@badhawk, the main problem with that game concept is that it only serves the hardcore roleplaying people. not the mainstream kiddies who enjoy killing things.
and if its not aimed at the mainstream crowd then it will not generate enough money to surive.
(im no expert on mmorpg business but thats how i view it)
Originally posted by Neanderthal Badhawk, what you just described fits in pretty closesly with what I imagine for the PvP side of my dream game. Except that in mine the combat wouldn't be so heavily twitch based. It would be based more an an interactive action/response system between the combatants. Happening almost in real time but with enough of a delay (a second or two) between selecting a move and implementation of the move for people to choose their next major action in response to what the other guy is doing and with a degree of less important auto fighting occuring all the while just to keep it feeling lively. I'm not sure if I can easily describe what I have in mind but it would be something like a cross between chess and poker. Well...no, not really like that either. A fairly complex system of combat moves with one move leading to several possible next moves. But the moves that your opponent makes in response affect what next move you can make...or if the move you've been setting up for will be effective, more effective, or not effective at all. It would be more of a strategic type of combat and not really very twitchy at all. But requiring good situational awareness and quick responses. It would allow for the possiblility of faking the other guy out, bluffing him into expecting the wrong thing. Anticipation what he is going to do. Responding to his actions quickly and correctly and so on. It would most definately require player skill but a different kind of player skill. More of mental game than a reflex game I suppose. But I guess this is wandering from the main topic. This is really just getting into a prefrence between twitchy and a non-twitchy alternative. Not that I have anything against twitchy games myself. I have a lot of fun playing first person shooters.
I think I know what you're talking about and it actually sounds like a really good idea. That way it would make it possible to parry and such and could add certain skills and attacks like parry and such. That would be another cool idea for combat, it would be fast paced, but require alot of planning and not just run in twitching. As long as there is an even playfield, no "level 30 player automatically kills a level 15 player in one hit" kinda crap. Good idea
Originally posted by MurderScene @badhawk, the main problem with that game concept is that it only serves the hardcore roleplaying people. not the mainstream kiddies who enjoy killing things. and if its not aimed at the mainstream crowd then it will not generate enough money to surive. (im no expert on mmorpg business but thats how i view it)
btw: i agree, levels are boring.
And that, sadly, is why we'll never be able to play out a scenario like that. Most people think that RPGs are about leveling up and killing as many monsters as you can, and forget the whole aspect of role playing.
I'm no "role player" myself. I dont go around playing elaborate characters or anything, but I think a small element of role play could only help a game 100%.
Originally posted by Badhawk Levels are the reason WoW failed to hold my attention for longer then 2 months...levels are the reason Anarchy Online bored me to death. Lineage 2 is another prime example of how levels completely ruined a game. As it stands now, MMORPGs are the most pointless genre of game out there. "Kill 5 monsters and get to level 10". What happens when you get to level 10? You kill 6 monsters to get to level 11. When you're level 11 you just kill a few more higher level monsters. Theres no point but to kill higher level monsters. Grinding is what makes MMORPGs the most boring, tedious games on the market. I don't know about you, but I play MMORPGs because of the MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER aspect. I play for player interaction, for opportunities to take part in massive battles, build cities together. I love the idea of thousands of real people just like me all in one world. What modern MMORPGs should be focusing on is a balanced skill based system, massive PvP battles, crafting system, a real economy, and PLAYER FREEDOM. When I log into a game, I want to go in and be able to find some raging war with hundreds of other players fighting over something that matters (land, cities, whatever). If I've been playing the game for 2 weeks, I still want to be able to compete against people who have been playing for 2 years. Not that I should be able to kill them easily, but I just hate the fact that in most MMORPGs, you have to grind for 6 months to get to any fun part of the game. I want to own my own city and raise an army of other players to help defend it. I want to open my humble little shop and sell stuff I made, and not have to worry about needing to finish some quest that a thousand people have done before me and a thousand people will do after me with absolutely no affect on the game but to reset the NPC so the next Elf Druid clone can do it. The problem with 99% of MMORPGs out there is that you are a clone if every other Dwarf Warrior or Elf Druid or Human Mage out there. All of you will most likely use the same type of armor (there is usually only a few types of "good" armor in most games), all of you will probably use the same weapons and cast the same spells, and probably look almost identical. It's time MMMORPGs move into the next generation where you are not a clone, and your actions actually matter in a game. When is this game coming out? If you know about a game I just described, PLEASE tell me. I'd like to know.
