I believe that the sandbox market is growing which is supported by relatively high number of sandbox games coming out in next a few years.
Themeparks, on the other hand, lack innovation. Just look at themeparks released since WoW. I do not count games like PS 2 among MMORPGs. For me, it is simply shooter like Battlefield or CoD just in a massive scale. It is a good game though.
To me it seems logical that for part of the community, themeparks are becoming less popular. I used to like them a lot 5-6 years ago, but now I wouldnt play any of the current "standard themeparks" (swtor, tera, rift, GW2,..) even if they paid me.
On this forum, it may seem that everyone loves sandboxes and hates themeparks, but I think that the sandbox crowd is just a vocal minority. The themepark crowd is happily playing their games as they have plenty of games to choose from.
But yes, I think there is a shift in preferences for part of the MMORPG community. The fact that quite many sandbox games are going to be released clearly supports it since they would unlikely be spending millions of dollars on a game for which there would not be sufficient demand / market.
I don't think so. We still don't know how these games will translate, example Archage from Korean to English as well as the publishers for the games. Right now, all these game are on 'ultra-hype' mode on this site. We shall see if they garner attention of all the gaming public or if they die a death of being ignored. If you base your expectations on members of this site, then Sandbox games will do well. If you assume a vocal minority, like this site is, then they won't do well.
We shall see, but after all the hype of the past couple of years on MMO's coming out, I am from Missouri, I will believe it when I see it and not before. Hoping for the best, prepared for the worst.
Well looking at the list of the most hyped MMOs in development the top 6 are Sandboxes.
Popular IPs like TES and Neverwinter can't even match the popularity of Earthrise(what?) and Darkfall, which are old games repackaged.
And the Top spot is taken by a Korean MMO which is not even released in its original country and which might take another 2 years to get to the NA/EU/OZ, how crazy is that?
Is it that the members of this site are actually Sandboxers at heart or maybe people are truly bored of Themeparks (TESO/Neverwinter to name few)?
Personally I would pay $15 a month to play the Korean Beta of Archeage.........and I am deadly serious
Sites like MMORPG.com are generally populated more by the sandbox and modder community than other gamer types. Sites like this are basically the watering hole or hangout spot for these types. There are typical themepark players here and a lot of them but this isn't the type of site that generally brings them in.
If this were pretty much any other site WoW would be heralded as the king of MMOs. Here it's a dirty word more often than not.
There is a bit of shift happening as well though. More developers are looking at sandbox style games and mechanics/features due to whats been happening with the latest themepark releases. The "Sure Thing" has proven to be a lie for most developers and publishers.
I could be wrong, but I followed other modders and sandbox players here years ago and in my experience over those years it seems to be primarily modders and sandbox players.
Though I may be primarily a sandbox player that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a well done themepark game though
MMO RPG. That's the site. Read the anagrams slowly, it neither says themepark nor sandbox.
We seek good games...we will roar in adulation when we find them, and will denounce them if they aren't.
Over the history of the mmorpgs released there has yet to be a 'good' game that wasn't destroyed by ridiculous whims of dev teams, balance issues, promises never made/kept, etc...
Pretty sure what drives this community is finding the perfect game, it would have elements of many titles and ideals. Personally I'm looking for Sword Art Online...without the death part.
Until then though, playing EQ1, hoping for GW2 to address culling, and awaiting Neverwinter, which will probably fill my heart as an old school P+P player before these keyboards came about.
I have been a long time MMO player. I will say I do like my sandbox MMO from time to time, the problem with sandbox is this. The players generate the content, and with today’s MMO players they don’t really generate content anymore. People can say that Sandbox mmos are the larger group of MMO players however that is not true at all. Look at WoW they had 12 million subscriptions to UO which only capped out at 300K. WoW is a themepark mmo not a sandbox and just this fact shows that themepark MMOs are more popular. The problem though is they become stale and no longer innovative.
Just the other day I was on the Rift forums talking about raid scaling to allow 12 or 16 people into a 20 man raid and still be able to down content. Why simple; more and more MMO players are tired of the same dry old MMO content. However you get these hardheaded MMO players that say that it’s impossible to scale complex raid bosses and if a raid boss is not complex then it’s easy. This mentality in an MMO is what is truly killing MMOs. Not Themepark not Sandbox, just the average MMO continues to be a cookie cutter MMO from the last MMO. So people no longer want to play.
Sorry HardCore raiders but you are getting shot down here. Raiding is fun, raiding is something that should be open to many people. It should also become more accepting of player ranges instead of strict if you don’t have 10 or 20 or 25 or 40 people you cannot raid. Back in EQ you had unlimited man raids, why simple MMOs want to get more people involved in its content. Allowing only 1% of the entire population of a game to ever see a raid boss will not endear your customers. So if you want a hardcore raiding niche game go play one, do not play a game with 12 million subs because they are going to make it so as many people can see and down the content they paid for. I am also not talking about soloing a raid, I am talking about joining a non LFR raid and learning the content which may only have 3 mechanics to each phase.
