I said is in my thread before. The genre isn't dying. It's just that the mindset has changed and developers aren't changing with the new mindset.
the same music that was in the 80s and 90s isn't popular anymore in 2013 like it once was. Why? Because mindset of consumer changed. What's so hard to understand about that?
Agree with this 100%. Themeparks had their time, and for some people they still do, but apparently there's only so much you can do with developer created content. It's time to move back into models where the PLAYERS not only create content, but they ARE the content as well. If I was starting a new game today, I would get a focus group together of both kinds of players and look towards games like Star Wars Galaxies for some inspiration.
SWG was problematic in a lot of ways, but the player created emergent gameplay aspect of if was the one part that worked well, and people loved it. It could be vastly improved upon today as a game model, and include some great developer made content as well. You could end up with an amazing hybrid game that brings the best of both worlds.
Look, I know a lot of people don't want a pure sandbox. Hell, I don't really either. What I want is a great hybrid that gives me a great world to do my own thing in (combat, non-combat, exploration, crafting, social, etc), along with lore and story content I can access *when I feel like it*. I do want such a game to lean more in the direction of emergent gameplay than I do themepark though.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I mean I haven't liked a single one since 2005 and have been looking in the genre ever since. My point is however that the MMORPG genre has evolved into this WoW clone genre, where you make a character, log in, speak to an npc to kill 10 rats, do this until you're high enough level to get to the next zone, to repeat it all again. You then end up doing this until you get to the end game which is made up of standing around wondering what to do because you're bored of Battlegrounds and bored of instances.
I got into the genre back in the day because I wanted virtual worlds, games back then offered this and they were all massively different from each other as the genre was in it's infancy and we didn't have many worlds. Now however MMORPG just means a game like WoW and I know EQ fanbois will be complaining, however they aren't true EQ fans. I mean I'm sick of these people who pop up and say WoW is an EQ clone........ sorry but play EQ from 2000 and play WoW from 2004, they were massivel different games, that is why EQ people hated it.
The MMO genre was also one that amazed graphically as well as scale wise. I mean the genre has this weird perception now where it's always looked bad and never been immersive and now every MMO is some cartoony thing... again thanx to WoW. I remember pre WoW where I was thinking the graphics are amazing for what it was doing. I remember playing EQ in Upper School and my parents saying how good looking it was and I remember games like EQ2 and SWG blowing everyones minds. I mean even Planetside looked good back in 2003, I was blown away with many things in that game. The genre has seemed to given in though to the current gen consoles and never truely entered the DX9 era and just seemed to have stuck with WoW graphics.
After playing Dayz I realised it isn't me, it's the games and how when a game creates an amazing world with challenge, not only do I jump on it, but so do 1.6 million other gamers. I realised that the MMORPG genre that I used to love was basically a genre for emergent gaming, a sandbox one where we create the story and one where we have control.
I reminded myself, I love SIm City, I love The SIms, I love EVE Online, I love Dayz, ArmA and every other game in this style. My Fave MMOS were EQ Pre Luclin/PoP, EVE, PoP and SWG Pre CU. My fave games are the Dayz or the GTAs or the Euro Truck Simulators lol. Ones that are for the hardcore, ones that don't treat the gamer as dumb, ones that you create the story and give you control.
There is nothing more boring to me than doing a kill 10 rats quest for some NPC who gives me some shit 3 line dialogue of story for why I'm doing it over and over again. Even games like SWTOR or GW2 where people claimed they were different, I ended up doing the same thing over and over.
So I realise, this genre is dead and the games I strive for aren't part of it.
My experience in the pencil paper game are pretty similar to what I have seen in the game version of MMORPGs. Its kinda the foundation that all RPG games use to expect something different is rather odd. I would agree the genre isn't for you and probably was never geared for you or ever will be.
I think everyone is over thinking why they dont like mmorpgs, it is very simple. The Answer... Eat a hotdog, eat a hotdog, eat a hotdog,eat another hotdog,,,,, I think it is time for a hamburger.
I think the biggest issues with MMO's are the types of people they attract. MMO fans are the worst. We live to jump on the forums and shit on game after game making sure that the current game WE like is the "best". And anyone with a different opinion gets shit on. I think its getting to a point where we're so jaded that we don't WANT to like a game.. I think most of us actually look for things wrong just so we can bitch about it and talk about the good ol' days. I'm sick of it.. which is why I chose to dail it down.. pick a game and just invest.
I finally gave up my search for the "perfect" MMO and just decided to have fun. Just invest in a game and take my time with it exploring the world and getting into the lore. For this, I picked eq2 to settle down with due to the shear amount of content. I'm having the most fun I had in years. Moving at a slower pace, crafting, questing (and actually reading them lol). With the new mercenary system, I can even run shit when some friends aren't availabe. I do prefer to play with others, but it's cool to have an option when I can't sleep and log on at 4am lol.
I think if people lower their defenses and just try to appreciate shit for what it is.. things may get better. It's like watching a movie about super heros. Don't pick it apart like the nerds we are.. just enjoy it for what it is. Ya know?
It worked for me and I'm actually having fun again. I hope you all find that fun in MMO's again..
