Originally posted by QSatu This site was for a very long time in favor of sandbox games. The question is, are those games going to get the numbers of themeparks? I have my doubts. most of them won't reach aaa themepark quality and will be abandoned just as fast as all other games.
That is why Sandbox worlds need to be the domain of Indie developers. Once you build the world and the tools you can throw people into it and let them create their own adventures.
If you keep overhead low, you can keep the game growing slowly with a small set of players. Continue to grow tools that allow you to interact with the world.
It is perfect for F2P models: you allow the big stuff to be purchasable only via cash. People will pay for it to build a castle that they can control. You just need to give the world purpose: an ultimate end goal, possibility of perma death (server death or character death) and the tools to create intrigue.
People will love to interact in such an environment. And a developer could make a lot of money off of it if they court the people who have free cash.
Lord of Ultima is a perfect example where the whales (50 or so per server) run alliances and the f2p players try and latch on to the most powerful whales in hope of achieving the end of a server with a 1st place crown. It works perfectly: the game has been around for years now and the servers are still busy with 1000s of players: I think they are over 100 worlds now including the foreign worlds.
Originally posted by QSatu This site was for a very long time in favor of sandbox games. The question is, are those games going to get the numbers of themeparks? I have my doubts. most of them won't reach aaa themepark quality and will be abandoned just as fast as all other games.
That is why Sandbox worlds need to be the domain of Indie developers. Once you build the world and the tools you can throw people into it and let them create their own adventures.
If you keep overhead low, you can keep the game growing slowly with a small set of players. Continue to grow tools that allow you to interact with the world.
It is perfect for F2P models: you allow the big stuff to be purchasable only via cash. People will pay for it to build a castle that they can control. You just need to give the world purpose: an ultimate end goal, possibility of perma death (server death or character death) and the tools to create intrigue.
People will love to interact in such an environment. And a developer could make a lot of money off of it if they court the people who have free cash.
Lord of Ultima is a perfect example where the whales (50 or so per server) run alliances and the f2p players try and latch on to the most powerful whales in hope of achieving the end of a server with a 1st place crown. It works perfectly: the game has been around for years now and the servers are still busy with 1000s of players: I think they are over 100 worlds now including the foreign worlds.
Those tools are laboring and expensive to develop, if you want it done right. It is why sandbox has become synonymous with featureless. These indie developers try, but always fall short.
With the influx of all the sandbox style games coming out we will soon see how viable they actually are, or even if they can last. I wonder if there are enough sandbox players to flesh out all the new games to have a healthy population.
You've been here long enough to know the answer is that there has always been a very vocal "sandbox" contigent here.
However a shift is in order because the success of WoW has had too amny bandwagon juimpers and made the MMORPG world less diverse.I liek others don't care what labels you put on a MMORPG only that it is fun but we've definitely seen to much concentratation on certain kinds of mechanics due to blizzard's run away success.
There also aren't any major themepark MMOs in development at the moment that aren't South East Asian based which is traditionally even less popular here in the West.
But yeah, MMORPG.com members have typically been more sandbox oriented, at least the most vocal.
Originally posted by Fearum With the influx of all the sandbox style games coming out we will soon see how viable they actually are, or even if they can last. I wonder if there are enough sandbox players to flesh out all the new games to have a healthy population.
The first AAA quality MMORPG that gets sandbox right will be huge and last a long time. There is only enough room in the market for one big one though. The ones that come after will be called 'clones' and won't do very well. There is a lot of pressure on these sandbox MMORPGs to be first and also do it right.
being in to sandbox mmo's is the cool thing to want, but the sandbox crowd has yet to be satisfied with any current sandbox offerings, kind of like the pvp crowd.. I honestly dont think any 1 game can/will ever satisfy. its like an ideal to dream about...at least until some builds a real holodeck!
SW:TOR was a huge blow for themepark games. It was easily one of the most anticipated themeparks in the last few years, and with the huge budget expected to become a major hit with fantastic features.
Needless to say, it did not live up to the expectations.
As for TESO. Dislike of themeparks might be a factor in TESO's lack of hype. However I suspect the issues run deeper than that.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Some users have already mentioned this but i'll reinforce it:
1)There aren't many major themeparks in development at the moment.
2)Many people on this website are already being overly critical of The Eldar Scrolls Online - much more so then GW2, Tera, and SWTOR when those games were in beta.
3)The vocal minority who have been disappointed with everygame released in the last 8 year (and will probably continue to be disappointed..) are trying to blame themepark mmos for the current state of the mmorpg genre. In reality, there have been multiple sandbox mmos released as well, but they just get nitpicky and start listing reasons why they aren't playing those sandboxes, saying things like
A)They aren't 'true sandboxes'
B)they have annoying features (ex: FFA pvp).
