Originally posted by srohek I agree with you. Levels are obsolete by my standards. The future of *QUALITY* MMOs will all have the following: - Open free for all PvP - No levels - Player-run economy and construction - Permanent death or limited life-span - Balanced item properties, instead of moving from one item to the next better one as you go on and all the weak items become pointless - One consolidated server
Just a question, you are looking for a MMORPG or a MMOFPS(like counterstrike but more MMO)?
Levels and RPGs are almost existing in a synbiotic way now...the main difference is when you turn to skills, yet, they are usually only a variation of the level form. No? All the FF serie, SSI products(or Black Isles) and all the RPG that come to mind, they all have levels or skills...or both.
In a FPS, you have a permanent death and restart at zero every new fight...anyway, just wondering...me the closest thing I enjoy playing to a FPS is EQ so...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by srohek I agree with you. Levels are obsolete by my standards. The future of *QUALITY* MMOs will all have the following: - Open free for all PvP - No levels - Player-run economy and construction - Permanent death or limited life-span - Balanced item properties, instead of moving from one item to the next better one as you go on and all the weak items become pointless - One consolidated server
Check out "Trials of Ascension" at www.shadowpool.comthe only thing it won't have is the single server, but ToA is most likely going to be a Long time coming and is showing very little progress atm.
But still, it's listed all the qualities I was looking for and has made the other MMO's I look at seem less interesting now (Just my opinion and taste).
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by srohek I agree with you. Levels are obsolete by my standards. The future of *QUALITY* MMOs will all have the following: - Open free for all PvP- No levels- Player-run economy and construction- Permanent death or limited life-span- Balanced item properties, instead of moving from one item to the next better one as you go on and all the weak items become pointless- One consolidated server
Just a question, you are looking for a MMORPG or a MMOFPS(like counterstrike but more MMO)?
Levels and RPGs are almost existing in a synbiotic way now...the main difference is when you turn to skills, yet, they are usually only a variation of the level form. No? All the FF serie, SSI products(or Black Isles) and all the RPG that come to mind, they all have levels or skills...or both.
In a FPS, you have a permanent death and restart at zero every new fight...anyway, just wondering...me the closest thing I enjoy playing to a FPS is EQ so...
You seem to have this misconception that MMORPGs are defined by a level based system. Just because someone doesn't want to deal with the grind anymore doesn't mean that they're looking for an FPS. I personally don't have a huge problem with levels and classes considering I'm someone who enjoys the RP aspect of it which seems to be long forgotten in the many games of today. My issue comes about when leveling up is the only true content in the game, and is the only thing that truly defines your skill in combat. Someone's ability to devote countless hours of their day to a game shouldn't make them a better PvPer. It's a slap in the face to the people who have other things to do and can't devote every waking minute to a game. Now granted, with a PC it's hard to create a true skill based combat system considering that the mouse and keyboard aren't as interactive as a controler(just my opinion though).
IMO I think that leveling a character should only take you so far, maybe giving a mild edge in combat by making your attacks "more affective" by having them do slightly more damage. Something to denote that you're an experienced player, but something that makes your abilities in combat speak for themselves, rather than the A typical who can click a thousand times faster battles.
Now someone earlier mentioned that the aspect of "grinding" deals with the philosophy of the player, but if you've ever played MMORPGs the first you should know is that to the general online populace tends to place PvP above any other in game aspect(even though I would not). Your ability to PvP automatically sets you apart from a number of other players, and as a noob you're gonna take some nasty whooppings from grievers and every other egotistical, angry asshole that finds some great sense of pleasure in killing someone weaker. Also most "grind oriented" games have a map filled with all types of different mobs of many different "levels of skill". Basically in these types of games, the average player is more proned to stay in an environment that supports the capabilities of his character. If he can't fight certain mobs beyond that point and walks over there and suddenly get aggroed and dies, he's not likely to do it again(especially considering the fact that most "grind oriented" games are very unfriendly to player deaths in terms of losing items and whatnot).
But the biggest problem is when grinding and PvP are the only things to do. You can explore all you want but when there's nothing to explore other than coming across more mobs, there really isn't much incentive to do it in the first place. When I say this I think of games like Lineage 2. You could explore all day, but the only thing you'd find would be more mobs. Anarchy Online is pretty much the same way, you can explore all you want, but there's not much to find and grinding/pvp are the two main things to do. It's not that gamers aren't playing the games the way they should to avoid the grinding, it's the simple fact that, without the proper incentive to motivate an action or provide a noticeable benefit to your character, the majority of people won't bother wasting time doing it. Hence the reason that so little RP is actually involved in mmoRPGs these days.
Open PvP: already some games have it, some like some dont, can lead to griefing
Sounds like if you got through in WoW in 2 months you are quite the powergamer. It sounds like any new content is coming out too slowly for your pace of play. So to not everyone do the same quest over and over again, that essentially requires the developers to make each and every thousands and thousands of players have their own individual experience of play. Quite hard, and from what im used too most RPGs are linear based where everyone ends up doing the same basic stuff, but have the option to do other things to chance the experience and there is no multiplarer interaction of course.
There are a lot of games that have done contruction/crafting well, just other parts of the game lacked.
I agree with the said grind, its a 'grind' since you make it a grind. I can maybe see it for some games where it seems to be a grind playing the second character, that is what WoW is good about, you always have some quest, an objective of sorts. So what if millions of others have done it, it is your own experience you are doing, and you have the option to do it with others and to make it as much of of an experience as you want. Sounds like you want a game that gives a alternate reality where you can live an second life. Closest thing i have seen to what you want is some games with events that do change their servers or more interaction with the world say like Shadowbane, but the fact there is no such game that you want, why even bother complaining or playing them in the first place? You know what they are like and seen what the new games have turned too, do not expect your prize game anytime soon.
Originally posted by Jorev Are you suggesting everyone should start the game basically with the same skills, spells, strengths, armor, weapons, and just play? How boring.
There he is!
Inevitably, whenever someone starts a thread with complaints and/or ideas, some clod comes along, takes the idea, and runs off the edge of the map in the opposite direction, then tries to pin it on the original poster like he's the absurd one.
You like German beer? Oh, then you must think all Jews should die.
Obvously, Jorev, we're talking about alternate methods of character advancement, like an attribute/skill system.
Sounds like you would enjoy EvE online if you want a game where attributes and skills do not raise through combat or usage, because that would entail some grinding aspect.
Eve online you just learn a skill and that's it, everyone is at the same level of skill.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Blood_Hawk You seem to have this misconception that MMORPGs are defined by a level based system. Just because someone doesn't want to deal with the grind anymore doesn't mean that they're looking for an FPS. I personally don't have a huge problem with levels and classes considering I'm someone who enjoys the RP aspect of it which seems to be long forgotten in the many games of today. My issue comes about when leveling up is the only true content in the game, and is the only thing that truly defines your skill in combat. Someone's ability to devote countless hours of their day to a game shouldn't make them a better PvPer. It's a slap in the face to the people who have other things to do and can't devote every waking minute to a game. Now granted, with a PC it's hard to create a true skill based combat system considering that the mouse and keyboard aren't as interactive as a controler(just my opinion though).
IMO I think that leveling a character should only take you so far, maybe giving a mild edge in combat by making your attacks "more affective" by having them do slightly more damage. Something to denote that you're an experienced player, but something that makes your abilities in combat speak for themselves, rather than the A typical who can click a thousand times faster battles.
Maybe a specialised gameplay would work better? I mean your level dont matter the same way or not at all in PvP as it does in PvE?
I mean, removing levels and skills pretty much kill a lot from the PvE, but nobody say PvP and PvE should share the same rules and the same systems, nor the same zones or the rewards. I think the PvP system need to be completely independant from the PvE system?
I never agree that someone killing PvE mobs should get any edge killing players, and I never agree that someone hunting in a PvP zone get any edge fighting in a PvE setting.
Dont you think it would be better to actually have 5+ game system rather then having 1 goofy system that try to mixt everything and invariably shaft the 4 others if not all the 5? I rather have a system that lead be to be to the TOP of noob03 zone, but dont help me anywhere else, then been unable to reach my goal! The best peoples in a sector should be the peoples that play it, focus on it and earn it...not peoples playing another aspect of the game the devs think is more worthy, no?
Killing levels is certainly the worst thing I can think of when PvE grouping is concerned...shoudl PvP be affected by those levels? I dont think it should, and neither should it affect the PvE setting.
