To me BadSpock's OP boils down to a lack of "meaningful" progression.
Of course, what gives a game meaning differs between players, so of course GW2 is received differently.
I know myself, the power progression must never stop, or I will lose interest.
I knew GW2 did its best to completely remove not only power progression but even competition between players outside of a few controlled avenues.
This is not for me.
I prefer a title like EVE where wealth translates to power, more skill training translates to power (esp in terms of versatility) and the progression really never ends.
I like struggling against the gankers, the scammers, the power players, the just plain downright nasty, by teaming up with like minded players and taking on the universe.
Even as I approach my 4th year in game, I realize there's so much more I can still do toward my goals, and I'm really glad I have one title out there to satisfy my play style.
ANET did its best to "tame" MMORPG's and remove as much pain as possible.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Completely agree Aer. Been here long enough to see so many of them do this very same thing, like mobs of farmers with pitchforks and torches chasing the "monster game" that's trying to take away their fun in their gaming life. It's the in thing to do now.
I came here not 40 minutes ago, and boy did this one post by badspock bring out the trolls. Holy crimminy. There was 1 page his post for like 5 minute and then 30 minutes later BAM 7 pages of people going..."I want all the terrible things the other games forced on us for years as the only means of progression!" and "I want the horrible combat styles of the older games that caused us all to be pressing just three buttons while standing still" Seriously this is what people want?
Then tell me this, if that was REALLY the case, if people REALLY wanted the crappy old school gear treadmill stuff then why is it that every major WoW/EQ raid only lobby game (minus Rift) has failed in the past few years? Anyone?..... didn't think so. So please, at least have the decency to be as honest as our good friend Badspock here. He admitted that it could be the themepark burnout and not the game.
Not sure if serious.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
Completely agree Aer. Been here long enough to see so many of them do this very same thing, like mobs of farmers with pitchforks and torches chasing the "monster game" that's trying to take away their fun in their gaming life. It's the in thing to do now.
I came here not 40 minutes ago, and boy did this one post by badspock bring out the trolls. Holy crimminy. There was 1 page his post for like 5 minute and then 30 minutes later BAM 7 pages of people going..."I want all the terrible things the other games forced on us for years as the only means of progression!" and "I want the horrible combat styles of the older games that caused us all to be pressing just three buttons while standing still" Seriously this is what people want?
Then tell me this, if that was REALLY the case, if people REALLY wanted the crappy old school gear treadmill stuff then why is it that every major WoW/EQ raid only lobby game (minus Rift) has failed in the past few years? Anyone?..... didn't think so. So please, at least have the decency to be as honest as our good friend Badspock here. He admitted that it could be the themepark burnout and not the game.
Well when you make such exaggerated claims it sucks all the fun out of discussion. But then this is MMORPG.COM. People have so many versions of word 'failure'.
Also it would be foolish to claim that all these MMOS failed because of gear treadmill because if it was true Rift would be a failure too (intrestingly you decided to leave it out) which alones contradict your point.
A game fails because a lot of factors and not just because of gear treadmill. You guys focus on gear grind a little too much as if that is the only reason for the failures of recent MMOS.
I'm not entirely sure how relevant popularity is to the longevity premise this thread is built upon.
You can have casual gamers galore buying mmos and then dropping them a month later for the next shiny on the market. Not sure how that then impacts upon the argument that sandbox style systems offer mechanics which are better suited to promote longevity.
If someone came along and built a top quality sandbox game you could probably bet your ass that it would get nowhere near WoW numbers. But you could also stake your house on the fact that that sandbox would still be there, with a large player retention rate, whilst countless themeparks have come and gone in the mean time.
Whats is the population marker btw? As long as a game has enough subs to fund the game and for the game world to be populous enough that the games systems work optimally, then surely that is the "marker", not some arbitrary figure that allows you to say "haha my games got 100k more subs than yours!".
It's not all that relevant when it comes to GW2, no. There are too many other factors far more important than MMO population trends.
My point was more just to illustrate that some of the people here soapboxing true oldschool sandboxes as the way to save the industry, may be looking through some tinted glasses a bit.
Again, I never said that more sandboxy games aren't the way to go. Or that they wouldn't necessarily be as popular as WoW. The whole point was to show that the sandboxes we used to have just aren't going to cut it in todays market. We would need a newer, better sandbox. Not more of the same. Simply put, looking back is not the way forward. Sure you can learn something from some of the earlier designs, but the last thing we need right now is a reskin of even older games.
The biggest problem that's been plaguing this genre for a while, is that most people don't feel like they're having any new experiences. The complaint is usually something along the lines of 'this is still the same ol' crap'. I don't think making the same mistake, but choosing a different game to base it off of is going to help anyone much, tbh. I think what we need are new experiences, new ways to play an MMO. As long as we keep clinging to the same playstyles that have failed in the past, they are going to keep failing in the future.
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
Completely agree Aer. Been here long enough to see so many of them do this very same thing, like mobs of farmers with pitchforks and torches chasing the "monster game" that's trying to take away their fun in their gaming life. It's the in thing to do now.