Now on to the Sandbox part of MMOs because having more of a sandbox to play in will allow the themepark part of an MMO not to get run through in a month or 2. Having open crafting systems like UO and SWG had added to a Hybrid MMO would add so much more. Having a few classes meant only for the Sandbox part of an MMO can be fun. For example put a treasure hunter into a game like UO had, the THunter is basically useless in raids however it gives players that want to do something other than raid for a night, or instances to play the MMO they love. Also allow a player to make a Mule that will do all the crafting in game, guess what you added a sandbox element to a game that has multiple possibilities that yea maybe they cannot make Tier raid gear but maybe they can make sandbox character gear.
The truth is my friends (Well over 100 I played with since my days of UO in 1998) have left MMOs because their Lack of innovation when it comes to the world, as well as raiding and instances. Yes some of them want easier content like they had in Vanilla WoW and BC, they hate how everytime they go into a new Themepark game they say let’s CC 1 or 2 mobs on this pull then you get a wipe and people leave the group. Anyone that played in Vanilla and BC knew CC and almost never died. If people wanted to play a faceroll game they would play Diablo.
Truth, we need a Hybrid MMO because both Themepark and Sandbox elements alone are no longer able to keep the population happy. We need a game that has both that also understand that the Average age of the MMO player is 34+ making time more valuable to these players. MMOs are no longer the more time you put in the better you should be; because you will not make money because it caters to the unemployed or working adults. (example 1) You can have 20 mobs each being an AoE fest going from Boss A to Boss B taking you 20 minutes to get there. (example 2) Or you can have 5 mobs where you CC 1 or 2 and it takes you 5 minutes to get to boss B. Example 2 Teaches players to understand their class and work in a group and is more preferable than thinking more time equals a better player.
I have been a long time MMO player. I will say I do like my sandbox MMO from time to time, the problem with sandbox is this. The players generate the content, and with today’s MMO players they don’t really generate content anymore. People can say that Sandbox mmos are the larger group of MMO players however that is not true at all. Look at WoW they had 12 million subscriptions to UO which only capped out at 300K. WoW is a themepark mmo not a sandbox and just this fact shows that themepark MMOs are more popular. The problem though is they become stale and no longer innovative.
Just the other day I was on the Rift forums talking about raid scaling to allow 12 or 16 people into a 20 man raid and still be able to down content. Why simple; more and more MMO players are tired of the same dry old MMO content. However you get these hardheaded MMO players that say that it’s impossible to scale complex raid bosses and if a raid boss is not complex then it’s easy. This mentality in an MMO is what is truly killing MMOs. Not Themepark not Sandbox, just the average MMO continues to be a cookie cutter MMO from the last MMO. So people no longer want to play.
Sorry HardCore raiders but you are getting shot down here. Raiding is fun, raiding is something that should be open to many people. It should also become more accepting of player ranges instead of strict if you don’t have 10 or 20 or 25 or 40 people you cannot raid. Back in EQ you had unlimited man raids, why simple MMOs want to get more people involved in its content. Allowing only 1% of the entire population of a game to ever see a raid boss will not endear your customers. So if you want a hardcore raiding niche game go play one, do not play a game with 12 million subs because they are going to make it so as many people can see and down the content they paid for. I am also not talking about soloing a raid, I am talking about joining a non LFR raid and learning the content which may only have 3 mechanics to each phase.
Now on to the Sandbox part of MMOs because having more of a sandbox to play in will allow the themepark part of an MMO not to get run through in a month or 2. Having open crafting systems like UO and SWG had added to a Hybrid MMO would add so much more. Having a few classes meant only for the Sandbox part of an MMO can be fun. For example put a treasure hunter into a game like UO had, the THunter is basically useless in raids however it gives players that want to do something other than raid for a night, or instances to play the MMO they love. Also allow a player to make a Mule that will do all the crafting in game, guess what you added a sandbox element to a game that has multiple possibilities that yea maybe they cannot make Tier raid gear but maybe they can make sandbox character gear.
The truth is my friends (Well over 100 I played with since my days of UO in 1998) have left MMOs because their Lack of innovation when it comes to the world, as well as raiding and instances. Yes some of them want easier content like they had in Vanilla WoW and BC, they hate how everytime they go into a new Themepark game they say let’s CC 1 or 2 mobs on this pull then you get a wipe and people leave the group. Anyone that played in Vanilla and BC knew CC and almost never died. If people wanted to play a faceroll game they would play Diablo.
Truth, we need a Hybrid MMO because both Themepark and Sandbox elements alone are no longer able to keep the population happy. We need a game that has both that also understand that the Average age of the MMO player is 34+ making time more valuable to these players. MMOs are no longer the more time you put in the better you should be; because you will not make money because it caters to the unemployed or working adults. (example 1) You can have 20 mobs each being an AoE fest going from Boss A to Boss B taking you 20 minutes to get there. (example 2) Or you can have 5 mobs where you CC 1 or 2 and it takes you 5 minutes to get to boss B. Example 2 Teaches players to understand their class and work in a group and is more preferable than thinking more time equals a better player.