Think back of Mythica...you are an eternal spirit for a Goddess or something. Unlike Mythica plans, you create an avatar of your spirit on different worlds, with completely different goals and objectives in order to promote your Goddess. Each world have different rules, gameplay, features, goals, grind, maybe even skills...still using the same engine and 1 very flexible rule setting system. In an expension, the company can add more worlds with new differents setting as well as developp the most popular worlds. Maybe you can have many side games, some been affected by some worlds and what you earn there, some not, some by others...I mean the possibilities are many, the options are immense! Yes, some world could have no grind and permadeath, and the goal might be to get level 20 and sacrifice your hero avatar for the glory of your god and your avatar...And if you think it make a lot of eternal spirit, I would invite you to check the ''Blood war'' in D&D setting, you will see that even with millions of players, it is only a tiny fraction of what is going on...At your own convenience, casuals worlds performance can affect trivially the more hardcores identical but harders setting but not the other ways, casuals need to reach their top, it is vital. So yes, a world at least would be dedicated to some PvP and you would have to earn everything in this world, not in the pink land of carebear reserves where I will prolly be myself!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by worldboy90 Funny you should mention this... Im actually watching a game in development and about to come out in 2-3 months. Its called roma-Victor and its completely realistic. There are no dragons, wizards, warriors, levels, or even hitpoints or attack power for that matter! Its real life back in roman time, do what you wish. You could either be a barbarian or roman... If your a barbarian, you start your life under the command of your "Guide and Master", and he teaches you the basics to get you started.... If you start as a roman, you start as a slave and try to win your way through slavey by being a gladiator, escape for 48 hours, or be a good little boy and just follow what your master tells you for a month then become a free citizen .... The battle system is very unique in first person view... Has it ever annoyed you in those game when you chop at a monster with an axe he doesnt even show a mark? Well this game closes your curiousity, this is completely based by trying to cut threw someone, and damage them, say you hit them in the leg, they start limping, possibly fall to the ground knocked out... slice off their head... bye bye ... and you could learn different techniques, and weapons have no speacial attack "power". If its a well crafted weapon made out of iron, it'll probably slice them and be quicker to swing ... Now the crafting system... You could build houses, make hotels, fish hunt, make clothe, you have to eat and drink or you will face sever consequences... And its all more realistic... You wanna smith a good sword? Well you better take up 30 minutes game time and smith a good sword ....... All real life factors such as drinking, eating, sleeping, being warm, etc. Are all inserted into the game. Everything could affect you, your about living life as a real roman.... Now This is what I love the most. Some of you might dislike it, but I love it... When you die by a the sword of another character you lose all your items on you, and are sent to the after life. Depending how good or bad, or how many people you killed, it will depend how hard it will be to get back to real life, having to complete puzzles and dule demons, it will be an interesting place indeed ... ANd making you lose all your items would certainly make you think twice about dieing. This game completely is focusing on game play and you could check it out at... www.roma-victor.com
The only bad part is the graphics suck and it seems a bit plain atm, so Im not sure if this will work out... But Im hoping for the best .
Been watching this game for awhile...we'll see what happens. The idea sounds awesome
I hate to say it.... well actually i love to say it.
idiot, shut up.
lol j/k
in all truths mmorpgs require levels... And if not levels some sort of skill advancement, etc.
yes yes i know what your saying, NO THEY DONT NEED IT.
The problem is with todays gamers, you need some sort of objective or goal, or something similar. If you log into a game, where you have no character advancement besides maybe items. Your not going to hold a audiance.
With games like eve and planetside, its acceptable, because its quick fix game.
if your looking at games like EQ/daoc (you know, your just a guy in a fantasy world) t won't work.
You'd see all the content in the world fast, because there are no limitations, and youd be clammering for more.
With a level based system, you have something to look forward to ALL the time. Lets say your level 10, you look into the store, and see full plate armor, level 15, you have enough to buy it, and you go out and you kill and you get to 15. Now you can use the armor, and your like wow this is nice! w00t and you run around owning things merrily.
Or at coh, levels 1-14(i think its 14...been awhile) your waiting for your travel power. 14-20 your cape, 20-30 aura, 30-42(i think) your final powers. Sure its not a great example but you get the idea.
But the problem with games is that they don't spread out content enough so you have a variety of activities to do. For example, Bladin is a level 35 sorceror, he has 2 quests to do, and only 2 areas to go to. lets say thats the general feel for every level. So when you go to make a new character, you basically have to follow the same path.
What you guys want, is not the level system removed. But mroe content added inbetween levels and at the end.
Lets go back into Bladin the sorcerers world. He is now level 40, he can go to the tower of fire, the river of the damned, the forest of the mists, the dungeon of thraek, or the mountain of the cthelzin. Those are just places to explore and adventure for 40-45. Each has a large number of quests. And can be soloed or grouped. when he hits 45 he can now access 5 other areas etc etc etc.
Enough so you always have some place to go, and something new to see. New challenges, new monsters, new items. Always something to look forward to.
But the problem is, with a system like that, people would still rush thinking levels are needed for fun. But in all truths, levels are nothing but a system that enables you to see all the content in the world, except some people feel that the levels themselves are fun... thats where the problem is. Without levels, harder content would feel trivial and meaningless. And the weaker content would be breezed through.
If you want a entire world, with allways something to look foward to, you need levels.
I'm not saying that levels are bad in anyway, shape or form, but when I log in each day I would like some reason to log in other than to reach x level and buy x amout of items so I can reach y level and buy y amount of items. At that point it's just an ongoing circle of boredom. There are many aspects of game play that come together to make that beautiful blend of an MMORPG such as exploring, role playing, crafting, creating(cities, towns, etc.), pvp, pve, siege warfare, strategy, etc. All of these things are equally important as each one is valued by different player types, but I've played plenty of MMORPGs and the recent trend seems to be adopting a very tedius cycle of game play that I find lacking in content period. It's a bland series of grinding, buying, grinding, buying, rinse and repeat.
It's all about motivation. What motivates you to perform a given action in game? What is it that keeps you interested, or motivated to continually play on a regular basis. Obviously it's the content that's going to make the difference, but it's the quality of the content and my point is that so many games of today or so focused on the grinding aspect that they leave out a great deal of content outside of that. And it's not because they simply forget about it, if you conduct a survey on the general gaming public on what aspect of an MMORPG you find most important, PvP is bound to come out on top. So as a developer it only makes sense to create a system that requires a lot of time and effort on a player's part to partake in combat at a level at which he or she feels they have a chance at victory. The level based system is the most common form of this, they create a series of levels and a level cap for the players to hit after a great deal of playing and then from there allow the skills they've invested in, or the skills defined by their class do the rest in combat. Why waste valuable time a great deal of non combat related content when it's the most favored aspect of the game play.
Maybe it's just me here, but I just think there should be some skill involved in PvP so it's not some mindless effort that favors the older generation of players. I think that levels are fine when they merely curb your combat skills in some mild form as opposed to this dramatic difference you see from level to level. It definately creates a competitive nature in the community when it comes to the grinding, which is probably why it's as successful as it is, but it just doesn't last for me. My typical trend with those types of games involves me hitting the level cap, exploring all there is to explore, taking a week or two to pvp the crap out of my would-be competitors, maybe participate in a few sieges(territorial conflict, a newer trend in MMORPGs of today), and then call it quits. And afterwards I'm left with this feeling that I wasted more time being bored trying to hit the level cap to enjoy what the majority of the game's content had to offer, rather than actually having fun. And it's not about how I play, it's about how limited the game's content really is, and how restrictive it is to people who simply choose not to grind their way to the top.
Originally posted by Bladin If you want a entire world, with allways something to look foward to, you need levels.
Neg.
Skill-based advancement systems work quite nicely, thanks. I don't recall ever playing UO and saying "Man, I've got my Swordsmanship to 100, there's just nothing to do now!"
No, it was more of "Well, I'm a 7x GM, I guess I could either kill people, or explore dungeons, or go treasure hunting with a treasure hunter, or go make some money, or go trade rares like they're goin out of style (salt shakers for 250k anyone?) or start a guild war, or start a new guild, or hunt for a spot to place a house/tower/keep/castle, or go hunt PKs, or randomly suicide bomb someone at the bank, or gee, I dunno...RP marry some other guy that happens to be playing a female character."
Just a list of examples.
And you know what? I can do any of those things at any point. With a brand-spanking-new character. It would be a ...little harder, I guess. Y'know, Pking someone with a new-rolled character is pretty tough. But when you and 5 friends manage it, boy is it sweet! Deadly poisoned daggers, anyone?
Levels are not a requirement for any reason, nor do I feel that they make for more fun while advancing. They are unnatural, clumsy restrictions that do little to enrich the gaming experience.
Skills just make more sense. Someone, please, explain to me: Why can't a level 10 druid wear full plate? My 14 year old cousin could wear full plate, however akwardly.
And why can't a level X Priest backstab? You would think that with his/her knowledge of healing, you know, including anatomy and whatnot, that vital spots would be as obvious to him/her as it would be to a rogue.
----------------------------- Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
The fundamental problems with levels is that it encourages mmorpg design where the purpose is the next uber item, the next level reward. And there's little else to do (PvP of course, but the level system plus point n click combat has destroyed what could be amazing on this front). Seems bizarre to me that mmorpgs have copied the single player rpg level system when singple player rpgs can do all this (and more) much better. Shall i spell out the difference? OK, in a single plyr rpg all the quests/missions/ items are unique since you are the only one playing- to some degree you do effect the world you play in! Of course, in mmorpgs the opposite is true.
I agree with the above poster that said mmorpgs should be an alternate world with the massive freedoms that entails. A complex virtual world may require more effort to "play" but will be a true online experience for years. While WoW et al. are "fun" for a few weeks but are ultimately pointless and unfulfilling.
The problem we facec that so many mmorpg players have been conditioned to the level-based/ strict quest grind system. They don't want and can't handle a mmorpg where the player has ultimate freedom and a bewildering number of choices and actions ina complex world.
A mmorpg should not be based on the foundations of the single player rpg. Unfortunately 99% of mmorpgs out there are (except maybe Eve and SWG and RV).
I have to agree. I think class based level systems are slowly going to die out as more and more MMORPG's come out with skill based systems. SWG is even modifying it's structure so that the skill trees aren't as locked to a profession, allowing more versatility in making your character the way YOU want him to be. Much like UO was.