I came here not 40 minutes ago, and boy did this one post by badspock bring out the trolls. Holy crimminy. There was 1 page his post for like 5 minute and then 30 minutes later BAM 7 pages of people going..."I want all the terrible things the other games forced on us for years as the only means of progression!" and "I want the horrible combat styles of the older games that caused us all to be pressing just three buttons while standing still" Seriously this is what people want?
Then tell me this, if that was REALLY the case, if people REALLY wanted the crappy old school gear treadmill stuff then why is it that every major WoW/EQ raid only lobby game (minus Rift) has failed in the past few years? Anyone?..... didn't think so. So please, at least have the decency to be as honest as our good friend Badspock here. He admitted that it could be the themepark burnout and not the game.
I think a lot of people are replying to this because he was one of the initial GW2 champions.
Contrary to what you say, I think a lot of people have a great deal of disappointment over this game considering how many hyped it to death months in advance. Sometimes, it takes someone else to come out express their disappointment for others to feel its ok to share their own feelings.
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
this is true. have to keep in mide that were talking about theamparks. and the best one out is gw2. followed by rift. just my opinion mind you
which shares mine:) find Rift the best p2p themepark out their but find GW2 a better game for me:)
I just hate cash shops. I hate them. And, yes, I'm watching Rifts for anything even remotely suspiscious. When that happens, I will quit Rift too. Hopefully, it will stay the way it is. Nothing useable, consumable or wearable in game. It's bad enough they sell that dam mount skin. PFFT! But for now, Rift is the best MMO for me that is available.
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
this is true. have to keep in mide that were talking about theamparks. and the best one out is gw2. followed by rift. just my opinion mind you
which shares mine:) find Rift the best p2p themepark out their but find GW2 a better game for me:)
I just hate cash shops. I hate them. And, yes, I'm watching Rifts for anything even remotely suspiscious. When that happens, I will quit Rift too. Hopefully, it will stay the way it is. Nothing useable, consumable or wearable in game. It's bad enough they sell that dam mount skin. PFFT! But for now, Rift is the best MMO for me that is available.
so if Deeps’ Depot offers full blown cosmetic shop you would leave just for that? i dunno to me that concept just makes no sense to me.. how does it hurt your gaming experience in any way if others feel it worth it to spend some extra money on cosmetic items.. if the company is a good company like I feel Trion is and you can see them bringing out lots of new content I really don't see the issue.. now say they only released 2 patches a year and had this then i'd see a reason to get angry... i personally don't like CS in P2P games but won't leave a game because of it as long as it's not p2w
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I never thought I would read this review from Mr. Spock. However, I think his assessment is spot on. He pointed out all the things I felt when I stopped playing...except I figured it out a little earlier than he did.
In the end, I think we're just both done with MMORPGs for a while, Spock. The industry has gone stale.
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
this is true. have to keep in mide that were talking about theamparks. and the best one out is gw2. followed by rift. just my opinion mind you
which shares mine:) find Rift the best p2p themepark out their but find GW2 a better game for me:)
I just hate cash shops. I hate them. And, yes, I'm watching Rifts for anything even remotely suspiscious. When that happens, I will quit Rift too. Hopefully, it will stay the way it is. Nothing useable, consumable or wearable in game. It's bad enough they sell that dam mount skin. PFFT! But for now, Rift is the best MMO for me that is available.
I hate cash shops to. Never liked them. I do want to clerify something i said. I did say GW2 is the best theampark out followed by rift. That said i do think of theamparks like fast food joints. There awesome for a quick hot meal. But thats all there good for.
Just depends on how good the food is at said joint. And theres nothing wrong with that. I do like my fastfood from time to time. But i would rather have a home cooked meal then a flash fried chicken finger.
It's not all that relevant when it comes to GW2, no. There are too many other factors far more important than MMO population trends.
My point was more just to illustrate that some of the people here soapboxing true oldschool sandboxes as the way to save the industry, may be looking through some tinted glasses a bit.
Again, I never said that more sandboxy games aren't the way to go. Or that they wouldn't necessarily be as popular as WoW. The whole point was to show that the sandboxes we used to have just aren't going to cut it in todays market. We would need a newer, better sandbox. Not more of the same. Simply put, looking back is not the way forward. Sure you can learn something from some of the earlier designs, but the last thing we need right now is a reskin of even older games.
The biggest problem that's been plaguing this genre for a while, is that most people don't feel like they're having any new experiences. The complaint is usually something along the lines of 'this is still the same ol' crap'. I don't think making the same mistake, but choosing a different game to base it off of is going to help anyone much, tbh. I think what we need are new experiences, new ways to play an MMO. As long as we keep clinging to the same playstyles that have failed in the past, they are going to keep failing in the future.
Which again goes back to the original point. People are championing open, persistent, dynamic, community driven worlds. The systems in the old games promoted them.