I think it really comes down to the fact that there's pretty much no way to please the players lost in nostalgia.
The sandbox / thempark dichotomy is distgusting. Most of the games people call themeparks are really just unimaginative games that strive to be like WoW. There are games that people call themeparks that are good, but they are never talked about.
I have always preferred sandboxes. Very few themeparks are near the fun of a good sandbox. I am still currently playing EQ2 but that is also because of the lack of options. I just recently cancelled my EVE account but that provided me some years of fun.
Until a sandbox MMO releases that is even TERA level of quality we'll never know what potential it really has. Then again look at Minecraft and how popular that game is. It's not an MMO but shows the want to play a sandbox a "true" sandbox.
The current sentiment for themepark MMOs I think comes from the model getting stale. Sure, there are many, many themepark titles out there so they dominate the market but other than a coat of paint what differences are there? The F2P conversions plus a multitude of titles equals ravenging players always eating but never satisfied.
I don't think sandbox games are the answer. As much as I like to play Minecraft I like it more with RPG mods I think the next two years will see a handful of titles that will not only be fun and user friendly but also worth sticking around for long term.
I don;t clasify games by these 2 silly words. The game either has a lot of functions in game or it does not. There is no such thing as themepark. this isnt rollercoaster tycoon.
Hero Evermore Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982. Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
Features and how well they work as a whole in a game are far more important to me than vague and extremely broad labels that could mean anything depending on a person's point of view.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if all of these upcoming "sandboxes" end up making the same mistakes as various other MMOs in the past, in that they try to appeal to too many different groups, and as a result their features end up being extremely halfassed, or the worlds they make end up being incredibly boring/poorly designed.
You know what is funny, that I hated Korean MMOs before Archeage, and I used them as an example on how not to make a MMO.
In 10 years "career" the only Korean (or Asian) MMO I spent money on so far is Tera, generally I unistall them within few hours.
So the fact that today the game I am most excited about is Archeage, surprise more myself than anything.
I am truly fed up of doing what developers want me to do in their game, I really need some freedom
I believe that EQ3 will change the MMO industry, if Smedley is not talking BS as his usual (promising a Sandbox and delivering Hello Kitty Online).
The future is bright, the future is Sandbox.
Wait, you trust Smedley?
Let me preface what I'm about to say with some background. I hate SOE. Smedly and his entire SWG crapshoot upset me enough that I have not owned a sony product in years. I don't mean a SOE game. I refuse to house anything with a Sony logo. No TVs, no DVD players, no Sony ANYTHING.
I do not trust Smedly. However....
He IS probably the most desperate person alive in terms of needing to do something to undo all the years of failure and reinvent himself as a power player in the MMO market. Perhaps enough so to actually take a daring risk, and really push for something innovative. It would, quite literally, be the only card he has left to play as his saving grace. And save it would, because bringing us even a taste of what made SWG a good game back into the market with a full scale AAA backing would do wonders.
So I do think he is the most likely person to take such an undertaking seriously and, I hope, follow it through. Its probably his last ditch effort to even matter to us anymore. I'm certain he realizes that he needs to do something. At this point even having his name NEAR a game is a death sentence. I'm sure he loves his job and wants to stay important to the MMO world. If he pulled this off, his name would carry more weight than any of the old legends because most of them have already proven to be horrid failures in the current market.
... Is it that the members of this site are actually Sandboxers at heart or maybe people are truly bored of Themeparks (TESO/Neverwinter to name few)? ...
Bored people. Half of the people (or even more ;-) posting on these sandbox threads have never played a sandbox, couldn't survive in a sandbox game for more than 2 hours and are just throwing a word around. Heck, plenty of people called GW2 a sandbox.
Frankly, they don't know better. I see them in Wurm every day.
Newbie: "Help, what should I do now?" Old player: "What do you want to do?" Newbie: "I don't know. LOLOLOL. Where can I kill stuff? "
Yes, it always makes me laugh when people say they don't like player generated content because professional writers are better, not realising that the content in a sandbox is the interactions between the players and not some fan fiction quest.
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
... Is it that the members of this site are actually Sandboxers at heart or maybe people are truly bored of Themeparks (TESO/Neverwinter to name few)? ...
Bored people. Half of the people (or even more ;-) posting on these sandbox threads have never played a sandbox, couldn't survive in a sandbox game for more than 2 hours and are just throwing a word around. Heck, plenty of people called GW2 a sandbox.
Frankly, they don't know better. I see them in Wurm every day.
