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Levels have no place in modern MMORPGS.
Badhawk
Member Posts: 203
Levels are the reason WoW failed to hold my attention for longer then 2 months...levels are the reason Anarchy Online bored me to death. Lineage 2 is another prime example of how levels completely ruined a game.
As it stands now, MMORPGs are the most pointless genre of game out there. "Kill 5 monsters and get to level 10". What happens when you get to level 10? You kill 6 monsters to get to level 11. When you're level 11 you just kill a few more higher level monsters. Theres no point but to kill higher level monsters. Grinding is what makes MMORPGs the most boring, tedious games on the market.
I don't know about you, but I play MMORPGs because of the MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER aspect. I play for player interaction, for opportunities to take part in massive battles, build cities together. I love the idea of thousands of real people just like me all in one world. What modern MMORPGs should be focusing on is a balanced skill based system, massive PvP battles, crafting system, a real economy, and PLAYER FREEDOM. When I log into a game, I want to go in and be able to find some raging war with hundreds of other players fighting over something that matters (land, cities, whatever). If I've been playing the game for 2 weeks, I still want to be able to compete against people who have been playing for 2 years. Not that I should be able to kill them easily, but I just hate the fact that in most MMORPGs, you have to grind for 6 months to get to any fun part of the game. I want to own my own city and raise an army of other players to help defend it. I want to open my humble little shop and sell stuff I made, and not have to worry about needing to finish some quest that a thousand people have done before me and a thousand people will do after me with absolutely no affect on the game but to reset the NPC so the next Elf Druid clone can do it.
The problem with 99% of MMORPGs out there is that you are a clone if every other Dwarf Warrior or Elf Druid or Human Mage out there. All of you will most likely use the same type of armor (there is usually only a few types of "good" armor in most games), all of you will probably use the same weapons and cast the same spells, and probably look almost identical. It's time MMMORPGs move into the next generation where you are not a clone, and your actions actually matter in a game.
When is this game coming out? If you know about a game I just described, PLEASE tell me. I'd like to know.
Comments
Agreed
Which is why I play SWG and PlanetSide. Some others who have clued into this play EVE... other than that? You're pretty much stuck in a pure level system.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Um
There is a trial... or was anyway... that's how I got into SWG.... I had played in beta and didn't like it. Then this past June they had a 10 day trial... I tried it... found they'd fixed a lot of issues and JTL was just around the corner so I decided I liked it enough to buy it. Been playing ever since.
Love the game. Honestly the best online experience I've had thus far. I found EVE excruciatingly boring after about 10 days. Didn't much like EVE in beta either.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Hmm nevermind I just checked. Looks like the Free Trials all expired. The game is doing very well on it's own so I guess they feel they don't need a trial.
I suspect that either shortly before or shortly after ROTS comes out in theatres a free trial will pop up again. Would be very easy for SWG to leach off the movie launch to get more players.
As a side note you can get SWG and JTL for a combined price of about $30 if you're willing to risk it.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
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I agree 100%.
I quit subscribing and playing all games with levels and grinds. Currently, there is a game in development that is basically EXACTLY what you have described, and it is perfect for our type of game. Come check it out and read the FAQ - www.darkfallonline.com
Personnally I loooove levels.
A MMORPG need far more then levels to be interesting, but for simple little me, levels are an extremely fine system.
However, as a soloer, I agree that class(and levels) are bothering me and will most likely be, since I never will understand why I cant developp everything I want with a few keys exceptions(like LoH or harm touch, not both).
Levels and class are part of what make grouping fun however. Raiding and levels dont goes well together, not well at all, levels earn outside of raiding mean nothing for a raider and if they make a decisive factor, it is all wrong in itself.
Many games confuse a tool to reach a goal for the goal itself. Levels are a tool to reach a goal, they where never meant to be the goal in themselves althought I will admit, someone twisted like me make it a goal to level rather then whatever is the original goal, I am a minority. Levels are a very good tool to reach a goal, never meant for them to be the ultimate goal alone.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You see, the major issue here, which seems to elude the majority, is not levels, pvp, etc.. But the fact the MMORPG market has lost site of a great vision that once was. Old Ultima Online vet's will know what I am talking about. The dream was to create a living, breathing, virtual world, where people from all over the globe would come to lose them selves in an alternate reality. Be, and do what your imagination desires, go anywhere and do everything.