I don't think the genre is dead, its just stale. The idea of a large game world with millions of little nerdlets running around pretending to be things is still a promising and fruitfull premise. Its just that almost every big budget venture into this concept has been done in the safest tried and true measure that we feel as if we're being led by the hand through the same amusement park that's just been recently repainted.
It takes me all of a day now to figure out if I can spend months let alone years on a game.
MMO gods....you have to realize that the cash cow is running out. People are catching on homedawgs. Its time to use your imaginations again.
BTW Planetside 2 is still awesome ^^, but then again its not your typical MMO. Although I can't play it all day like I used to with some MMOs its not necessarily designed to be lived in. Only to be WAAAAGHed in.
I think the biggest issues with MMO's are the types of people they attract. MMO fans are the worst. We live to jump on the forums and shit on game after game making sure that the current game WE like is the "best". And anyone with a different opinion gets shit on. I think its getting to a point where we're so jaded that we don't WANT to like a game.. I think most of us actually look for things wrong just so we can bitch about it and talk about the good ol' days. I'm sick of it.. which is why I chose to dail it down.. pick a game and just invest.
I finally gave up my search for the "perfect" MMO and just decided to have fun. Just invest in a game and take my time with it exploring the world and getting into the lore. For this, I picked eq2 to settle down with due to the shear amount of content. I'm having the most fun I had in years. Moving at a slower pace, crafting, questing (and actually reading them lol). With the new mercenary system, I can even run shit when some friends aren't availabe. I do prefer to play with others, but it's cool to have an option when I can't sleep and log on at 4am lol.
I think if people lower their defenses and just try to appreciate shit for what it is.. things may get better. It's like watching a movie about super heros. Don't pick it apart like the nerds we are.. just enjoy it for what it is. Ya know?
It worked for me and I'm actually having fun again. I hope you all find that fun in MMO's again..
While this is true of some people around here, it's a pretty limited view of the problem. People complain when they are frustrated and few people are very good at voicing their frustrations, or even pin-pointing what it is about these recent MMOs that bothers them.
Just look at the uptick of comments that sound something like "I'm bored", "this game is boring", "is this all there is to the game?", "where is everyone in the game", etc. More and more players are tired of the stale status quo in these games, and they latch onto whatever the next game is because they hope it will be "the one". If it's a themepark game, it likely won't be "the one" for an increasing number of people.
My common disclaimer: Some people are prefectly happy with themeparks, especially if they are relatively new to the genre and/or haven't ever played a deeper MMO game from the old days. There is a large market for themeparks, for now, but this trend toward people wanting more out of an MMO is going to increase. The game developers are way behind the trend, IMO. If you are a game developer, and you are currently building a brand new themepark... good luck with that.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I've started back in the days with AO followed by DAoC and Neocron before I entered EvE Online in 2005. Since then I've tried out tons of other MMOs but I've allways gone back to EvE Online. After playing allmost seven years of EvE Online I'm left with no MMO really interesting, as no MMO offers the freedom or the possibilities EvE offers.
But it's not just MMOs. Even the singleplayer games of today are crap and the only games I play currently are racers or other sportstitles, but these are best played on a console, allthough the graphics are not as good as on PC.
ArcheAge is currently the only game that peaks my interest and World of Darkness is too far away, so I may actually trash my gaming-PC and get a MacBook Pro instead and only keep playing some sports or racing on the console.
I said is in my thread before. The genre isn't dying. It's just that the mindset has changed and developers aren't changing with the new mindset.
the same music that was in the 80s and 90s isn't popular anymore in 2013 like it once was. Why? Because mindset of consumer changed. What's so hard to understand about that?
No, developers *ARE* changing with the new mindset. The problem is, the old-timers aren't changing, they're stubornly clinging to the old ways that just aren't workable in the modern world. MMOs, like every other genre, are changing to what the majority of paying customers playing that genre want them to be.
MMOs no longer represent a style of game I want to play. They are dead to me.
Then by all means, go play something else. Move on. That's what healthy people do. However, there's a vocal group of people who hate everything that modern MMOs are, yet continue to stick around and whine about how much they hate them. Get a different hobby! Go find something you actually enjoy doing!
Not sure why this is so difficult for some people.
Modern MMOs didn't improve on old ones. They aren't the same kind of game. If someone came out with an old style MMO with a graphical update and an improvement to the things that made MMOs great it would be popular. Maybe not WoW popular, but then RIFT and SWTOR weren't WoW popular either.
That's an assertion, you have no way of knowing if it's true. I suspect that if they released UO with all the old-school elements and modern graphics and controls, it would fail miserably. It can't compete with modern day games, the majority of people who play MMOs today are simply not interested in those kinds of games. It might develop a small following but would probably go F2P after six months, just like so many other games do today.
I said is in my thread before. The genre isn't dying. It's just that the mindset has changed and developers aren't changing with the new mindset.
the same music that was in the 80s and 90s isn't popular anymore in 2013 like it once was. Why? Because mindset of consumer changed. What's so hard to understand about that?
No, developers *ARE* changing with the new mindset. The problem is, the old-timers aren't changing, they're stubornly clinging to the old ways that just aren't workable in the modern world. MMOs, like every other genre, are changing to what the majority of paying customers playing that genre want them to be.