A hybrid MMO is now leading the way in population numbers.
Age Of Wushu has upwards of 20,000,000 players, it's the biggest game in china.
It's also a hybrid where sandbox features far exceed the themepark features.
the "playfield" of today's mmos are too narrow people are getting bored and hyping everything that has a wider "playfield"
the idea of a narrow "playfield" was to trick people into spending more $ than they are willing to spend,making then get in the game quicker and spending more money than they willing to spend(buying 1 years/lifetime sub then quiting 2 months later,buying character transfers,flying mounts etc...) ,someday this would backfire and companies would need to find another ways,this is what is happening now(i think).
I've turned my back on all games, I only play games that look promising to experience the mindset of those who made them. Sandbox or not they all show a disappointing lack of vision, passion and sense. Money should never be the goal when making anything remotely artistic, just a useful side effect.
If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?
Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?
If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?
i wouldnt consider those games all sandbox. but its good, finally, that we also get some more sandboxy games in the near future.
for me, a sandbox is an open seamless world with absolutley no instances. you can build wherever you want, but you have to count in people or mobs who want to destroy what you build.
you can be a merchant, a thief, a fighter, politician, murder, hero, constructor, crafter, tamer, gatherer, socialicer......
players can give quests, and there are only random npc quests to do
day and nigh cycle, and an alive world with npcs who do their things, own their house or appartment, sleep there....
and there must be evil npcs too, mobs and monsters, and evil players. of course some kind of world bosses or raid mobs, but those only gm played.
my idea would be playable mobs too. you gain exp while playing a rat and when you level up, you can be a wolf and some day perhaps a world boss?!
I love your creativity! Especially playable npc idea where you can grow in strength/ability and eventually become a world boss if you lived long enough.
I agree with the previous posts about allowing players to have NPC roles. NPCs are the reason themepark cities and towns are dead.
Themeparks are combat oriented.
End Game should be about choice. Let me be a doctor, a cantina dancer, or a barkeep (I dont need combat skills). Let me set up shop in the middle of a city and have my customers form a single file line for my service.
I think it would be every SWTOR player's wet dream to be a hutt and sit on your ass all day, assigning bounty quests and laundering money.
Themeparks make you go to npcs to repair your gear, a good MMO would have repairs and wounds managed by fellow players.
Professions and Classes should not be seperate choices.
It's no surprise that a forum like this seems to draw a lot of people interested in "sandbox" style games. The fact is that the games industry is not doing a good job of serving their needs, and the underserved are necessarily vocal about their dissatisfaction. There are plenty of solid games out there that would be considered "themepark" style. The people who are happy with WoW, Rift et al are busy playing their games. It's the disenfranchised who are looking for avenue to speak out, so they come here.
On a personal level I just want to see developers push outside of their comfort zone. I feel like the MMOG has so much unrealized potential and we've barely scratched the surface. So do I want to see a great "sandbox" game made? Absolutely. Will it be the be-all end-all of gaming? Don't know. If not we'll have learned a valuable lesson from the experience, one that can inform all kinds of online games going forward.
I don't consider perma-death or full loot pvp to be sandbox features. But that's the problem with the term though, not everyone agrees on what sandbox even is.
To me it's an open world, and player directed activity as opposed to endless questing. I also like skill based advancement, the ability to mix and match skills, non combat professions apart from crafting, deep crafting systems, housing, player created cities, etc.
It's not for everyone. But then not everything is for everyone. We've had several large budget themeparks that came after WOW, and we haven't had that big budget sandbox to really give the genre a chance. Some people will say that is because of lack of demand, but I think it's lack of courage in a corporate culture that doesn't want to step outside the box.
You are sorta right.
Permadeath and full loot are not sandbox exclusives, because they can put into a theme park. However here is where I disagree: looting is certainly a sandbox feature.
Remember, a true sandbox MMO essentially puts a character into a world and allows the character the most freedom as possible. Everytime a sandbox feature removes the ability to interact with the environment (as in, you can't loot the equipment off of something you've clearly killed) is a sandbox element removed.
Permanent death, whether it be 1 death, 10 deaths, 1000 deaths, is as much a staple of themeparks as it is in any sandbox. Almost every arcade game we played as kids has permadeath. Lives were finite. It is not a sandbox feature either as a perfectly reasonable sandbox can be built without permadeath.
That being said, permadeath in a sandbox MMO is well worth entertaining as a game characteristic. It is the easiest carrot to dangle and to commoditize (to implement that is, perhaps not to balance).
Well looking at the list of the most hyped MMOs in development the top 6 are Sandboxes.
Popular IPs like TES and Neverwinter can't even match the popularity of Earthrise(what?) and Darkfall, which are old games repackaged.
That IS just this website and hype means NOTHING in the end...TSW had massive "hype" and look what it got them.