However, unless you are planning to play an MMOFPS you are never going to get rid of some kind of in-game advancement system. The only way to eliminate an advancement system of some kind is to make a game a purely twitch FPS with a direct damage model because if you use a COD (Cone of Death) then you are going to wind up with some kind of skill system to reduce the COD's size, I guarantee it.
So here's the quandry: You don't like level systems the "grind" as you put it.
So why do you play MMORPG's? I'd say you are more of an MMOFPS person. Go play PlanetSide or Tribes or something of that nature. They are geared for that so that you don't have to deal with the 'grind'. Just hop online and blow people up. That's what you want right?
Look I'm not trying to flame you but all you are doing is complaining. I don't see a constructive idea on how to eliminate the 'grind' in your post. Just that you don't like it. I replied earlier that the only reason you think there's a 'grind' is because you insist on getting to X level as fast as possible. THAT is when it becomes a grind.
In EQ, prime example of a game people liked to grind in, I was able to reach level 50. I never spent more than a couple hours in any given zone. And this was before Kunark even came out. There were enough places to go within any given level range for me to have fun, do various quests and advance my character without ever getting bored. I got to see new places fight new things, finish different quests, etc.
In newer games it's even EASIER to do that. 1) Explore, get to know the world. Don't sit in 1 area until you feel you can leave it. I guarantee there are other areas you can go to to hunt! Something that always amazed me was that when I was playing EQ there were level 50 characters (pre Kunark) who couldn't find their way from Qeynos to Freeport..... I was making that run at level 13... And then when Kunark came out it just got worse. People couldn't find a zone that was 3 zones away without going and digging up a map. To me half the fun is exploring. Sure you might get killed but isn't just finding new things and places to go half the fun?
2) Do the quests, they are a great way to gain experienc/skills/levels. If a game has Quests take advantage of them to break the monotony. Doing Quests I often discovered new places to visit and hunt in. I met new people to talk to and got to see parts of the world I probably wouldn't have otherwise.
3) Meet people, have fun, get to know folks. Half the reason EQ was so addictive is the friendships that it generated. Honestly the only reason I log into old EQ at all anymore is to visit friends online occasionally. Most of us have moved on but those friends who haven't I still go back to visit. Thank god I have a SOE All Access Pass.
4) If the game is multi-dimensional go craft, fly a spaceship, become a trader or whatever. One of the reasons I enjoy SWG so much is that if I get bored hunting I can go craft. Or I can go fly my X-Wing or I can go and fight in PVP or I can go work on my house or whatever. It's hard to get bored because there are so many different things to do. The 'grind' just doesn't exist for me.
Like I said, any MMORPG is going to have some sort of in-game advancement system. You can rant and rave about it all you want but without an advancement system it's just not an MMORPG. You COULD make an MMORPG where everyone that joins is issued a fully developed character with whatever gear they want but I'll tell you now it wouldn't last long on the market. Most people get bored when there's nothing to *achieve*.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator I have to agree. I think class based level systems are slowly going to die out as more and more MMORPG's come out with skill based systems. SWG is even modifying it's structure so that the skill trees aren't as locked to a profession, allowing more versatility in making your character the way YOU want him to be. Much like UO was. However, unless you are planning to play an MMOFPS you are never going to get rid of some kind of in-game advancement system. The only way to eliminate an advancement system of some kind is to make a game a purely twitch FPS with a direct damage model because if you use a COD (Cone of Death) then you are going to wind up with some kind of skill system to reduce the COD's size, I guarantee it.
So here's the quandry: You don't like level systems the "grind" as you put it. So why do you play MMORPG's? I'd say you are more of an MMOFPS person. Go play PlanetSide or Tribes or something of that nature. They are geared for that so that you don't have to deal with the 'grind'. Just hop online and blow people up. That's what you want right? Look I'm not trying to flame you but all you are doing is complaining. I don't see a constructive idea on how to eliminate the 'grind' in your post. Just that you don't like it. I replied earlier that the only reason you think there's a 'grind' is because you insist on getting to X level as fast as possible. THAT is when it becomes a grind. In EQ, prime example of a game people liked to grind in, I was able to reach level 50. I never spent more than a couple hours in any given zone. And this was before Kunark even came out. There were enough places to go within any given level range for me to have fun, do various quests and advance my character without ever getting bored. I got to see new places fight new things, finish different quests, etc. In newer games it's even EASIER to do that. 1) Explore, get to know the world. Don't sit in 1 area until you feel you can leave it. I guarantee there are other areas you can go to to hunt! Something that always amazed me was that when I was playing EQ there were level 50 characters (pre Kunark) who couldn't find their way from Qeynos to Freeport..... I was making that run at level 13... And then when Kunark came out it just got worse. People couldn't find a zone that was 3 zones away without going and digging up a map. To me half the fun is exploring. Sure you might get killed but isn't just finding new things and places to go half the fun? 2) Do the quests, they are a great way to gain experienc/skills/levels. If a game has Quests take advantage of them to break the monotony. Doing Quests I often discovered new places to visit and hunt in. I met new people to talk to and got to see parts of the world I probably wouldn't have otherwise. 3) Meet people, have fun, get to know folks. Half the reason EQ was so addictive is the friendships that it generated. Honestly the only reason I log into old EQ at all anymore is to visit friends online occasionally. Most of us have moved on but those friends who haven't I still go back to visit. Thank god I have a SOE All Access Pass. 4) If the game is multi-dimensional go craft, fly a spaceship, become a trader or whatever. One of the reasons I enjoy SWG so much is that if I get bored hunting I can go craft. Or I can go fly my X-Wing or I can go and fight in PVP or I can go work on my house or whatever. It's hard to get bored because there are so many different things to do. The 'grind' just doesn't exist for me. Like I said, any MMORPG is going to have some sort of in-game advancement system. You can rant and rave about it all you want but without an advancement system it's just not an MMORPG. You COULD make an MMORPG where everyone that joins is issued a fully developed character with whatever gear they want but I'll tell you now it wouldn't last long on the market. Most people get bored when there's nothing to *achieve*.
But that's the whole point- i don't want mmorpgs that have quests!! That's a single player rpg thing.
I'll spell out what i want - a mmorpg based on player interaction (in my book its ok if that encompasses player controlled npcs), huge variey of constructs, objects are destructible, huge world (single server), political system, twitch based PvP.
The twitch based PvP will be based on two factors: (i) a skill system where the player cant see the numbers and where the basic skills increase very slowly based on use and (ii) the economy - huge variety of equipment the player can use, which will obviously cost varying amounts of cash. You earn money through interacting with other players. NPCs don't give quests or rewards - NPCs only exist as minions of players to be employed (you gotta pay them!) to run your shops, guard your houses, fight for you on the battlefield, etc.
So you can see that's no Planetside! M
Many community members have suggested alternatives to the current mmorpg model (look at rent's post a while back). The issue is not that alternatives aren't possible but that devs, publishers and some playes are stuck in the existing cul-de-sac mmorpg model.
Originally posted by stav1 But that's the whole point- i don't want mmorpgs that have quests!! That's a single player rpg thing. I'll spell out what i want - a mmorpg based on player interaction (in my book its ok if that encompasses player controlled npcs), huge variey of constructs, objects are destructible, huge world (single server), political system, twitch based PvP. The twitch based PvP will be based on two factors: (i) a skill system where the player cant see the numbers and where the basic skills increase very slowly based on use and (ii) the economy - huge variety of equipment the player can use, which will obviously cost varying amounts of cash. You earn money through interacting with other players. NPCs don't give quests or rewards - NPCs only exist as minions of players to be employed (you gotta pay them!) to run your shops, guard your houses, fight for you on the battlefield, etc.
So you can see that's no Planetside! M Many community members have suggested alternatives to the current mmorpg model (look at rent's post a while back). The issue is not that alternatives aren't possible but that devs, publishers and some playes are stuck in the existing cul-de-sac mmorpg model.
Really there is no harm in having "quests" but as you suggested making quests player content is the way to go if you're looking for diversity. What's often failed to realize is that you don't need a special interface to do it. Just have player a to send a letter to player b and handing him a reward upon completion of the quest. You don't need special game design to do that because it is already available, it is only limited by the availability of the two players. All you need for that is to have a player base open to this type of quests. If you want to see it in action (players actively contributing to the content in form of quests and politics) I suggest you go take a look at nexustk. The game might not fit your graphical needs (flat 2D) but it has big parts of the type of gameplay you are talking about. Ruling out npc's completely is an option that is very hard to achieve, a few names come to mind where the devs had attempted it but where in the end it failed due to the narrowminded vision of players.
Hiding the numbers might be the most important thing an mmorpg developper needs to realize. As long as a character is defined by its numbers it will to most only be the numbers while a character is far more then that. In that way levels have no place in modern mmorpgs. While the whole level system might still exist behind the character mechanics causing your twitch based PvP there has to be a fading effect on those level benefits if the skills aren't used.
What you are basicly asking for is mass amounts of content and the next level in reality terms of an mmorpg. I can see part of these dreams come true in games as Dark and Light, Roma Victor, Darkfall,... Thing is that it remains the vision of a world to come that is watered down from what indepth gamers and devs really want to something that will skyrocket sales and please to the masses. It is all in the risk the publisher is willing to take where it used to be the risk the developper was willing to take. If you look at the huge budgets used to devellop recent games aiming for a niche market is much more of a risk then it used to be as well. It's a choice between looking behind the graphics to the gameplay and looking at the candy you're offered on first sight and with huge advertising. To add to this, publishers have yet to discover the benefits of long term strategy in mmorpg's, most are relatively new to the market and only transplanting their single player game sales strategies on masive multiplayer online game sales strategies.
