I agree, he is not burnt out. It is just that GW 2 is not all that good and ThemeParks in general are not made to last. They are like fastfood, good to pick up now and then but not something for the long haul. 1-3 months is probably what you can squeeze out of a ThemePark, then the dev. created content thins out and there is not much else to do beside moving on.
I have been reading many of your guys posts for a long time now you guys are burnt out on themeparks you can admit it to yourself or not... obviously GW2 longevity will not appeal to everyone just as Rifts or EVE or any other games longevity will not appeal to everyone as everyone has differn't ideals in what they find fun for long periods of time
True, it does depend on the individual but what systems inherent in GW2 really promote longevity? Not trolling btw.
I can dislike a game and yet still appreciate the fact that it offers dynamic systems/longevity. Likewise I can really enjoy a game but find it offers zero longer term hook.
Some types of games are simply not built for longevity, which is why we see sequels in the non mmo game genres. The funny thing is the mmo market is trying to promote the kind of gameplay focus we see in the offline gaming space, i.e. short life span, low retention, sequel galore space.
Great for accessibilty, polish, user friendliness and the like. Rubbish for longevity unless you whack in a fking great long carrot grind and no one is going to do that carrot grind when WoW owns the market in carrot grinds.
for me PVP, huge world to explore, multiple branching stories, classes that all have unique playstyles all add to the longevity for me.. i'm playing 3 classes in PVE currently and each has had a very differn't play and experience through my playthrough.. i also use my other slots as PVP exclusive characters for now but want to try to hit 80 with each race...I enjoy WvW and sPVP and while I think they both need ot be more fleshed out they both provide a much better foundation imho than all the other themeparks out right now
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Istavaan the people hating guild wars 2 will be leaving to catch the elder scrolls online hate train..these people hate everything and find fun in nothing.
I love alot of MMO's...
Anarchy Online
Age of Conan
TSW
Rift
WoW
Fallen Earth
Ryzom
But that doesnt mean I cant hate some either...blindly hate...then Ive got a problem....but GW2 is very easy to dislike. It has design flaws out the wazoo that cripple it from being a "fleshed out masterpiece" and, in turn, becoming a "generic johnny come lately"
btw...ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST!!
hows the quest to 80 btw?
I hit a snag at 16, but will push on....actually, been REALLY busy with RL...wife went away for a few days and I got the kids to myself, so haven't had a chance to get on.
I've also grown frustrated for how weak I feel. The pace of combat was so much better at earlier levels. I had this problem MAJOR bad with TOR - fights just take too long for no reason. It doesn't make me feel like a "hero" when I can't cut through swaths of baddies with ease.
Sure, I like having elite/champion/veteran mobs that take a bit of effort to kill. That's fun. But I don't like feeling like I'm hitting with a wet noodle against normal mobs. TOR made this mistake BIG time, and the only MMO where I never felt this way - is WoW.
I'm sorry if I concentrate on off-topic here, but since you mentioned it I just have to give some credit to TOR. The fights against single weak enemies does not take long. The whole point in TOR to send a pack of weak mobs at you is that you can cut them down quickly, and that's what you indeed can do. They die in just a few blows. Weak mobs in GW2 at least for me die almost as quick too, with the difference that in TOR you can fight a pack, but if you pull a lot of mobs in GW2 you'll die quick.
<> but I have yet to press ANY button in any class at any level in GW2 where I felt like "Wow, I love this ability it is so freaking cool and awesome."
Pretty much sums up how I felt about the game as a whole: Ho-hum.
3. No kill stealing, everyone gets loot, never a bad idea to help another player, cross-profession combos with anyone outside of grouping etc. is awesome and a huge, huge step forward in PvE.
I liked some of the ideas. Some of them seemed overly carebear in their nature. Which caused a reaction inside me, opposite to what the devs were aiming for.
I've hit MMORPG rock bottom.
We kind of all have. But I'll keep searching. Like back when I used to play other games, I kind of got bored of them and their genre and never thought I'd ever find something else like them. How was I wrong! Years may have passed, and seemingly out of the blue something smacks me up the head and I fall head over heels once again.
This is BadSpock, signing off...
How about keeping it cool? Next time you want to cheerlead for another title.
I have to say I agree with just about everything you said Spock. The few points I wasn't with you on, I could easily see your POV. I happen to play a lot less than I anticipated because my time is delegated in other areas but I have started to draw the same conclusions. The concerns I expressed while the game was in development have become a reality. I still play the game when time permits, but I don't find myself anticipating my next log-in. Still a great game and I plan on popping in and I still find plenty of enjoyment.