If someone comes up with new methods to provide those worlds (which are new to the modern mmo player btw), then go for it. In the mean time, we hark back to the systems which actually provided such content.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I never thought I would read this review from Mr. Spock. However, I think his assessment is spot on. He pointed out all the things I felt when I stopped playing...except I figured it out a little earlier than he did.
In the end, I think we're just both done with MMORPGs for a while, Spock. The industry has gone stale.
At least hes keeping it real. got to respect the man for that. More people should know what crow tastes like. i know i sure do
People will probably flame, but I'm back in SW:TOR and loving it. I know I'll probably quit again once I get this alt to level 30-40 or whenever it starts getting boring but for now it's great fun collecting loot, doing flashpoints, enjoying the Republic story (there was a really sad mission on Taris yesterday that I nearly cried on).
Funny how I had resigned the MMO genre to failure, but all it's taken is a couple days in a supposedly terrible game to rekindle my love of it.
Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months != MMO burnout.
of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there
this is true. have to keep in mide that were talking about theamparks. and the best one out is gw2. followed by rift. just my opinion mind you
which shares mine:) find Rift the best p2p themepark out their but find GW2 a better game for me:)
I just hate cash shops. I hate them. And, yes, I'm watching Rifts for anything even remotely suspiscious. When that happens, I will quit Rift too. Hopefully, it will stay the way it is. Nothing useable, consumable or wearable in game. It's bad enough they sell that dam mount skin. PFFT! But for now, Rift is the best MMO for me that is available.
so if Deeps’ Depot offers full blown cosmetic shop you would leave just for that? i dunno to me that concept just makes no sense to me.. how does it hurt your gaming experience in any way if others feel it worth it to spend some extra money on cosmetic items.. if the company is a good company like I feel Trion is and you can see them bringing out lots of new content I really don't see the issue.. now say they only released 2 patches a year and had this then i'd see a reason to get angry... i personally don't like CS in P2P games but won't leave a game because of it as long as it's not p2w
GW2 has the most respectable cash shop I have seen yet. But only in terms of what's relative from one player to the next. I have said this before. I applaud ANET for being one of the only companies to not bullshit it's players and did not introduce some hidden P2W mechanics and some slippery wording to cover it up. (**CoughfuncomCough**) But I don not consider GW2's Cash Shop to be totally benign. The game's economy is all but nonexistant.
Being able to buy boxing gloves and sunglasses undermines the whole concept of progression. It doesn't matter than there are no stats to it. It's in the game, you should have to do something to get it. And, yeah, I get that it's possible to make all items in the game also. But it's still a form of progression. It is something....anything, that get's players out there doing something in the game, then it's one more thing to keep you playing and or do with someone else. If I buy it in the shop, what's the point of playing the game?
I think these people will add the carrot, perhaps it will have a roof and a shrubbery, but that will take time.
For now, why not get hyped over DFUW like the rest of us. Owning a hamlet or city there will mean something.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76) Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
Theme parks are all about learning new systems or the new variation of the old system and leveling. If you stick around after that it's just gravy. The problem as I see it is that we continue to hope that every new MMO will provide some magical activity that will keep us happy indefinitely. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment.
if we continue to play or go back to play it's usually because of some unique personal reason. Me, I like alts and redoing content with new abilities are fun... Not as much fun as the first time around but something I enjoy nevertheless.
One good thing about GW2: no sub. Come back or not when the mood strikes you then stay for a day, a week or a month. Life's too short to feel like you are required to enjoy something you don't any more... certainly not when it comes to our chosen form of entertainment.
i never say I'm leaving an MMO for good.... I may just be back.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
GW2 has the most respectabel cash shop I have seen yet. But only in terms of what's relative from one player to the next. I have said this before. I applaud ANET for being one of the only companies to not bullshit it's players and did not introduce some hidden P2W mechanics and some slippery wording to cover it up. (**CoughfuncomCough**) But I don not consider GW2's Cash Shop to be totally benign. The game's economy is all but nonexistant.
Being able to buy boxing gloves and sunglasses undermines the whole concept of progression. It doesn't matter than there are no stats to it. It's in the game, you should have to do something to get it. And, yeah, I get that it's possible to make all items in the game also. But it's still a form of progression. It is something....anything, that get's players out there doing something in the game, then it's one more thing to keep you playing and or do with someone else. If I buy it in the shop, what's the point of playing the game?
RIFT sells mounts and extra goodies with some upgrade packs. What's the point in playing that game then?
you missed my earlier post. I've already expressed my dislike of those and they are very close to the line. In fact they are prettymuch sitting on it. If Deep's Depot put's one thing in there I can wear, use or consume, then there is no point and I'll quit Rift too.
I agree Spock. I haven't quit yet but my playtime is dwindling.
The big problem with all of these recent two month max mmos is that they have zero sandbox elements. As a long time themepark player I'm starting to see the light. I don't need a pur e sandbox but the closer to a virtual world the better. I really think the days of the no freedom themepark mmo are limited. I think most future mmos will offer some freedom and do a better job of creating a virtual world.