Most game developers just stick with the basics, do what works and follow the norm, only changing enough to call it their own. It's a rare thing today, to see a truly unique game let alone a MMORPG that is truly different. So yes, I don't think MMORPG's and levels should be in the same description but that is the case, and I don't forsee it changing until a developer setups up and takes a chance.
I've also played SWG and Eve, though I don't play either right now. Eve just took too long to get new skills after my first 5-6 months so I stopped, and I'm thinking about renewing SWG when the new expansion comes out.
Take a look at roma-victor, it's a historical game based on ancient Rome- it looks very appealing (at least to me) because there's no magic (its realistic), but there are also no levels (all skill based) and its essentially an RP game. You can do just about anything- be a soldier, farm, start a shop, etc. There's also a PvP, if thats your thing. (http://roma-victor.com)
I'm also waiting for Dark and Light, but that's level based, so you may not like it. If you decide to check it out though, heres a link. (http://www.darkandlight.net) It has many of the things you speak of- supposedly a very indepth crafting system, exploration skills, political skills, land owning and city building, and is PvP intensive, again if you like that.
Your criticsm is fine and dandy, but you don't seem to be offering an alternative, or are you?
Are you suggesting everyone should start the game basically with the same skills, spells, strengths, armor, weapons, and just play? How boring. I personally as Anofalye also stated, like levels and skills that have to be earned and increased. It gives me a sense of accomplishment. Don't you want to earn anything yourself, as an individual?
WoW for instance, has an incredible quest system, the best I have experienced, which has a true storyline and leads players thru various stages of development and areas to explore. The quests may include some hunting, but don't make me feel like I am grinding at all, and allow you to level with good experience and item rewards.
Obviously as you stated, you are a group/raid oriented player, and seem to want a game where you earn something as part of a team, so why not play DAOC. Sure you have to level a little at first, but once there it's all about team-realm combat with resulting successes earning realm-team rewards.
I am primarily a soloer who enjoys a MMOG for it's persistent world qualities and the atmosphere of live players around me, including a live player trade economy. What you seek isn't what would interest me at all, but I believe there are games out there that would satisfy you once you complete the basic leveling step.
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going by skill or level is the same thing like it or not. if you want to log on have full skill in everything play a uo free shard. its the only way you will seem to like a game and if not quit playing mmo's.
skill you still have to grind to work up in skill same with level you must kill mobs to gain levels.
any game worth playing you still have to grind period. free shards are fun but become to boring cause you dont ever need to look or learn new things you got all the skills so i play free shards every so often.
so what exactly are you looking for a game that you log on and bam your a level 50 with 75 gold and you make your char from there? if so you will become bored of that also trust me.
i never thought of it this way but people who bore of these games quickly might have a.d.d so get checked please. this type of thread is another of the top 10 most posted topics getting to common.
World of Warcraft's quest system, while cool and pretty amazing that Blizzard spent all that time making each quest a story of it's own, you eventually realize doing them is 100% pointless. It doesnt make a difference whether you finish it or not, it's the same quest that a thousand people did before you and a thousand people will do after you. You are nothing but a clone of the thousand other people who did that quest. Isn't very rewarding, atleast for me.
[quote]Originally posted by Zyke
[b]I've also played SWG and Eve, though I don't play either right now. Eve just took too long to get new skills after my first 5-6 months so I stopped, and I'm thinking about renewing SWG when the new expansion comes out.
Take a look at roma-victor, it's a historical game based on ancient Rome- it looks very appealing (at least to me) because there's no magic (its realistic), but there are also no levels (all skill based) and its essentially an RP game. You can do just about anything- be a soldier, farm, start a shop, etc. There's also a PvP, if thats your thing. ([url=http://roma-victor.com])
I'm also waiting for Dark and Light, but that's level based, so you may not like it. If you decide to check it out though, heres a link. ([url=http://www.darkandlight.net]) It has many of the things you speak of- supposedly a very indepth crafting system, exploration skills, political skills, land owning and city building, and is PvP intensive, again if you like that. [/b][/quote]
I've been following Roma Victor for a few months, I am really really hoping this is the game that will break the mold. Dark and Light also looks pretty cool, but I want to get into the beta and I can't, heh.
Want to build a town, raise a army of other players and go invade other player towns with your army, id have to recommend shadowbane.