I understand you points Spock. thusly. WoW is just a few (ten) expansions away, ye that direction>
You are an offspring of the 21st generation, thusly you've no idea how far we've come, so you could honestly keep your opinions to yourself.
I've already QUIT GW2 for a lack of better words, but i still feel you are wrongly judging the game, compared to shit that's been shoved down peoples throats for the last DECADE, GW2 is a breath of fresh air in this atrocity of "industry"!
I agree with the OP about Orr. It is either in a karma farm group running from event to event or on your own which feels like a chore. Risen are so annoying to fight imo. And what doesn't help are their silly comedy capers animations. The areas look awesome though, it really shows that it was all those years underneath the sea. But I just hate Risen.
Halloween event so far has been disappointing too. Seems just a bunch of achievements you can complete. I don't care about those orange bars. I hoped for a fun instanced questchain like personal story. The goosechase they send you on, is just some maptravel. The costumebrawl is fun for a minute or so and maybe a little longer with some of the better costumes which are clearly overpowered.
So I'm mainly busy grouping with guildies in areas that don't contain too many Risen and basically ignoring the halloween stuff. This is still a lot of fun though. But I also wonder how long this lasts. We really can use some new high lvl areas that don't have Risen
People "look back" to traditional sandbox games/mechanics/features because they promoted natural player community dynamics and offered freedom. Those of use often castigated for just wanting a rehash of UO are actually seeking games which provide the same ethos of community driven dynamics, longevity and player freedom within a persistent and dynamic game world.
If you can do that via other methods and mechanics, go for it.
The thing is though recently the emphasis has been 99.99% on accessibility, parity and carrot grinds, something other gaming genres offer.
Sadly, even with EQ Next, Unholy Wars, WoD et al coming up, I really, really can't see the genre gettting back to that ethos of longevity, community and freedom though (outside of indieville).
To some degree yes.
However, times are VERY different now. The mentallity most players had back then, is much different from the ones we have now. In the 'golden days' of MMOs, people were more interested in exploring this new form of gaming. It was more social, but it wasn't always due to game design. It was because things were still new, and players were much more willing to work together trying to figure out this new type of game. It was still a fronteir to explore. Games were also a lot more simple back then. They didn't have as many features, as big of a world, combat was generally fairly simple as well, inspite having a large skillset.
People now expect WAY more from an MMO than what we had back then. The shining example of sandbox atm, is still Eve. It's the only sandbox MMO still going strong. Yet it still doesn't have the same numbers as most of the themeparks. Just being a sandbox isn't going to be enough. Even if we were to bring back UO with modern graphics, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't enough for most players.
Wait what? Eve has more than 350.000 subs and have been over 300.000 for years. There are only two sub-based MMOs which can best that and that is WoW and Aion and the latter one is F2P hybrid. All other ThemeParks have dwindling subs. such as TERA, Secret World, WAR, AoC, DCU and even SW:TOR has drastically lost subs and is headed for F2P.
If anything Eve shows that there is a demand for sandbox games and not like ThemeParks where they only stay for a few months but rather years. Ofcourse that does not mean a UO copy would be automatically a success, games have evolved since then and ofcourse sandbox MMOs need to also evolve. And imo it is the future of MMO', ThemeParks will soon all go the F2P route and it will only be sandbox MMO's which can provide the reason to sub to an MMO because they will have longetivity, ThemeParks do not.
So out of a ball park figure of say 20 million folks having played some sort of mmo since 2004 ...you are promoting a game style that has been able to sustain a population of 350 k ? I'm sorry your theory of a sandbox MMO providing anything close to a reason for paying a sub or longevity is just "pipe dream" at best ...sorry bud forums wars for the next 5 years isn't the path most folks want to take .
At least I can respect this guys opinion on the game.
However, WvWvW is not pointless. It is very fun with a good group/guild that takes it serious and tries to come out on top as the best server week in and week out. War is a zerg my friend so get used to the zerging.
I don't think people are burned out on MMOs (some are of course), just sick of how each new game is shallower than the next. I know at least I want some depth brought back into MMOs. I've said it before, the games use to have 4 or 5 roles, then down to a trinity, then 2 and even 1.
Everyone can do everything! And everyone gets a prize just for showing up! Bleh. Next probably just get gear for having a character made, lol.