The more I think about gw2 the more like a console game it becomes.
I agree with everything that BadSpock wrote but I am still playing GW2. I am doing a different tack - I am leveling up three toons pretty much at the same speed. They are all around level 40 now.
I know that I am going to hit the same wall. Worse, I feel almost the way that he does - there aren't any mmo's that I want to stay with. I tried MOP but the talent changes, the squishy monk, and the loss of my favorite succubus turned me off. I tried Rift again and THEY changed the talents too. As much as I love Trion (I have a month to go for a year sub and I will re-sub - not for the game but for the company - they listen to their players!) I don't feel epic anymore, like BadSpock says about the GW2 mobs - it take far too long to kill mobs with the gear that I have.
BadSpock hit the nail on the head for SWTOR!
None of the upcoming mmo's interest me except Wildstar and that is so far away it might as well be Titan.
I hoped that I would retire and play MMO's all the time. Now I am just going to keep on working. Now THAT is sorry!
Which again goes back to the original point. People are championing open, persistent, dynamic, community driven worlds. The systems in the old games promoted them.
If someone comes up with new methods to provide those worlds (which are new to the modern mmo player btw), then go for it. In the mean time, we hark back to the systems which actually provided such content.
Some people are, not all.
Again.. if you go back to some of my posts, I agree that having more open game worlds is the way to go. However, some people make that sandbox label synonymous with 'we need another UO', which I believe is the wrong way to look at things.
And again, I don't think backtracking to old and tested systems is the way to go at all. I think it's good for designers to learn from them, and some of the better ones most definitely do, but none of those systems were perfect. Even Raph Koster has said as much, and that he thinks it's a shame that noone has tried to expand upon those inital designs.
Those games were successful at the time because they were pioneers. The technology was new, the mindset was completely different, and people were still finding out about the genre and its mechanics. That hasn't been true for quite some time.
Heck, there have still been sandboxes made today, using similar technology, and only 1 of them is doing alright. Some were even kinda good, like Shadowbane, but there's a reason why not many people played that compared to other games. I haven't seen any reason to believe that making the same games that we've already had before, will magically be more successful this time around. While people are asking for more open / sandboxy worlds, many don't seem to have the same concept of what that means as the people on these forums seem to.
We need newer games, updated mechanics, more interesting gameplay. Not the same mechanics we had 15 years ago
Theme parks are all about learning new systems or the new variation of the old system and leveling. If you stick around after that it's just gravy. The problem as I see it is that we continue to hope that every new MMO will provide some magical activity that will keep us happy indefinitely. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment.
if we continue to play or go back to play it's usually because of some unique personal reason. Me, I like alts and redoing content with new abilities are fun... Not as much fun as the first time around but something I enjoy nevertheless.
One good thing about GW2: no sub. Come back or not when the mood strikes you then stay for a day, a week or a month. Life's too short to feel like you are required to enjoy something you don't any more... certainly not when it comes to our chosen form of entertainment.
i never say I'm leaving an MMO for good.... I may just be back.
For six years I played WOW - almost every day. That is part of my problem - I keep on looking for the next WOW. It is not going to happen. Yet, like you, I suppose I will just keep trying every one...
Theme parks are all about learning new systems or the new variation of the old system and leveling. If you stick around after that it's just gravy. The problem as I see it is that we continue to hope that every new MMO will provide some magical activity that will keep us happy indefinitely. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment.
if we continue to play or go back to play it's usually because of some unique personal reason. Me, I like alts and redoing content with new abilities are fun... Not as much fun as the first time around but something I enjoy nevertheless.
One good thing about GW2: no sub. Come back or not when the mood strikes you then stay for a day, a week or a month. Life's too short to feel like you are required to enjoy something you don't any more... certainly not when it comes to our chosen form of entertainment.
i never say I'm leaving an MMO for good.... I may just be back.
For six years I played WOW - almost every day. That is part of my problem - I keep on looking for the next WOW. It is not going to happen. Yet, like you, I suppose I will just keep trying every one...
Well, the problem actually is that 'the next WOW' has already happened, and it keeps happening. However, the model of fun that WOW is based off of has inherent problems. This video kinda sums it up pretty nicely.
WOW is a skinner box mechanic, and as more and more games copy that, people find more and more efficient ways to circumvent, exploit, or burn through that same mechanic.
In short, it's not that the 'next WOW' won't happen. It that the 'next WOW' won't feel anywhere near the same as the inital one (a trend most of us are VERY familiar with). If it's that initial feeling you want, and aren't still tied to the mechanics, then the 'next WOW' for you, will actually be a completely different game.
GW2 has the most respectabel cash shop I have seen yet. But only in terms of what's relative from one player to the next. I have said this before. I applaud ANET for being one of the only companies to not bullshit it's players and did not introduce some hidden P2W mechanics and some slippery wording to cover it up. (**CoughfuncomCough**) But I don not consider GW2's Cash Shop to be totally benign. The game's economy is all but nonexistant.
