretty absurb to apply morality to GAMES.
Especially when he has no moral issue with gameplay centered entirely around genocide for profit. It's when that genocide for profit is done with weapons that one didn't personally toil for and earn that it is morally reprehensible and akin to rape.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by kevjards ofc its a business generator..how would these games survive otherwise?
Well thats like saying they could not have survived in the past with the old model, and with current techology it is required for survival that products need to be gimmicky in nature and be of lower quality.......
I can understand your statement if the cost of new innovation and improvements in quality is creating a vaccum that require a rise in cost to provide, but we are not seeing that........
lets assume this statement in yellow applies to F2P mmos only (most subscription supporters claim the same but using other words), then why on earth all the latest subscription developers are also applying that theory to their mmos and are still charging box + monthly + cash shop + expansion?
I dont want to sound weird but if a subscription really makes quality then i would go back to WoW because nothing post WoW has P2P quality. Some have had potential but still not enough. Its just my personal opinion on the subject. I prefer B2P and now more than ever since GW2 is showing the subs are not really necessary to have quality mmo
Morally ok? We are talking about games here. Moral is subjective and based on opinion anyway. It is pretty absurb to apply morality to GAMES.
Especially when he has no moral issue with gameplay centered entirely around genocide for profit. It's when that genocide for profit is done with weapons that one didn't personally toil for and earn that it is morally reprehensible and akin to rape.
hahahah ... yeah.
In fact, players are pretty much murderers and thieves in most MMO game worlds.
Comments
Name ONE product made from the ground up that is "good" that was built for F2P. Please, name just one!
They're all horribly low quality, and there is a reason they are not sub-based.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Bite Me
See, you learn something new every day
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I don't know.. I did enjoy Age of Conan quite a lot for about 3 months after it went F2P without paying anything for it (well, I did pay for it at release, but lasted less than 2 months on it back then when it was P2P)
What can men do against such reckless hate?
And do you feel that experience carries over to other F2P games?
Putting an overpowered item in a shop that you can only access with cash is pay2win. Locking out free players from obtaining power by putting it in a shop only is pay2win...
Having items in a shop that is also available through normal gameplay IS NOT PAY2WIN!
Show me one item that gives someone a power advantage in PS2 that i can't also obtain through gameplay.
Your pay2win argument holds no wieght... same as the newbs that say Tribes is Pay2win. If everything that increases player power is obtainable through gameplay a game isnt pay2win... sorry.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Funny thing about cheating. Since when do you as an individual player determine the rules of an entire game? The developers decide the rules, not you.
On the subject of "earning" things. Sitting at a keyboard pressing keys a few hours a day vs working hard for the money you spent to buy the stuff... who actually "earned" something?
For me the payment model is really a non factor. There are good F2P games out there with reasonable in game shops that generally look to trade on the old adage money=time. There are also alot of bad F2P titles out there. Same goes for the subscription based games there are a few good ones but there are also alot of bad ones.
The reason I like F2P is simple I get to choose how much money I decide to spend over a given period of time so if I'm not going to play much one month I can still play the game but I don't neccarily have to pay for it where as with a subscription it doesn't matter if I play for an hour a day or if a play for 8 hours a day I'm still paying the subscription. The fact that most subscription games also have a cash shop seems alot like double dipping scammy practice than a straight cash shop at least to me.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
Since when do you roll over when a developer claims that buying packages of in-game gold from their cash shop for RL currency is NOT considered cheating simply because they say it isn't?
It is based on perspective, and from the perspective of a gamer who has been playing MMOs & games in general it IS cheating. Saying otherwise is just arguing for the sake of it rather than trying to prove a point.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Its not "rolling over". Its a simple fact. They made the game, and they determine the rules. Not you.
Since you mentioned perspective, lets use that. Some people would also argue that if an exploit exists, they should be allowed to use it, and it is the devs fault, not theirs. Would you agree with them? If not, why not? After all, thats their own perspective, and it seems you think players determine the rules and not the developers. So should developers just ignore these people and let them continue playing because those players have a different point of view than them?
Sounds pretty stupid doesnt it?
Im telling you this fromt he perspective of someone who has been gaming since age 5 (25 years of gaing now), playing MMOs for over a decade, and who has also been a head GM, admin, and dev. The staff determines the rules, not the players. You not liking it doesnt change that fact. You can simply choose not to play F2P games, and thats fine, but it wont change a thing.