"Old timers"? I know this has been said a lot here, but simply following what the majority of players are playing today is a sure way to make sure your product fails. Why? Because in order to stay relevant in the future, companies need to be looking forward far beyond what their rabid fans are happy about today. Failure do so will mean one day their product will be abondoned and left for dead, as the masses move on to the next shiny thing that catches their eye.
There's something to be said about listening to the educated and vocal minority. Not the people who complain just to complain, but the players who may know more about the MMO industry as whole because they have a much wider exposure to it than someone who just makes and sells MMO games and drinks their own corporate cool-aid. How many themeparks have become niche games on life-support in recent years? How many have been shut down completely at a fairly young age?
The other thing you fail to notice is that there is plenty of room for different kinds of players. Some people like the hand-held, force fed story and progression of developer made themepark content. Others, like me, prefer to forge our own advanture through a game world, occasionally dabbling in developer made content for fun. Trying to lump people into black and white mindsets like "majority" and "old timers" is a painfully shallow view of the situation.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
OP, it's hard to like anything if all you think of any game is "just another WoW clone"
Try going in positive. Maybe WoW and some of the other themepark type MMOs aren't as bad as you envision. Nobody is going to make the perfect game that you dream about. So either alter your tastes or move on.
No, they're pretty awful. Like, mental abortion game design wise.
Nobody is asking for a perfect MMO, just a decent one.
Man, telling someone to alter their tastes... these kinds of apologists need to go.
OP, it's hard to like anything if all you think of any game is "just another WoW clone"
Try going in positive. Maybe WoW and some of the other themepark type MMOs aren't as bad as you envision. Nobody is going to make the perfect game that you dream about. So either alter your tastes or move on.
No, they're pretty awful. Like, mental abortion game design wise.
Nobody is asking for a perfect MMO, just a decent one.
Man, telling someone to alter their tastes... these kinds of apologists need to go.
Then by all means, continue to complain and dream of your decent game. Just be aware that the majority of players aren't as miserable as the old vets. Some people actually enjoy the current crop of MMOs. Some people never played UO or SWG...in fact MOST haven't, so they are not aware that their current MMOs are souless treadmill garbage games that are just cash grabs from greedy lazy developers.
OP, it's hard to like anything if all you think of any game is "just another WoW clone"
Try going in positive. Maybe WoW and some of the other themepark type MMOs aren't as bad as you envision. Nobody is going to make the perfect game that you dream about. So either alter your tastes or move on.
No, they're pretty awful. Like, mental abortion game design wise.
Nobody is asking for a perfect MMO, just a decent one.
Man, telling someone to alter their tastes... these kinds of apologists need to go.
Then by all means, continue to complain and dream of your decent game. Just be aware that the majority of players aren't as miserable as the old vets. Some people actually enjoy the current crop of MMOs. Some people never played UO or SWG...in fact MOST haven't, so they are not aware that their current MMOs are souless treadmill garbage games that are just cash grabs from greedy lazy developers.
or theres people like me who played AC, UO, EQ1, meridian, SWG and still find enjoyment from some of the current crop MMOs
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
OP, it's hard to like anything if all you think of any game is "just another WoW clone"
Try going in positive. Maybe WoW and some of the other themepark type MMOs aren't as bad as you envision. Nobody is going to make the perfect game that you dream about. So either alter your tastes or move on.
No, they're pretty awful. Like, mental abortion game design wise.
Nobody is asking for a perfect MMO, just a decent one.
Man, telling someone to alter their tastes... these kinds of apologists need to go.
Then by all means, continue to complain and dream of your decent game. Just be aware that the majority of players aren't as miserable as the old vets. Some people actually enjoy the current crop of MMOs. Some people never played UO or SWG...in fact MOST haven't, so they are not aware that their current MMOs are souless treadmill garbage games that are just cash grabs from greedy lazy developers.
The point is that more and more people are figuring this out and asking for more. There is a trend in the direction of people wanting more out of these games than just themepark content. I've watched it grow daily for the past few years and the posts of people complaining about being bored in *all* of the themeparks are steadily increasing. And no, it's not just the same people posting.
Game developers can pretend they are safe because so many people don't know better today, but we all know here that most of these new themeparks basically fail, especially from their larger business goals. Most of them become niche games with far fewer players than they planned on, and server merges galore.
Look at WoW. Why do so many people still play it? Because why not? The most you will get from the other themeparks is better graphics and same-old gameplay. What's the motivator to change when these games *play* basically the same?
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I certainly don't like the evolution right now. Way to action and combat oriented.
Read: E-Sports Boom..
MMORPG's went from being games about living in a virtual world to arenas dedicated to "professional" hopefuls who would much rather place numbers over your head in relation to how bad they can beat you at any given time...
So in order to better fit that competitive model, the game has to be strongly based around combat and if it is strongly based around that, it has to be involving enough to keep people entertained or "fun".. Just like common action games such as God of War and Darksiders etc which involve you slaying thousands of enemies throughout the game, if killing them wasn't particularly fun then no one would do it.
The industry has been out of Worlds for so long that it is a lost art to developing giants today, they simply don't know how to do it anymore. Hell I am still AMAZED that Rift had a day/night cycle.. That is one of the smallest things developers can do to increase immersion yet neglect.. Even when WoW came out it actually had SEASONS where the leaves would turn colors and scenery would change accordingly, it was still pretty much a WORLD..
