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PvE server for darkfall UW?
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Maybe.. Trammel was implemented in what..2000 or 2001? UO still went on pretty strong until around 2004 I think so it didnt have a negative impact from what I remember. It was more or less games like EQ , DAoC and then WoW that just chipped away at it along with being a 2D game among 3D games.
My thought still stands that with some sort of consentual pvp server / setup DF would probably pick up many players. It doesnt even have to be a straight PvE server but one with guild / alliance wars and seiges. Would keep the ganking to a minimum but offer plenty of PvP to those that want it.. Meh. Dont care one way or the other.
No. Having been in UO pre Trammel, the ganking and griefing was getting way out of hand. Lots of people leaving, really forced their hand. Absent Trammel, I doubt UO would still be in operation. The modern western audience has changed. The majority will not tolerate a game that allows (let alone encourages) ganking and griefing. That in and of itself, limits such a game to a niche market.
If you place any credence in online data, then the actual numbers were increasing throughout the pre Tram era, at a steady rate. There is no evidence (outside of anecdotal that is) to presume that the game would have died off had Tram not happened. Moreoever, there were other steps to take to reduce rampant pking, other than completely splitting the community. Tram was akin to using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.
You will also note that regardless as to whether Tram had occured or not, the game would have been considered "niche" for many, many a year now anyway. Unless we are saying 2D isometric sandboxes are de rigueur in the mmo world?
I am not suggesting that the game wouldn't have had to be "altered" over time, or that ffa pvp would ever be mainstream. Nor am I suggesting that you never saw people leave. But to suggest that without Tram, UO would have died off years ago is pure conjecture.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
You make some good points. I agree that both positions are only speculation at this late date, and that I have an inherent bias, that may be coloring my analysis. Looking back on my experiences, I had a number of contacts/friends that left because of it. I've also heard the same from others. But attempting to over generalize from that, would indeed be a mistake.
I don't believe there needs to be a PvE server. I do believe they will add wider range of safe spots... as a matter of fact I know they will.
My sentiments exactly, Ice. Unfortunately, with a tiny--relatively unskilled--dev team like AV, I think we are setting the bar too high when we assume UW will be even half of what they are claiming it will be.
If they were unskilled they wouldn't have been able to make the first MMO engine capable of full real time combat without zones or instances... and the past 3 expansions they've released have all had what they said it'd have, so... chances are good.
DanesLaw
DF Dev Tracker
It did fail based on what they could have achieved. I am certain that a huge percentage of the people whoe tried DF, have quit. That is a massive failure. When you are in development for as long as DF was and had been released for as long as it is, then the developers decide to scrap their original and create a new game because of how many flaws and mistakes they made, that is a failure. I fail from time to time at things, I don't die from my mistakes, but that doesn't mean they weren't failures. Understand?
It's a niche game and a failure because it could be so much more. I personally believe the PvE server idea is a bag one. However, one of the main reasons that DF is a falure is because they are focusing too much on PvP. Games like UO and SWG survives and thrived because they were more of an open world fantasy simulator than a large PvP arena. THeir focus was allowing all play styles to exist and succeed in their game. They understood that PvP is going to happen, no matter thhe penalty. DF embraces and caters to people being jackasses and ruining the gaming experience of others, and that's why you'll never have a healthy playerbase similar to other games out there. It's not because it's 'niche', or because it's a sandbox. It's because they are focusing on the wrong aspect of the game.
It's always been like that and it likely always will. And for that reason, DF will never be as good as it could be.
People like you only see the world in black and white.
Nice credentials. But I've been playing sandbox MMO's since Ultima Online. And I actually say it would work based on past experiences and successes.
I've also played DF.
You have item durability and everyone can craft anything that they want. You will still lose your items from PvE encounters from time to time as well. So while the rapid change of hands will not be as significant when in comes to your gear, there will still be ways to lose them. In order to make the ocean forts and villages useful, you put a bunch of NPC's in there and turn it into a clan raid spot for resources and loot. You wouldn't need to change much at all. It would likely bring a ton of people to the game and it wouldn't affect any of the current players because it would be on a separate PvE server.
It would take precious development time and money away from the main version of the game, and it just wouldn't be very good. People would get bored pretty quickly once they've gotten good enough to kill the highest level mobs. And without any kind of PvP nothing stops players from just zerging every encounter. There would be no way to stop people from griefing by blocking things off.