Being able to buy boxing gloves and sunglasses undermines the whole concept of progression. It doesn't matter than there are no stats to it. It's in the game, you should have to do something to get it. And, yeah, I get that it's possible to make all items in the game also. But it's still a form of progression. It is something....anything, that get's players out there doing something in the game, then it's one more thing to keep you playing and or do with someone else. If I buy it in the shop, what's the point of playing the game?
RIFT sells mounts and extra goodies with some upgrade packs. What's the point in playing that game then?
you missed my earlier post. I've already expressed my dislike of those and they are very close to the line. In fact they are prettymuch sitting on it. If Deep's Depot put's one thing in there I can wear, use or consume, then there is no point and I'll quit Rift too.
I read what you said before and I understand, but I don't get why the micro-transaction stuff they sell now gets a pass and future items don't? How is it any different? The bottom line is they have stuff for sale as micro-transactions that you don't have to game for. You can buy it in their web based account cash shop. So what is the point of playing the game, or at least why does the existing get a free pass?
Because it seems, I don't have a choice. "Stuff" included with CE's are just part of the evolution of it all. It's not about this item is ok but the next one isn't. It's that, should they go that route, I know where it evenutally ends. It's not about a free pass, it's about where does it start and where does it stop. If it stops "here" I can live with it, but setting foot down "that path" taking one more step and one more step, I'm not walking down a road that I know where it ends.
Not for nothing but your whole preseption on the subject is warped at best. as much as i would like to point out to you why, Its been done 100 times before in a 100 other threads.
Just fyi... 350k subs for a sandbox game that old should be all the info you need.
So.. 350k subs for a sandbox game that old is all the info we need. But 9million for a themepark game even older is irrelevant.
Got it, guess I really do have a warped sense of perspective.
I probably shouldn't bring up some of the other themeparks that have also been out for a while (though not quite as long as Eve). If you look at some of the graphs (like MMOData) you may notice a trend. There are no sandboxes over 1mil subs. There is only 1 sandbox over 150k subs, and all other sandboxes charted fall below that mark.
(correction, there is 1 sandbox that surprasses Eve (but not that 1mil mark). Second Life)
How can you not know that EVE is older than WoW?
The problem with sandbox vs themepark is that all the themepark games are AAA with huge advertisments. The total money spent into themepark vs sandbox might be in 99:1 ratio.
First off - want to say that I still think GW2 is a great game for what it is - the quality is high, the fun is worth the price of admission, and I still stand by my original review/op-ed that GW2 is an amazing game.
But I'm just not sure it's for me.
Longevity was always my biggest concern with GW2 - and I've hit that slump.
I know I'll be back, probably often as the business model is perfect for me - the "modern" MMO gamer who hops from game to game and can't stay interested in one thing for too long.
But i've just hit a wall.
-My main is level 77 or 78, and I've been seriously let down.
-Finally did a big dragon fight, Taquatl the Sunless - complete and total failure. Extremely disappointing. Right now it’s pretty much attack dragon -> get feared out of place -> run back and continue spamming.
-Finally got into Orr, 70-75 zone anyways. Extremely disappointing. What I thought/hoped would be a PvE battleground type experience (PvE WvW) is actually in fact just Zerg Merry-Go-Round.
Hop on the train, ride along the zerg from point A to B to C back to A again.
-Halloween event has thus far been extremely disappointing. Candy corn? Who cares, sell it all in TP. Costumes? Don't care. Costume brawl? Not even fun - randomly kicking around LA by Mystic Forge.
Couldn't figure out how to make the damn scanner work / figure it out - not going to cheat and google it. Pointless.
-WvW I have very little interest in. So many complaints of zergs, bugs/broken, lack of any real reason to care, and long wait times.
-sPvP I have very little interest in. Rewards / prestige don't match input. I get a lot of fun out of progression in PvP like in CoD or BF3 or Halo games, haven't found any reason to care about winning/losing in sPvP yet.
-Lost pretty much all interest in crafting, lost all interest in zone completion and grinding Hearts.
-I've run a handful of story mode and explorable mode dungeons. Where are the rewards? Where is the loot? Couple of shitty blues? 10-15 minute corpse hopping bosses? There is no skill/strategy there. And what's it all for, some cool looking cosmetic rewards (and the 10% stat bonus of Exotics?)
-Personal story is a bit of a miss. These "epic" events in the Vigil line are anything but. Apparently a "massive undead siege of Orrians" is 10-15 mobs. The scale and sense of epicness is just pathetic. Limitation of the MMO genre I suppose.
I still get some fun out of toying around with other classes (like right now a Mesmer) but I know if I play for too long I'm going to hit that wall and get bored again in like an hour.
Where's the "dynamic" in the dynamic events?
Where's the point of sPvP / WvW? I get a much better sense of achievement playing Halo or back in UO Factions where taking control of a city/town actually felt like it mattered.