Also, the games don't need to be raid based, hardcore gear progression to work, but there has to be something to keep people wanting to play. Even in EQ, many people didn't really do the top raiding and were happy to group and kill crap. They still got gear, but the AAs they got helped them progress even further, customize their characters more. Same with RAs in daoc.
Even WoW has been simplified, which is probably part of the reason they keep bleeding subs. Sure it went up with MOP, but most likely start to go down again because it is even more simplified than ever.
For a while I thought I was burned out on MMOs, because every new game I tried didn't last. Then I went back to old ones I use to play and sustained longer play periods than I have in any game post WoW.
However, times are VERY different now. The mentallity most players had back then, is much different from the ones we have now. In the 'golden days' of MMOs, people were more interested in exploring this new form of gaming. It was more social, but it wasn't always due to game design. It was because things were still new, and players were much more willing to work together trying to figure out this new type of game. It was still a fronteir to explore. Games were also a lot more simple back then. They didn't have as many features, as big of a world, combat was generally fairly simple as well, inspite having a large skillset.
People now expect WAY more from an MMO than what we had back then. The shining example of sandbox atm, is still Eve. It's the only sandbox MMO still going strong. Yet it still doesn't have the same numbers as most of the themeparks. Just being a sandbox isn't going to be enough. Even if we were to bring back UO with modern graphics, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't enough for most players.
Wait what? Eve has more than 350.000 subs and have been over 300.000 for years. There are only two sub-based MMOs which can best that and that is WoW and Aion and the latter one is F2P hybrid. All other ThemeParks have dwindling subs. such as TERA, Secret World, WAR, AoC, DCU and even SW:TOR has drastically lost subs and is headed for F2P.
If anything Eve shows that there is a demand for sandbox games and not like ThemeParks where they only stay for a few months but rather years. Ofcourse that does not mean a UO copy would be automatically a success, games have evolved since then and ofcourse sandbox MMOs need to also evolve. And imo it is the future of MMO', ThemeParks will soon all go the F2P route and it will only be sandbox MMO's which can provide the reason to sub to an MMO because they will have longetivity, ThemeParks do not.
Correct. ~350k subs.
Again, 350k subs for the current 'shining example' of sandbox MMOs. This is the most successful game you can point to when referencing a sandbox atm.
As for games that can best that, if you limit it to current subscription models. You have WoW, and Aion, yes. While it's hard to know which numbers to trust, SWTOR also seems to meet that mark (though barely). If you expand your themeparks out of 'sub only' models, you will also find yet more games that meet that population marker.
However, if you were to look within the 'true sandbox' category of MMO. What's the next highest sandbox MMO's population?
You expressed much of how I felt recently with GW2, Spock. But I did go in not expecting any longevity, so I'm not leaving with any disappointment. I had some fun and felt it was worth the money spent. I felt the same way you did about feeling weaker as I got higher level, especially in the 70+ areas. I forced myself to reach 80, but didn't enjoy a moment of the final stretch, especially not being able to take two steps without being attacked in Orr. And once I dinged, I just stopped logging in.
A lot of charm in the world, and I appreciate the love ANet poured into the game. But as others have said, we each enjoy different game styles and I expect GW2 to continue to do well even though it wasn't for me. So back to my old MMO.
for me PVP, huge world to explore, multiple branching stories, classes that all have unique playstyles all add to the longevity for me.. i'm playing 3 classes in PVE currently and each has had a very differn't play and experience through my playthrough.. i also use my other slots as PVP exclusive characters for now but want to try to hit 80 with each race...I enjoy WvW and sPVP and while I think they both need ot be more fleshed out they both provide a much better foundation imho than all the other themeparks out right now
I'm glad you clearly love it but I am not seeing any real viable longer term mechanics there (not saying you are wrong ofc).
Doing the same stuff over again on an alt doesn't seem like a great form of longevity to me personally. Nor does pvp that has zero connect with the game world, when I can get (to my mind) a superior version of it in dedicated pvp games.
For me some mechanics which promote longevtiy (outside of gear/score grinds) in an mmo would be:
(I) Direct investment and engagement with the game world on a persistent basis. Putting down buildings, controlling territories.
(II) Dynamic content within the game world, i.e. player driven mechanisms meaning that when I log in, the political, territorial and physical landscape of the game world might be different from when I last logged in and may stay that way unless I, or others do something about it.