Newbie: "Help, what should I do now?" Old player: "What do you want to do?" Newbie: "I don't know. LOLOLOL. Where can I kill stuff? "
Yes, it always makes me laugh when people say they don't like player generated content because professional writers are better, not realising that the content in a sandbox is the interactions between the players and not some fan fiction quest.
And that is a problem with sandboxes.
People (some) even dislke raiding because it requires one to interact with a substantial number of people instead of a small group of friends you can interact with while playing.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Personally I like sandboxes, themeparks and hybrids, I just want a fun game. But themeparks have been worse and worse with telling us exactly what to do at all times and that is kinda annoying, older themeparks often had nasty surprises and stuff you had to figure out for yourself.
Still, I think it more have to do with most devs have the idea that themeparks more or less must be as close to Wow as possible instead of trying new ideas as they did in the past.
One thing this forums member often have in common is that most here played MMOs for a long time and when most themeparks gets too close to Wow it lowers their score here.
GW2 is still the top voted MMO here and it is a themepark.
People (some) even dislke raiding because it requires one to interact with a substantial number of people instead of a small group of friends you can interact with while playing.
It is not so strange really. The more people in your group the less room for you...
Small goups have its advantages just like large groups do and some people prefer one or the other.
Personally I think both are fun but different, I do however know many RPers that prefer small groups.
Originally posted by HeroEvermore I don;t clasify games by these 2 silly words. The game either has a lot of functions in game or it does not. There is no such thing as themepark. this isnt rollercoaster tycoon.
a themepark tycoon MMO....is that on kickstarter yet?!?
Im whatever guy.IF there is solid themepark or solid sandbox i will play 1 of them or both.Just with newly mmorpgs coming out now and people "evolve" in what they want from their games ,have expectations for somethink different that wow style game level system and progression wich is kinda linear for those most old gamers present..Now games like Minecraft or Skyrim really up the bar for what mmos can be turn into.Myself after playing minecraft with friend on survival map i really enjoyed and than i started searchin games similar with it wich they lack atm.Now games like Aion,Lotro,Rift are amazingly linear and boring.Thats what games should not be in future but more openly world,i can think of Archage/Eve/ atm.GuildWars 2 i dnt want to put it here cause its going to linear ones.I really hope for future when someone say MMORPG to think bout the world how big is and the risk of exploring it,games like startup zone u get first quest than u walk on road and next corner another quest should be shutdown wich wont hapen oufcourse.
Comments
That is why Sandbox worlds need to be the domain of Indie developers. Once you build the world and the tools you can throw people into it and let them create their own adventures.
If you keep overhead low, you can keep the game growing slowly with a small set of players. Continue to grow tools that allow you to interact with the world.
It is perfect for F2P models: you allow the big stuff to be purchasable only via cash. People will pay for it to build a castle that they can control. You just need to give the world purpose: an ultimate end goal, possibility of perma death (server death or character death) and the tools to create intrigue.
People will love to interact in such an environment. And a developer could make a lot of money off of it if they court the people who have free cash.
Lord of Ultima is a perfect example where the whales (50 or so per server) run alliances and the f2p players try and latch on to the most powerful whales in hope of achieving the end of a server with a 1st place crown. It works perfectly: the game has been around for years now and the servers are still busy with 1000s of players: I think they are over 100 worlds now including the foreign worlds.
Those tools are laboring and expensive to develop, if you want it done right. It is why sandbox has become synonymous with featureless. These indie developers try, but always fall short.
You've been here long enough to know the answer is that there has always been a very vocal "sandbox" contigent here.
However a shift is in order because the success of WoW has had too amny bandwagon juimpers and made the MMORPG world less diverse.I liek others don't care what labels you put on a MMORPG only that it is fun but we've definitely seen to much concentratation on certain kinds of mechanics due to blizzard's run away success.
There also aren't any major themepark MMOs in development at the moment that aren't South East Asian based which is traditionally even less popular here in the West.
But yeah, MMORPG.com members have typically been more sandbox oriented, at least the most vocal.
Also you can make a good themepark as an indie - daoc.
The first AAA quality MMORPG that gets sandbox right will be huge and last a long time. There is only enough room in the market for one big one though. The ones that come after will be called 'clones' and won't do very well. There is a lot of pressure on these sandbox MMORPGs to be first and also do it right.
SW:TOR was a huge blow for themepark games. It was easily one of the most anticipated themeparks in the last few years, and with the huge budget expected to become a major hit with fantastic features.
Needless to say, it did not live up to the expectations.
As for TESO. Dislike of themeparks might be a factor in TESO's lack of hype. However I suspect the issues run deeper than that.