Where is the feeling of accomplishment for doing a great job in a run? It's made me realize I really do miss the Trinity - I hate to say it, but I do. I've always been a Tank/Healer - and I've always strived to be a damn good one too. That was my main feeling of accomplishment beyond just the gear rewards and stat progression - knowing I was good at my job.
Now don't get me wrong - GW2 does some things absolutely great.
1. The combat is fun and exciting, for a while, but the limited skills per Weapon contibutes to getting bored fast. Cooldowns are too long, spend too much time auto-attacking and waiting for cooldowns or being forced to switch to your second set.
I've also grown frustrated for how weak I feel. The pace of combat was so much better at earlier levels. I had this problem MAJOR bad with TOR - fights just take too long for no reason. It doesn't make me feel like a "hero" when I can't cut through swaths of baddies with ease.
Sure, I like having elite/champion/veteran mobs that take a bit of effort to kill. That's fun. But I don't like feeling like I'm hitting with a wet noodle against normal mobs. TOR made this mistake BIG time, and the only MMO where I never felt this way - is WoW.
And yes, I've tried about 6 different trait combinations, weapon combos, etc. On my Guardian at level 77/78 using level 75 Rare weapons, even with the supposed "OP" Greatsword and then Sword/Torch combo. Yes I'm fully Runed 6/6 set w/ Weapon runes, all gear is 75+ blue/green/rare.
The utility skills feel weak. Great for situational help, but I have yet to press ANY button in any class at any level in GW2 where I felt like "Wow, I love this ability it is so freaking cool and awesome."
2. Quality of life features like "Send to Collections" is great. Trading Post from anywhere is superb. No competition for harvesting nodes is splendid. Overflow servers is freak'n brilliant. Dye system and "dye anything anywhere" is amazing. Not quite as great as it'd be with an appearance tab, but the Dye system is awesome.
3. No kill stealing, everyone gets loot, never a bad idea to help another player, cross-profession combos with anyone outside of grouping etc. is awesome and a huge, huge step forward in PvE.
I guess, as sad as it is at the end of the day... I need the carrot. The gameplay is just not sufficiently fun enough to keep me interested without the carrot to chase.
I need the Trinity, I need to have a role I am good at.
I think I'm about done with the MMORPG genre to be honest. I have a feeling I am never going to find a single game I am going to play for months and years on end without breaks.
Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just like the rest. I will probably end up like the rest bouncing from game to game, new release to new release like an addict chasing the next fix.
The dream of "the game to stick with" is gone for me.
I've hit MMORPG rock bottom.
This is BadSpock, signing off...
Ditto. I'm continuing to play because there's nothing else out there for me. I'm NOT going back to SWTOR. I don't relish the idea of playing WoW again. I've pretty much played Eve every possible way. As you said, thank god for the B2P business model. I can log on as much or as little as I want. Or I can take 6 months off and come back.
What my friends and I are the MOST disappointed by was how quickly the shine wore off. I played SWTOR for a good 4-6 months before I started having the 'eff this crap' feeling. We're just hitting the 2mo mark for GW2 (early release) and we've been rather frustrated for several weeks now.
Oh, and for all the wonderful listening and general cooperative relationship between ANet and the community in the past (GW1, the GW2 betas) once the game went live, they executed a series of PR moves that were relationship kryptonite. I'm beginning to develop a chronic urge to punch Jon Peters in the face and I *KNOW* I'm not alone.
Comments
To me BadSpock's OP boils down to a lack of "meaningful" progression.
Of course, what gives a game meaning differs between players, so of course GW2 is received differently.
I know myself, the power progression must never stop, or I will lose interest.
I knew GW2 did its best to completely remove not only power progression but even competition between players outside of a few controlled avenues.
This is not for me.
I prefer a title like EVE where wealth translates to power, more skill training translates to power (esp in terms of versatility) and the progression really never ends.
I like struggling against the gankers, the scammers, the power players, the just plain downright nasty, by teaming up with like minded players and taking on the universe.
Even as I approach my 4th year in game, I realize there's so much more I can still do toward my goals, and I'm really glad I have one title out there to satisfy my play style.
ANET did its best to "tame" MMORPG's and remove as much pain as possible.
I find I enjoy the pain.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not sure if serious.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Well when you make such exaggerated claims it sucks all the fun out of discussion. But then this is MMORPG.COM. People have so many versions of word 'failure'.
Also it would be foolish to claim that all these MMOS failed because of gear treadmill because if it was true Rift would be a failure too (intrestingly you decided to leave it out) which alones contradict your point.
A game fails because a lot of factors and not just because of gear treadmill. You guys focus on gear grind a little too much as if that is the only reason for the failures of recent MMOS.
It's not all that relevant when it comes to GW2, no. There are too many other factors far more important than MMO population trends.
My point was more just to illustrate that some of the people here soapboxing true oldschool sandboxes as the way to save the industry, may be looking through some tinted glasses a bit.