The developer makes the game, they make the rules. Pretty basic. Don't like the rules, don't play it. Again, pretty basic. Saying it's cheating is absurd. Their game, their rules. Like I said - don't like, don't play it. No amount of bitching is going to change the rules unless no one plays said game. But if people enjoy spending the cash to get ahead, and it's enough to keep the developer going, I'd say the developer must have done something right. They don't make the game to cater to people who are unwilling to fork out any money for their game and feel entitled to a great, 100% F2P experience. Where's the profit in that? And yes, these companies hope to make a profit. It's called a "business."
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
So what? I think it is pretty fair that someone who is subsidizing my game is getting a bit of an advantage. Plus, in a PvE game, who cares about advantages. In fact, i would like people, whom i group with, have good gear.
You mean, it is cheating .. based on YOUR perspective. So what? Others don't play games based on YOUR perspective.
He is not even arguing whether the game should offer a 100% free F2P experience. His argument is whether or not buying an advantage in game is morally right or wrong. It is a completely subjective thing and is entirely based on a person's opinion. The problem is that your logic and kaiser's attempts to validate the P2W business model as morally acceptable are complete failures at best.
[mod edit]
This! A thousand times this!
The way I look at it, F2P had some issues in the beginning because producers and developers didn't really know how to handle it, so they made a bit of a mess of things by including loads of power items and overcharging for them. Thye seem to be learning their lesson and moving on from this idea, realising that short term is nothing compared to medium or long term success. the only block we still have in place is that this isn't the same mindframe in all regions. Lete me give you an example:
I play Allods Online currently, but I didn't when the Gipat patch hit that was supposed to have been awful by all accounts, it certainly sounds it anyway. Since then however the vast majority of things that they introduced have been taken out of the game and with currency converters it's actually pretty free to play. The only gripe remaining is that there still are power items in the game, but they aren't as OP as some of the old players remember and still suggest.
Example is that it's pretty easy to get Level 5 runes without paying a cent, involves in-game work but I'm okay with that. The average level rune on EU is 6-7 tops, I'd actually say it's probably 5, but even if it's 7 the difference between a Level 5 Rune and a Level 7 Rune is about 6% power. Again, not ideal but not gamebreaking imo and gPotato actually seem to listen to us (they kept out Patronage 5 and OP Battle Mounts because we asked them to basically). So they seem to understand that people don't want what the devs are able to introduce to the Russian game (where they are from) but that also seems to be the last stumbling block. The Russian market seems perfectly happy with these items and spending real cash on them so the developers probably think it should be okay to add them to EU. So, along with producers changing their mindframe the developers from other regions need to realise that each region is different in what they find acceptable and they need to tailor the game to suit our needs.
Once that is in place F2P will be just fine and would be preferrable to B2P deinitely
Congrats on having the most absurd reply today. You use rape to justify your arguement? Really? You're comparing P2W with rape, as if they're on the same level? What's next, Holocaust comparisons?
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
I'd say the ones I've played, yep, it does carry over (Runes of Magic, LotRO, DDO, Champions Online). That said, it might have helped that I didn't play every F2P title out there (I do believe there are lots of craptastic ones, even more than in the P2P world, and I bet lots of people might even say the ones I named are crap as well) but the ones that were recommended as good by friends or read about on forums.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
Again you completely missed the point. If a developer/publisher supports allowing players to purchase advantages, then it still doesn't make it morally ok. It just means your account won't recieve repurcussions for choosing to do so.
At least I know you can see the absurdity in poor logic, even if you failed to make the connection.
I think if you tried using an example that wasn't a violation of real life laws in most countries you'd have a better understanding of why your example is extreme to the point of not only absurdity but irrelevance.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Morally ok? We are talking about games here. Moral is subjective and based on opinion anyway. It is pretty absurb to apply morality to GAMES.
So MANY devs are ok with cash shops, RMT, and what-not .. what are you going to do? Pray to a higher authority and strike them down?
Especially when he has no moral issue with gameplay centered entirely around genocide for profit. It's when that genocide for profit is done with weapons that one didn't personally toil for and earn that it is morally reprehensible and akin to rape.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
lets assume this statement in yellow applies to F2P mmos only (most subscription supporters claim the same but using other words), then why on earth all the latest subscription developers are also applying that theory to their mmos and are still charging box + monthly + cash shop + expansion?
I dont want to sound weird but if a subscription really makes quality then i would go back to WoW because nothing post WoW has P2P quality. Some have had potential but still not enough. Its just my personal opinion on the subject. I prefer B2P and now more than ever since GW2 is showing the subs are not really necessary to have quality mmo
hahahah ... yeah.
In fact, players are pretty much murderers and thieves in most MMO game worlds.