Some users have already mentioned this but i'll reinforce it:
1)There aren't many major themeparks in development at the moment.
2)Many people on this website are already being overly critical of The Eldar Scrolls Online - much more so then GW2, Tera, and SWTOR when those games were in beta.
3)The vocal minority who have been disappointed with everygame released in the last 8 year (and will probably continue to be disappointed..) are trying to blame themepark mmos for the current state of the mmorpg genre. In reality, there have been multiple sandbox mmos released as well, but they just get nitpicky and start listing reasons why they aren't playing those sandboxes, saying things like
A)They aren't 'true sandboxes'
B)they have annoying features (ex: FFA pvp).
I think it really comes down to the fact that there's pretty much no way to please the players lost in nostalgia.
Sandbox is the new "carrot on a stick" for all the sheeple to chase, hoping to fill their little sheeple gullets.
Simple as that.
The current sentiment for themepark MMOs I think comes from the model getting stale. Sure, there are many, many themepark titles out there so they dominate the market but other than a coat of paint what differences are there? The F2P conversions plus a multitude of titles equals ravenging players always eating but never satisfied.
I don't think sandbox games are the answer. As much as I like to play Minecraft I like it more with RPG mods
Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
Features and how well they work as a whole in a game are far more important to me than vague and extremely broad labels that could mean anything depending on a person's point of view.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if all of these upcoming "sandboxes" end up making the same mistakes as various other MMOs in the past, in that they try to appeal to too many different groups, and as a result their features end up being extremely halfassed, or the worlds they make end up being incredibly boring/poorly designed.
Let me preface what I'm about to say with some background. I hate SOE. Smedly and his entire SWG crapshoot upset me enough that I have not owned a sony product in years. I don't mean a SOE game. I refuse to house anything with a Sony logo. No TVs, no DVD players, no Sony ANYTHING.
I do not trust Smedly. However....
He IS probably the most desperate person alive in terms of needing to do something to undo all the years of failure and reinvent himself as a power player in the MMO market. Perhaps enough so to actually take a daring risk, and really push for something innovative. It would, quite literally, be the only card he has left to play as his saving grace. And save it would, because bringing us even a taste of what made SWG a good game back into the market with a full scale AAA backing would do wonders.
So I do think he is the most likely person to take such an undertaking seriously and, I hope, follow it through. Its probably his last ditch effort to even matter to us anymore. I'm certain he realizes that he needs to do something. At this point even having his name NEAR a game is a death sentence. I'm sure he loves his job and wants to stay important to the MMO world. If he pulled this off, his name would carry more weight than any of the old legends because most of them have already proven to be horrid failures in the current market.
Yes, it always makes me laugh when people say they don't like player generated content because professional writers are better, not realising that the content in a sandbox is the interactions between the players and not some fan fiction quest.
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
And that is a problem with sandboxes.
People (some) even dislke raiding because it requires one to interact with a substantial number of people instead of a small group of friends you can interact with while playing.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Personally I like sandboxes, themeparks and hybrids, I just want a fun game. But themeparks have been worse and worse with telling us exactly what to do at all times and that is kinda annoying, older themeparks often had nasty surprises and stuff you had to figure out for yourself.
Still, I think it more have to do with most devs have the idea that themeparks more or less must be as close to Wow as possible instead of trying new ideas as they did in the past.
One thing this forums member often have in common is that most here played MMOs for a long time and when most themeparks gets too close to Wow it lowers their score here.
GW2 is still the top voted MMO here and it is a themepark.
It is not so strange really. The more people in your group the less room for you...
Small goups have its advantages just like large groups do and some people prefer one or the other.
Personally I think both are fun but different, I do however know many RPers that prefer small groups.
a themepark tycoon MMO....is that on kickstarter yet?!?
Im whatever guy.IF there is solid themepark or solid sandbox i will play 1 of them or both.Just with newly mmorpgs coming out now and people "evolve" in what they want from their games ,have expectations for somethink different that wow style game level system and progression wich is kinda linear for those most old gamers present..Now games like Minecraft or Skyrim really up the bar for what mmos can be turn into.Myself after playing minecraft with friend on survival map i really enjoyed and than i started searchin games similar with it wich they lack atm.Now games like Aion,Lotro,Rift are amazingly linear and boring.Thats what games should not be in future but more openly world,i can think of Archage/Eve/ atm.GuildWars 2 i dnt want to put it here cause its going to linear ones.I really hope for future when someone say MMORPG to think bout the world how big is and the risk of exploring it,games like startup zone u get first quest than u walk on road and next corner another quest should be shutdown wich wont hapen oufcourse.
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