Personally I dont care if a game is sandboxed if the overall game sucks (SWG) just like I dont care if a game is themepark or not if the overall package is weak (SWTOR).
I would much rather have an SWTOR, with SWGs open world and crafting without the horrible gathering method. The world can be open, with a story/dungeon/themepark being instanced outside that open world. It gives the sandbox freedom of an open world as well as a story and set things to do for those that want it outside that open world.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Well looking at the list of the most hyped MMOs in development the top 6 are Sandboxes.
Popular IPs like TES and Neverwinter can't even match the popularity of Earthrise(what?) and Darkfall, which are old games repackaged.
That IS just this website and hype means NOTHING in the end...TSW had massive "hype" and look what it got them.
Personally I dont care if a game is sandboxed if the overall game sucks (SWG) just like I dont care if a game is themepark or not if the overall package is weak (SWTOR).
I would much rather have an SWTOR, with SWGs open world and crafting without the horrible gathering method. The world can be open, with a story/dungeon/themepark being instanced outside that open world. It gives the sandbox freedom of an open world as well as a story and set things to do for those that want it outside that open world.
hmm you just said something that made me think.. I know it's not the direction you were going, but you mention open world and dungeon stuff.. What if? Bare with me on this... Open world dungeons and instance dungeons "co-exist".. Let me use old WoW as my example since I avoided SWTOR flashpoints like the plague..
Dugeon: Deadmines
The only way to zone into an "instanced" Deadmines is to queue up for it as a single player or group.. Everything here is the same.. I wouldn't change the loot tables, reputation points, etc etc.. So those people that like their private instanced zone, nothing will change for you.. It's business as usual..
HOWEVER, for people like me that like an open world adventure.. Make it so that when I run into the barn that takes me into the mine zone in.. It is an actual living and breathing open zone.. Regular trash mobs will be slightly nerfed so that 2 or 3 people can handle, but boss mobs stay full power needing 5+ to take down.. Zones mobs will respawn just like they do in Westfall , but the boss mobs will be on a random timer.. VanCleef may only spawn 2 to 4 times a day.. Same loot tables and rewards..
This way everyone gets what they want, without effecting the others.. I actually like my idea because I can be in the mines farming trash mobs for exp and loot and others in the mine with me can yell out "VanCleef is up", and all those in the zone can group up to take him down, then go back to business as usual.. or stay grouped up farming the zones until another "pop" comes up.. If you don't like the idea of losing out on killing VanCleef, then use the LFD / LFR tool and queue up as it is now..
If you ask anyone weather they want to play a game with vast open world, the freedom to do anything and be anything, unbound imagination, play a game like you are a character in for example game of throne. Pretty much most people will say ya, I want to play that.
But the reality is when the developer actually make that, people just complain about long travel time, monster, event either undoable since no one do them. Or boss mob being over camped. People who dont' want to be ganked getting ganked. Either FFA full loot pvp where many carebear shy away. Or unrewarding world pvp, since if it is rewarding, people just kill trade and exploit as much as possible. And don't get me started talking about class balance.
Ask anyone in GW2, weather they like open world or dungeon. Most will say open world. Yet the open world is always empty mainly because dungeon offer better rewards. Or even if the open world is more rewarding, people just camp the sphinx event, and everyone is trying to tag as much monster as possible to get the most drop. And there is no challenging in open world event since the only challenge is try to tag monster as fast as you can for better reward. Since if it is rewarding, everyone will be there. And if it is not rewarding no one ever do them.
Originally posted by coretex666>Dont get me wrong. In no way I would say that the sandboxes will be successful. ArcheAge may be the biggest fail in gaming history.I am saying that the fact that number of sandboxes that is being worked on is increasing is not a coincidence. The companies make their analysis, research first and if the result is that there is market for the new product, only then they start to work on it.
ArcheAge will in no way fail, it will get its development costs (25% of SWTOR costs) back from Korean sales alone, money coming in from the rest of the world will just be profit. Whether it will garner a large audience in the US or EU is a different question but it certainly will not be the "biggest fail in gaming history"
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
I believe that the sandbox market is growing which is supported by relatively high number of sandbox games coming out in next a few years.
Themeparks, on the other hand, lack innovation. Just look at themeparks released since WoW. I do not count games like PS 2 among MMORPGs. For me, it is simply shooter like Battlefield or CoD just in a massive scale. It is a good game though.
To me it seems logical that for part of the community, themeparks are becoming less popular. I used to like them a lot 5-6 years ago, but now I wouldnt play any of the current "standard themeparks" (swtor, tera, rift, GW2,..) even if they paid me.
On this forum, it may seem that everyone loves sandboxes and hates themeparks, but I think that the sandbox crowd is just a vocal minority. The themepark crowd is happily playing their games as they have plenty of games to choose from.
But yes, I think there is a shift in preferences for part of the MMORPG community. The fact that quite many sandbox games are going to be released clearly supports it since they would unlikely be spending millions of dollars on a game for which there would not be sufficient demand / market.