Things have gone progressively worst and I truly think SWTOR was the complete downfall to the trend. Millions of dollars put into a game depicting a UNIVERSE of lore, only to get a streamlined movie of more or less 2% of it all. You really made no choices and the world was completely static.. COMPLETELY.. Absolute fail..
I hear you OP. I found this post I made in 2004 or so, regarding Brads new game at the time, called Vanguard. It was made during beta on the sigil forums. I posted it to the server forums I ran for Antonius Bayle during Everquest1 2003-2004. It pretty much described how my first mmo experience felt like, and probably also explains why no other mmo ever felt the same again.
LONG POST AHEAD:
This was written by Geln a member of the SGO forums. Links provided in the post above. -no its not, Its been 10 years and I lost the link -
Quote:
I was reading another thread and finally realized what it was that I most looked forward to in a new MMOG. I want to be as excited about the uknown of a totally new world as I was when I first played EQ. But, since I have that experience behind me and have learned a bit from playing for 4 years now, it's going to take an awful lot of trust in the developers for me to expect that kind of feeling again.
When I first started EQ, a good part of my excitement came out of my own imagination of what was possible. Some things did come out of it all that really surprised me, but to be honest, a lot of the potential I saw exploring the new world ended up as wasted. Now I've got a certain set of perceptions about what is done with a MMOG world and game mechanics and the assumptions I make as I explore any new world will be based on that. As long as the limits of the new world fit within the limits I've assumed for these types of games, then that excitement of the unknown is gone.
Let me give a few examples to illustrate.
Quoted from Aradune from another thread...
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But what if travelling was fun? What if it wasn't tedious? What if an MMOG could have distant exotic lands where it meant something to have made the journey, ... where you occasionally saw someone of a race or garbed in certain clothing that was totally alien to the environment you were accustomed to? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reading this made me think of my early EQ days. I had two other friends as excited as I was about the upcoming release of EQ. For a couple weeks before release, we read all the press releases and articles we could find on it and got together and made plans on what characters we'd create and the adventures we'd all go on together. Then the game hit the shelves.
One friend wanted a powerful wizard. He created an erudite. Another friend was drawn to the dark arts and wanted to roleplay a cynical curmudgeon (much like his real life personality ). He started a dark elf necromancer and role-played him to the hilt. I was overcome with the possibilities right up until I read the game manual and learned that bards would be the "ultimate" addition to any party. So I started a wood elf.
Over the next week, we played and got to know the world just a bit and spoke together in real life about plans to get together for adventure. The only problem, as it turned out, was that it would've been harder to pick three starting points more separated by geography. Two of us were on opposite sides of the game world and the third, considered "evil" by those that didn't appreciate his dark cynicism, couldn't even attempt to travel in either direction at least until he got an invisibility spell at the hopelessly unreachable level 8.
Well, somehow it got left up to me to find them. I guess I volunteered for it because I wanted to see the parts of the world they kept talking about. Meanwhile, they had heard me talk about Kelethin so they both created wood elf characters, started exploring the city, fell off the tree platforms and died, then promptly deleted those characters and declared they'd never return.
Soon I made level 5. I hunted for a few more days after that and was finally able to afford my level 5 song, Selo's Accelerando. Singing that and banging a drum, I felt invincible, so I set out to travel the world. First I would pick up my friend outside of Neriak and then together we would run to Odus. We figured it would take us two nights of play.
Well, the first night was spent getting lost in Greater Faydark. I know a lot of people had gripes about getting lost, but I loved it. I had no idea the zone was square shaped, so I stayed away from the "walls." I knew the paths sometimes led to other cities (another friend had taken her high elf paladin all the way from Felwithe up to join me in fighting the orcs of Crushbone, but she forgot which turns she'd taken on the path), but I also knew that some just ended in orc camps, so I didn't want to use them either. I just stood in one place and hammered Sense Heading until I finally was pretty sure what direction I was facing, then headed West, where the port city of Butcherblock was rumored to be.
Due to the uncontrollable orc population, I died a few times. Then when I found Butcherblock, I died again. Somewhere around there I decided following paths was for the best and I ended up in Dagnor's Cauldron. Someone else in the zone answered my shouted queries and said that it was no place for anyone below level 20 so I quickly zoned out before anything ate me.
I eventually found my way to the docks and waited for the boat. I wasn't bored because the whole time was spent shouting for information on when the last boat had come by and how long it would take after that for the next. Of course, no one knew, but there was a lot of fun to be had speculating. Perhaps the boats were on a regular schedule, but what if pirates had attacked it mid-route and sunken the ship - or even stolen it? Someone shouted that there were worse things in the Ocean of Tears than pirates and that the dragon there could swallow the boat whole.
By the time the boat did dock, I wasn't sure I was ready to board it anyway. But I did. Before the boat had even left the dock, I had explored it completely. And no, I didn't fall off. I've never accidentally fallen off a boat, ever. Why? Well, I grew up in Kelethin and learned to walk carefully.
The boat zoned into OOT and I was on my way.
This post is getting awfully long, but I hope the point is pretty apparent from what I've already written. The adventure for me was in the unknown. It was still possible in my mind that anything could happen.