i feel that most MMORPG's these days are basically the same as the ones that are out, have been out, and historical ones. with minor differences being the only thing different.
this is why i look forward to DnL
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you''re one of the 2% who hasn''t, copy & paste this in your signature.
One of the main reasons I followed Wish so closely is that it promised a "flat leveling system". The game was actually skill based, but the idea is that no matter how good your skills are, the new players's can compete with you. So even if a person is maxed out, a massive group of complete newbies with simple swords can still defeat him. A big improvement over the typical leveling.
Badhawk, an interesting system. But I would prefer the skills to progress from use. But not much and over long periods of time, so that if you selected archery as one of your primary skills, the maximum you could ever get is twice the accuracy (you would never actually get there, but you would approach the limit as you practice the skill). Oh, and all skills can progress, just the ones you selected start pretty high. And, most importantly, attack depends only on your weapon and basic stats, which never progress (maybe allow str/dex to progress a little). The hp and defence of the character is fixed based on race/body type. And the difference between the power of uber vs. normal weapons is not big.
So, you see, everybody has their own spin on what they want their game to be.
But largely, I like your idea. Too bad that too many people want to have leveling in their games.
By the way, I first became annoyed with the progress of levels in Morrowind, a single player game, where mobs are leveled! In it, the skills progress, but they progress too fast/too far and with them your HP increases, making you the god of the game.
Originally posted by Neanderthal But one of the biggest motivations would simply be in what you accomplish. It should be more about what you have done than what level you are. Maybe you're the guy who slew the dread ogre of Gorlom pass. Maybe you're the guy who undertook an epic quest to destroy an evil artifact so that it wouldn't fall into the wrong hands. But for this type of thing to matter a game world needs to be dynamic rather than static and it has to be possible to [b]fail[/b] at quests. I also have this idea about building a family history through your actions. By the way, I should mention that my imaginary game has perma-death and family lines.
I completely agree here. The problem with today's games is the underlying stattic nature of the system. As an AI programmer (though not in the gaming market), it seems that the developers take shortcuts in the design of these environments. I played WoW for about a month and got so bored because every quest I was doing had been done before - you kill this guy, he gets respawned, again and agains so nothing you do in the game really matters. I think Neanderthal has the right idea with perma-death and family lines but I would also extend this to NPC's and mobs. Everything becomes finite - a character's life, enemies, resources, everything. That creates a truly dynamic world - you can't make a weapon if there's no mined metal, no mined metal if there's nothing left in the mine etc. This fits in with cross-realm economies and wars where a particular resource in short supply becomes a strategic target for attack or defence. And that's the basis for your large scale PVP element. With new 3D engines that allow full dynamic object interaction, I think it's safe to say that games like WoW, Everquest, AO etc. that use old featureless concepts are going to be replaced fairly soon.
Great post O.P.! I too would love an entirely skill based system. When one comes out I'll be all over it. Levels are getting a bit tired and I miss the days of UO and having a character who, with hard work, could be anything he or she wanted.