I don't think so. We still don't know how these games will translate, example Archage from Korean to English as well as the publishers for the games. Right now, all these game are on 'ultra-hype' mode on this site. We shall see if they garner attention of all the gaming public or if they die a death of being ignored. If you base your expectations on members of this site, then Sandbox games will do well. If you assume a vocal minority, like this site is, then they won't do well.
We shall see, but after all the hype of the past couple of years on MMO's coming out, I am from Missouri, I will believe it when I see it and not before. Hoping for the best, prepared for the worst.
Dont get me wrong. In no way I would say that the sandboxes will be successful. ArcheAge may be the biggest fail in gaming history.
I am saying that the fact that number of sandboxes that is being worked on is increasing is not a coincidence. The companies make their analysis, research first and if the result is that there is market for the new product, only then they start to work on it.
Whilst player feedback may be a factor I don't beleive it's the overriding factor in why there aere a number of "Sandbox" MMORPGs int he works. I just think that the developers in question have realised the extreme "Themepark" end of the amrket is totally saturated and so are looking to differentiate themselves from that overly populated part of the market by shifting closer to the extreme "sandbox" end.
I beleive that is the real factor here not a perceived shift in what gamers want.
If Rift was not the only reasonably sucessful themepark to release in the last few years I would agree that player preference hasn't changed. I think it has though, at least to some extent, and players want more. Things get stale if you do them enough and the mold just hasn't been that different. There is only one WoW and it's fans would rather play it than something similar without the same features/polish.
I think the term "sandbox" is throwing things off because of how polarizing it is here. Call it "bubblegum" if you want but the point is that bubblegum mechanics mixed with candy cane features could equal something sweet everyone can enjoy. Yeah... um, sorry I couldn't help it.
Adding features that deepen and create a vested interest on continuing to play are a great thing IMO.
i wouldnt consider those games all sandbox. but its good, finally, that we also get some more sandboxy games in the near future.
for me, a sandbox is an open seamless world with absolutley no instances. you can build wherever you want, but you have to count in people or mobs who want to destroy what you build.
you can be a merchant, a thief, a fighter, politician, murder, hero, constructor, crafter, tamer, gatherer, socialicer......
players can give quests, and there are only random npc quests to do
day and nigh cycle, and an alive world with npcs who do their things, own their house or appartment, sleep there....
and there must be evil npcs too, mobs and monsters, and evil players. of course some kind of world bosses or raid mobs, but those only gm played.
my idea would be playable mobs too. you gain exp while playing a rat and when you level up, you can be a wolf and some day perhaps a world boss?!
I love your creativity! Especially playable npc idea where you can grow in strength/ability and eventually become a world boss if you lived long enough.
This happens in Age Of Wushu with its offline system. When you log out in the game your character becomes an npc in the virtual world. He/she has a choice of 30 activitys that he can do in the world while you are offline.
Man your stall as a merchant or do activitys for your faction and be rewarded. All this
comes with its risks because you can also be kidnapped by pks who can sell you into slavery. This is a good way to make cash in the game , the more advanced the player you are kidnapping the more they are worth.
The pk who is doing the kidnapping is also risking a lot because they can be hunted down as well.
i wouldnt consider those games all sandbox. but its good, finally, that we also get some more sandboxy games in the near future.
for me, a sandbox is an open seamless world with absolutley no instances. you can build wherever you want, but you have to count in people or mobs who want to destroy what you build.
you can be a merchant, a thief, a fighter, politician, murder, hero, constructor, crafter, tamer, gatherer, socialicer......
players can give quests, and there are only random npc quests to do
day and nigh cycle, and an alive world with npcs who do their things, own their house or appartment, sleep there....
and there must be evil npcs too, mobs and monsters, and evil players. of course some kind of world bosses or raid mobs, but those only gm played.
my idea would be playable mobs too. you gain exp while playing a rat and when you level up, you can be a wolf and some day perhaps a world boss?!
I love your creativity! Especially playable npc idea where you can grow in strength/ability and eventually become a world boss if you lived long enough.
This happens in Age Of Wushu with its offline system. When you log out in the game your character becomes an npc in the virtual world. He/she has a choice of 30 activitys that he can do in the world while you are offline.
Man your stall as a merchant or do activitys for your faction and be rewarded. All this
comes with its risks because you can also be kidnapped by pks who can sell you into slavery. This is a good way to make cash in the game , the more advanced the player you are kidnapping the more they are worth.
The pk who is doing the kidnapping is also risking a lot because they can be hunted down as well.
There are safe places to go offline. if you do that in your school there is a good chance you wont get Kidnapped. I learned that the hard way, I logged out in a small town and woke up a prostitute and had to pay my way out. now i never log out anywhere but my School Emei.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
If you ask anyone weather they want to play a game with vast open world, the freedom to do anything and be anything, unbound imagination, play a game like you are a character in for example game of throne. Pretty much most people will say ya, I want to play that.