Grinding is what makes MMORPGs the most boring, tedious games on the market.
Your second statement said it better I believe. Levels are not what's killing MMOGs, but rather that nasty little spawn of real-life capitalism and company lethargy - the grind. As long as people continue to make money pumping out games with "the grind" they'll continue to implement it as a standard. In one game I played, you could get experience for doing jobs (or use jobs for community service preferable to serving hard time - don't ask me on this one ). I think there are plenty of fun, interesting, or simply involving ways to earn experience other than the grind. And if developers simply stretch their imaginations enough, they'll find what many of us already have.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Only read the first couple of posts and scanned the rest. To my surprice I didn't see anyone mention Guild Wars.
Guild Wars:
Max lvl 20, which is achieveble in a weekend.
You can get items good enough to compete in top competetion PvP in around a week. In most PvP you can just use the items gained while lvl'ing, your skill in playing will have such a large impact that you wont notice that you don't have top notch items, this is only seen if you compete on high lvl.
Game is instanced, so you only meet random people in cities, all pvp is in pvp areas, and therefore consensual. This also makes pvp fair and skill based, because you will always go up against of teams of same size, and because lvl'ing is a non factor, you will also be same lvl.
Anyway, game is out 28th of April, www.guildwars.com
I'd like to see a game wich holds both, a decent leveling system not only leveling by killing monsters but allso by crafting etc. BUT, these levels will affect your ability to cast new spells or wield better weapons, but not to make you tougher than the other players, adding STR or INT or whatever to your char, but just weapon levels to use the types of weapons you need.
Allso, in real life, it takes practice to achieve the needed skill to use a bow for example, thats why you need levels for weapon types, but not overall levels, wich usually make people whoop some newbie's who are pretty defenceless against it, but if those newbie's had the same stats they started with, they still hold a chance against the more experienced player who still has his same stats from when he started, yet he still holds an advantage for being more skilled and for spending time ingame, and therefor gets a reward of wielding better weapons and casting better spells.
Originally posted by markbaranov I'd like to see a game wich holds both, a decent leveling system not only leveling by killing monsters but allso by crafting etc. BUT, these levels will affect your ability to cast new spells or wield better weapons, but not to make you tougher than the other players, adding STR or INT or whatever to your char, but just weapon levels to use the types of weapons you need. Allso, in real life, it takes practice to achieve the needed skill to use a bow for example, thats why you need levels for weapon types, but not overall levels, wich usually make people whoop some newbie's who are pretty defenceless against it, but if those newbie's had the same stats they started with, they still hold a chance against the more experienced player who still has his same stats from when he started, yet he still holds an advantage for being more skilled and for spending time ingame, and therefor gets a reward of wielding better weapons and casting better spells.
That work for PvP, but it kill PvE.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Stav1 (i) a skill system where the player cant see the numbers and where the basic skills increase very slowly based on use and (ii) the economy - huge variety of equipment the player can use, which will obviously cost varying amounts of cash. You earn money through interacting with other players.
1) Skills increase very slowly based on use: Grind 2) Variety of equipment players can use : Who makes them? NPC's or other players? If it's other players then you have a grind to get the skills necessary to make them, otherwise anyone can make anything for free. 3) Cost you varying ammts of cash: Where does the cash come from? 4) Cach through interacting with other players.... where do THEY get the cash? There has to be a source of money. Players can't just spit dollar bills outta their behinds ya know So I'm going to assume that you want something like this:
1) Skill based game with Twitch PVP (hmm sounds like UO and SWG but you want the numbers hidden, that's fine) 2) NPC Vendors that sell stuff... this is do-able or PC vendors that sell stuff... also doable.
I'm still lost as to where the money is generated from? Is this a pure PVP environment where you get cash for killing other players? Sounds like a griefer's dream come true to me. Or are you going to get money from killing NPC's? HMMM sounds like a money grind to me.
So you've just described a skill based system where some players will find it imperative upon them to grind so they can max their skills as quickly as possible. And unless you can clarify where the money is coming from it sounds like, at minimum, a cash grind system as well where if you want XXX dollars you have to go grind in some manner to get that money.
As I said, the only way to truely eliminate any chance of 'grinding' in a game is to make it a pure FPS with no money requirement and no skill requirement. Kind of like PlanetSide is now.
I'm not sure where you can say "I want a skill system that goes up slowly as you use your skills" and not say that can't turn into a grind.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by markbaranov .... Allso, in real life, it takes practice to achieve the needed skill to use a bow for example, thats why you need levels for weapon types, but not overall levels,
Why is it that so many people apparently do NOT understand the concept of skill based? You do NOT need levels to represent your example. In fact, levels are about the worst way of doing it. In a good skill based system (emulating real life), ANY character regardless of being brand new or not CAN and SHOULD be able to pick up a bow (your example) and use it. It has NOTHING to do with level. What DOES have an effect is the character's SKILL level at USING the bow - but ANYBODY CAN PICK UP A BOW AND SHOOT AN ARROW. The skill level of the character dictates accuracy, speed (efficiency), etc. - it does NOT dictate (as most games do) the amount of damage done! Freak - damage is dictated solely by the pull of the bow and the type of arrow (range to some extent). But please let's get over the concept of LEVEL is the only way to go! Ultima Online (just about the first mmorpg) had an excellent pure skill system - NO LEVELS and it made all the sense in the world. Why did it make sense? Because it modeled real life mechanisms. You do NOT need levels - in fact levels make for a very bad system.
Anybody can pick up and likely make work (at some basic functionality) any weapon in their world - right from the start with no training (just what could be considered common knowledge gained from early childhood) - witness children in our real world who can successfully fire a gun and kill someone.
[quote]You COULD make an MMORPG where everyone that joins is issued a fully developed character with whatever gear they want but I'll tell you now it wouldn't last long on the market. Most people get bored when there's nothing to *achieve*.[/quote]
And there's the blind spot that I was talking about. You equate achievement with gaining levels and/or increasing skills. People have gotten so stuck in the rut of character building that they can't imagine doing anything else. They have become convinced that grinding to increase the strength of their character is the only thing a MMORPG could possibly offer.
Well ok, let's just imagine a MMORPG in which you did start out with a fully developed character. I wouldn't go so far as to say you should start out with whatever gear you want, but let's say it isn't hard to get a basic set of equipment fairly quickly. So you're probably wondering--what now? If I can't grind through levels or grind to increase my characters skills what could there possibly be for me to do?
How about adventuring? I imagine a game in which the basis of PvE gameplay is the classic fantasy adventure theme of getting from point A to point B for some specific purpose. And I don't mean mindlessly jogging across empty terrain. I mean a game designed from the ground up with adventuring in mind. I have a lot of fairly detailed thoughts about this but it's really too much to go into here. But one thing I'm certain of is that it would require a degree of consistancy in the world. And not the type of world that is, as someone else pointed out, broken up into the newbie area, the 3-5 area, the 6 to 10 area, and so on.
But you're probably still thinking--what's the reward for this adventuring? What's the motivation? Fair enough. Part of the motivation would be a form of character advancement in equipment upgrades but I wouldn't carry that to extremes. I'm one of those guys who thinks the difference between uber and average equipment shouldn't be so huge.
But aside from improving your equipment you are correct that there does have to be some motivation. Some sense of achievement. Some of the motivation could be in improving you hometown. And I strongly believe in tying characters to a hometown which is [b]their[/b] hometown and giving them reasons to care about it. Again, I have too many ideas about this to go into here.
Part of the motivation could be in unlocking alternate races to play on your account. Or even unlocking a monster/beast to play.
But one of the biggest motivations would simply be in what you accomplish. It should be more about what you have done than what level you are. Maybe you're the guy who slew the dread ogre of Gorlom pass. Maybe you're the guy who undertook an epic quest to destroy an evil artifact so that it wouldn't fall into the wrong hands. But for this type of thing to matter a game world needs to be dynamic rather than static and it has to be possible to [b]fail[/b] at quests.
I also have this idea about building a family history through your actions. By the way, I should mention that my imaginary game has perma-death and family lines. And now you might be wondering what difference perma-death would make if characters start out fully developed. Yeah, well...I have an idea about this which is key to my own particular fantasy world. But I don't think I could do it justice in just a few lines. And really, I don't see what good it would do for me to go into it here anyway. It would be a heck of a lot of typing. And for what? Even if some of you guys liked the idea, none of you are game developers.
But anyway, my basic premise is to move away from character development and focus more on character accomplishments. Not how tough you can build yourself up to be but what have you done with the character you have.
You all say I havent proposed an alternative. Lets say that I had the skills and the people and time to make a new game, right now. This is what my MMORPG would be. We'll set it in a fantasy world since that seems to be what most MMORPGs are set in.
At the beginning, Johnny logs onto the game. He selects Character Creation. He is confronted with the usual race selection, dwarves, elves, humans.... Johnny selects the elves. After that he is confronted with character appearance. He changes his face features with sliders similar to EVE online's. He chooses a body type depending on what he wants to do. We'll say Johnny wants to be an archer. He is going to choose a light body type. So now Johnny has made his character look unique, adding clothes, tatoos, and whatever else.