Originally posted by Badhawk Levels are the reason WoW failed to hold my attention for longer then 2 months...levels are the reason Anarchy Online bored me to death. Lineage 2 is another prime example of how levels completely ruined a game. As it stands now, MMORPGs are the most pointless genre of game out there. "Kill 5 monsters and get to level 10". What happens when you get to level 10? You kill 6 monsters to get to level 11. When you're level 11 you just kill a few more higher level monsters. Theres no point but to kill higher level monsters. Grinding is what makes MMORPGs the most boring, tedious games on the market. I don't know about you, but I play MMORPGs because of the MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER aspect. I play for player interaction, for opportunities to take part in massive battles, build cities together. I love the idea of thousands of real people just like me all in one world. What modern MMORPGs should be focusing on is a balanced skill based system, massive PvP battles, crafting system, a real economy, and PLAYER FREEDOM. When I log into a game, I want to go in and be able to find some raging war with hundreds of other players fighting over something that matters (land, cities, whatever). If I've been playing the game for 2 weeks, I still want to be able to compete against people who have been playing for 2 years. Not that I should be able to kill them easily, but I just hate the fact that in most MMORPGs, you have to grind for 6 months to get to any fun part of the game. I want to own my own city and raise an army of other players to help defend it. I want to open my humble little shop and sell stuff I made, and not have to worry about needing to finish some quest that a thousand people have done before me and a thousand people will do after me with absolutely no affect on the game but to reset the NPC so the next Elf Druid clone can do it. The problem with 99% of MMORPGs out there is that you are a clone if every other Dwarf Warrior or Elf Druid or Human Mage out there. All of you will most likely use the same type of armor (there is usually only a few types of "good" armor in most games), all of you will probably use the same weapons and cast the same spells, and probably look almost identical. It's time MMMORPGs move into the next generation where you are not a clone, and your actions actually matter in a game. When is this game coming out? If you know about a game I just described, PLEASE tell me. I'd like to know.
Levels are for NOOBS! Sorry for expressing myself like that but it's TRUE.
Levels makes it easy for the developers since then they can see how much strenght there is in each enemy or player and more easily balance the aspects of the game.
Levels also makes it easier for YOU as a player to engage in combat and so forth. Since Levels works as a noob's guide to "what I can and can't kill".
Levels restricts very much in MMORPG's and makes everything time sinks where you repeatably kill mobs for exp.
It's one thing to have Levels but what really bothers me is LEVEL DIFFERENCES. Which means automatic defence and attack against lower leveled people. That just makes it all so stupid. Not because they have chosen more armor or deadlier skills or weapons, but because the level is higher......
I would like to promote SWG pre-CU as the perfect sollution to removing STUPID level systems. Just add tons of different branches which you can advance in and by that modify the character as you want. Novice attacks mean the SAME towards anyone no matter the "levels" or time they have played the game (if the attack successfully hits that is).
DEATH TO LEVELS.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
To have level exist, does NOT mean you have to use the method of mindless, pointless, endless, boring GRINDING to get your level.
I don't mind even if it takes 20 years to reach max level, as long as the leveling process is FUN.
The problem here is 1. All current MMORPG basicly have mindless, pointless, endless, boring type of PvE. They basicly spawn mobs everywhere with around 20 sec. respawn time. You can sit on the same spot kill the same a few mobs over and over for hours, days, weeks, and nothing will ever change, they will keep coming back in a few seconds.
I call this is STUPID!
We need the PvE require real thinking. And screw with WOW too. Whoever said WOW has interesting quests are easily entertained. WOW's quests are same as grinding, with a cover of "quest".
2. In all current MMORPG, the level is TOO important. Aside level, gears, everyone only need very little combat experience to do well. Thus if a newbie who just joined the game for 1 week get a lvl 99 character with top gears, he can easily beat someone who had played for 5 years and now is on a lvl 1 character...in 1 hit.
level is too important in the MMORPG now. All the combat system are mostly just to select a target and auto attack with 1 push of a button, or spam a few buttons after select the target. There is not enough things to require real skills.
I'd much perfer if they can actually implant the fighting controlling system of some fighting games, for example - street fighter. Players should be able to control every single move of their character, thus how well their charactrers do is directly related to the players' controlling skills. Not just level.
I still say, level is necessary. Unless you want to play pvp 24/7 non stop every time between your log on and log out. There should be some sort of PvE, and yes I am interested in good PvE which is almost non exist in all MMORPG right now. Does not mean PvE suppose to be this way. They can change it. And I really think it is necessary for the people who can outsmart others have some other sort of advantage in combat. The leveling system imo should be based on lots of thinking, NOT simply determind by who spend more time on mindless hitting the same mobs over and over.