(III) A close knit player community. Knowing your friends and enemies on the server, not just the people in your guild and treating most others like ships that pass in the night.
Those three can be achieved via a variety of mechanics, but instead we see rinse and repeat content and accessibilty pushed as the prime gameplay features.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
However, times are VERY different now. The mentallity most players had back then, is much different from the ones we have now. In the 'golden days' of MMOs, people were more interested in exploring this new form of gaming. It was more social, but it wasn't always due to game design. It was because things were still new, and players were much more willing to work together trying to figure out this new type of game. It was still a fronteir to explore. Games were also a lot more simple back then. They didn't have as many features, as big of a world, combat was generally fairly simple as well, inspite having a large skillset.
People now expect WAY more from an MMO than what we had back then. The shining example of sandbox atm, is still Eve. It's the only sandbox MMO still going strong. Yet it still doesn't have the same numbers as most of the themeparks. Just being a sandbox isn't going to be enough. Even if we were to bring back UO with modern graphics, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't enough for most players.
Wait what? Eve has more than 350.000 subs and have been over 300.000 for years. There are only two sub-based MMOs which can best that and that is WoW and Aion and the latter one is F2P hybrid. All other ThemeParks have dwindling subs. such as TERA, Secret World, WAR, AoC, DCU and even SW:TOR has drastically lost subs and is headed for F2P.
If anything Eve shows that there is a demand for sandbox games and not like ThemeParks where they only stay for a few months but rather years. Ofcourse that does not mean a UO copy would be automatically a success, games have evolved since then and ofcourse sandbox MMOs need to also evolve. And imo it is the future of MMO', ThemeParks will soon all go the F2P route and it will only be sandbox MMO's which can provide the reason to sub to an MMO because they will have longetivity, ThemeParks do not.
Correct. ~350k subs.
Again, 350k subs for the current 'shining example' of sandbox MMOs. This is the most successful game you can point to when referencing a sandbox atm.
As for games that can best that, if you limit it to current subscription models. You have WoW, and Aion, yes. While it's hard to know which numbers to trust, SWTOR also seems to meet that mark (though barely). If you expand your themeparks out of 'sub only' models, you will also find yet more games that meet that population marker.
However, if you were to look within the 'true sandbox' category of MMO. What's the next highest sandbox MMO's population?
Not for nothing but your whole preseption on the subject is warped at best. as much as i would like to point out to you why, Its been done 100 times before in a 100 other threads.
Just fyi... 350k subs for a sandbox game that old should be all the info you need.
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Not for nothing but your whole preseption on the subject is warped at best. as much as i would like to point out to you why, Its been done 100 times before in a 100 other threads.
Just fyi... 350k subs for a sandbox game that old should be all the info you need.
So.. 350k subs for a sandbox game that old is all the info we need. But 9million for a themepark game even older is irrelevant.
Got it, guess I really do have a warped sense of perspective.
I probably shouldn't bring up some of the other themeparks that have also been out for a while (though not quite as long as Eve). If you look at some of the graphs (like MMOData) you may notice a trend. There are no sandboxes over 1mil subs. There is only 1 sandbox over 150k subs, and all other sandboxes charted fall below that mark.
(correction, there is 1 sandbox that surprasses Eve (but not that 1mil mark). Second Life)
It's not just you, welcome to the club. It's a club that's growing rapidly and if devs don't take notice they'll be out of jobs soon enough.
You can only go so many rounds in the Skinner Box before you realize you've already done that before.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Again, 350k subs for the current 'shining example' of sandbox MMOs. This is the most successful game you can point to when referencing a sandbox atm.
As for games that can best that, if you limit it to current subscription models. You have WoW, and Aion, yes. While it's hard to know which numbers to trust, SWTOR also seems to meet that mark (though barely). If you expand your themeparks out of 'sub only' models, you will also find yet more games that meet that population marker.
However, if you were to look within the 'true sandbox' category of MMO. What's the next highest sandbox MMO's population?
I'm not entirely sure how relevant popularity is to the longevity premise this thread is built upon.
You can have casual gamers galore buying mmos and then dropping them a month later for the next shiny on the market. Not sure how that then impacts upon the argument that sandbox style systems offer mechanics which are better suited to promote longevity.
If someone came along and built a top quality sandbox game you could probably bet your ass that it would get nowhere near WoW numbers. But you could also stake your house on the fact that that sandbox would still be there, with a large player retention rate, whilst countless themeparks have come and gone in the mean time.