Then he is confronted with a skill selection. Hundreds of skills are avaliable. Johnny has 10 skill points to spend. He scrolls through the list, he picks ranged weaponry, archery, sprinting, light armor, and a few other neccessary "archer" type skills. He still has 3 skills left, so he looks at some sort of crafting. He chooses herbalism and chemistry, and with his last skill he chooses tailoring.
Creating a character would take time, planning, and thinking. It wouldnt be a 2 minute "select your class, race, and press OK" type of thing most MMORPGs offer.
He presses enter world where he instantly finds himself in one of the *many* elf starting cities. It is a tree city, houses carved out of trunks and treehouses high up in the trees, and many bridges across. A thriving city in the forest. He walks around a little bit and wanders the streets of the city. On one corner is a humble little shop carved out of a massive tree that stands many stories tall. He enters and sees many weapons and armor. And suprise, he sees another REAL character, not an NPC. The other player says "How may I help you?" Johnny responds with "just looking around..." Note that all the weapons that Johnny sees are made by players, either the player running the shop, or players that the shop owner bought it off of.
Suddenly another playing character comes galloping down the streets on his horse. "War! War! An army is headed to this city!! Prepare to fight!"
The shop owner quickly throws Johnny a bow and some light armor. "You'll need this! Get going!" and the shop owner quickly puts up a closed sign and runs out of the store.
Johnny finds himself in the middle of the city, horses and people running all around climbing trees. Over the "local" chat, people saying "archers in the trees, infantry to the gate, go go!" Johnny climbs a tree, all the way to the top, though clumsly, he makes it. Over the tree tops he peers out, and sees a huge PLAYER CHARACTER army slowly approaching the city. Suddenly a barage of flaming arrows falls from the sky, where he sees other players getting hit, falling out of trees and dying around him. Johnny aims his bow into the air and lets fly an arrow and watches it soar over to the mass of players approaching his city. He doesnt see if it hits anyone.
The army reaches the sealed off gate, and begins pounding away at it with a battering ram. You see the players trying to hold the gate closed, but after each ram they are pushed back. Finally th gates are broken through and the battle begins over the streets of the city. The elven infantry are fighting hard against the invading army but it is not enough. The city is lost. Johnny leaps from the tree in an attempt to flee. As he hits, he injurs his leg but is still able to use his sprinting skill. He sprints out the back gate and out into the hills. He is joined by a few surviving players. They run for awhile, but Johnny can't keep up because of his broken leg. Finally they reach an elven fort a few "miles" from the lost city. They enter and Johnny is greeted by another playing character. This one is a doctor. Some say they have magical powers to heal. They put a bandage around Johnny's leg and give him some better equipment, a long bow and some chain mail, as it is inevitable that the invading player army will come to the fort next.
I guess you're getting where I am going with this? The combat is MOSTLY twitch based. The player with the most real, twitch based skills (not ingame) wins. Of course weapon quality matters, and whether or not the player has the right skills to use that weapon or whatever. The fort they ran back to was PLAYER BUILT. It is controlled by players, upkept by players, and will probably be attacked and burned down by players.
With the skill system, it is possible to learn other trades. There are plenty of NPCs that can teach you certain things, but thats obviously going to take time to learn. You cant just walk up to a carpenter and say "teach me to build" and then all the sudden you have this magical power to build a castle in an instant. The NPC will put you through a training program, give out building quests and teach you different buildings and such. It wont be a 5 minute thing to learn a new skill. Thats where character advancement and such comes in. But if your character can wield a sword, it will then come down to twich based, who is the better player.
The game is a thriving world. The only "quests" there will be is learning new skills you will have different tasks to complete. Quests will come from players. Players form the government, they control the land, they build on the land. If a king tells his commanders to attack a certain city, the king just gave out a "quest" to his commanders. The commanders will tell their troops where to go thus giving them "quests". Gring is eliminated, theres a clear character advancement, and the game will be FUN.
Sorry of this is long winded, I got carried away in my dream game. Too bad it will probably never happen.
Badhawk, what you just described fits in pretty closesly with what I imagine for the PvP side of my dream game. Except that in mine the combat wouldn't be so heavily twitch based. It would be based more an an interactive action/response system between the combatants. Happening almost in real time but with enough of a delay (a second or two) between selecting a move and implementation of the move for people to choose their next major action in response to what the other guy is doing and with a degree of less important auto fighting occuring all the while just to keep it feeling lively.
I'm not sure if I can easily describe what I have in mind but it would be something like a cross between chess and poker. Well...no, not really like that either. A fairly complex system of combat moves with one move leading to several possible next moves. But the moves that your opponent makes in response affect what next move you can make...or if the move you've been setting up for will be effective, more effective, or not effective at all.
It would be more of a strategic type of combat and not really very twitchy at all. But requiring good situational awareness and quick responses. It would allow for the possiblility of faking the other guy out, bluffing him into expecting the wrong thing. Anticipation what he is going to do. Responding to his actions quickly and correctly and so on.
It would most definately require player skill but a different kind of player skill. More of mental game than a reflex game I suppose. But I guess this is wandering from the main topic. This is really just getting into a prefrence between twitchy and a non-twitchy alternative. Not that I have anything against twitchy games myself. I have a lot of fun playing first person shooters.
Comments
Just a question, you are looking for a MMORPG or a MMOFPS(like counterstrike but more MMO)?
Levels and RPGs are almost existing in a synbiotic way now...the main difference is when you turn to skills, yet, they are usually only a variation of the level form. No? All the FF serie, SSI products(or Black Isles) and all the RPG that come to mind, they all have levels or skills...or both.
In a FPS, you have a permanent death and restart at zero every new fight...anyway, just wondering...me the closest thing I enjoy playing to a FPS is EQ so...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Check out "Trials of Ascension" at www.shadowpool.com the only thing it won't have is the single server, but ToA is most likely going to be a Long time coming and is showing very little progress atm.
But still, it's listed all the qualities I was looking for and has made the other MMO's I look at seem less interesting now (Just my opinion and taste).
IMO I think that leveling a character should only take you so far, maybe giving a mild edge in combat by making your attacks "more affective" by having them do slightly more damage. Something to denote that you're an experienced player, but something that makes your abilities in combat speak for themselves, rather than the A typical who can click a thousand times faster battles.
Now someone earlier mentioned that the aspect of "grinding" deals with the philosophy of the player, but if you've ever played MMORPGs the first you should know is that to the general online populace tends to place PvP above any other in game aspect(even though I would not). Your ability to PvP automatically sets you apart from a number of other players, and as a noob you're gonna take some nasty whooppings from grievers and every other egotistical, angry asshole that finds some great sense of pleasure in killing someone weaker. Also most "grind oriented" games have a map filled with all types of different mobs of many different "levels of skill". Basically in these types of games, the average player is more proned to stay in an environment that supports the capabilities of his character. If he can't fight certain mobs beyond that point and walks over there and suddenly get aggroed and dies, he's not likely to do it again(especially considering the fact that most "grind oriented" games are very unfriendly to player deaths in terms of losing items and whatnot).
But the biggest problem is when grinding and PvP are the only things to do. You can explore all you want but when there's nothing to explore other than coming across more mobs, there really isn't much incentive to do it in the first place. When I say this I think of games like Lineage 2. You could explore all day, but the only thing you'd find would be more mobs. Anarchy Online is pretty much the same way, you can explore all you want, but there's not much to find and grinding/pvp are the two main things to do. It's not that gamers aren't playing the games the way they should to avoid the grinding, it's the simple fact that, without the proper incentive to motivate an action or provide a noticeable benefit to your character, the majority of people won't bother wasting time doing it. Hence the reason that so little RP is actually involved in mmoRPGs these days.
Open PvP: already some games have it, some like some dont, can lead to griefing
Sounds like if you got through in WoW in 2 months you are quite the powergamer. It sounds like any new content is coming out too slowly for your pace of play. So to not everyone do the same quest over and over again, that essentially requires the developers to make each and every thousands and thousands of players have their own individual experience of play. Quite hard, and from what im used too most RPGs are linear based where everyone ends up doing the same basic stuff, but have the option to do other things to chance the experience and there is no multiplarer interaction of course.
There are a lot of games that have done contruction/crafting well, just other parts of the game lacked.
I agree with the said grind, its a 'grind' since you make it a grind. I can maybe see it for some games where it seems to be a grind playing the second character, that is what WoW is good about, you always have some quest, an objective of sorts. So what if millions of others have done it, it is your own experience you are doing, and you have the option to do it with others and to make it as much of of an experience as you want. Sounds like you want a game that gives a alternate reality where you can live an second life. Closest thing i have seen to what you want is some games with events that do change their servers or more interaction with the world say like Shadowbane, but the fact there is no such game that you want, why even bother complaining or playing them in the first place? You know what they are like and seen what the new games have turned too, do not expect your prize game anytime soon.
my random blurbs
There he is!
Inevitably, whenever someone starts a thread with complaints and/or ideas, some clod comes along, takes the idea, and runs off the edge of the map in the opposite direction, then tries to pin it on the original poster like he's the absurd one.
You like German beer? Oh, then you must think all Jews should die.
Obvously, Jorev, we're talking about alternate methods of character advancement, like an attribute/skill system.
Sounds like you would enjoy EvE online if you want a game where attributes and skills do not raise through combat or usage, because that would entail some grinding aspect.
Eve online you just learn a skill and that's it, everyone is at the same level of skill.
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Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
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www.vanguardsoh
Maybe a specialised gameplay would work better? I mean your level dont matter the same way or not at all in PvP as it does in PvE?