My conclusion -
level is necessary, and it should be obtained through very interesting thoughtful PvE instead of boring mindless grinding of who spend more time...
And how well players do in combat should be MORE relay on their controlling skills, which there is the need of implant a controlling system of make players control every single move of their character instead of select target and spam buttons.
I was just thinking that the boring grind and PvE is something that has to be there currently. I mean, multiplayer games are really only relatively recent so perhaps the video game community isn't quite ready for 100% player controlled worlds. I think we're moving into that area, but not yet.
I wouldn't say levels are a useless idea or that grinding is ever so useless, I just think that perhaps if they gave reasons for killing mobs other than just to complete quests and to gain experience.
Perhaps, a person could gain levels by participating in group PvP, perhaps quests could be PvP quests or a fraction of them could be PvP.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
examples of how players should control every move of their characters
If I want to slash your left leg, I control my character to do so. If you don't react, your left leg will be hit unless I really suck at controlling and missed. If I want to slash your right arm, and if you don't react, your right arm will be hit unless I really suck at controlling and missed a target that isn't moving.
If you don't want to be hit, you will move your shield of your own weapon to block my weapon. It is up to your controlling skill to do so. If you do it too slow, you will still be hit. If you moved your shield or weapon 1 inch missed my weapon, you will still be hit. You can try to dodge my attack too, by trying to move left or right, or backward. If you do it too late, even if 1 inch difference you will be hit. On the other hand, if you moved 1 inch away from my attacking weapon, I will miss.
As for archers, other ranged attacking fighters, or nukers who through fireball around for example, they should be using FPS controlling system in this case.
And if I shoot you with an arrow, IF my aim from my controlling is right, the arrow straight fly toward you, and if you don't react the arrow will hit you. If you want to block it with a shield, it is NOT simply push a button of "use shield block", but it is up to yourself which direction you move your shield to. If I aimed at your left leg, and you used shield to block your upon body, your leg will still be hit.
I hope everyone got my idea.
This combat system will be quite complex to be mastered, and not everyone will be able to do well. but then again if you can master it very well, you will own others with your controlling skills
I agree with you that levels are dated, but I'm not sure thats the root of the problem. Most class systems force you into a basic role with limited abilities. This becomes a dull grind with the level system because there is no or little variation to what you can do. You rinse wash and repeat killing monster after monster trying to achieve the highest level. When you hit top level, what else is there left to do? You can either do "end game" or roll a new toon. End game will most likely get repetitive and in rolling a new toon, you will do the same quests, or do the same grind that you did before.
A skill system, however if done correctly will not limit you to a class. You will be able to pick and choose which skills you wish to have. (I.E. A character heavily trained in swordsmanship, may want to pick up some sorcery.) A skill system will break the barrier that limits our imagination to class-clones that have all the same skills.
"Hawt lewt" should be taken out also. Player economies can thrive in a system where people make the items. Loot, is just another way to enhance your limited scope of a character to make you percieve that you are better. When in reality, everyone will have that same leet sword in about a month or two. Why not make it realistic and have players craft all the weapons instead of getting a sweet dagger off of a donkey? This would go a long way in supporting PvP loot due to the fact that you would only be losing something that you bought at a relatively low price and there would be minimal gain from the player on the oppisite end. And in a true skill system, if you wished, you could craft your own weapons back!
So when people say that levels are more like real life, it has a little truth, but it would only really relate to age. The example of some boxer being able to punch harder than a computer guy would be SKILL related, due to the fact that the boxer trained for a long time to gain that strength. The computer guy wouldn't be able to punch as hard due to the fact that he spent most of his time on the computer, increasing his computer/gaming skills instead of punching skills. If we were just limited to do one thing, life would get awful boring. If levels relate to real life, then when I hit the max level, I might as well retire from that game.
Oh look I'm level 60, look at me, look at my armor I'm so pwetty.
Lame.
I play Eve, got no exp grind, I'm only 1.5 months into the game and I'm flyin fleet battles on a daily basis with no end in sight. When I log I switch to long skill and go to sleep. When I wake up I switch to short skill and go join fleet again for more carnage. My character now is basically done, I have everything I really want, but theres always more to train, it never stops, it just keep takin longer and longer, 2 years from now I'll still be training and still be doing fleet combat.