I didn't worry about the impossible game mechanics of a dragon that would swallow the boat whole. If I imagined it possible, surely the game developers had imagined it as well and I'd better be careful.
I actually walked around tree stumps in GFay clicking on them hoping they would zone me into a magical dryad zone.
When I got lost, I shouted for help in finding landmarks because I didn't realize all trees had to be the same to cut down on zone lag.
I wondered at who had made the paths through the forest and across the lands and tried to determine from the number of zigzags whether they had been good or evil and if that would indicate to me what lie ahead. Of course, I realized this was silly. Only a ranger would have the skill to know that.
I thought the orcs would invade Kelethin some day soon if I and my friends didn't kill a certain number of them every day. I knew it was important to kill the centurions before the pawns or they would shout orders out that the others would obey and outmaneuver us. Every time a pawn died shouting to the centurions to save him I hid.
I thought Dagnor's Cauldron would be a bubbling acidic lake governed by the great and powerful sorceror Dagnor who would pluck unwary adventurers from the chasm floor and use them for demonic magical experiments.
I spent half my boat travel clicking on the "bar" in the belly of the boat knowing that there had to be some way to order a drink or it wouldn't be there and the other half of the time cowering against the far side of the ship and hiding behind the mast so Gornit wouldn't see me and attack the ship.
I believed the rumors that the griffons in the Commonlands were over level 50 and each controlled by a GM. I looked for graveyards so I could return the bone chips I'd looted to their rightful burial spot and finally lay the undead souls to rest.
I still remember the day I stood in Kelethin and marvelled at the gnome in front of me. Surely he was a great warrior for having made such a journey all the way to my city. And surely he was rich beyond belief as he owned a full suit of real leather armor. I remember gang-rushing into Crushbone with 40+ people in vain hopes of taking down the vile guardian of the zone, the dreaded and undefeatable Ambassador D'Vinn. I remember saving up money to buy a sharpening stone so that I could begin to care for my rusty rapier (What respectable bard would be caught dead with so inelegant a weapon as a shortsword?) and turn it into an "uber" tarnished weapon, then being afraid to put them into a forge because I wouldn't be able to go on if I lost my weapon in the process.
The wonder of all of this was in the not knowing the possibilities and also in the trust of the developers that they could do anything they or I imagined. It was in this unlimited possibility that the adventure was found and the game was more than a game, but a new life. Since then, I've come to learn a lot about what can and can't be done within the EQ game mechanics. I've gotted to know the rules of spawn times and loot pools and tiled textures and repeatable quests, etc. The game is still fun for me, but it's only a game. The numbers are important these days. The imagination, unfortunately, isn't.
I enjoy playing EQ. But I remember how much fun it was when no one knew the answers or even the questions. I remember that even though there were those that had advantages of play time, lucky drops or even previous mud experience, we were still all pretty much on even footing because no one knew the extents of this new world. Those that had found something out about the world, or had leveled beyond us, killed something most of us ran from, or wielded a legendary item like the dragoon dirk were respected for their ability and sought for their advice. And it was freely given.
Even the upper tier of level 15s (rumors were that someone had hit level 20, but few believed it) were willing to help out brand new characters because we all survived that way - in a spirit of cooperation. The world was too big and too scary not to.
There was no competition for kills because no one knew the loot tables. If someone ran up and killed your orc, you thanked them for helping you rid your forest of the evil and moved on to the next kill. There were always enough around for experience. KS didn't mean a thing. Camping meant you were logging off. Buff meant a single spell from someone in your group. No one said LFG because all you had to do was stand in a crowded area and someone would join up with you. Drops went to the class that could use them. If no one in the group needed an item dropped, then a shout went out to the whole zone.
As I've said, I still enjoy EQ, but it's not the same. Please, Sigil, give me that old feeling of mystery and possibility. And please try to make it last as long as you can.
If you made it this far, I hope you understand why I kept this post for all these years. It perfectly described how it felt when an MMO was unbound by preconceptions and the player had yet to understand the underlaying mechanics of the game. When the idea of "builds" "min/maxing" or any kind of math behind the game was completely unimaginable. When every choice had consequences and you got sweatty palms whenever a new situation came along because actions had consequences. When classes were really different. When you NEEDED a cleric because only they could help you recover some exp, when you NEEDED a necromancer because only they could get your corpse out of a dungeon, when you NEEDED a wizard because travelling took time and was dangerous without them. - When classes was distinguished by real and powerfull differences, that each held importance to everyone else too. When game developers were not afraid of making us interact with eachother exactly because we needed those various differences to get through our gameplay, when it was alright, great even to have to contact a stranger for a buff or aid, and make friends that way in the process. And when no instances excisted, which meant that everyone needed to co-exist with eachother to play the game.
"I enjoy playing EQ. But I remember how much fun it was when no one knew the answers or even the questions."
That's the key imo with enough space and size for there to be many questions and even more answers.
OP, it's hard to like anything if all you think of any game is "just another WoW clone"
Try going in positive. Maybe WoW and some of the other themepark type MMOs aren't as bad as you envision. Nobody is going to make the perfect game that you dream about. So either alter your tastes or move on.
No, they're pretty awful. Like, mental abortion game design wise.
Nobody is asking for a perfect MMO, just a decent one.
Man, telling someone to alter their tastes... these kinds of apologists need to go.