I mean, removing levels and skills pretty much kill a lot from the PvE, but nobody say PvP and PvE should share the same rules and the same systems, nor the same zones or the rewards. I think the PvP system need to be completely independant from the PvE system?
I never agree that someone killing PvE mobs should get any edge killing players, and I never agree that someone hunting in a PvP zone get any edge fighting in a PvE setting.
Dont you think it would be better to actually have 5+ game system rather then having 1 goofy system that try to mixt everything and invariably shaft the 4 others if not all the 5? I rather have a system that lead be to be to the TOP of noob03 zone, but dont help me anywhere else, then been unable to reach my goal! The best peoples in a sector should be the peoples that play it, focus on it and earn it...not peoples playing another aspect of the game the devs think is more worthy, no?
Killing levels is certainly the worst thing I can think of when PvE grouping is concerned...shoudl PvP be affected by those levels? I dont think it should, and neither should it affect the PvE setting.
Think back of Mythica...you are an eternal spirit for a Goddess or something. Unlike Mythica plans, you create an avatar of your spirit on different worlds, with completely different goals and objectives in order to promote your Goddess. Each world have different rules, gameplay, features, goals, grind, maybe even skills...still using the same engine and 1 very flexible rule setting system. In an expension, the company can add more worlds with new differents setting as well as developp the most popular worlds. Maybe you can have many side games, some been affected by some worlds and what you earn there, some not, some by others...I mean the possibilities are many, the options are immense! Yes, some world could have no grind and permadeath, and the goal might be to get level 20 and sacrifice your hero avatar for the glory of your god and your avatar...And if you think it make a lot of eternal spirit, I would invite you to check the ''Blood war'' in D&D setting, you will see that even with millions of players, it is only a tiny fraction of what is going on...At your own convenience, casuals worlds performance can affect trivially the more hardcores identical but harders setting but not the other ways, casuals need to reach their top, it is vital. So yes, a world at least would be dedicated to some PvP and you would have to earn everything in this world, not in the pink land of carebear reserves where I will prolly be myself!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I hate to say it.... well actually i love to say it.
idiot, shut up.
lol j/k
in all truths mmorpgs require levels... And if not levels some sort of skill advancement, etc.
yes yes i know what your saying, NO THEY DONT NEED IT.
The problem is with todays gamers, you need some sort of objective or goal, or something similar. If you log into a game, where you have no character advancement besides maybe items. Your not going to hold a audiance.
With games like eve and planetside, its acceptable, because its quick fix game.
if your looking at games like EQ/daoc (you know, your just a guy in a fantasy world) t won't work.
You'd see all the content in the world fast, because there are no limitations, and youd be clammering for more.
With a level based system, you have something to look forward to ALL the time. Lets say your level 10, you look into the store, and see full plate armor, level 15, you have enough to buy it, and you go out and you kill and you get to 15. Now you can use the armor, and your like wow this is nice! w00t and you run around owning things merrily.
Or at coh, levels 1-14(i think its 14...been awhile) your waiting for your travel power. 14-20 your cape, 20-30 aura, 30-42(i think) your final powers. Sure its not a great example but you get the idea.
But the problem with games is that they don't spread out content enough so you have a variety of activities to do. For example, Bladin is a level 35 sorceror, he has 2 quests to do, and only 2 areas to go to. lets say thats the general feel for every level. So when you go to make a new character, you basically have to follow the same path.
What you guys want, is not the level system removed. But mroe content added inbetween levels and at the end.
Lets go back into Bladin the sorcerers world. He is now level 40, he can go to the tower of fire, the river of the damned, the forest of the mists, the dungeon of thraek, or the mountain of the cthelzin. Those are just places to explore and adventure for 40-45. Each has a large number of quests. And can be soloed or grouped. when he hits 45 he can now access 5 other areas etc etc etc.
Enough so you always have some place to go, and something new to see. New challenges, new monsters, new items. Always something to look forward to.
But the problem is, with a system like that, people would still rush thinking levels are needed for fun. But in all truths, levels are nothing but a system that enables you to see all the content in the world, except some people feel that the levels themselves are fun... thats where the problem is. Without levels, harder content would feel trivial and meaningless. And the weaker content would be breezed through.
If you want a entire world, with allways something to look foward to, you need levels.
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I'm not saying that levels are bad in anyway, shape or form, but when I log in each day I would like some reason to log in other than to reach x level and buy x amout of items so I can reach y level and buy y amount of items. At that point it's just an ongoing circle of boredom. There are many aspects of game play that come together to make that beautiful blend of an MMORPG such as exploring, role playing, crafting, creating(cities, towns, etc.), pvp, pve, siege warfare, strategy, etc. All of these things are equally important as each one is valued by different player types, but I've played plenty of MMORPGs and the recent trend seems to be adopting a very tedius cycle of game play that I find lacking in content period. It's a bland series of grinding, buying, grinding, buying, rinse and repeat.
It's all about motivation. What motivates you to perform a given action in game? What is it that keeps you interested, or motivated to continually play on a regular basis. Obviously it's the content that's going to make the difference, but it's the quality of the content and my point is that so many games of today or so focused on the grinding aspect that they leave out a great deal of content outside of that. And it's not because they simply forget about it, if you conduct a survey on the general gaming public on what aspect of an MMORPG you find most important, PvP is bound to come out on top. So as a developer it only makes sense to create a system that requires a lot of time and effort on a player's part to partake in combat at a level at which he or she feels they have a chance at victory. The level based system is the most common form of this, they create a series of levels and a level cap for the players to hit after a great deal of playing and then from there allow the skills they've invested in, or the skills defined by their class do the rest in combat. Why waste valuable time a great deal of non combat related content when it's the most favored aspect of the game play.
Maybe it's just me here, but I just think there should be some skill involved in PvP so it's not some mindless effort that favors the older generation of players. I think that levels are fine when they merely curb your combat skills in some mild form as opposed to this dramatic difference you see from level to level. It definately creates a competitive nature in the community when it comes to the grinding, which is probably why it's as successful as it is, but it just doesn't last for me. My typical trend with those types of games involves me hitting the level cap, exploring all there is to explore, taking a week or two to pvp the crap out of my would-be competitors, maybe participate in a few sieges(territorial conflict, a newer trend in MMORPGs of today), and then call it quits. And afterwards I'm left with this feeling that I wasted more time being bored trying to hit the level cap to enjoy what the majority of the game's content had to offer, rather than actually having fun. And it's not about how I play, it's about how limited the game's content really is, and how restrictive it is to people who simply choose not to grind their way to the top.
Neg.
Skill-based advancement systems work quite nicely, thanks. I don't recall ever playing UO and saying "Man, I've got my Swordsmanship to 100, there's just nothing to do now!"
No, it was more of "Well, I'm a 7x GM, I guess I could either kill people, or explore dungeons, or go treasure hunting with a treasure hunter, or go make some money, or go trade rares like they're goin out of style (salt shakers for 250k anyone?) or start a guild war, or start a new guild, or hunt for a spot to place a house/tower/keep/castle, or go hunt PKs, or randomly suicide bomb someone at the bank, or gee, I dunno...RP marry some other guy that happens to be playing a female character."
Just a list of examples.
And you know what? I can do any of those things at any point. With a brand-spanking-new character. It would be a ...little harder, I guess. Y'know, Pking someone with a new-rolled character is pretty tough. But when you and 5 friends manage it, boy is it sweet! Deadly poisoned daggers, anyone?
Levels are not a requirement for any reason, nor do I feel that they make for more fun while advancing. They are unnatural, clumsy restrictions that do little to enrich the gaming experience.
Skills just make more sense. Someone, please, explain to me: Why can't a level 10 druid wear full plate? My 14 year old cousin could wear full plate, however akwardly.
And why can't a level X Priest backstab? You would think that with his/her knowledge of healing, you know, including anatomy and whatnot, that vital spots would be as obvious to him/her as it would be to a rogue.
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Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
The fundamental problems with levels is that it encourages mmorpg design where the purpose is the next uber item, the next level reward. And there's little else to do (PvP of course, but the level system plus point n click combat has destroyed what could be amazing on this front). Seems bizarre to me that mmorpgs have copied the single player rpg level system when singple player rpgs can do all this (and more) much better. Shall i spell out the difference? OK, in a single plyr rpg all the quests/missions/ items are unique since you are the only one playing- to some degree you do effect the world you play in! Of course, in mmorpgs the opposite is true.
I agree with the above poster that said mmorpgs should be an alternate world with the massive freedoms that entails. A complex virtual world may require more effort to "play" but will be a true online experience for years. While WoW et al. are "fun" for a few weeks but are ultimately pointless and unfulfilling.
The problem we facec that so many mmorpg players have been conditioned to the level-based/ strict quest grind system. They don't want and can't handle a mmorpg where the player has ultimate freedom and a bewildering number of choices and actions ina complex world.
A mmorpg should not be based on the foundations of the single player rpg. Unfortunately 99% of mmorpgs out there are (except maybe Eve and SWG and RV).
I have to agree. I think class based level systems are slowly going to die out as more and more MMORPG's come out with skill based systems. SWG is even modifying it's structure so that the skill trees aren't as locked to a profession, allowing more versatility in making your character the way YOU want him to be. Much like UO was.