Again, I never said that more sandboxy games aren't the way to go. Or that they wouldn't necessarily be as popular as WoW. The whole point was to show that the sandboxes we used to have just aren't going to cut it in todays market. We would need a newer, better sandbox. Not more of the same. Simply put, looking back is not the way forward. Sure you can learn something from some of the earlier designs, but the last thing we need right now is a reskin of even older games.
The biggest problem that's been plaguing this genre for a while, is that most people don't feel like they're having any new experiences. The complaint is usually something along the lines of 'this is still the same ol' crap'. I don't think making the same mistake, but choosing a different game to base it off of is going to help anyone much, tbh. I think what we need are new experiences, new ways to play an MMO. As long as we keep clinging to the same playstyles that have failed in the past, they are going to keep failing in the future.
I think a lot of people are replying to this because he was one of the initial GW2 champions.
Contrary to what you say, I think a lot of people have a great deal of disappointment over this game considering how many hyped it to death months in advance. Sometimes, it takes someone else to come out express their disappointment for others to feel its ok to share their own feelings.
I just hate cash shops. I hate them. And, yes, I'm watching Rifts for anything even remotely suspiscious. When that happens, I will quit Rift too. Hopefully, it will stay the way it is. Nothing useable, consumable or wearable in game. It's bad enough they sell that dam mount skin. PFFT! But for now, Rift is the best MMO for me that is available.
so if Deeps’ Depot offers full blown cosmetic shop you would leave just for that? i dunno to me that concept just makes no sense to me.. how does it hurt your gaming experience in any way if others feel it worth it to spend some extra money on cosmetic items.. if the company is a good company like I feel Trion is and you can see them bringing out lots of new content I really don't see the issue.. now say they only released 2 patches a year and had this then i'd see a reason to get angry... i personally don't like CS in P2P games but won't leave a game because of it as long as it's not p2w
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
A mighty one has fallen!
I never thought I would read this review from Mr. Spock. However, I think his assessment is spot on. He pointed out all the things I felt when I stopped playing...except I figured it out a little earlier than he did.
In the end, I think we're just both done with MMORPGs for a while, Spock. The industry has gone stale.
http://f.cl.ly/items/3n15423i0G2i111y3c2b/computer.gif
I hate cash shops to. Never liked them. I do want to clerify something i said. I did say GW2 is the best theampark out followed by rift. That said i do think of theamparks like fast food joints. There awesome for a quick hot meal. But thats all there good for.
Just depends on how good the food is at said joint. And theres nothing wrong with that. I do like my fastfood from time to time. But i would rather have a home cooked meal then a flash fried chicken finger.
When i have the time to make said dinner
Which again goes back to the original point. People are championing open, persistent, dynamic, community driven worlds. The systems in the old games promoted them.
If someone comes up with new methods to provide those worlds (which are new to the modern mmo player btw), then go for it. In the mean time, we hark back to the systems which actually provided such content.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
At least hes keeping it real. got to respect the man for that. More people should know what crow tastes like. i know i sure do
I belive the word is humility?
Totally agreed.
Game dont have carrot keep me interestet. Sure WvWvW is fun zerg "some times" but its dont reward at all.
O yeah, halloween sucks. crap rewards and very lucky based. spend 15 gold for gems to get keys for chests.... nothing.
People will probably flame, but I'm back in SW:TOR and loving it. I know I'll probably quit again once I get this alt to level 30-40 or whenever it starts getting boring but for now it's great fun collecting loot, doing flashpoints, enjoying the Republic story (there was a really sad mission on Taris yesterday that I nearly cried on).
Funny how I had resigned the MMO genre to failure, but all it's taken is a couple days in a supposedly terrible game to rekindle my love of it.
GW2 has the most respectable cash shop I have seen yet. But only in terms of what's relative from one player to the next. I have said this before. I applaud ANET for being one of the only companies to not bullshit it's players and did not introduce some hidden P2W mechanics and some slippery wording to cover it up. (**CoughfuncomCough**) But I don not consider GW2's Cash Shop to be totally benign. The game's economy is all but nonexistant.
Being able to buy boxing gloves and sunglasses undermines the whole concept of progression. It doesn't matter than there are no stats to it. It's in the game, you should have to do something to get it. And, yeah, I get that it's possible to make all items in the game also. But it's still a form of progression. It is something....anything, that get's players out there doing something in the game, then it's one more thing to keep you playing and or do with someone else. If I buy it in the shop, what's the point of playing the game?
I think these people will add the carrot, perhaps it will have a roof and a shrubbery, but that will take time.
For now, why not get hyped over DFUW like the rest of us. Owning a hamlet or city there will mean something.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76)
Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
Theme parks are all about learning new systems or the new variation of the old system and leveling. If you stick around after that it's just gravy. The problem as I see it is that we continue to hope that every new MMO will provide some magical activity that will keep us happy indefinitely. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment.
if we continue to play or go back to play it's usually because of some unique personal reason. Me, I like alts and redoing content with new abilities are fun... Not as much fun as the first time around but something I enjoy nevertheless.