Then by all means, continue to complain and dream of your decent game. Just be aware that the majority of players aren't as miserable as the old vets. Some people actually enjoy the current crop of MMOs. Some people never played UO or SWG...in fact MOST haven't, so they are not aware that their current MMOs are souless treadmill garbage games that are just cash grabs from greedy lazy developers.
"It's up to every individual to determine how much truth they can stand."
The new generation of MMO's has been spawned by the generation of instant gratification. Kids who grew up with smartphones and constantly being told they are special and cannot fail. A generation of people who got trophies weather they won or lost. It's this generation that is programming now. They are catering to their own generation of instant gratification peers. They don't want to work to an end, they want to jump in and be all powerful from the get go. And that mindset and upbringing, in my opinion, is hurting, or changing rather, the landscape of the entire MMO industry.
So there you go, there's my theory if you don't like it..
The new generation of MMO's has been spawned by the generation of instant gratification. Kids who grew up with smartphones and constantly being told they are special and cannot fail. A generation of people who got trophies weather they won or lost. It's this generation that is programming now. They are catering to their own generation of instant gratification peers. They don't want to work to an end, they want to jump in and be all powerful from the get go. And that mindset and upbringing, in my opinion, is hurting, or changing rather, the landscape of the entire MMO industry.
So there you go, there's my theory if you don't like it..
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Um no. That doesn't even make sense. This generation of games was spawned due to complaints by players of old generations of games and the devs that make todays games, played the old games.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The new generation of MMO's has been spawned by the generation of instant gratification. Kids who grew up with smartphones and constantly being told they are special and cannot fail. A generation of people who got trophies weather they won or lost. It's this generation that is programming now. They are catering to their own generation of instant gratification peers. They don't want to work to an end, they want to jump in and be all powerful from the get go. And that mindset and upbringing, in my opinion, is hurting, or changing rather, the landscape of the entire MMO industry.
So there you go, there's my theory if you don't like it..
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Um no. That doesn't even make sense. This generation of games was spawned due to complaints by players of old generations of games and the devs that make todays games, played the old games.
Have to agree here.. Most of the old school players from the EQ days always start a sentence about how they are married with 4 kids and a full time job with religious responsibilities throughout the week and cannot dedicate the time they did back in the EQ , UO days to playing.. So ultimately they actually prefer the new generation and it's "instant gratification" solo style mechanics..
The new generation of MMO's has been spawned by the generation of instant gratification. Kids who grew up with smartphones and constantly being told they are special and cannot fail. A generation of people who got trophies weather they won or lost. It's this generation that is programming now. They are catering to their own generation of instant gratification peers. They don't want to work to an end, they want to jump in and be all powerful from the get go. And that mindset and upbringing, in my opinion, is hurting, or changing rather, the landscape of the entire MMO industry.
So there you go, there's my theory if you don't like it..
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Um no. That doesn't even make sense. This generation of games was spawned due to complaints by players of old generations of games and the devs that make todays games, played the old games.
that makes perfect sense. just like your statement makes perfect sense. just like developers using free to play as an excuse to make crappy games and line their pockets with quick cash makes perfect sense..
The new generation of MMO's has been spawned by the generation of instant gratification. Kids who grew up with smartphones and constantly being told they are special and cannot fail. A generation of people who got trophies weather they won or lost. It's this generation that is programming now. They are catering to their own generation of instant gratification peers. They don't want to work to an end, they want to jump in and be all powerful from the get go. And that mindset and upbringing, in my opinion, is hurting, or changing rather, the landscape of the entire MMO industry.
So there you go, there's my theory if you don't like it..
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Most people who "grew up" with smart phones as "kids" are about 16-20 years old right now. They probably aren't programming anything professionally, yet, and they are most definitely not making game design decisions.
Cliff Bleszinksi (he helped create Gears of War) had this to say recently, "Those companies that put these products out? They’re for profit businesses. They exist to produce, market, and ship great games ultimately for one purpose. First, for money, then, for acclaim."
It's that last part that catches my eye. "First, for money..". And that's why we see so many WoW clones, simple themeparks, free to play with microtransactions forced down your throat. Developers have lost their way, they're not about making games anymore, not about creating something amazing or what they dreamed up one lazy afternoon, they're just looking at making money. The business has changed from creating games that make money, to making money by creating games.
Until developers go back to thinking up great games instead of looking at business models and market research, we're not going to see anything but a clone of the previous game that did well. It's why we have so many shooters that play like Call of Duty, or so many MMO's that are just like WoW. It's all just a big cash in.
Big business has crushed creativity, all we get now is what we payed for the last time.
Comments
Agree with this 100%. Themeparks had their time, and for some people they still do, but apparently there's only so much you can do with developer created content. It's time to move back into models where the PLAYERS not only create content, but they ARE the content as well. If I was starting a new game today, I would get a focus group together of both kinds of players and look towards games like Star Wars Galaxies for some inspiration.
SWG was problematic in a lot of ways, but the player created emergent gameplay aspect of if was the one part that worked well, and people loved it. It could be vastly improved upon today as a game model, and include some great developer made content as well. You could end up with an amazing hybrid game that brings the best of both worlds.