Want trade skills and a player driven economy, set up a shop and sell stuff to people, Star Wars galaxies.
Dont like to level up and be able to show your individual gaming skill, Planetside.
Want a unique virtual world where you can do just about anything, Second Life.
Planetside is a perfect example of how to implement an awesome skill system where anyone can compete with anyone, but the veterans obviously had an edge. I just wish it had a little more to it then *just* land control. If they added in cities instead of the same base repeated 100 times, I would still be playing.
all new mmorpg designers, before going to any creators, is to ask the community wat they want, i do think it is going to be hard for the next few upcoming mmorpg's, other than guild wars, for the usual mmorpg i think the top has been set by WoW and EQ2, guild wars, being a dif type of game all together basicly, but all others r gunna hav problems, designers need to get new ideas for there mmorpg, not just ideas in the way of new storylines, but ways to get around grind, which i think will wright (i think thats his name) creator of the sims has a good idea, not to get around grind but in the character/item styles of games, which i think will b implimented in the next year or so, complete customization basicly
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Try to impress me, please, i dare u
I mostly agree with you Badhawk. I think I have a somewhat different idea of what a no-level, no-grind game should be but I definately agree with the general sentiment.
The main reason that the grind persists in MMORPGs is simply to give people something to do. And this is the great blind spot that developers seem to have. They just can't seem to be imaginative enough to develop a virtual world with anything to do besides grinding.
And a lot of MMORPG players have gotten sucked into that mentality as well. They have become convinced that the grind is the whole point of a virtual world and think that a game without a level/skill grind wouldn't have anything for them to do.
Well it doesn't have to be that way. But in order to move away from the grind we would need a much more dynamic virtual world. Maybe as technology progresses there will be some hope for us. Then again, maybe not.
Concerning Roma Victor, I am very leery of that game because of their alternate revenue model. It sounds to me like---<he who pays the most will be the most uber>. Which really puts me off.
Why must you grind? I have played every major MMO out and I have *never* had to grind. I just went out and played and had fun. No grinding, no mindless pulling of the same mobs endlessly. I just explored and killed anything foolish enough to get in my way, or was eaten by anything I was foolish enough to get in the way of. In EQ it took me, literally, a year to get my first character to level 50. And you know what? I had a BLAST getting there. I never once spent time 'grinding'. I *rarely* "Camped" a spawn for any given item (asside from Jboots before they got made into a quest).
Same with UO. I had a 5x Master character before all was said and done. Never even ONCE spent any time at all "grinding" or "macro'ing" or anything like that. I just *gasp* played the game.
People who feel that MMO's are a "grind" are missing the entire point of a game in this genre.
A fantasy MMORPG is mostly about meeting friends and killing monsters and doing quests. What else would you have developers do? If you have a better idea then write it up and post it. If it's good I'm sure someone will comment on it. I love how everyone gripes and moans about the "grind" even when most games don't require any grinding at all. Hell in SWG I didn't even really TRY and I had a Master Bounty Hunter in under a month real time... that's playing approximately 1-2 hours a day, mind you. I wound up not liking BH and was a Master Pistoleer / TKA within a week or so. No grinding at all... just having fun with friends and going out killing storm troopers and stuff. I hit Master Pilot in a couple weeks of just playing, going out and killing badguys with friends.
Same goes for every other game I've ever played. Anyone who knew my characters would tell you that I never did any 'grinding' and rarely participated in any 'powerlevel' groups. Hell in DAOC I had 3 level 50 characters in about 2 years time just from playing the game and having fun. AO I couldn't get into, wound up getting 2 characters to 20 and saying "this game is boring" and left. Same went for AC and AC2 and Shadowbane and EVE and many others. SWG, EQ, UO, DAOC are the 4 games that have managed to hold my attention. I also enjoy PlanetSide. But guess what... there's levels in PlanetSide too.
I've never understood why people complain about grinding. Maybe because those people really aren't looking for an MMORPG they're looking for an MMOFPS.
Something to think about.
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I have high hopes for games like Dark and Light where there are levels, but there is a ton of other content to dive into like exploring or crafting. I'm very excited for the first time in a long time after being let down so many times before lol. I think the level system is fine when it reflects experience more than it does actual skill in combat. Your ability to grind for a few months shouldn't dictate your ability to PvP. When I think of the next gen consoles that are coming out, I also have hopes that some devs will bring MMORPGs to the consoles, because with the controler you have the ability to really tap into a combat system based on skill like that of Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry 3. IMO the controler is far more interactive and really supports that skilled combat system we all dream of best.