However, unless you are planning to play an MMOFPS you are never going to get rid of some kind of in-game advancement system. The only way to eliminate an advancement system of some kind is to make a game a purely twitch FPS with a direct damage model because if you use a COD (Cone of Death) then you are going to wind up with some kind of skill system to reduce the COD's size, I guarantee it.
So here's the quandry:
You don't like level systems the "grind" as you put it.
So why do you play MMORPG's? I'd say you are more of an MMOFPS person. Go play PlanetSide or Tribes or something of that nature. They are geared for that so that you don't have to deal with the 'grind'. Just hop online and blow people up. That's what you want right?
Look I'm not trying to flame you but all you are doing is complaining. I don't see a constructive idea on how to eliminate the 'grind' in your post. Just that you don't like it. I replied earlier that the only reason you think there's a 'grind' is because you insist on getting to X level as fast as possible. THAT is when it becomes a grind.
In EQ, prime example of a game people liked to grind in, I was able to reach level 50. I never spent more than a couple hours in any given zone. And this was before Kunark even came out. There were enough places to go within any given level range for me to have fun, do various quests and advance my character without ever getting bored. I got to see new places fight new things, finish different quests, etc.
In newer games it's even EASIER to do that.
1) Explore, get to know the world. Don't sit in 1 area until you feel you can leave it. I guarantee there are other areas you can go to to hunt! Something that always amazed me was that when I was playing EQ there were level 50 characters (pre Kunark) who couldn't find their way from Qeynos to Freeport..... I was making that run at level 13... And then when Kunark came out it just got worse. People couldn't find a zone that was 3 zones away without going and digging up a map. To me half the fun is exploring. Sure you might get killed but isn't just finding new things and places to go half the fun?
2) Do the quests, they are a great way to gain experienc/skills/levels. If a game has Quests take advantage of them to break the monotony. Doing Quests I often discovered new places to visit and hunt in. I met new people to talk to and got to see parts of the world I probably wouldn't have otherwise.
3) Meet people, have fun, get to know folks. Half the reason EQ was so addictive is the friendships that it generated. Honestly the only reason I log into old EQ at all anymore is to visit friends online occasionally. Most of us have moved on but those friends who haven't I still go back to visit. Thank god I have a SOE All Access Pass.
4) If the game is multi-dimensional go craft, fly a spaceship, become a trader or whatever. One of the reasons I enjoy SWG so much is that if I get bored hunting I can go craft. Or I can go fly my X-Wing or I can go and fight in PVP or I can go work on my house or whatever. It's hard to get bored because there are so many different things to do. The 'grind' just doesn't exist for me.
Like I said, any MMORPG is going to have some sort of in-game advancement system. You can rant and rave about it all you want but without an advancement system it's just not an MMORPG. You COULD make an MMORPG where everyone that joins is issued a fully developed character with whatever gear they want but I'll tell you now it wouldn't last long on the market. Most people get bored when there's nothing to *achieve*.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
But that's the whole point- i don't want mmorpgs that have quests!! That's a single player rpg thing.
I'll spell out what i want - a mmorpg based on player interaction (in my book its ok if that encompasses player controlled npcs), huge variey of constructs, objects are destructible, huge world (single server), political system, twitch based PvP.
The twitch based PvP will be based on two factors: (i) a skill system where the player cant see the numbers and where the basic skills increase very slowly based on use and (ii) the economy - huge variety of equipment the player can use, which will obviously cost varying amounts of cash. You earn money through interacting with other players. NPCs don't give quests or rewards - NPCs only exist as minions of players to be employed (you gotta pay them!) to run your shops, guard your houses, fight for you on the battlefield, etc.
So you can see that's no Planetside! M
Many community members have suggested alternatives to the current mmorpg model (look at rent's post a while back). The issue is not that alternatives aren't possible but that devs, publishers and some playes are stuck in the existing cul-de-sac mmorpg model.
Really there is no harm in having "quests" but as you suggested making quests player content is the way to go if you're looking for diversity. What's often failed to realize is that you don't need a special interface to do it. Just have player a to send a letter to player b and handing him a reward upon completion of the quest. You don't need special game design to do that because it is already available, it is only limited by the availability of the two players. All you need for that is to have a player base open to this type of quests. If you want to see it in action (players actively contributing to the content in form of quests and politics) I suggest you go take a look at nexustk. The game might not fit your graphical needs (flat 2D) but it has big parts of the type of gameplay you are talking about. Ruling out npc's completely is an option that is very hard to achieve, a few names come to mind where the devs had attempted it but where in the end it failed due to the narrowminded vision of players.
Hiding the numbers might be the most important thing an mmorpg developper needs to realize. As long as a character is defined by its numbers it will to most only be the numbers while a character is far more then that. In that way levels have no place in modern mmorpgs. While the whole level system might still exist behind the character mechanics causing your twitch based PvP there has to be a fading effect on those level benefits if the skills aren't used.
What you are basicly asking for is mass amounts of content and the next level in reality terms of an mmorpg. I can see part of these dreams come true in games as Dark and Light, Roma Victor, Darkfall,... Thing is that it remains the vision of a world to come that is watered down from what indepth gamers and devs really want to something that will skyrocket sales and please to the masses. It is all in the risk the publisher is willing to take where it used to be the risk the developper was willing to take. If you look at the huge budgets used to devellop recent games aiming for a niche market is much more of a risk then it used to be as well. It's a choice between looking behind the graphics to the gameplay and looking at the candy you're offered on first sight and with huge advertising. To add to this, publishers have yet to discover the benefits of long term strategy in mmorpg's, most are relatively new to the market and only transplanting their single player game sales strategies on masive multiplayer online game sales strategies.
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Levels have no place in modern MMORPGS.
Grinding is what makes MMORPGs the most boring, tedious games on the market.
Your second statement said it better I believe. Levels are not what's killing MMOGs, but rather that nasty little spawn of real-life capitalism and company lethargy - the grind. As long as people continue to make money pumping out games with "the grind" they'll continue to implement it as a standard. In one game I played, you could get experience for doing jobs (or use jobs for community service preferable to serving hard time - don't ask me on this one
). I think there are plenty of fun, interesting, or simply involving ways to earn experience other than the grind. And if developers simply stretch their imaginations enough, they'll find what many of us already have.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Only read the first couple of posts and scanned the rest. To my surprice I didn't see anyone mention Guild Wars.
Guild Wars:
Max lvl 20, which is achieveble in a weekend.
You can get items good enough to compete in top competetion PvP in around a week. In most PvP you can just use the items gained while lvl'ing, your skill in playing will have such a large impact that you wont notice that you don't have top notch items, this is only seen if you compete on high lvl.
Game is instanced, so you only meet random people in cities, all pvp is in pvp areas, and therefore consensual. This also makes pvp fair and skill based, because you will always go up against of teams of same size, and because lvl'ing is a non factor, you will also be same lvl.
Anyway, game is out 28th of April, www.guildwars.com
I'd like to see a game wich holds both, a decent leveling system not only leveling by killing monsters but allso by crafting etc. BUT, these levels will affect your ability to cast new spells or wield better weapons, but not to make you tougher than the other players, adding STR or INT or whatever to your char, but just weapon levels to use the types of weapons you need.
Allso, in real life, it takes practice to achieve the needed skill to use a bow for example, thats why you need levels for weapon types, but not overall levels, wich usually make people whoop some newbie's who are pretty defenceless against it, but if those newbie's had the same stats they started with, they still hold a chance against the more experienced player who still has his same stats from when he started, yet he still holds an advantage for being more skilled and for spending time ingame, and therefor gets a reward of wielding better weapons and casting better spells.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
1) Skills increase very slowly based on use: Grind
So I'm going to assume that you want something like this:
2) Variety of equipment players can use : Who makes them? NPC's or other players? If it's other players then you have a grind to get the skills necessary to make them, otherwise anyone can make anything for free.
3) Cost you varying ammts of cash: Where does the cash come from?
4) Cach through interacting with other players.... where do THEY get the cash? There has to be a source of money. Players can't just spit dollar bills outta their behinds ya know
1) Skill based game with Twitch PVP (hmm sounds like UO and SWG but you want the numbers hidden, that's fine)
2) NPC Vendors that sell stuff... this is do-able or PC vendors that sell stuff... also doable.
I'm still lost as to where the money is generated from? Is this a pure PVP environment where you get cash for killing other players? Sounds like a griefer's dream come true to me. Or are you going to get money from killing NPC's? HMMM sounds like a money grind to me.
So you've just described a skill based system where some players will find it imperative upon them to grind so they can max their skills as quickly as possible. And unless you can clarify where the money is coming from it sounds like, at minimum, a cash grind system as well where if you want XXX dollars you have to go grind in some manner to get that money.
As I said, the only way to truely eliminate any chance of 'grinding' in a game is to make it a pure FPS with no money requirement and no skill requirement. Kind of like PlanetSide is now.
I'm not sure where you can say "I want a skill system that goes up slowly as you use your skills" and not say that can't turn into a grind.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Why is it that so many people apparently do NOT understand the concept of skill based? You do NOT need levels to represent your example. In fact, levels are about the worst way of doing it. In a good skill based system (emulating real life), ANY character regardless of being brand new or not CAN and SHOULD be able to pick up a bow (your example) and use it. It has NOTHING to do with level. What DOES have an effect is the character's SKILL level at USING the bow - but ANYBODY CAN PICK UP A BOW AND SHOOT AN ARROW. The skill level of the character dictates accuracy, speed (efficiency), etc. - it does NOT dictate (as most games do) the amount of damage done! Freak - damage is dictated solely by the pull of the bow and the type of arrow (range to some extent). But please let's get over the concept of LEVEL is the only way to go! Ultima Online (just about the first mmorpg) had an excellent pure skill system - NO LEVELS and it made all the sense in the world. Why did it make sense? Because it modeled real life mechanisms. You do NOT need levels - in fact levels make for a very bad system.