But the reality is when the developer actually make that, people just complain about long travel time, monster, event either undoable since no one do them. Or boss mob being over camped. People who dont' want to be ganked getting ganked. Either FFA full loot pvp where many carebear shy away. Or unrewarding world pvp, since if it is rewarding, people just kill trade and exploit as much as possible. And don't get me started talking about class balance.
Ask anyone in GW2, weather they like open world or dungeon. Most will say open world. Yet the open world is always empty mainly because dungeon offer better rewards. Or even if the open world is more rewarding, people just camp the sphinx event, and everyone is trying to tag as much monster as possible to get the most drop. And there is no challenging in open world event since the only challenge is try to tag monster as fast as you can for better reward. Since if it is rewarding, everyone will be there. And if it is not rewarding no one ever do them.
A lot of this has to do with over-romanticizing the open world concept. When you think abotu it Game Of Thrones is actually an extremely crappy world to live in no matter who you are. Similarly game concepts which sound great when you read about them, often turn out to be not-so-great when put into practice. In addition the repetive nature of MMORPG gameplay means that even the most epic things will become routine and trite if you repeat them enough times.
It does not help that as we play the game, we develope preferences for certain activities. If the activities you like require you to do activities you do not like then its easy for players to get disgruntled.
Comments
I don't think so. We still don't know how these games will translate, example Archage from Korean to English as well as the publishers for the games. Right now, all these game are on 'ultra-hype' mode on this site. We shall see if they garner attention of all the gaming public or if they die a death of being ignored. If you base your expectations on members of this site, then Sandbox games will do well. If you assume a vocal minority, like this site is, then they won't do well.
We shall see, but after all the hype of the past couple of years on MMO's coming out, I am from Missouri, I will believe it when I see it and not before. Hoping for the best, prepared for the worst.
Sites like MMORPG.com are generally populated more by the sandbox and modder community than other gamer types. Sites like this are basically the watering hole or hangout spot for these types. There are typical themepark players here and a lot of them but this isn't the type of site that generally brings them in.
If this were pretty much any other site WoW would be heralded as the king of MMOs. Here it's a dirty word more often than not.
There is a bit of shift happening as well though. More developers are looking at sandbox style games and mechanics/features due to whats been happening with the latest themepark releases. The "Sure Thing" has proven to be a lie for most developers and publishers.
I could be wrong, but I followed other modders and sandbox players here years ago and in my experience over those years it seems to be primarily modders and sandbox players.
Though I may be primarily a sandbox player that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a well done themepark game though
No.
MMO RPG. That's the site. Read the anagrams slowly, it neither says themepark nor sandbox.
We seek good games...we will roar in adulation when we find them, and will denounce them if they aren't.
Over the history of the mmorpgs released there has yet to be a 'good' game that wasn't destroyed by ridiculous whims of dev teams, balance issues, promises never made/kept, etc...
Pretty sure what drives this community is finding the perfect game, it would have elements of many titles and ideals. Personally I'm looking for Sword Art Online...without the death part.
Until then though, playing EQ1, hoping for GW2 to address culling, and awaiting Neverwinter, which will probably fill my heart as an old school P+P player before these keyboards came about.
I have been a long time MMO player. I will say I do like my sandbox MMO from time to time, the problem with sandbox is this. The players generate the content, and with today’s MMO players they don’t really generate content anymore. People can say that Sandbox mmos are the larger group of MMO players however that is not true at all. Look at WoW they had 12 million subscriptions to UO which only capped out at 300K. WoW is a themepark mmo not a sandbox and just this fact shows that themepark MMOs are more popular. The problem though is they become stale and no longer innovative.
Just the other day I was on the Rift forums talking about raid scaling to allow 12 or 16 people into a 20 man raid and still be able to down content. Why simple; more and more MMO players are tired of the same dry old MMO content. However you get these hardheaded MMO players that say that it’s impossible to scale complex raid bosses and if a raid boss is not complex then it’s easy. This mentality in an MMO is what is truly killing MMOs. Not Themepark not Sandbox, just the average MMO continues to be a cookie cutter MMO from the last MMO. So people no longer want to play.
Sorry HardCore raiders but you are getting shot down here. Raiding is fun, raiding is something that should be open to many people. It should also become more accepting of player ranges instead of strict if you don’t have 10 or 20 or 25 or 40 people you cannot raid. Back in EQ you had unlimited man raids, why simple MMOs want to get more people involved in its content. Allowing only 1% of the entire population of a game to ever see a raid boss will not endear your customers. So if you want a hardcore raiding niche game go play one, do not play a game with 12 million subs because they are going to make it so as many people can see and down the content they paid for. I am also not talking about soloing a raid, I am talking about joining a non LFR raid and learning the content which may only have 3 mechanics to each phase.