Whats is the population marker btw? As long as a game has enough subs to fund the game and for the game world to be populous enough that the games systems work optimally, then surely that is the "marker", not some arbitrary figure that allows you to say "haha my games got 100k more subs than yours!".
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
this is true. have to keep in mide that were talking about theamparks. and the best one out is gw2. followed by rift. just my opinion mind you
Simple explanation, the game is just not good. Some people, including OP, keep saying -- "Yes the game is great, it just bores me to death" -- in fact, ITS NOT YOU, it's the game that's guilty. The hype can blind you so badly, it's shocking.
This is the problem with all the themeparks lately. A couple of months in and you get bored. I can understand what OP is feeling right now. I log in for W v W for an hour or two and then log off. PVE side has really disappointed me especially once i reached Cursed Shore.
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
this is true. have to keep in mide that were talking about theamparks. and the best one out is gw2. followed by rift. just my opinion mind you
which shares mine:) find Rift the best p2p themepark out their but find GW2 a better game for me:)
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
Completely agree Aer. Been here long enough to see so many of them do this very same thing, like mobs of farmers with pitchforks and torches chasing the "monster game" that's trying to take away their fun in their gaming life. It's the in thing to do now.
I came here not 40 minutes ago, and boy did this one post by badspock bring out the trolls. Holy crimminy. There was 1 page his post for like 5 minute and then 30 minutes later BAM 7 pages of people going..."I want all the terrible things the other games forced on us for years as the only means of progression!" and "I want the horrible combat styles of the older games that caused us all to be pressing just three buttons while standing still" Seriously this is what people want?
Then tell me this, if that was REALLY the case, if people REALLY wanted the crappy old school gear treadmill stuff then why is it that every major WoW/EQ raid only lobby game (minus Rift) has failed in the past few years? Anyone?..... didn't think so. So please, at least have the decency to be as honest as our good friend Badspock here. He admitted that it could be the themepark burnout and not the game.
Not for nothing but your whole preseption on the subject is warped at best. as much as i would like to point out to you why, Its been done 100 times before in a 100 other threads.
Just fyi... 350k subs for a sandbox game that old should be all the info you need.
So.. 350k subs for a sandbox game that old is all the info we need. But 9million for a themepark game even older is irrelevant.
Got it, guess I really do have a warped sense of perspective.
I probably shouldn't bring up some of the other themeparks that have also been out for a while (though not quite as long as Eve). If you look at some of the graphs (like MMOData) you may notice a trend. There are no sandboxes over 1mil subs. There is only 1 sandbox over 150k subs, and all other sandboxes charted fall below that mark.
(correction, there is 1 sandbox that surprasses Eve (but not that 1mil mark). Second Life)
is the 9 mil refering to wow?
reason i ask is because eve came out a full year and a half before wow.
Your trying to compare 1960 us car sales in the US to 2012 foreign car sales in the US. Back in the 60s American made cares were everyhwere. in 2012 i could throw a rock in a parking lot and be lucky to hit one.
But well see in the coming years where to quality of MMO gaming will lay. With the current crop of hybrids and sandboxes on the horizon only time will tell.
But for me Theams dont do anything for me in terms of depth or longevity.
Comments
for me PVP, huge world to explore, multiple branching stories, classes that all have unique playstyles all add to the longevity for me.. i'm playing 3 classes in PVE currently and each has had a very differn't play and experience through my playthrough.. i also use my other slots as PVP exclusive characters for now but want to try to hit 80 with each race...I enjoy WvW and sPVP and while I think they both need ot be more fleshed out they both provide a much better foundation imho than all the other themeparks out right now
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I hit a snag at 16, but will push on....actually, been REALLY busy with RL...wife went away for a few days and I got the kids to myself, so haven't had a chance to get on.
I'm sorry if I concentrate on off-topic here, but since you mentioned it I just have to give some credit to TOR. The fights against single weak enemies does not take long. The whole point in TOR to send a pack of weak mobs at you is that you can cut them down quickly, and that's what you indeed can do. They die in just a few blows. Weak mobs in GW2 at least for me die almost as quick too, with the difference that in TOR you can fight a pack, but if you pull a lot of mobs in GW2 you'll die quick.
What took you so long?
Pretty much sums up how I felt about the game as a whole: Ho-hum.