Anybody can pick up and likely make work (at some basic functionality) any weapon in their world - right from the start with no training (just what could be considered common knowledge gained from early childhood) - witness children in our real world who can successfully fire a gun and kill someone.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
[quote]You COULD make an MMORPG where everyone that joins is issued a fully developed character with whatever gear they want but I'll tell you now it wouldn't last long on the market. Most people get bored when there's nothing to *achieve*.[/quote]
And there's the blind spot that I was talking about. You equate achievement with gaining levels and/or increasing skills. People have gotten so stuck in the rut of character building that they can't imagine doing anything else. They have become convinced that grinding to increase the strength of their character is the only thing a MMORPG could possibly offer.
Well ok, let's just imagine a MMORPG in which you did start out with a fully developed character. I wouldn't go so far as to say you should start out with whatever gear you want, but let's say it isn't hard to get a basic set of equipment fairly quickly. So you're probably wondering--what now? If I can't grind through levels or grind to increase my characters skills what could there possibly be for me to do?
How about adventuring? I imagine a game in which the basis of PvE gameplay is the classic fantasy adventure theme of getting from point A to point B for some specific purpose. And I don't mean mindlessly jogging across empty terrain. I mean a game designed from the ground up with adventuring in mind. I have a lot of fairly detailed thoughts about this but it's really too much to go into here. But one thing I'm certain of is that it would require a degree of consistancy in the world. And not the type of world that is, as someone else pointed out, broken up into the newbie area, the 3-5 area, the 6 to 10 area, and so on.
But you're probably still thinking--what's the reward for this adventuring? What's the motivation? Fair enough. Part of the motivation would be a form of character advancement in equipment upgrades but I wouldn't carry that to extremes. I'm one of those guys who thinks the difference between uber and average equipment shouldn't be so huge.
But aside from improving your equipment you are correct that there does have to be some motivation. Some sense of achievement. Some of the motivation could be in improving you hometown. And I strongly believe in tying characters to a hometown which is [b]their[/b] hometown and giving them reasons to care about it. Again, I have too many ideas about this to go into here.
Part of the motivation could be in unlocking alternate races to play on your account. Or even unlocking a monster/beast to play.
But one of the biggest motivations would simply be in what you accomplish. It should be more about what you have done than what level you are. Maybe you're the guy who slew the dread ogre of Gorlom pass. Maybe you're the guy who undertook an epic quest to destroy an evil artifact so that it wouldn't fall into the wrong hands. But for this type of thing to matter a game world needs to be dynamic rather than static and it has to be possible to [b]fail[/b] at quests.
I also have this idea about building a family history through your actions. By the way, I should mention that my imaginary game has perma-death and family lines. And now you might be wondering what difference perma-death would make if characters start out fully developed. Yeah, well...I have an idea about this which is key to my own particular fantasy world. But I don't think I could do it justice in just a few lines. And really, I don't see what good it would do for me to go into it here anyway. It would be a heck of a lot of typing. And for what? Even if some of you guys liked the idea, none of you are game developers.
But anyway, my basic premise is to move away from character development and focus more on character accomplishments. Not how tough you can build yourself up to be but what have you done with the character you have.
You all say I havent proposed an alternative. Lets say that I had the skills and the people and time to make a new game, right now. This is what my MMORPG would be. We'll set it in a fantasy world since that seems to be what most MMORPGs are set in.
At the beginning, Johnny logs onto the game. He selects Character Creation. He is confronted with the usual race selection, dwarves, elves, humans....
Johnny selects the elves. After that he is confronted with character appearance. He changes his face features with sliders similar to EVE online's. He chooses a body type depending on what he wants to do. We'll say Johnny wants to be an archer. He is going to choose a light body type. So now Johnny has made his character look unique, adding clothes, tatoos, and whatever else.
Then he is confronted with a skill selection. Hundreds of skills are avaliable. Johnny has 10 skill points to spend. He scrolls through the list, he picks ranged weaponry, archery, sprinting, light armor, and a few other neccessary "archer" type skills. He still has 3 skills left, so he looks at some sort of crafting. He chooses herbalism and chemistry, and with his last skill he chooses tailoring.
Creating a character would take time, planning, and thinking. It wouldnt be a 2 minute "select your class, race, and press OK" type of thing most MMORPGs offer.
He presses enter world where he instantly finds himself in one of the *many* elf starting cities. It is a tree city, houses carved out of trunks and treehouses high up in the trees, and many bridges across. A thriving city in the forest. He walks around a little bit and wanders the streets of the city. On one corner is a humble little shop carved out of a massive tree that stands many stories tall. He enters and sees many weapons and armor. And suprise, he sees another REAL character, not an NPC. The other player says "How may I help you?" Johnny responds with "just looking around..." Note that all the weapons that Johnny sees are made by players, either the player running the shop, or players that the shop owner bought it off of.
Suddenly another playing character comes galloping down the streets on his horse. "War! War! An army is headed to this city!! Prepare to fight!"
The shop owner quickly throws Johnny a bow and some light armor. "You'll need this! Get going!" and the shop owner quickly puts up a closed sign and runs out of the store.
Johnny finds himself in the middle of the city, horses and people running all around climbing trees. Over the "local" chat, people saying "archers in the trees, infantry to the gate, go go!" Johnny climbs a tree, all the way to the top, though clumsly, he makes it. Over the tree tops he peers out, and sees a huge PLAYER CHARACTER army slowly approaching the city. Suddenly a barage of flaming arrows falls from the sky, where he sees other players getting hit, falling out of trees and dying around him. Johnny aims his bow into the air and lets fly an arrow and watches it soar over to the mass of players approaching his city. He doesnt see if it hits anyone.
The army reaches the sealed off gate, and begins pounding away at it with a battering ram. You see the players trying to hold the gate closed, but after each ram they are pushed back. Finally th gates are broken through and the battle begins over the streets of the city. The elven infantry are fighting hard against the invading army but it is not enough. The city is lost. Johnny leaps from the tree in an attempt to flee. As he hits, he injurs his leg but is still able to use his sprinting skill. He sprints out the back gate and out into the hills. He is joined by a few surviving players. They run for awhile, but Johnny can't keep up because of his broken leg. Finally they reach an elven fort a few "miles" from the lost city. They enter and Johnny is greeted by another playing character. This one is a doctor. Some say they have magical powers to heal. They put a bandage around Johnny's leg and give him some better equipment, a long bow and some chain mail, as it is inevitable that the invading player army will come to the fort next.
I guess you're getting where I am going with this? The combat is MOSTLY twitch based. The player with the most real, twitch based skills (not ingame) wins. Of course weapon quality matters, and whether or not the player has the right skills to use that weapon or whatever. The fort they ran back to was PLAYER BUILT. It is controlled by players, upkept by players, and will probably be attacked and burned down by players.
With the skill system, it is possible to learn other trades. There are plenty of NPCs that can teach you certain things, but thats obviously going to take time to learn. You cant just walk up to a carpenter and say "teach me to build" and then all the sudden you have this magical power to build a castle in an instant. The NPC will put you through a training program, give out building quests and teach you different buildings and such. It wont be a 5 minute thing to learn a new skill. Thats where character advancement and such comes in. But if your character can wield a sword, it will then come down to twich based, who is the better player.
The game is a thriving world. The only "quests" there will be is learning new skills you will have different tasks to complete. Quests will come from players. Players form the government, they control the land, they build on the land. If a king tells his commanders to attack a certain city, the king just gave out a "quest" to his commanders. The commanders will tell their troops where to go thus giving them "quests". Gring is eliminated, theres a clear character advancement, and the game will be FUN.
Sorry of this is long winded, I got carried away in my dream game. Too bad it will probably never happen.
The only game I think may fullfill my hopes for a game like this is Roma Victor..
posssibly Darkfall Online too, but that seems to be vaporware, no updates.
Badhawk, what you just described fits in pretty closesly with what I imagine for the PvP side of my dream game. Except that in mine the combat wouldn't be so heavily twitch based. It would be based more an an interactive action/response system between the combatants. Happening almost in real time but with enough of a delay (a second or two) between selecting a move and implementation of the move for people to choose their next major action in response to what the other guy is doing and with a degree of less important auto fighting occuring all the while just to keep it feeling lively.
I'm not sure if I can easily describe what I have in mind but it would be something like a cross between chess and poker. Well...no, not really like that either. A fairly complex system of combat moves with one move leading to several possible next moves. But the moves that your opponent makes in response affect what next move you can make...or if the move you've been setting up for will be effective, more effective, or not effective at all.
It would be more of a strategic type of combat and not really very twitchy at all. But requiring good situational awareness and quick responses. It would allow for the possiblility of faking the other guy out, bluffing him into expecting the wrong thing. Anticipation what he is going to do. Responding to his actions quickly and correctly and so on.
It would most definately require player skill but a different kind of player skill. More of mental game than a reflex game I suppose. But I guess this is wandering from the main topic. This is really just getting into a prefrence between twitchy and a non-twitchy alternative. Not that I have anything against twitchy games myself. I have a lot of fun playing first person shooters.