Look, I know a lot of people don't want a pure sandbox. Hell, I don't really either. What I want is a great hybrid that gives me a great world to do my own thing in (combat, non-combat, exploration, crafting, social, etc), along with lore and story content I can access *when I feel like it*. I do want such a game to lean more in the direction of emergent gameplay than I do themepark though.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
My experience in the pencil paper game are pretty similar to what I have seen in the game version of MMORPGs. Its kinda the foundation that all RPG games use to expect something different is rather odd. I would agree the genre isn't for you and probably was never geared for you or ever will be.
I think the biggest issues with MMO's are the types of people they attract. MMO fans are the worst. We live to jump on the forums and shit on game after game making sure that the current game WE like is the "best". And anyone with a different opinion gets shit on. I think its getting to a point where we're so jaded that we don't WANT to like a game.. I think most of us actually look for things wrong just so we can bitch about it and talk about the good ol' days. I'm sick of it.. which is why I chose to dail it down.. pick a game and just invest.
I finally gave up my search for the "perfect" MMO and just decided to have fun. Just invest in a game and take my time with it exploring the world and getting into the lore. For this, I picked eq2 to settle down with due to the shear amount of content. I'm having the most fun I had in years. Moving at a slower pace, crafting, questing (and actually reading them lol). With the new mercenary system, I can even run shit when some friends aren't availabe. I do prefer to play with others, but it's cool to have an option when I can't sleep and log on at 4am lol.
I think if people lower their defenses and just try to appreciate shit for what it is.. things may get better. It's like watching a movie about super heros. Don't pick it apart like the nerds we are.. just enjoy it for what it is. Ya know?
It worked for me and I'm actually having fun again. I hope you all find that fun in MMO's again..
I don't think the genre is dead, its just stale. The idea of a large game world with millions of little nerdlets running around pretending to be things is still a promising and fruitfull premise. Its just that almost every big budget venture into this concept has been done in the safest tried and true measure that we feel as if we're being led by the hand through the same amusement park that's just been recently repainted.
It takes me all of a day now to figure out if I can spend months let alone years on a game.
MMO gods....you have to realize that the cash cow is running out. People are catching on homedawgs. Its time to use your imaginations again.
BTW Planetside 2 is still awesome ^^, but then again its not your typical MMO. Although I can't play it all day like I used to with some MMOs its not necessarily designed to be lived in. Only to be WAAAAGHed in.
While this is true of some people around here, it's a pretty limited view of the problem. People complain when they are frustrated and few people are very good at voicing their frustrations, or even pin-pointing what it is about these recent MMOs that bothers them.
Just look at the uptick of comments that sound something like "I'm bored", "this game is boring", "is this all there is to the game?", "where is everyone in the game", etc. More and more players are tired of the stale status quo in these games, and they latch onto whatever the next game is because they hope it will be "the one". If it's a themepark game, it likely won't be "the one" for an increasing number of people.
My common disclaimer: Some people are prefectly happy with themeparks, especially if they are relatively new to the genre and/or haven't ever played a deeper MMO game from the old days. There is a large market for themeparks, for now, but this trend toward people wanting more out of an MMO is going to increase. The game developers are way behind the trend, IMO. If you are a game developer, and you are currently building a brand new themepark... good luck with that.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I'm pretty much on the same boat here really.
I've started back in the days with AO followed by DAoC and Neocron before I entered EvE Online in 2005. Since then I've tried out tons of other MMOs but I've allways gone back to EvE Online. After playing allmost seven years of EvE Online I'm left with no MMO really interesting, as no MMO offers the freedom or the possibilities EvE offers.
But it's not just MMOs. Even the singleplayer games of today are crap and the only games I play currently are racers or other sportstitles, but these are best played on a console, allthough the graphics are not as good as on PC.
ArcheAge is currently the only game that peaks my interest and World of Darkness is too far away, so I may actually trash my gaming-PC and get a MacBook Pro instead and only keep playing some sports or racing on the console.
No, developers *ARE* changing with the new mindset. The problem is, the old-timers aren't changing, they're stubornly clinging to the old ways that just aren't workable in the modern world. MMOs, like every other genre, are changing to what the majority of paying customers playing that genre want them to be.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Then by all means, go play something else. Move on. That's what healthy people do. However, there's a vocal group of people who hate everything that modern MMOs are, yet continue to stick around and whine about how much they hate them. Get a different hobby! Go find something you actually enjoy doing!
Not sure why this is so difficult for some people.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
That's an assertion, you have no way of knowing if it's true. I suspect that if they released UO with all the old-school elements and modern graphics and controls, it would fail miserably. It can't compete with modern day games, the majority of people who play MMOs today are simply not interested in those kinds of games. It might develop a small following but would probably go F2P after six months, just like so many other games do today.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
^^^ This! ^^^
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
"Old timers"? I know this has been said a lot here, but simply following what the majority of players are playing today is a sure way to make sure your product fails. Why? Because in order to stay relevant in the future, companies need to be looking forward far beyond what their rabid fans are happy about today. Failure do so will mean one day their product will be abondoned and left for dead, as the masses move on to the next shiny thing that catches their eye.
There's something to be said about listening to the educated and vocal minority. Not the people who complain just to complain, but the players who may know more about the MMO industry as whole because they have a much wider exposure to it than someone who just makes and sells MMO games and drinks their own corporate cool-aid. How many themeparks have become niche games on life-support in recent years? How many have been shut down completely at a fairly young age?