Now on to the Sandbox part of MMOs because having more of a sandbox to play in will allow the themepark part of an MMO not to get run through in a month or 2. Having open crafting systems like UO and SWG had added to a Hybrid MMO would add so much more. Having a few classes meant only for the Sandbox part of an MMO can be fun. For example put a treasure hunter into a game like UO had, the THunter is basically useless in raids however it gives players that want to do something other than raid for a night, or instances to play the MMO they love. Also allow a player to make a Mule that will do all the crafting in game, guess what you added a sandbox element to a game that has multiple possibilities that yea maybe they cannot make Tier raid gear but maybe they can make sandbox character gear.
The truth is my friends (Well over 100 I played with since my days of UO in 1998) have left MMOs because their Lack of innovation when it comes to the world, as well as raiding and instances. Yes some of them want easier content like they had in Vanilla WoW and BC, they hate how everytime they go into a new Themepark game they say let’s CC 1 or 2 mobs on this pull then you get a wipe and people leave the group. Anyone that played in Vanilla and BC knew CC and almost never died. If people wanted to play a faceroll game they would play Diablo.
Truth, we need a Hybrid MMO because both Themepark and Sandbox elements alone are no longer able to keep the population happy. We need a game that has both that also understand that the Average age of the MMO player is 34+ making time more valuable to these players. MMOs are no longer the more time you put in the better you should be; because you will not make money because it caters to the unemployed or working adults. (example 1) You can have 20 mobs each being an AoE fest going from Boss A to Boss B taking you 20 minutes to get there. (example 2) Or you can have 5 mobs where you CC 1 or 2 and it takes you 5 minutes to get to boss B. Example 2 Teaches players to understand their class and work in a group and is more preferable than thinking more time equals a better player.
I agree with the previous poster...we need a good hybrid. I see 2 coming out soon:
Archage and The Repopulation
There appear to be a few more, but not enough info on them yet.
I like sandbox games, I like themeparks, I would LOVE a hybrid.
A hybrid MMO is now leading the way in population numbers.
Age Of Wushu has upwards of 20,000,000 players, it's the biggest game in china.
It's also a hybrid where sandbox features far exceed the themepark features.
Plenty of info on age of wushu which also has a vast player base in china.
I like both...
There's nothing wrong with good rating for a good game.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
the "playfield" of today's mmos are too narrow people are getting bored and hyping everything that has a wider "playfield"
the idea of a narrow "playfield" was to trick people into spending more $ than they are willing to spend,making then get in the game quicker and spending more money than they willing to spend(buying 1 years/lifetime sub then quiting 2 months later,buying character transfers,flying mounts etc...) ,someday this would backfire and companies would need to find another ways,this is what is happening now(i think).
If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?
Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?
If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?
I love your creativity! Especially playable npc idea where you can grow in strength/ability and eventually become a world boss if you lived long enough.
Like daoc or EQ would be different enough and do well
Of course half the posters here would wrongly call it a sandbox.
People are just bored of wow style instanced endgame / city as lobby type themeparks
I agree with the previous posts about allowing players to have NPC roles. NPCs are the reason themepark cities and towns are dead.
Themeparks are combat oriented.
End Game should be about choice. Let me be a doctor, a cantina dancer, or a barkeep (I dont need combat skills). Let me set up shop in the middle of a city and have my customers form a single file line for my service.
I think it would be every SWTOR player's wet dream to be a hutt and sit on your ass all day, assigning bounty quests and laundering money.
Themeparks make you go to npcs to repair your gear, a good MMO would have repairs and wounds managed by fellow players.
Professions and Classes should not be seperate choices.
<<<BLOPES?>>>
It's no surprise that a forum like this seems to draw a lot of people interested in "sandbox" style games. The fact is that the games industry is not doing a good job of serving their needs, and the underserved are necessarily vocal about their dissatisfaction. There are plenty of solid games out there that would be considered "themepark" style. The people who are happy with WoW, Rift et al are busy playing their games. It's the disenfranchised who are looking for avenue to speak out, so they come here.
On a personal level I just want to see developers push outside of their comfort zone. I feel like the MMOG has so much unrealized potential and we've barely scratched the surface. So do I want to see a great "sandbox" game made? Absolutely. Will it be the be-all end-all of gaming? Don't know. If not we'll have learned a valuable lesson from the experience, one that can inform all kinds of online games going forward.
You are sorta right.
Permadeath and full loot are not sandbox exclusives, because they can put into a theme park. However here is where I disagree: looting is certainly a sandbox feature.
Remember, a true sandbox MMO essentially puts a character into a world and allows the character the most freedom as possible. Everytime a sandbox feature removes the ability to interact with the environment (as in, you can't loot the equipment off of something you've clearly killed) is a sandbox element removed.
Permanent death, whether it be 1 death, 10 deaths, 1000 deaths, is as much a staple of themeparks as it is in any sandbox. Almost every arcade game we played as kids has permadeath. Lives were finite. It is not a sandbox feature either as a perfectly reasonable sandbox can be built without permadeath.
That being said, permadeath in a sandbox MMO is well worth entertaining as a game characteristic. It is the easiest carrot to dangle and to commoditize (to implement that is, perhaps not to balance).
That IS just this website and hype means NOTHING in the end...TSW had massive "hype" and look what it got them.