So many aspects of the game would have to be rewritten to make it viable, and that's time that the loyal current Darkfall players wouldn't be getting any content or patches.
Please explain your brilliant idea.
By turning off damage to other players, you eliminate PvP altogether. There is no way around not being able to do damage to other players. That change is pretty final. Sure, could you train mobs into people? Absolutely. That isn't really PvP. That has been in MMO's since the beginning of MMO's.
Those two games also had huge teams of experienced developers with big budgets behind them. Darkfall did not.
And a large percentage of people quit EVERY MMO.
I'd hardly call Darkfall a failure considering it made enough profit to raise a second server and hire 30 new devs. You don't do that when you're a "failure".
Like what? Don't just make a statement and not explain it. What part of the game would need re-written? Again, other than the PvP structures in certain parts of the world. Making the game PvE would take very little time. And yes, you are right, people would get bored. Kind of like how they are now, only running around and killing each other because there is nothing to do. Which is the whole point of a sandbox, to have the tools to do as you wish. They focus on PvP and end up getting a PvE arena, what a surprise. Instead of focusing on altername play styles and sandbox features to create more potential content for the players.
But really, are you using that as an axcuse? The fact that people get bored? Name an MMO where you have never been bored. You can't.
Uhh... the part I just explained above.
And yeah, being bad is a pretty good excuse not to do something. AV is such a small studio they can barely manage one game, much less two. It would make BOTH products suffer from lack of focus and resources. Don't bother doing something if you're going to half ass it.
Holy cows batman! DF has TWO servers and less than ten thousand active subscriptions and it's not a failure? Are you as ignorant as you appear to be? First off, I said Darkfall is a failure based on what it COULD have achieved. Reading comprehension FTL I guess. Darkfall, if designed correctly, could have hundreds of thousands of players currently. And what part of deciding that your game cannot be fixed because you failed making it the first time is not a failure to you? No crap, a large percentage of people quit every MMO. My point, which clearly eluded your stunning intellect, was that, that percentage is likely larger than most games. Not only that, when you are a NICHE game and you can't draw in NICHE fans, don't you see a problem in that? Wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that there is a failure somewhere down the line when you can't bring in fans of the genre that you made a MMO for? No?
It's so mind-boggling as to how DF supporters can continue to defend their game and the company who made it years after launch, AND after the company itself admits to it's own FAILURE. I mean, really dude? Take off the blinders and call it for what it is. DF:UW will do little in the way of bringing new players to the game in the end. It will keep existing players happy, and perhaps a few more subs will be made.
They get kudos for actually admitting to their failures and taking a huge risk to fix some of their mistakes. I do not give kudos to people who can't face facts when they are being smacked in the face over and over with it.
You didn't explain anything. You said people would zerg encounters. Okay, make the encounters harder? It doesn't take much talent to adjust statistics on NPC mobs. Man, that was easy to fix your huge problem. Didn't expect that did you? Weird.
Growth, expansion, and profit are objective idicators of success. Success is the opposite of failure.
/thread.
I think you are confusing potential and success. Darkfall is the best game I have played by a long long way since UO. That is categorically not a failure, calling a game a failure when what I feel is mirrored by so many others is mind-boggling. It could, however, have been even better and it could have appealed/not put off many more people. That is why they made DF:UW.
DanesLaw
DF Dev Tracker
Falesh is my hero and I love him!!
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
I love the pve in Darkfall, its tough. There is always the fear of getting ganked. You can't find a rush like that in any pve game or on any pve server.
I am horrible at the pvp in darkfall. That being said, I wouldn't change a thing. The way the game is set up makes it fun and exciting for the DF carebear such as myself. The risk of losing everything you work for adds to the entertainment value of the game.
Finding a way to make the money and craft the things others need in an extreme enviroment..there is nothing like it. If only every carebear experience was like that.
Although sandbox and PvP are not synonimous with one another I do respect AV and DF fans for wanting their game to stay true to itself. I'm sure they know a PvE server would bring in more revenue but they may also lose fans in the process. One person said play Vanguard which I would agree has a close feeling to it and oh how I wish VG had an open skill based system.
I hope DF:UW turns out great as it's a unique title and calls for a dedicated fanbase.