The other thing you fail to notice is that there is plenty of room for different kinds of players. Some people like the hand-held, force fed story and progression of developer made themepark content. Others, like me, prefer to forge our own advanture through a game world, occasionally dabbling in developer made content for fun. Trying to lump people into black and white mindsets like "majority" and "old timers" is a painfully shallow view of the situation.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
No, they're pretty awful. Like, mental abortion game design wise.
Nobody is asking for a perfect MMO, just a decent one.
Man, telling someone to alter their tastes... these kinds of apologists need to go.
Then by all means, continue to complain and dream of your decent game. Just be aware that the majority of players aren't as miserable as the old vets. Some people actually enjoy the current crop of MMOs. Some people never played UO or SWG...in fact MOST haven't, so they are not aware that their current MMOs are souless treadmill garbage games that are just cash grabs from greedy lazy developers.
or theres people like me who played AC, UO, EQ1, meridian, SWG and still find enjoyment from some of the current crop MMOs
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The point is that more and more people are figuring this out and asking for more. There is a trend in the direction of people wanting more out of these games than just themepark content. I've watched it grow daily for the past few years and the posts of people complaining about being bored in *all* of the themeparks are steadily increasing. And no, it's not just the same people posting.
Game developers can pretend they are safe because so many people don't know better today, but we all know here that most of these new themeparks basically fail, especially from their larger business goals. Most of them become niche games with far fewer players than they planned on, and server merges galore.
Look at WoW. Why do so many people still play it? Because why not? The most you will get from the other themeparks is better graphics and same-old gameplay. What's the motivator to change when these games *play* basically the same?
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Read: E-Sports Boom..
MMORPG's went from being games about living in a virtual world to arenas dedicated to "professional" hopefuls who would much rather place numbers over your head in relation to how bad they can beat you at any given time...
So in order to better fit that competitive model, the game has to be strongly based around combat and if it is strongly based around that, it has to be involving enough to keep people entertained or "fun".. Just like common action games such as God of War and Darksiders etc which involve you slaying thousands of enemies throughout the game, if killing them wasn't particularly fun then no one would do it.
The industry has been out of Worlds for so long that it is a lost art to developing giants today, they simply don't know how to do it anymore. Hell I am still AMAZED that Rift had a day/night cycle.. That is one of the smallest things developers can do to increase immersion yet neglect.. Even when WoW came out it actually had SEASONS where the leaves would turn colors and scenery would change accordingly, it was still pretty much a WORLD..
Things have gone progressively worst and I truly think SWTOR was the complete downfall to the trend. Millions of dollars put into a game depicting a UNIVERSE of lore, only to get a streamlined movie of more or less 2% of it all. You really made no choices and the world was completely static.. COMPLETELY.. Absolute fail..
"I enjoy playing EQ. But I remember how much fun it was when no one knew the answers or even the questions."
That's the key imo with enough space and size for there to be many questions and even more answers.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
"It's up to every individual to determine how much truth they can stand."
-approx. Yalom I think. Not gonna look it up.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Yeah well my theory is thus:
The new generation of MMO's has been spawned by the generation of instant gratification. Kids who grew up with smartphones and constantly being told they are special and cannot fail. A generation of people who got trophies weather they won or lost. It's this generation that is programming now. They are catering to their own generation of instant gratification peers. They don't want to work to an end, they want to jump in and be all powerful from the get go. And that mindset and upbringing, in my opinion, is hurting, or changing rather, the landscape of the entire MMO industry.
So there you go, there's my theory if you don't like it..
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Um no. That doesn't even make sense. This generation of games was spawned due to complaints by players of old generations of games and the devs that make todays games, played the old games.
Have to agree here.. Most of the old school players from the EQ days always start a sentence about how they are married with 4 kids and a full time job with religious responsibilities throughout the week and cannot dedicate the time they did back in the EQ , UO days to playing.. So ultimately they actually prefer the new generation and it's "instant gratification" solo style mechanics..
that makes perfect sense. just like your statement makes perfect sense. just like developers using free to play as an excuse to make crappy games and line their pockets with quick cash makes perfect sense..
Most people who "grew up" with smart phones as "kids" are about 16-20 years old right now. They probably aren't programming anything professionally, yet, and they are most definitely not making game design decisions.
Cliff Bleszinksi (he helped create Gears of War) had this to say recently, "Those companies that put these products out? They’re for profit businesses. They exist to produce, market, and ship great games ultimately for one purpose. First, for money, then, for acclaim."
It's that last part that catches my eye. "First, for money..". And that's why we see so many WoW clones, simple themeparks, free to play with microtransactions forced down your throat. Developers have lost their way, they're not about making games anymore, not about creating something amazing or what they dreamed up one lazy afternoon, they're just looking at making money. The business has changed from creating games that make money, to making money by creating games.
Until developers go back to thinking up great games instead of looking at business models and market research, we're not going to see anything but a clone of the previous game that did well. It's why we have so many shooters that play like Call of Duty, or so many MMO's that are just like WoW. It's all just a big cash in.
Big business has crushed creativity, all we get now is what we payed for the last time.