I agree with you. Levels are obsolete by my standards. The future of *QUALITY* MMOs will all have the following:
- Open free for all PvP
- No levels
- Player-run economy and construction
- Permanent death or limited life-span
- Balanced item properties, instead of moving from one item to the next better one as you go on and all the weak items become pointless
- One consolidated server
I agree with your general philosophy of "just playing the game".
But you may be overlooking something when making the quoted comment. Some games do not offer alternative activities to achieve a new experience. Thus if you want to get to another area of the game where you can do something different you must achieve another set of skills, usually by gaining one or more levels. In some cases this can become a grind.
Mind you, I've found quite a few people that have a min/max perspective and they will stay in one place for as long as they can stand it to gain as quickly as possible. There's nothing wrong with that point of view, provided you are willing to suffer through it.
People who like to do that are not suffereing through it. The enjoy doing just that. For them fun is to advance as quickly as possible.
A large number of players enjoy the structure and direction a class level system gives you. I don't like pure skill based systems unless there are distinct skills to aim for. Getting my sword skill to master level has 0 interest to me unless along the way I gain a number of interesting and cool sword skills that have an impact on how my character plays. Hate to say it but that sounds like a level system to me.
I have no doubt that there is lots of room for more skill based games, lots of reponses here to indicate that a good number of people want that. However class level systems will not be going away any time soon.
Levels are nessasary. Think about it even in real life certain people are stonger. I guess we could say these stronger people are the higher level. But we as humans all have the same spells and skills. Like a level 15 boxer has a harder punch then a level 15 computer man (haha thats my example) But the computer man can still punch and such. Levels are actully realistic if you think about it.
Guild Wars - Rorick Aurlith E/Mo pumped up with the best armor and weapon, has all his skills, and runes. PvP King!
Dark Age of Camelot - Leaton 50 Vampiir - Lamorak - Guild: Magic and Mayhem!
Revolution!
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Can someone please make me a sig. I would like it to have something to do with an eagle(the bird) Somewhere near the eagle can you put the words "Global Defense Initiative". Could you also have the line "If you can't buff up, don't step up!". Thanks!
Private Message me about it!
The Matrix Online, man.
Funny you should mention this... Im actually watching a game in development and about to come out in 2-3 months. Its called roma-Victor and its completely realistic. There are no dragons, wizards, warriors, levels, or even hitpoints or attack power for that matter! Its real life back in roman time, do what you wish. You could either be a barbarian or roman... If your a barbarian, you start your life under the command of your "Guide and Master", and he teaches you the basics to get you started.... If you start as a roman, you start as a slave and try to win your way through slavey by being a gladiator, escape for 48 hours, or be a good little boy and just follow what your master tells you for a month then become a free citizen
.... The battle system is very unique in first person view...
Has it ever annoyed you in those game when you chop at a monster with an axe he doesnt even show a mark? Well this game closes your curiousity, this is completely based by trying to cut threw someone, and damage them, say you hit them in the leg, they start limping, possibly fall to the ground knocked out... slice off their head... bye bye
... and you could learn different techniques, and weapons have no speacial attack "power". If its a well crafted weapon made out of iron, it'll probably slice them and be quicker to swing 
...
Now the crafting system... You could build houses, make hotels, fish hunt, make clothe, you have to eat and drink or you will face sever consequences... And its all more realistic... You wanna smith a good sword? Well you better take up 30 minutes game time and smith a good sword
.......
All real life factors such as drinking, eating, sleeping, being warm, etc. Are all inserted into the game. Everything could affect you, your about living life as a real roman....
Now This is what I love the most. Some of you might dislike it, but I love it... When you die by a the sword of another character you lose all your items on you, and are sent to the after life. Depending how good or bad, or how many people you killed, it will depend how hard it will be to get back to real life, having to complete puzzles and dule demons, it will be an interesting place indeed
... ANd making you lose all your items would certainly make you think twice about dieing.
This game completely is focusing on game play and you could check it out at...
www.roma-victor.com
The only bad part is the graphics suck and it seems a bit plain atm, so Im not sure if this will work out... But Im hoping for the best
.