I liked some of the ideas. Some of them seemed overly carebear in their nature. Which caused a reaction inside me, opposite to what the devs were aiming for.
We kind of all have. But I'll keep searching. Like back when I used to play other games, I kind of got bored of them and their genre and never thought I'd ever find something else like them. How was I wrong! Years may have passed, and seemingly out of the blue something smacks me up the head and I fall head over heels once again.
How about keeping it cool? Next time you want to cheerlead for another title.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I understand you points Spock. thusly. WoW is just a few (ten) expansions away, ye that direction>
You are an offspring of the 21st generation, thusly you've no idea how far we've come, so you could honestly keep your opinions to yourself.
I've already QUIT GW2 for a lack of better words, but i still feel you are wrongly judging the game, compared to shit that's been shoved down peoples throats for the last DECADE, GW2 is a breath of fresh air in this atrocity of "industry"!
I agree with the OP about Orr. It is either in a karma farm group running from event to event or on your own which feels like a chore. Risen are so annoying to fight imo. And what doesn't help are their silly comedy capers animations. The areas look awesome though, it really shows that it was all those years underneath the sea. But I just hate Risen.
Halloween event so far has been disappointing too. Seems just a bunch of achievements you can complete. I don't care about those orange bars. I hoped for a fun instanced questchain like personal story. The goosechase they send you on, is just some maptravel. The costumebrawl is fun for a minute or so and maybe a little longer with some of the better costumes which are clearly overpowered.
So I'm mainly busy grouping with guildies in areas that don't contain too many Risen and basically ignoring the halloween stuff. This is still a lot of fun though. But I also wonder how long this lasts. We really can use some new high lvl areas that don't have Risen
So out of a ball park figure of say 20 million folks having played some sort of mmo since 2004 ...you are promoting a game style that has been able to sustain a population of 350 k ? I'm sorry your theory of a sandbox MMO providing anything close to a reason for paying a sub or longevity is just "pipe dream" at best ...sorry bud forums wars for the next 5 years isn't the path most folks want to take .
At least I can respect this guys opinion on the game.
However, WvWvW is not pointless. It is very fun with a good group/guild that takes it serious and tries to come out on top as the best server week in and week out. War is a zerg my friend so get used to the zerging.
I don't think people are burned out on MMOs (some are of course), just sick of how each new game is shallower than the next. I know at least I want some depth brought back into MMOs. I've said it before, the games use to have 4 or 5 roles, then down to a trinity, then 2 and even 1.
Everyone can do everything! And everyone gets a prize just for showing up! Bleh. Next probably just get gear for having a character made, lol.
Also, the games don't need to be raid based, hardcore gear progression to work, but there has to be something to keep people wanting to play. Even in EQ, many people didn't really do the top raiding and were happy to group and kill crap. They still got gear, but the AAs they got helped them progress even further, customize their characters more. Same with RAs in daoc.
Even WoW has been simplified, which is probably part of the reason they keep bleeding subs. Sure it went up with MOP, but most likely start to go down again because it is even more simplified than ever.
For a while I thought I was burned out on MMOs, because every new game I tried didn't last. Then I went back to old ones I use to play and sustained longer play periods than I have in any game post WoW.
Correct. ~350k subs.
Again, 350k subs for the current 'shining example' of sandbox MMOs. This is the most successful game you can point to when referencing a sandbox atm.
As for games that can best that, if you limit it to current subscription models. You have WoW, and Aion, yes. While it's hard to know which numbers to trust, SWTOR also seems to meet that mark (though barely). If you expand your themeparks out of 'sub only' models, you will also find yet more games that meet that population marker.
However, if you were to look within the 'true sandbox' category of MMO. What's the next highest sandbox MMO's population?
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
You expressed much of how I felt recently with GW2, Spock. But I did go in not expecting any longevity, so I'm not leaving with any disappointment. I had some fun and felt it was worth the money spent. I felt the same way you did about feeling weaker as I got higher level, especially in the 70+ areas. I forced myself to reach 80, but didn't enjoy a moment of the final stretch, especially not being able to take two steps without being attacked in Orr. And once I dinged, I just stopped logging in.
A lot of charm in the world, and I appreciate the love ANet poured into the game. But as others have said, we each enjoy different game styles and I expect GW2 to continue to do well even though it wasn't for me. So back to my old MMO.
I'm glad you clearly love it but I am not seeing any real viable longer term mechanics there (not saying you are wrong ofc).