I'm sure at some point my goals will change, I'll want to get into being a builder or something, when that happens I can train up some building and start my new career.
I don't mean to be a fanboy and harp on and on but I'm just in awe of Eve, in a couple months there will be some new content where faction loyalty will come into play, I'm a roleplayer, this gives roleplayers so many tools to make new enemies, have new reasons for battle, it's freakin awesome.
Oh and carebears, they are slowly expanding the NPC content, new mission types, its prolly not gonna be as rich PVE content as say WoW, but I guess each game have its own speciality and Eve's specialty is group pvp.
Nice resurrection of a very old thread. But it is still actuality.
I still hold to everything I said, however I don't care as much as I use to for anything that is not PvE solo/grouping, which is a central focus of interest rather than just a part of a bigger whole. I guess in time, you focus on a precise aspect.
This site is extremely PvP oriented, so it is no surprised that a lot of peoples seem to think that no levels are good, FFA and all that type of stuff...especially after a targeted resurrection, however the overwhelming majority want to PvE solo/group, and levels are doing the job fine. Active posters, especially on a PvP loving site, ain't very representative of the majority who don't bother to post on any forum.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
i agree with you but there should be levels just to see progress what skills are available to you and rank.... but it shouldn't determine the winner of a battle... it be cool for a skilled level 10 player to kill a sucky level 40 player.. althought more skills might be at his disposal.. anyways a waging war?? warhammer or HUXLEY 100v100 battles!!! i think warhammer is going to be another point and click...
Comments
@badhawk, the main problem with that game concept is that it only serves the hardcore roleplaying people. not the mainstream kiddies who enjoy killing things.
and if its not aimed at the mainstream crowd then it will not generate enough money to surive.
(im no expert on mmorpg business but thats how i view it)
btw: i agree, levels are boring.
I'm no "role player" myself. I dont go around playing elaborate characters or anything, but I think a small element of role play could only help a game 100%.
....and then you met www.darkandlight.net
Nuff said!
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
i feel that most MMORPG's these days are basically the same as the ones that are out, have been out, and historical ones. with minor differences being the only thing different.
this is why i look forward to DnL
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you''re one of the 2% who hasn''t, copy & paste this in your signature.
One of the main reasons I followed Wish so closely is that it promised a "flat leveling system". The game was actually skill based, but the idea is that no matter how good your skills are, the new players's can compete with you. So even if a person is maxed out, a massive group of complete newbies with simple swords can still defeat him. A big improvement over the typical leveling.
Badhawk, an interesting system. But I would prefer the skills to progress from use. But not much and over long periods of time, so that if you selected archery as one of your primary skills, the maximum you could ever get is twice the accuracy (you would never actually get there, but you would approach the limit as you practice the skill). Oh, and all skills can progress, just the ones you selected start pretty high. And, most importantly, attack depends only on your weapon and basic stats, which never progress (maybe allow str/dex to progress a little). The hp and defence of the character is fixed based on race/body type. And the difference between the power of uber vs. normal weapons is not big.
So, you see, everybody has their own spin on what they want their game to be.
But largely, I like your idea. Too bad that too many people want to have leveling in their games.
By the way, I first became annoyed with the progress of levels in Morrowind, a single player game, where mobs are leveled! In it, the skills progress, but they progress too fast/too far and with them your HP increases, making you the god of the game.
Nice post btw and I completely agree.
Levels are for NOOBS! Sorry for expressing myself like that but it's TRUE.
Levels makes it easy for the developers since then they can see how much strenght there is in each enemy or player and more easily balance the aspects of the game.
Levels also makes it easier for YOU as a player to engage in combat and so forth. Since Levels works as a noob's guide to "what I can and can't kill".
Levels restricts very much in MMORPG's and makes everything time sinks where you repeatably kill mobs for exp.