One good thing about GW2: no sub. Come back or not when the mood strikes you then stay for a day, a week or a month. Life's too short to feel like you are required to enjoy something you don't any more... certainly not when it comes to our chosen form of entertainment.
i never say I'm leaving an MMO for good.... I may just be back.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
you missed my earlier post. I've already expressed my dislike of those and they are very close to the line. In fact they are prettymuch sitting on it. If Deep's Depot put's one thing in there I can wear, use or consume, then there is no point and I'll quit Rift too.
The big problem with all of these recent two month max mmos is that they have zero sandbox elements. As a long time themepark player I'm starting to see the light. I don't need a pur e sandbox but the closer to a virtual world the better. I really think the days of the no freedom themepark mmo are limited. I think most future mmos will offer some freedom and do a better job of creating a virtual world.
The more I think about gw2 the more like a console game it becomes.
I agree with everything that BadSpock wrote but I am still playing GW2. I am doing a different tack - I am leveling up three toons pretty much at the same speed. They are all around level 40 now.
I know that I am going to hit the same wall. Worse, I feel almost the way that he does - there aren't any mmo's that I want to stay with. I tried MOP but the talent changes, the squishy monk, and the loss of my favorite succubus turned me off. I tried Rift again and THEY changed the talents too. As much as I love Trion (I have a month to go for a year sub and I will re-sub - not for the game but for the company - they listen to their players!) I don't feel epic anymore, like BadSpock says about the GW2 mobs - it take far too long to kill mobs with the gear that I have.
BadSpock hit the nail on the head for SWTOR!
None of the upcoming mmo's interest me except Wildstar and that is so far away it might as well be Titan.
I hoped that I would retire and play MMO's all the time. Now I am just going to keep on working. Now THAT is sorry!
Some people are, not all.
Again.. if you go back to some of my posts, I agree that having more open game worlds is the way to go. However, some people make that sandbox label synonymous with 'we need another UO', which I believe is the wrong way to look at things.
And again, I don't think backtracking to old and tested systems is the way to go at all. I think it's good for designers to learn from them, and some of the better ones most definitely do, but none of those systems were perfect. Even Raph Koster has said as much, and that he thinks it's a shame that noone has tried to expand upon those inital designs.
Those games were successful at the time because they were pioneers. The technology was new, the mindset was completely different, and people were still finding out about the genre and its mechanics. That hasn't been true for quite some time.
Heck, there have still been sandboxes made today, using similar technology, and only 1 of them is doing alright. Some were even kinda good, like Shadowbane, but there's a reason why not many people played that compared to other games. I haven't seen any reason to believe that making the same games that we've already had before, will magically be more successful this time around. While people are asking for more open / sandboxy worlds, many don't seem to have the same concept of what that means as the people on these forums seem to.
We need newer games, updated mechanics, more interesting gameplay. Not the same mechanics we had 15 years ago
For six years I played WOW - almost every day. That is part of my problem - I keep on looking for the next WOW. It is not going to happen. Yet, like you, I suppose I will just keep trying every one...
Well, the problem actually is that 'the next WOW' has already happened, and it keeps happening. However, the model of fun that WOW is based off of has inherent problems. This video kinda sums it up pretty nicely.
WOW is a skinner box mechanic, and as more and more games copy that, people find more and more efficient ways to circumvent, exploit, or burn through that same mechanic.
In short, it's not that the 'next WOW' won't happen. It that the 'next WOW' won't feel anywhere near the same as the inital one (a trend most of us are VERY familiar with). If it's that initial feeling you want, and aren't still tied to the mechanics, then the 'next WOW' for you, will actually be a completely different game.
Because it seems, I don't have a choice. "Stuff" included with CE's are just part of the evolution of it all. It's not about this item is ok but the next one isn't. It's that, should they go that route, I know where it evenutally ends. It's not about a free pass, it's about where does it start and where does it stop. If it stops "here" I can live with it, but setting foot down "that path" taking one more step and one more step, I'm not walking down a road that I know where it ends.
How can you not know that EVE is older than WoW?
The problem with sandbox vs themepark is that all the themepark games are AAA with huge advertisments. The total money spent into themepark vs sandbox might be in 99:1 ratio.
REALITY CHECK
Ditto. I'm continuing to play because there's nothing else out there for me. I'm NOT going back to SWTOR. I don't relish the idea of playing WoW again. I've pretty much played Eve every possible way. As you said, thank god for the B2P business model. I can log on as much or as little as I want. Or I can take 6 months off and come back.
What my friends and I are the MOST disappointed by was how quickly the shine wore off. I played SWTOR for a good 4-6 months before I started having the 'eff this crap' feeling. We're just hitting the 2mo mark for GW2 (early release) and we've been rather frustrated for several weeks now.
Oh, and for all the wonderful listening and general cooperative relationship between ANet and the community in the past (GW1, the GW2 betas) once the game went live, they executed a series of PR moves that were relationship kryptonite. I'm beginning to develop a chronic urge to punch Jon Peters in the face and I *KNOW* I'm not alone.