Doing the same stuff over again on an alt doesn't seem like a great form of longevity to me personally. Nor does pvp that has zero connect with the game world, when I can get (to my mind) a superior version of it in dedicated pvp games.
For me some mechanics which promote longevtiy (outside of gear/score grinds) in an mmo would be:
(I) Direct investment and engagement with the game world on a persistent basis. Putting down buildings, controlling territories.
(II) Dynamic content within the game world, i.e. player driven mechanisms meaning that when I log in, the political, territorial and physical landscape of the game world might be different from when I last logged in and may stay that way unless I, or others do something about it.
(III) A close knit player community. Knowing your friends and enemies on the server, not just the people in your guild and treating most others like ships that pass in the night.
Those three can be achieved via a variety of mechanics, but instead we see rinse and repeat content and accessibilty pushed as the prime gameplay features.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Not for nothing but your whole preseption on the subject is warped at best. as much as i would like to point out to you why, Its been done 100 times before in a 100 other threads.
Just fyi... 350k subs for a sandbox game that old should be all the info you need.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
So.. 350k subs for a sandbox game that old is all the info we need. But 9million for a themepark game even older is irrelevant.
Got it, guess I really do have a warped sense of perspective.
I probably shouldn't bring up some of the other themeparks that have also been out for a while (though not quite as long as Eve). If you look at some of the graphs (like MMOData) you may notice a trend. There are no sandboxes over 1mil subs. There is only 1 sandbox over 150k subs, and all other sandboxes charted fall below that mark.
(correction, there is 1 sandbox that surprasses Eve (but not that 1mil mark). Second Life)
It's not just you, welcome to the club. It's a club that's growing rapidly and if devs don't take notice they'll be out of jobs soon enough.
You can only go so many rounds in the Skinner Box before you realize you've already done that before.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I'm not entirely sure how relevant popularity is to the longevity premise this thread is built upon.
You can have casual gamers galore buying mmos and then dropping them a month later for the next shiny on the market. Not sure how that then impacts upon the argument that sandbox style systems offer mechanics which are better suited to promote longevity.
If someone came along and built a top quality sandbox game you could probably bet your ass that it would get nowhere near WoW numbers. But you could also stake your house on the fact that that sandbox would still be there, with a large player retention rate, whilst countless themeparks have come and gone in the mean time.
Whats is the population marker btw? As long as a game has enough subs to fund the game and for the game world to be populous enough that the games systems work optimally, then surely that is the "marker", not some arbitrary figure that allows you to say "haha my games got 100k more subs than yours!".
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
this is true. have to keep in mide that were talking about theamparks. and the best one out is gw2. followed by rift. just my opinion mind you
REALITY CHECK
This is the problem with all the themeparks lately. A couple of months in and you get bored. I can understand what OP is feeling right now. I log in for W v W for an hour or two and then log off. PVE side has really disappointed me especially once i reached Cursed Shore.
But i got my money's worth out of GW2.
which shares mine:) find Rift the best p2p themepark out their but find GW2 a better game for me:)
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Completely agree Aer. Been here long enough to see so many of them do this very same thing, like mobs of farmers with pitchforks and torches chasing the "monster game" that's trying to take away their fun in their gaming life. It's the in thing to do now.
I came here not 40 minutes ago, and boy did this one post by badspock bring out the trolls. Holy crimminy. There was 1 page his post for like 5 minute and then 30 minutes later BAM 7 pages of people going..."I want all the terrible things the other games forced on us for years as the only means of progression!" and "I want the horrible combat styles of the older games that caused us all to be pressing just three buttons while standing still" Seriously this is what people want?
Then tell me this, if that was REALLY the case, if people REALLY wanted the crappy old school gear treadmill stuff then why is it that every major WoW/EQ raid only lobby game (minus Rift) has failed in the past few years? Anyone?..... didn't think so. So please, at least have the decency to be as honest as our good friend Badspock here. He admitted that it could be the themepark burnout and not the game.
is the 9 mil refering to wow?
reason i ask is because eve came out a full year and a half before wow.
Your trying to compare 1960 us car sales in the US to 2012 foreign car sales in the US. Back in the 60s American made cares were everyhwere. in 2012 i could throw a rock in a parking lot and be lucky to hit one.
But well see in the coming years where to quality of MMO gaming will lay. With the current crop of hybrids and sandboxes on the horizon only time will tell.
But for me Theams dont do anything for me in terms of depth or longevity.