It's one thing to have Levels but what really bothers me is LEVEL DIFFERENCES. Which means automatic defence and attack against lower leveled people. That just makes it all so stupid. Not because they have chosen more armor or deadlier skills or weapons, but because the level is higher......
I would like to promote SWG pre-CU as the perfect sollution to removing STUPID level systems. Just add tons of different branches which you can advance in and by that modify the character as you want. Novice attacks mean the SAME towards anyone no matter the "levels" or time they have played the game (if the attack successfully hits that is).
DEATH TO LEVELS.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
I think people mixed up level with grinding.
To have level exist, does NOT mean you have to use the method of mindless, pointless, endless, boring GRINDING to get your level.
I don't mind even if it takes 20 years to reach max level, as long as the leveling process is FUN.
The problem here is
1. All current MMORPG basicly have mindless, pointless, endless, boring type of PvE. They basicly spawn mobs everywhere with around 20 sec. respawn time. You can sit on the same spot kill the same a few mobs over and over for hours, days, weeks, and nothing will ever change, they will keep coming back in a few seconds.
I call this is STUPID!
We need the PvE require real thinking. And screw with WOW too. Whoever said WOW has interesting quests are easily entertained. WOW's quests are same as grinding, with a cover of "quest".
2. In all current MMORPG, the level is TOO important. Aside level, gears, everyone only need very little combat experience to do well. Thus if a newbie who just joined the game for 1 week get a lvl 99 character with top gears, he can easily beat someone who had played for 5 years and now is on a lvl 1 character...in 1 hit.
level is too important in the MMORPG now. All the combat system are mostly just to select a target and auto attack with 1 push of a button, or spam a few buttons after select the target. There is not enough things to require real skills.
I'd much perfer if they can actually implant the fighting controlling system of some fighting games, for example - street fighter.
Players should be able to control every single move of their character, thus how well their charactrers do is directly related to the players' controlling skills. Not just level.
I still say, level is necessary. Unless you want to play pvp 24/7 non stop every time between your log on and log out. There should be some sort of PvE, and yes I am interested in good PvE which is almost non exist in all MMORPG right now. Does not mean PvE suppose to be this way. They can change it. And I really think it is necessary for the people who can outsmart others have some other sort of advantage in combat. The leveling system imo should be based on lots of thinking, NOT simply determind by who spend more time on mindless hitting the same mobs over and over.
My conclusion -
level is necessary, and it should be obtained through very interesting thoughtful PvE instead of boring mindless grinding of who spend more time...
And how well players do in combat should be MORE relay on their controlling skills, which there is the need of implant a controlling system of make players control every single move of their character instead of select target and spam buttons.
I was just thinking that the boring grind and PvE is something that has to be there currently. I mean, multiplayer games are really only relatively recent so perhaps the video game community isn't quite ready for 100% player controlled worlds. I think we're moving into that area, but not yet.
I wouldn't say levels are a useless idea or that grinding is ever so useless, I just think that perhaps if they gave reasons for killing mobs other than just to complete quests and to gain experience.
Perhaps, a person could gain levels by participating in group PvP, perhaps quests could be PvP quests or a fraction of them could be PvP.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
examples of how players should control every move of their characters
If I want to slash your left leg, I control my character to do so. If you don't react, your left leg will be hit unless I really suck at controlling and missed. If I want to slash your right arm, and if you don't react, your right arm will be hit unless I really suck at controlling and missed a target that isn't moving.
If you don't want to be hit, you will move your shield of your own weapon to block my weapon. It is up to your controlling skill to do so. If you do it too slow, you will still be hit. If you moved your shield or weapon 1 inch missed my weapon, you will still be hit. You can try to dodge my attack too, by trying to move left or right, or backward. If you do it too late, even if 1 inch difference you will be hit. On the other hand, if you moved 1 inch away from my attacking weapon, I will miss.
As for archers, other ranged attacking fighters, or nukers who through fireball around for example, they should be using FPS controlling system in this case.