Personally I dont care if a game is sandboxed if the overall game sucks (SWG) just like I dont care if a game is themepark or not if the overall package is weak (SWTOR).
I would much rather have an SWTOR, with SWGs open world and crafting without the horrible gathering method. The world can be open, with a story/dungeon/themepark being instanced outside that open world. It gives the sandbox freedom of an open world as well as a story and set things to do for those that want it outside that open world.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
hmm you just said something that made me think.. I know it's not the direction you were going, but you mention open world and dungeon stuff.. What if? Bare with me on this... Open world dungeons and instance dungeons "co-exist".. Let me use old WoW as my example since I avoided SWTOR flashpoints like the plague..
Dugeon: Deadmines
The only way to zone into an "instanced" Deadmines is to queue up for it as a single player or group.. Everything here is the same.. I wouldn't change the loot tables, reputation points, etc etc.. So those people that like their private instanced zone, nothing will change for you.. It's business as usual..
HOWEVER, for people like me that like an open world adventure.. Make it so that when I run into the barn that takes me into the mine zone in.. It is an actual living and breathing open zone.. Regular trash mobs will be slightly nerfed so that 2 or 3 people can handle, but boss mobs stay full power needing 5+ to take down.. Zones mobs will respawn just like they do in Westfall , but the boss mobs will be on a random timer.. VanCleef may only spawn 2 to 4 times a day.. Same loot tables and rewards..
This way everyone gets what they want, without effecting the others.. I actually like my idea because I can be in the mines farming trash mobs for exp and loot and others in the mine with me can yell out "VanCleef is up", and all those in the zone can group up to take him down, then go back to business as usual.. or stay grouped up farming the zones until another "pop" comes up.. If you don't like the idea of losing out on killing VanCleef, then use the LFD / LFR tool and queue up as it is now..
If you ask anyone weather they want to play a game with vast open world, the freedom to do anything and be anything, unbound imagination, play a game like you are a character in for example game of throne. Pretty much most people will say ya, I want to play that.
But the reality is when the developer actually make that, people just complain about long travel time, monster, event either undoable since no one do them. Or boss mob being over camped. People who dont' want to be ganked getting ganked. Either FFA full loot pvp where many carebear shy away. Or unrewarding world pvp, since if it is rewarding, people just kill trade and exploit as much as possible. And don't get me started talking about class balance.
Ask anyone in GW2, weather they like open world or dungeon. Most will say open world. Yet the open world is always empty mainly because dungeon offer better rewards. Or even if the open world is more rewarding, people just camp the sphinx event, and everyone is trying to tag as much monster as possible to get the most drop. And there is no challenging in open world event since the only challenge is try to tag monster as fast as you can for better reward. Since if it is rewarding, everyone will be there. And if it is not rewarding no one ever do them.
ArcheAge will in no way fail, it will get its development costs (25% of SWTOR costs) back from Korean sales alone, money coming in from the rest of the world will just be profit. Whether it will garner a large audience in the US or EU is a different question but it certainly will not be the "biggest fail in gaming history""It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
Whilst player feedback may be a factor I don't beleive it's the overriding factor in why there aere a number of "Sandbox" MMORPGs int he works. I just think that the developers in question have realised the extreme "Themepark" end of the amrket is totally saturated and so are looking to differentiate themselves from that overly populated part of the market by shifting closer to the extreme "sandbox" end.
I beleive that is the real factor here not a perceived shift in what gamers want.
I think the term "sandbox" is throwing things off because of how polarizing it is here. Call it "bubblegum" if you want but the point is that bubblegum mechanics mixed with candy cane features could equal something sweet everyone can enjoy. Yeah... um, sorry I couldn't help it.
Adding features that deepen and create a vested interest on continuing to play are a great thing IMO.
This happens in Age Of Wushu with its offline system. When you log out in the game your character becomes an npc in the virtual world. He/she has a choice of 30 activitys that he can do in the world while you are offline.
Man your stall as a merchant or do activitys for your faction and be rewarded. All this
comes with its risks because you can also be kidnapped by pks who can sell you into slavery. This is a good way to make cash in the game , the more advanced the player you are kidnapping the more they are worth.
The pk who is doing the kidnapping is also risking a lot because they can be hunted down as well.
There are safe places to go offline. if you do that in your school there is a good chance you wont get Kidnapped. I learned that the hard way, I logged out in a small town and woke up a prostitute and had to pay my way out. now i never log out anywhere but my School Emei.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
A lot of this has to do with over-romanticizing the open world concept. When you think abotu it Game Of Thrones is actually an extremely crappy world to live in no matter who you are. Similarly game concepts which sound great when you read about them, often turn out to be not-so-great when put into practice. In addition the repetive nature of MMORPG gameplay means that even the most epic things will become routine and trite if you repeat them enough times.
It does not help that as we play the game, we develope preferences for certain activities. If the activities you like require you to do activities you do not like then its easy for players to get disgruntled.