And if I shoot you with an arrow, IF my aim from my controlling is right, the arrow straight fly toward you, and if you don't react the arrow will hit you. If you want to block it with a shield, it is NOT simply push a button of "use shield block", but it is up to yourself which direction you move your shield to. If I aimed at your left leg, and you used shield to block your upon body, your leg will still be hit.
I hope everyone got my idea.
This combat system will be quite complex to be mastered, and not everyone will be able to do well. but then again if you can master it very well, you will own others with your controlling skills
nice post O.P.
I agree with you that levels are dated, but I'm not sure thats the root of the problem. Most class systems force you into a basic role with limited abilities. This becomes a dull grind with the level system because there is no or little variation to what you can do. You rinse wash and repeat killing monster after monster trying to achieve the highest level. When you hit top level, what else is there left to do? You can either do "end game" or roll a new toon. End game will most likely get repetitive and in rolling a new toon, you will do the same quests, or do the same grind that you did before.
A skill system, however if done correctly will not limit you to a class. You will be able to pick and choose which skills you wish to have. (I.E. A character heavily trained in swordsmanship, may want to pick up some sorcery.) A skill system will break the barrier that limits our imagination to class-clones that have all the same skills.
"Hawt lewt" should be taken out also. Player economies can thrive in a system where people make the items. Loot, is just another way to enhance your limited scope of a character to make you percieve that you are better. When in reality, everyone will have that same leet sword in about a month or two. Why not make it realistic and have players craft all the weapons instead of getting a sweet dagger off of a donkey? This would go a long way in supporting PvP loot due to the fact that you would only be losing something that you bought at a relatively low price and there would be minimal gain from the player on the oppisite end. And in a true skill system, if you wished, you could craft your own weapons back!
So when people say that levels are more like real life, it has a little truth, but it would only really relate to age. The example of some boxer being able to punch harder than a computer guy would be SKILL related, due to the fact that the boxer trained for a long time to gain that strength. The computer guy wouldn't be able to punch as hard due to the fact that he spent most of his time on the computer, increasing his computer/gaming skills instead of punching skills. If we were just limited to do one thing, life would get awful boring. If levels relate to real life, then when I hit the max level, I might as well retire from that game.
Oh look I'm level 60, look at me, look at my armor I'm so pwetty.
Lame.
I play Eve, got no exp grind, I'm only 1.5 months into the game and I'm flyin fleet battles on a daily basis with no end in sight. When I log I switch to long skill and go to sleep. When I wake up I switch to short skill and go join fleet again for more carnage. My character now is basically done, I have everything I really want, but theres always more to train, it never stops, it just keep takin longer and longer, 2 years from now I'll still be training and still be doing fleet combat.
I'm sure at some point my goals will change, I'll want to get into being a builder or something, when that happens I can train up some building and start my new career.
I don't mean to be a fanboy and harp on and on but I'm just in awe of Eve, in a couple months there will be some new content where faction loyalty will come into play, I'm a roleplayer, this gives roleplayers so many tools to make new enemies, have new reasons for battle, it's freakin awesome.
Oh and carebears, they are slowly expanding the NPC content, new mission types, its prolly not gonna be as rich PVE content as say WoW, but I guess each game have its own speciality and Eve's specialty is group pvp.
Couldn't have said it any better.
We wont get a 2nd Gen game till we get out of this rut. Till then, almost every FAQ looks like this:
Level/Class system
Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes and (insert token race here)
Auto attack w/specials
Gear dependent
Endgame=Raiding
Controlled PvP/PvP server
So, what game is this? Most of them
Lord, I've played Everquest:Reloaded WAY too many times.
Nice resurrection of a very old thread.
But it is still actuality.
I still hold to everything I said, however I don't care as much as I use to for anything that is not PvE solo/grouping, which is a central focus of interest rather than just a part of a bigger whole. I guess in time, you focus on a precise aspect.
This site is extremely PvP oriented, so it is no surprised that a lot of peoples seem to think that no levels are good, FFA and all that type of stuff...especially after a targeted resurrection, however the overwhelming majority want to PvE solo/group, and levels are doing the job fine. Active posters, especially on a PvP loving site, ain't very representative of the majority who don't bother to post on any forum.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.